Performance points must go!

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Adding weight is often performed in real racing to add some leveling handicap, though.

i wouldnt mind restrictor plates. it would be fun using the zonda in gt500 competitions

 

[Falango]

Adding or taking away power at your convenience isn't though. There's usually regulations on both.

 

[Vulcao]

Adding weight is often performed in real racing to add some leveling handicap, though.

Oh, really? I've never heard about that. In which type of racing (e.g. NASCAR, Le Mans) does that happen? Anyway, I don't like magically making the car lighter. I don't have much problem on making it heavier.

What about weight balance? Is it possible in real life that you transfer weight from the front to the rear of the car and vice-versa?

 

[Exorcet]

Yeah PP is a good but flawed idea. The older power limit idea was better and provided fair races. PP tends to favour a make or model of car and everyone quickly works it out and you end up racing a fleet of the same cars.

IMO, they were one of the worst ideas in history.

500 hp limit

Car 1, 500 hp/3000 lbs

Car 2 400/1500 lbs/Racing tires/Rear Wing/Race Transmission

PP is vastly superior and needs to stay.

Oh, really? I've never heard about that. In which type of racing (e.g. NASCAR, Le Mans) does that happen? Anyway, I don't like magically making the car lighter. I don't have much problem on making it heavier.

Is it any more magical than buying a weight reduction? There are more than 3 ways to lighten a car (ie weight reduction is a spectrum, not stage I, II, and III. I'd say that quicktune weight alteration is perfectly realistic. Power a bit less so, but it's still pretty good.

 

[FlourescentBlak]

How realistic is GT's idea of a weight reduction anyway? I have never in RL owned a car that is in GT and descided I must make it as light as possible to see.

 

[EiFFeL]

I also hate PP's...

I would just classify the cars by classes like in GT2 Arcade Mode, and make GT mode races based on that (stock cars only). Because I think the point of being so many cars in Gran Turismo is to drive them and feel them like the real thing. Of course there will be a dominant (or two) car in every class, but the difference will not be that much and it's up to you the car you choose... I would also take this for online races.

Per example:
Class S: Ferrari 458 Italia, Merc SLS, Vette ZR-1, Lambo Gallardo & Murcielago, Merc SLR, Audi R8 V10, Nissan GT-R...

Class A: BMW M3 E92, Maserati GranTurismo, Lexus IS-F, Audi R8 V8...

Of course some cars will be better than others, but it is just like reality! If you don't like that, go to tuned car's race, but I think we GTfans love the fact of "feeling like the real car".

For tuned cars, I would not mind some kind of points... But of course not "magically" adding power or weight, but buying parts in GT Auto.

 

[regnar]

Oh, really? I've never heard about that. In which type of racing (e.g. NASCAR, Le Mans) does that happen? Anyway, I don't like magically making the car lighter. I don't have much problem on making it heavier.

What about weight balance? Is it possible in real life that you transfer weight from the front to the rear of the car and vice-versa?

This usually applies to sports car racing , due to the fact of having different types of cars racing each other, there is put in place a form of performance system to equalize the playing field, but every so often certain teams find away to tune cars, giving them a greater advantage over others. Usually if a certain type of car dominates, such as example with the first year of Mustangs (new body style) in 2005 in Grand Am they dominated most races, the next year 2006 the Mustangs had added weight & gear ratio changes to reduce their performance, thus their was less race wins.

Added weight is used typically for penalty's & to keep competition even.

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Though I didn't play it enough to know how balanced it was NFS Shift used a simmilar method to PP and you would just equip your car up to or under the limit.

I really like the idea of PP, Prologue didn't do it right though.

If not PP for online races then how do you balance tuned cars?

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I also hate PP's...

I would just classify the cars by classes like in GT2 Arcade Mode, and make GT mode races based on that (stock cars only). Because I think the point of being so many cars in Gran Turismo is to drive them and feel them like the real thing. Of course there will be a dominant (or two) car in every class, but the difference will not be that much and it's up to you the car you choose... I would also take this for online races.

Per example:
Class S: Ferrari 458 Italia, Merc SLS, Vette ZR-1, Lambo Gallardo & Murcielago, Merc SLR, Audi R8 V10, Nissan GT-R...

Class A: BMW M3 E92, Maserati GranTurismo, Lexus IS-F, Audi R8 V8...

