Performance points must go!

[Dravonic]

I would definitely like the PP system to stay, but as other have mentioned, no quick tune. Sure, there will be, like in prologue, those cars that are just faster than others but as long as PD keep tweaking the PP system, they should arrive at a balanced solution.

If you let PP go, then how do you limit a race? Only if you select the allowed cars yourself, but invariably your solution will be worse than PD's and you'll have a car that is just too damn fast since you can't fine tune what's allowed without a PP system.

The way I see it, it's not perfect, but no doubt better than nothing.

 

[niky]

I know it's perfectly possible in real life. I just don't like the way they put it into GT5P. Weight reduction should only be allowed in GT Auto, not in quick tune.

As analog points out... moving ballast around and adding or removing it is incredibly easy in real life. And we didn't have GT Auto in GT5P.

I can't explain why weight and power tune bother me. It just does. It looks more real when you do it in GT Auto. Those magical tuning bars really bother me .

Likely, it'll be different in GT5.

I'm sad to see it go (if it's gone). It was a very good idea, but the whole system got trashed by the change in tire compounds between specs.

In fact, PP should simply ignore tire compound. You should be given a spec tire compound and a PP system based simply on power-to-weight ratio... and that's it. Of course... that handicaps cars that need staggered tires for best performance... but hopefully GT5 will allow us to change/stagger tire sizes for the same effect.

 

[regnar]

I think part of the problem with Performance Points in Prologue was the limited number of options (quick tune) to tune the car into compliance. With GT5 having the ability to fully tune & add/remove parts would have made the process less of a pain. Really not sure why they have thrown it out & not try to perfect it, assuming it's gone Their is some system needed, but if where going back to GT4 I can live with that.

 

[Exorcet]

I also hate PP's...

I would just classify the cars by classes like in GT2 Arcade Mode, and make GT mode races based on that (stock cars only).

Why intentionally limit the game?

Because I think the point of being so many cars in Gran Turismo is to drive them and feel them like the real thing.

PP does not interfere with this at all.

Of course there will be a dominant (or two) car in every class, but the difference will not be that much

How can you tell?

and it's up to you the car you choose... I would also take this for online races.

You're basically limiting online to a mode where everyone is forced to use the same car to be competitive.

Per example:
Class S: Ferrari 458 Italia, Merc SLS, Vette ZR-1, Lambo Gallardo & Murcielago, Merc SLR, Audi R8 V10, Nissan GT-R...

Class A: BMW M3 E92, Maserati GranTurismo, Lexus IS-F, Audi R8 V8...

If those cars really belong in the same class, PP would ideally lump together. Depending on the options presented in GT5, there's really nothing to be concerned about. Perhaps PP resolution can be specified for online races. Ex, allow cars with 600 +/-10PP, or 800 +/-20 PP, etc. Or have a one make race, or a theme race that only allows certain untuned cars, or etc.

Of course some cars will be better than others, but it is just like reality! If you don't like that, go to tuned car's race, but I think we GTfans love the fact of "feeling like the real car"

Tuned cars are real. PP is as real as your method. It's actually more realistic than your method for a professional/organized race event.

For tuned cars, I would not mind some kind of points... But of course not "magically" adding power or weight, but buying parts in GT Auto.

The difference between Quick Tune (which isn't even PP) and GT Auto is purely illusionary. QT is basically the same code that is used in GT Auto with a smoother interface. You're kind of fooling yourself if you think GT Auto is more realistic. QT is basically like telling a mechanic how you want your car to perform and letting him figure out how to get there.

For the sake of variety, I hope to see part tuning in GT5, but tuning will be lacking if it doesn't give you the flexibility of Quick Tune.






And again, PP is getting mixed up with QT. I think it's borderline ridiculous to want to get rid of PP. It's just necessary. It should be standard in any racing game. QT is basically an interface. Some people want to feel like they are a guy who owns a car so they like to have the interface mimic a parts shop, fine. Other's just want a driving sim, also fine. But PP is not QT, and buying parts isn't really anymore realistic outside of a role playing element. This is completely true for weight as the coding between the two would essentially be the same. Power is more complicated because changing out different parts has different effects, but who knows, QT could easily be simulating changes in fuel flow, compression, etc.

