Philly's car thread | Time for new tires - Post #128

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Reventón;3399004
Why on earth would a new intake throw a CEL unless someone purposely put it on wrong? :confused:

Some don't have a MAF in them I think.
 
Some don't have a MAF in them I think.

Ehrm, then the car wouldn't run right full stop.

It would be the MAF getting wrong/weird/odd signals and the computer not knowing what to do.
 
Ehrm, then the car wouldn't run right full stop.

It would be the MAF getting wrong/weird/odd signals and the computer not knowing what to do.

Yup. Exactly what he said. And new cars can be very picky about that info.
 
Thank you, that saved me explaining :) Philly could even break his MAF himself for all we know. My point was just that you're more likely to get a CEL than to notice a real difference in power with some cone filter :) Yeah, you might feel something, but it seems like he thought it was the end-all be-all of his car..
 
Wait so we are not allowed to rip on other brands or people and we have to have information to back it up or we get infractions? Is that a new rule or are you guys just deciding to enforce it whenever you feel like it? Whatever the case I think about half or more of GTP is doomed.

And to my knowledge a CAI throws a light more often then not when installed because of all the reasons mentioned. I'm not sure if you can just have the code cleared though.
 
Philly, how are services and maintaining costs over there? Is it really so expensive to get your GTI fixed, or is it expensive in general to fix a VW in the US?

Norway has already rated VW's services as the worst amonst all brands, and the costs leave a lot to be desired. We love old VWs though, the reliability seems to be way better on them, as most brands seem to suffer from this. But still, 60 000 miles? I'm very surprised you're so frustrated about it already after 60 000 miles, because that is not the distance a car should run before experiencing problems. Or others around there are torturing the GTI, or it really is a bunch of crap incase reliability. Too bad it is, because it seems you have enjoyed this car very much uptill now, leaving all the reliability issues aside.
 
Philly, how are services and maintaining costs over there? Is it really so expensive to get your GTI fixed, or is it expensive in general to fix a VW in the US?

Much of this depends on the dealer, the kind of car, and a bunch of other normal variables you find with any other brand. Having dealt with brands of German, American and Japanese origin, by far, the VWs have been the most-expensive to maintain on a yearly basis. You're looking at $70-75 per hour service costs, not to mention the rather high part prices (a bit more than your typical Japanese part price, certainly more than what we pay for new GM and Ford bits). Older VWs tend to be a bit more "easy" on the wallet, but it also depends on the newer model as well.
 
Well, I took the car in this morning. VW should be telling me what's wrong with the car this afternoon when the run the diagnostic. If it's a critical issue, my family and I will have to worry about how to deal with only one car for a week and a half until loaners are available. If not, I'll probably go pick it up then and drive it until VW gets the parts in.

Although, I do wonder... Is it bad if I know most of the people at my Volkswagen dealer?

No, my bother has two vans and they've been broken down since I can remember but that's just due to his laziness. And I shouldn't really say it's pathetic, that's a little harsh. It just kinda bad.

It is a bit sad. But I guess there is no such thing as a perfect car, is there? ;)

It really depends on the VW, and how its been treated. My previous Jetta blew out due to some insane transmission problem that was apparently common on a lot of the MKIII cars. Despite my problems (mostly with electrical system), the car ran well most of the time. I got a good deal on the car, it retained its resale value, but the VW curse ended up getting me. Still, making it 175K isn't half bad. Especially for a VW. We've had four separate VWs in our family: 1993 Fox, 1996 Jetta Wolfsburg, 1999 New Beetle, and a 2002 Cabrio (which we still have). The problems were of the typical sort, electric issues in the wet, power window issues with the newer models, etc. The Jetta and the Cabrio stand out as the most-reliable based on my own memory, the New Beetle suffering from a lot of the early build quality issues.

I imagine it also doesn't help my cause that the car is a 2006, which is the first year the car was sold in the States. I know it was on sale a little earlier in Europe, but the engine still was pretty new when mine was built. So they wouldn't have had too many data points to find trouble spots with.