Of course some cars will be better than others, but it is just like reality! If you don't like that, go to tuned car's race, but I think we GTfans love the fact of "feeling like the real car".

For tuned cars, I would not mind some kind of points... But of course not "magically" adding power or weight, but buying parts in GT Auto.

i hope PD does a better job of classifying cars. for example, just because 2 cars have the same amount of horsepower, doesnt mean they perform similiarly

 

[d3br34k5]

What I don't like about the PP system is the R tyres on cars, I always thought this was the cause of a good number of crashes,the added grip meant people were braking far later than they realistically could,so everyone is just diving in.

If I had it my way each car would be locked to it's recommended tyre.So if you were driving the Z06 fresh tyres are N3,worn tyres are N2

Not all are here but it shows how far off R3 tyres are on these cars.
http://i32.tinypic.com/dqlqc6.png

I assume the race admins here at GTP will test and make educated decisions when determining car eligibility for league sanctioned races. With the time GT5 has taken to complete though, Kaz could've created some kind of giant competition matrix.

Anyways, I'll race online under those rules and look forward to seeing a competition replay where a flat black Cavvy with garbage-looking rims take the lead against a contending Acura NSX.

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Heh. Competition matrix. Sounds elaborate.

Yes! Over the last 5 years they had a few guys designing the "Competition Matrix"

I do like the sound of that even if it sounds like a PP system.

 

[d3br34k5]

That's doublespeak, you see. heh heh.

 

[Vulcao]

How realistic is GT's idea of a weight reduction anyway? I have never in RL owned a car that is in GT and descided I must make it as light as possible to see.

Is it any more magical than buying a weight reduction? There are more than 3 ways to lighten a car (ie weight reduction is a spectrum, not stage I, II, and III. I'd say that quicktune weight alteration is perfectly realistic. Power a bit less so, but it's still pretty good.

Well... it is realistic (although I don't like it). But the way they put it in GT5P is a bit weird IMO. You can lighten your car on each race you join, through the quick tune menu. It's easier than changing clothes. I think they should only allow, as SHIRAKAWA Akira said, making the car heavier. If you want to make it lighter, then go to GT Auto and "buy" weight reduction. [EDIT: I see no problem with weight reduction in 3 stages. I'm not a "tuner" IRL, though.]

I believe it's possible to have competitive races without this magical feature, so that everyone can race with their "original" car (not necessarily stock), which they're used to drive.

I remember that Kaz said the host of the race will be able to set his own rules to the race. I guess it also includes the criteria for racers to join, like HP, weight, traction, PP ( who knows?) etc.

 

[niky]

GT5P's tuning menu was basically a shortcut to allow tuning and was nothing like GT4's tuning menu.

Oh, really? I've never heard about that. In which type of racing (e.g. NASCAR, Le Mans) does that happen?

Every single professional racing series has a weight balance rule. Cars that are below the spec weight have to add ballast to meet it. Furthermore, touring car series and other racing series using road-car based vehicles may often implement specific weight handicaps to keep front-running cars from dominating the competition. BMWs usually get these handicaps in mixed FWD/RWD touring car series... and the Nissan GT-R is infamous for accruing more and more weight penalties as a season goes on.

Anyway, I don't like magically making the car lighter. I don't have much problem on making it heavier.

While GT5P's weight tuning menu was grossly oversimplified, it mimics what is possible in real life when you strip parts, remove sound insulation, replace panels with carbon-fiber or fiberglass and replace glass panels with polycarbonate.

What about weight balance? Is it possible in real life that you transfer weight from the front to the rear of the car and vice-versa?

Yes. While there is a minimum weight requirement, many teams build their cars lighter so that they have ballast to move around the car to tune the handling balance.

 

[garybee]

Other than placing severe restrictions on the car you can enter an event with I can't see any other options to preformance points. If you limited an event to production cars and one type of tyre you could then probably get away with power to weight ratio but that's the only way I can see it working. Nothing wrong with having some events limited in this way and others completely open though, isn't that effectively how GT4 was?

Edit: Just seen a screen shot in another thread that shows PP are still in and also that events can have regulations based on many different factors (PP, tyres etc.)

 

[Fizix]

I'd definitely want some kind of limits or system in online mode to keep things fair and balanced but I think its also equally important to ensure there is car variety else it gets a bit boring.

For the main championship mode I'm kind of torn, I like challenging races but once I've completed a championship it can be fun to just mess about.