 

[danthespaceman]

I think the PP system takes the fun out of actually finding a car that fits within the regulations. I had a lot of fun in GT4 finding the right car for a race. In GT5P, it was pretty much just pick a car and move the sliders around to get your PPs where they needed to be. I realize it could be a little more in depth with GT auto in GT5, but still, if you're just tuning your car to an arbitrary number, it's not very rewarding.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I think the PP system takes the fun out of actually finding a car that fits within the regulations. I had a lot of fun in GT4 finding the right car for a race. In GT5P, it was pretty much just pick a car and move the sliders around to get your PPs where they needed to be. I realize it could be a little more in depth with GT auto in GT5, but still, if you're just tuning your car to an arbitrary number, it's not very rewarding.

also, its not like it takes any skill if all ur doing is just moving sliders. there should be consequences

 

[EiFFeL]

Exorcet... Ok, we could state the races by PP's, but the point is that I like to drive the cars as stock, with no modifications, and I would like races to be "only stock cars".

Of course, tuning cars have their point and must have their own races too... But what I mean is that I wouldn't like tuned cars with that "quick tuning" in EVERY race in the game...

 

[Antti-san]

I'm all for PP points going hand in hand with in-depth tuning - Forza 2 had a similar system and I thought it worked. But since I haven't been following this topic, has there been any confirmation will PP be back?

 

[niky]

I think the PP system takes the fun out of actually finding a car that fits within the regulations. I had a lot of fun in GT4 finding the right car for a race. In GT5P, it was pretty much just pick a car and move the sliders around to get your PPs where they needed to be. I realize it could be a little more in depth with GT auto in GT5, but still, if you're just tuning your car to an arbitrary number, it's not very rewarding.

Never played a really competitive series with PPs? In real life, there are always a few cars that are better suited to a particular racing series or event than others... and the same was true in GT5P.

also, its not like it takes any skill if all ur doing is just moving sliders. there should be consequences

There's no skill in tuning a long-wheelbase Mazda6 to almost (but not quite) hang with the Integras and Focii? Or in trying, in vain, to find a way to get your Corvette to match the front-running GT-Rs and F430s? I beg to differ.

-

As Exorcet states... the quick-tune system allows you to make many of the same changes you can make in GT Auto... and they're not unrealistic. In fact, modern-day engine-mapping software allows you to make more detailed changes to the power and torque curves, racing suspensions have more levels of adjustability and more adjustable parameters, and you can adjust ballast not only front-rear, but also side-side and at differing heights. All of this has a huge effect on the car.

If anything, I'd slant quick tune and GT tuning in general for not giving you enough adjustability.

-

While I love driving stock cars (ref: Road&Trek articles in the GT4 Race Reports), there's just no way to have a fair race between two different stock cars. Simply, one will always be faster unless you balance their performance in some way.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

I say keep the PP. It keeps you at a limit, if they just throw a HP restriction in your face there's a way to get around it. And PP helped limit this. I say keep them

 

[Exorcet]

I think the PP system takes the fun out of actually finding a car that fits within the regulations. I had a lot of fun in GT4 finding the right car for a race. In GT5P, it was pretty much just pick a car and move the sliders around to get your PPs where they needed to be. I realize it could be a little more in depth with GT auto in GT5, but still, if you're just tuning your car to an arbitrary number, it's not very rewarding.

Well, the right car in GT4 was max power with minimum weight. I really confused to see people like previous GT regulations. They were honestly terrible and unrealistic. PP is both fair and realistic. As for finding the right car, PP doesn't factor out choosing between a 800 PP Ferrari with bone stock chassis and 900 hp or a 800 PP Chevy with wings and race suspension bolted to a stock engine. Out of those, and every car in between, which is better for the 800 PP race?

Exorcet... Ok, we could state the races by PP's, but the point is that I like to drive the cars as stock, with no modifications, and I would like races to be "only stock cars".

Of course, tuning cars have their point and must have their own races too... But what I mean is that I wouldn't like tuned cars with that "quick tuning" in EVERY race in the game...

I love driving cars as stock. I was all over stock races with N3 tires in Prologue. PP doesn't interfere with this at all. The old hp restrictions didn't interfere, so why would PP?