It always seems to depend on the model, where it was built, who drove it, how the stars were lined up, and what my alphabet soup looked like the day before. VW people know what they're getting into, and they're willing to accept the problems as they come (usually at a significant price). If it weren't for my health problems, and the prospect of my job ending (which it did), I likely would have bought a third VW instead of my Celica. So far, the Toyota has been trouble-free (despite one massive repair)... But its not the same as my Volkswagens. Maybe when my finances get back on their feet, I'll dabble in the VWs again.

But, mark my words: I'll never own an Audi.

I'm in a similar boat. I can't afford to shovel tons of money at a VW right now, but I love them so surely I'll be back. And I probably wouldn't ever be seen in an Audi either. Although if for some reason I wound up in the upper end of the market, Audi does make some pretty awesome cars that I wouldn't mind buying. The RS6 and TT-RS come to mind...

Thank you, that saved me explaining :) Philly could even break his MAF himself for all we know. My point was just that you're more likely to get a CEL than to notice a real difference in power with some cone filter :) Yeah, you might feel something, but it seems like he thought it was the end-all be-all of his car..

I know the intake wouldn't be the thing to tip the GTI over the edge and totally kill it, but you do have to be cautious putting any kind of performance modifications on a car that already is experiencing reliability troubles.

And to my knowledge a CAI throws a light more often then not when installed because of all the reasons mentioned. I'm not sure if you can just have the code cleared though.

If it does do that, it would probably be a good idea to skip the CAI then. Because I'm going to be needing my CEL for when the next issue does pop up... :nervous:

Philly, how are services and maintaining costs over there? Is it really so expensive to get your GTI fixed, or is it expensive in general to fix a VW in the US?

I'm still under warranty, so the fixes will be free. But once you get past that, it's still going to be a German car with reliability issues, so I imagine it can't be cheap with the rates you see for Benzes and BMWs. But it will depend on the car. I am under the impression that with all these new electronic gizmos in cars, repair costs in general will be going up. And the GTI is pretty fancy, so it'll be pretty costly.

Norway has already rated VW's services as the worst amonst all brands, and the costs leave a lot to be desired. We love old VWs though, the reliability seems to be way better on them, as most brands seem to suffer from this. But still, 60 000 miles? I'm very surprised you're so frustrated about it already after 60 000 miles, because that is not the distance a car should run before experiencing problems. Or others around there are torturing the GTI, or it really is a bunch of crap incase reliability. Too bad it is, because it seems you have enjoyed this car very much uptill now, leaving all the reliability issues aside.

I doubt that most people see the same kinds of problems that I do with the GTI. They still are going to be less reliable than cars from other brands though. It's still no Jaguar though. And it's not now just starting to break down a lot. It's been having problems more or less out of the box. But you are right that the GTI is a very enjoyable car. And I'm sure socomplayer2, the other MKV owner on here can second that.
 
Well, the first half is true. His car has had repeated issues since purchase, and continue to has them despite repeated warranty work.

The second half is clearly sarcasm, every VW ever built clearly has not fallen apart as we can see them driving around on the road. Though I could probably dig up pages and pages of recalls, reliability issues, and so on. One of those ironic half truths. I guess I'll just put the word "most" or "many" or some other subjective term in there.

Correct, I should have left the first half out of that quote. That half is a fact.
About it being sarcasm, you have the need to post it way too often around this section. Therefore I have the impression it's more than just sarcasm.

Oh come on...even Philly is joking about it breaking down and is the entire reason that he wants to get rid of the thing. I hardly see you posting around here, so maybe you haven't noticed that that's some friendly harassment about VWs and a few other brands that go back and forth.

I read a lot here in this section and I'm aware of the friendly 'rivalries'. I don't judge on this particular post only. It's the continuous repetition of his statement that triggered me.

The second part? Friendly jest that VWs generally have poorer reliability. That's pretty common knowledge. He shouldn't have to back that up with evidence.

North American VW's seem to have poorer reliability. I can say in Europe they score average, not poor. So that negates his statement. It's also more than just a friendly jest, because in a lot of cases when VW is mentioned, I've seen him questioning the reliability without any need. Combined with the fact he stated he strongly dislikes VW, it gives me the impression he's just maligning VW. This violates the aup. Hence my warning.