Also take scenarios where you are trying to make $$$ for your next car purchase/upgrade.

In past GT games I often grabbed a car I knew would perform well on a certain track, tune it up & tweak to the limit and went mad on a race or number of races that would give the most $$$ for the shortest race time I could find. When I find myself having to grind I like the grind to be as effortless and fast as possible.


So I'm a bit torn on the issue, I'd hate to have to fight for first place 100 times in a row to make enough for that GTR race car or whatever, I'd want to coast it as much as possible. Thats where PP in championship mode would annoy me.

 

[EiFFeL]

i hope PD does a better job of classifying cars. for example, just because 2 cars have the same amount of horsepower, doesnt mean they perform similiarly

You mean my classification is bad? I know horsepower is not the only mattering thing... That's why GT-R would be in the same group as Corvette ZR-1 or Mercedes SLR...

I think the top lap time in Nürburgring (or maybe even more than one circuit) could be used to classify the cars

 

[Racin'Jason]

I think Nurburgring testing is fine for the cars, but comparing the cars based on a drivers performance on that length of track is difficult. Maybe compare them on sections of the Ring'.

 

[DeolTheBeast]

PP angered me. I will rejoice at not having a little bar that allows you change power and weight accordingly.

GT is a driving simulator so actually buying the relevant upgrades to make your car better (or worse) seems a better option. (as it has been in the whole series bar gt5p)

Just having a tyre choice limit and a power / drivetrain limiy and obviously nationality limits (e.g. Europe vs Japan) on some races will be fine.

 

[CaptainFederal]

PP angered me. I will rejoice at not having a little bar that allows you change power and weight accordingly.

GT is a driving simulator so actually buying the relevant upgrades to make your car better (or worse) seems a better option. (as it has been in the whole series bar gt5p)

Just having a tyre choice limit and a power / drivetrain limiy and obviously nationality limits (e.g. Europe vs Japan) on some races will be fine.

Yeah, I agree. I feel in the case of say Forza it kills the game a little. You have cars which become leader-board cars and always dominate everywhere cause well people know and it is consistently proven by the performance index.

I look at it this way. As DeolTheBeast put it allow for restrictions. In real life its about that, for example FIA GT4 restrictions? I mean all the cars are indeed competitive in some form or another. I mean the average Weight/Power ratio is what? "3.35" or something or the other. I mean restrictions should be enough. They should also apply online unless you're doing a private room or something.

 

[Emu76]

I really dislike the PP system. The HP cap from GT2 is a much better way of keeping all the competitors at the same level.
Online races should probably have a locked set of tyres, to avoid situations where one car is braking far earlier than another and they end up hitting each other etc.

 

[shirakawaa]

I really dislike the PP system. The HP cap from GT2 is a much better way of keeping all the competitors at the same level.
Online races should probably have a locked set of tyres, to avoid situations where one car is braking far earlier than another and they end up hitting each other etc.

HP cap and minimum weight together, as race restrictions would make very much sense.
Also they would put the ballast settings that were already in GT4 to some use.
(in case, though, this time PD should also add an easy way to find out the car weight balancement - something that one had to figure out).

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Agreed, it would be very nice if PD told you the weight bias instead of having to figure it out via playing or google and hope it's accuratley represented.

 

[CoolColJ]

Drive the car on track to find out - who cares about actual figures, it's how the car handles!

 

[Vulcao]

GT5P's tuning menu was basically a shortcut to allow tuning and was nothing like GT4's tuning menu.

[...]

While GT5P's weight tuning menu was grossly oversimplified, it mimics what is possible in real life when you strip parts, remove sound insulation, replace panels with carbon-fiber or fiberglass and replace glass panels with polycarbonate.

I know it's perfectly possible in real life. I just don't like the way they put it into GT5P. Weight reduction should only be allowed in GT Auto, not in quick tune.

When I used to race in GT5P, everybody used to tune weight and power so that they reach the max PP allowed (800 on that specific race). I never changed weight and power. I remember racing with 697 PP.

I can't explain why weight and power tune bother me. It just does. It looks more real when you do it in GT Auto. Those magical tuning bars really bother me .

 

[blaktek]

Fast tuning of your car's weight is easy, IRL too. Just get your car stripped and light, then add ballast to match stock weight. If we can have two separate ballast entries, the first would allow to approach the event's weight limit, the second used to balance the car itself. If it's not limited to +/- 100 Kg but rather +/- 500 Kg (the - part being equal to the weight you can actually shave off each car).