If anything, I'd slant quick tune and GT tuning in general for not giving you enough adjustability.

Agreed. If GT5's tuning is to be taken seriously, it should have adjustability like Quick Tune, be it from a general slider or individual part settings. Any real car can be taken from 10 hp and 3000 lbs to 1000 hp and 1000 lbs (given enough funding and engineering). Parts or sliders, it would be nice if GT5 acknowledged that.

 

[emponator]

Let's say there's a race called 4wd open.

In older GT games it really was open and after building my 3000GT and entering the race,
I noticed that I'm 15 seconds faster in a lap than my opposition. That's not fun either.

Now if there were 4WD open, with a PP recommendation along it (not a restriction)
I could build the car straight to the proper performance level and have a competitive and exciting race.

I wish that every single race in the game would have PP recommendation, and some of them would have PP restriction too.
Makes up for more balanced races without endless trial and error.
+ it's mandatory for online races, or there would be one car "to rule them all"

 

[FlourescentBlak]

+ it's mandatory for online races, or there would be one car "to rule them all"

You mean like the clio?

As mentioned PP is a good idea its just prologue didn't do them right.

Be there PP or general restrictions I welcome the game.

 

[iLex]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the PP system just giving a value to the combination of power/weight/downforce?
Then wouldn't it be more realistic to have a set of restrictions, more than just one number?
I don't know how this works in real racing but it seems weird to say: "Ok, if you add downforce, you'll have to add some weight or lower the power output of your engine."

Say you have:
max. power/weight ratio
max. power
min. weight
tyre restrictions
type: stock/tuned/racecars (the latter also meaning cars with racing modifications)

This would mean cars have their natural downforce in the stock races, while in other sections added wings for downforce are allowed.

Ofcourse for any system to work, the competition should also tune to the maximum of the allowed settings (or recommended settings, to allow for some overhead for people who like to win easily).

let people regulate for themselves. if i want to race a 1500bhp monster in the sunday cup thats my choice i dont want the game interfering.

Well, it could be a 'soft' limit, e.g. If you want to drive a car that is over the restrictions, you won't get a prize car, or something similar. It is not unusual for games to have you work a sweat a bit for rewards...

(This is probably gonna get me a lot of flaming, like the last time I suggested something similar... People love their easy prize cars...)

 

[EiFFeL]

Ok guys I think you changed my point of view

I love driving cars as stock. I was all over stock races with N3 tires in Prologue. PP doesn't interfere with this at all. The old hp restrictions didn't interfere, so why would PP?

You mean, if there is a 500 PP online race, you can choose a 450 PP stock car... That's true, but I would be more confortable if everybody would do the same and don't tune their cars I guess it's just my problem if I want to choose a stock slightly slower car...

Also it's true what you say about PP maybe better than "classes"... In fact classes are only supposed to be 400-500 PP, 500-600 PP (per example), and so on. We can make that by points instead of classes, I guess it's more open to different cars.

While I love driving stock cars (ref: Road&Trek articles in the GT4 Race Reports), there's just no way to have a fair race between two different stock cars. Simply, one will always be faster unless you balance their performance in some way.

Do you really think that...? I've had lots of funny stock car races... Although performance is not EXACTLY the same. In GT5P I used to pick Ford Focus ST while people used to pick Renault Clio and Honda Integra Type R, but I was able to find that races really close I think it's the funniest thing about cars: Impreza VS EVO, Skyline VS NSX, Ferrari VS Lambo, etc... For me it is worse if you just add some performance to balance the PP's... If two cars are close enough, you can let them be...

 

[fade]

I think the clio issue is going to crop up all the time. No matter what way they limit things, after a few weeks most people going to be using the same cars - the best in each category - no matter how it's named or set up. It's like in FIFA when everyone is using Manchester or Barcelona online. Can't be helped.

When I played Project Gotham on-line on 360, you would join a room and people would pick cars, and the host would shout on the mic "oi, we are all picking xxxx type cars, don't use that one" or he would say "ok, everyone in a TVR for this race".

Surprisingly, this worked quite well. But microphones aren't as common on ps3.