RE: Hugo on Azure's VW Comments

Honestly, its not a big deal. The VW people here have come to expect it not only from Cody, but from others as well. We already know and understand that VWs are generally unreliable, cost a bajillion dollars to maintain properly, and end up being buying options that can be a partial diagnosis for insanity - because we've already experienced it. Not everyone buys into the idea of a VW, as a (former?) Toyota guy, I wouldn't expect Cody to. But, for those of us that do, we're happy to talk to people about it and make casual recommendations when possible.

Perhaps we need to create a thread called VW Owners Anonymous?

A joke is fine. Only Azuremen carries it too far with the same 'joke' every time. If you repeat it too often, it loses credibility. Therefore I believe it goes beyond sarcasm. I have no problem at all with Azuremen disliking VW. We all have our own preferences. Only instead of showing his aversion to VW by violating the aup, he could also try to be creative and humorous when he feels the need to show this aversion. That would show more respect to the people who do like VW and helps to prevent new members copying such an attitude.
 
I don't see the issue. I do find his constant jests against VW amusing; he's ragging on them, yes, but not in a way that is... Ehh... How to put it...

It's not like he's going about saying "VWs are crap because I said and nobody can ever show me a positive point about them and I'm never wrong". Well, it is to you apparently but it's not what the rest of us see.
 
Correct, I should have left the first half out of that quote. That half is a fact.
About it being sarcasm, you have the need to post it way too often around this section. Therefore I have the impression it's more than just sarcasm.

Well, yeah, it is still sarcasm. An obviously false statement is generally sarcasm, or exaggeration to make a point.

I read a lot here in this section and I'm aware of the friendly 'rivalries'. I don't judge on this particular post only. It's the continuous repetition of his statement that triggered me.

So what about the continuous repetition by people that Toyota makes soul less crap boxes? You can find entire threads for that, I believe.

North American VW's seem to have poorer reliability. I can say in Europe they score average, not poor. So that negates his statement. It's also more than just a friendly jest, because in a lot of cases when VW is mentioned, I've seen him questioning the reliability without any need. Combined with the fact he stated he strongly dislikes VW, it gives me the impression he's just maligning VW. This violates the aup. Hence my warning.

So they still have less than average reliability globally if you add everything up, so my continually statements that they are less than average for reliability holds. You can also see times where I have defended VW, then tossed in my typical "but its a VW" at the end of it. It is called a running joke, just like how like M5Power can't/couldn't drive stick, MistaX would put your car on rail road tracks, and so on.

You can also issue a warning privately. Without my personal info in it, which isn't an issue now thanks to Duke editing your post. You should probably go give TVC a warning in the "Overrated car thread" for his repeated bashing of BMW based on incorrect facts. Of course, you are a moderator for the OLR stuff, in particular -
GT5:P Race Events, On-Line Racing, Weekly Race Series sections.

As for the matter of violating the AUP, this is the only statement I could find where maligning something could be considered a violation.

AUP
You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone or any group. There will be no racially, sexually or physically abusive or inciteful language tolerated. Any abusive comments made by members will be removed by the Moderating staff and the user issued with a warning or banned, as deemed appropriate by the Moderating staff. No personal attacks on other members will be tolerated. If you question someone, it must be done in a reasonable and semi-friendly manner. Violating this rule will be grounds for suspension and/or permanent removal from the board.

Now, you can call VW a "group" (which probably refers to members and groups on GTP, no global corporations) and then refer to me constantly questioning their reliability as abusive or hateful. Of course, you then would have to moderate all abusive comments about EA, Microsoft, government, and so on.

A joke is fine. Only Azuremen carries it too far with the same 'joke' every time. If you repeat it too often, it loses credibility. Therefore I believe it goes beyond sarcasm. I have no problem at all with Azuremen disliking VW. We all have our own preferences. Only instead of showing his aversion to VW by violating the aup, he could also try to be creative and humorous when he feels the need to show this aversion. That would show more respect to the people who do like VW and helps to prevent new members copying such an attitude.