The PP system is a step in the right direction. It's composing values were not balanced at all, though. But the solution is easy to implement too. PD can take it's most reliable B Spec Bob, and send it for a 10 laps time attack on all tracks, with all cars (stock, S2, or dirt/snow, or R1 for race cars).

Locking the PS3 in a debug mode with no graphics at all (just a DOS like listing of what it's doing) it could take every car on every track for 10 laps in less than a week.

Once they have the data, it's easy to come up with a balanced PP system based on practical car / track performance. So the Ford Focus would be 400PP, the Honda Integra 420PP, and the Citroen C4 380PP.

The same can be applied for tuning parts. Take a car representative of each class, and make Bob race them with every possible combination of parts/settings/tires/...

You have here again data telling what part does what to the lap time, and only have to find a way to implement all this in the PP calculus in an elegant way.

No approximations, no driver induced errors, perfect (almost) PP system that works. This way, the lap time difference with 550PP cars should be within a second or so on a track like Suzuka.

I'm not saying this is what PD did. I just see this a s a way for them to do it. And it's easy to do it all over again if a patch is applied that throws the system in the bin.

 

[finnracer]

The trouble with a performance cap is say it were to be 300bhp for a rwd event for instance everyone competing would have tuned elises, VX220s etc and those with all of the other 300bhp cars would not have much of a chance. Because of this I think their should be weight restrictions as well to keep a balanced grid.

 

[shirakawaa]

Because of this I think their should be weight restrictions as well to keep a balanced grid.

In my opinion:

Minimum weight + maximum power restriction
-- or --
maximum power/weight ratio restriction

It's not exactly the same thing. The first type of restriction would allow very close races, but the second would allow a more diverse starting grid with generally no real all-around winner (lighter cars would go better on twisty sections while heavier, more powerful ones would have better top-end acceleration).

In my opinion there should be both depending on the event.
But in the real racing world restrictions on weight (and other things) are much more commonly used.

 

[analog]

Ofcourse comparing PP points and how they were used in Prologue to the way tuning works ( buying parts, etc. ) in a full GT game is a bit pointless ( meaning the Quick Tune option which should be regarded separate from Performance Points ).
Sure adding horsepower and shedding weight in a menu without buying upgrades in the Tuning Shop isn't in any way accurate but Prologue simply didn't have and wasn't intended to have features such as Tuning Shop, it served mainly as a taster of the final game.
This was just a simple solution offered to have at least the ability to tune the car at all, not even meant to be fully accurate.

Disregarding the limitations of Prologue's Quick Tune for now and to discuss the main aspects, I did like how PP was implemented especially online, below the power/weight/downforce and tyre choice section which did affect the performance points you could fully adjust and set up the car to your liking.
With a certain limitation of points set in an event you could decide yourself which factor you deemed more relevant and useful depending on all sorts of factors ( for example type of car/track and personal driving style ) and finding the perfect balance for yourself by tinkering, experimenting and test-driving which to me was fun in itself.

Some would opt for more grip in corners by adding downforce and better tyres at the loss of power and high speed capability, others would do completely the opposite, or go for a more balanced middle ground ( or completely screw it up ), etc, etc.
And not even mentioning the differences made by changing the aspects not affecting PP.
It's a balancing act, one element limiting the possibilities of other elements, and highly dependant on your personal driving style to work.
Similar in many regards to real life motorsport where it's a sport in itself to find the perfect set-up within regulations.
Simply capping, say horsepower, weight, or tyre choice, etc. would just mean taking away one factor when the other factors of each separate car would make all the difference ( 300hp Elise against 300hp Dodge Charger with fixed tyre choice, etc. on a short twisty circuit would mean that normally the Elise would win by quite a margin ).
Not saying this might be the perfect system but I surely don't object to it returning in GT5 with ofcourse buying "real" parts and adding an amount of ballast perhaps ( after weight reduction stages have been applied ) instead of changing the weight with a slider.

 

[Antonisbob]

I honestly hope PP's are only in GT5P. They probably are though since GT5P doesn't have tuning shops like the previous games and that was a way too alow you to tune your car without the inclusion of them. From what we have seen, the tuning shops will be back (and better than ever) So goodbye PP's.