Ideally, I think once the host has picked the "PP level" (or whatever) he should be able to go into a car list and cross out any cars he wants to exclude. Or the reverse - tick or approved cars, and people would only be able to pick those cars.

I don't think I've seen something this involved from an on-line racer before, but it's my dream for GT5 or 6. I guess no on line racer has the car choice GT5 has.

 

[peewee737]

Keep the PP or something simular. Especially helpfull if you race against friends. Someone is always better than the other. To keep the races exciting and tight you can adjust the PP after each race. You can for example reduce the PP of the winner. And add for the one in the back. This way everyone will be competetive. More fun I think......

See you online....

 

[analog]

Some cars, the infamous tuned Clio for example, were also popular/obvious choice due to the fact the car selection in Prologue was quite limited.
I can't understand people confuse and can't seem to separate Quick Tune from Performance Points as they worked together in Prologue by necessity ( as Prologue wasn't meant to offer a Tuning Shop ).
In GT5 you will have all the tuning options from previous GT-games ( and hopefully much more ) but I really hope for a system like PP to keep all sorts of cars competing against each other within an amount of points set to keep it fair and close.

It's just a levelling system, which allows freedom to choose what you find important or deem useful depending on car/track/driving style and other factors.
Instead of having fixed regulations whereby each car more or less is forced to be set up the same way ( or forced to be the same type of car ) you can have the same cars set up and behaving completely different or all sorts of different cars with somewhat the same performance levels.
I wouldn't mind some races with stock-cars or fixed regulations but I do hope the PP system ( in some form ) is kept, it's not just a balancing act by trial and error, it's a simple but clever system which stimulates a clever thoughtful way to use it.

 

[Exorcet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the PP system just giving a value to the combination of power/weight/downforce?
Then wouldn't it be more realistic to have a set of restrictions, more than just one number?
I don't know how this works in real racing but it seems weird to say: "Ok, if you add downforce, you'll have to add some weight or lower the power output of your engine."

Say you have:
max. power/weight ratio
max. power
min. weight
tyre restrictions
type: stock/tuned/racecars (the latter also meaning cars with racing modifications)

This would mean cars have their natural downforce in the stock races, while in other sections added wings for downforce are allowed.

It's not generally more realistic to have multiple restrictions. It's all up to whoever makes the rules for a race. For races based off of real events in GT (ALMS), there is no need for specific restrictions, just limit the eligible cars to those able to enter the real race (Corvette C6R). For fantasy/custom online races, PP is perfectly acceptable.

I would prefer to see specific restrictions options like wing/no wing, etc in combination with PP though, for the sake of variety.

Ok guys I think you changed my point of view


You mean, if there is a 500 PP online race, you can choose a 450 PP stock car... That's true, but I would be more confortable if everybody would do the same and don't tune their cars I guess it's just my problem if I want to choose a stock slightly slower car...

No, I mean that having a PP system didn't stop PD from putting stock car races in the game. There were plenty of online races that didn't allow Quick Tune and only allowed a few set of cars. I was constantly annoyed by the fact that Arcade physics online got the "Supercar" race while Professional didn't. But anyway, the point is having PP in the game doesn't mean it has to be used everywhere.

 

[EiFFeL]

No, I mean that having a PP system didn't stop PD from putting stock car races in the game. There were plenty of online races that didn't allow Quick Tune and only allowed a few set of cars. I was constantly annoyed by the fact that Arcade physics online got the "Supercar" race while Professional didn't. But anyway, the point is having PP in the game doesn't mean it has to be used everywhere.

Now I agree to you It's ok if it's not used everywhere. And I was also annoyed by that, since I prefer that kind of races "supercars, sportcars", and so, rather than the Professional Physics PP's races. In fact, I used to race in the "slow car" class, because Standard physics weren't as obvious in slower cars.

 

[EiFFeL]

Finally... It looks like PP's went off, didn't they? Have you seen anything about them in the leaked news?

 

[phhsdiego]

Finally... It looks like PP's went off, didn't they? Have you seen anything about them in the leaked news?

Please someone confirm this!
I hate the PPs!

 

[chimuel]

The PPs seem too arbitrary to me. HP caps, Tyre caps and possibly aero caps would be simpler for me to understand.