You are in the only person in this thread so far that feels I carry that joke too far. As stated, my irrational statements about VW are backed by some fact, carried to an extreme for the sake of exaggeration and sarcasm. Though statements like "Well, it might just burst into flames" are based on actually seeing some catch on fire because of the wiring.
 
would probably be a good idea to skip the CAI then. Because I'm going to be needing my CEL for when the next issue does pop up... :nervous:
If you're that worried, check a bunch of VW forums on the issue of intakes throwing CEL's, or ask them on the issue. I'm sure many of them will be able to give you that advice you're looking for. Getting info from here is fine, but I'm positive you'd be better informed of CAIs & CELs on your GTI on a specific forum. :)
 
And to my knowledge a CAI throws a light more often then not when installed because of all the reasons mentioned. I'm not sure if you can just have the code cleared though.

Depends entirely on the design of the CAI. Most MAF sensors are sensitive to changes in intake tubing. The issue with CAIs is that the construction and design can interfere with MAF function. Air coming at high velocity around a bend, for example, will flow faster on one side, which may cause a rich/lean reading at the MAF. Or the high velocity of air entering the MAF (since it has time to build up momentum, coming through a long tube instead of straight into the MAF from the filter) can cause turbulence that affects MAF readings.

Other CAIs have improper diameter tubes for the MAF sensor. A cast Plastic or aluminum MAF housing will always have the same diameter. A MAF adapter made out of a standard stainless steel tube might be slightly deformed in the cutting process or manufacturing process.

Getting the wrong CAI, understandably, is bad. There are some common Subaru intakes that are known to lean out and blow up engines. But if the CAI uses the stock MAF housing and (as Reventon suggests) dyno and real-world tests by users show no ill effects in terms of altered Air/Fuel ratios and CELs, they should be safe.

One trick to maintaining MAF-reading consistency I've come upon on the Mazda forums... add chicken wire or steel mesh right before the MAF. (be sure to attach it firmly!). This slows down and evens out the air-flow enough to give you consistent MAF readings.

I don't see the issue. I do find his constant jests against VW amusing; he's ragging on them, yes, but not in a way that is... Ehh... How to put it...

Poverty-ish? :lol: (runs away...)

-

Awww... c'mon guys... let's lighten up...
 
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I have the diagnosis back. Something's up with the turbo and the intake. I'll be sure to ask for more detailed explanations of exactly what's wrong.

On the plus side, I'll be getting the car back tomorrow. That made me pretty happy considering I thought I was going to be without a car for quite a long time.

Reventón;3399666
If you're that worried, check a bunch of VW forums on the issue of intakes throwing CEL's, or ask them on the issue. I'm sure many of them will be able to give you that advice you're looking for. Getting info from here is fine, but I'm positive you'd be better informed of CAIs & CELs on your GTI on a specific forum. :)

It's off to VWVortex then, I guess. :nervous: They'll definitely have information about how VWs react to intakes. Although asking around here has definitely made me more aware of some of the issues that can pop up. 👍

Depends entirely on the design of the CAI. Most MAF sensors are sensitive to changes in intake tubing. The issue with CAIs is that the construction and design can interfere with MAF function. Air coming at high velocity around a bend, for example, will flow faster on one side, which may cause a rich/lean reading at the MAF. Or the high velocity of air entering the MAF (since it has time to build up momentum, coming through a long tube instead of straight into the MAF from the filter) can cause turbulence that affects MAF readings.

Other CAIs have improper diameter tubes for the MAF sensor. A cast Plastic or aluminum MAF housing will always have the same diameter. A MAF adapter made out of a standard stainless steel tube might be slightly deformed in the cutting process or manufacturing process.

Getting the wrong CAI, understandably, is bad. There are some common Subaru intakes that are known to lean out and blow up engines. But if the CAI uses the stock MAF housing and (as Reventon suggests) dyno and real-world tests by users show no ill effects in terms of altered Air/Fuel ratios and CELs, they should be safe.

One trick to maintaining MAF-reading consistency I've come upon on the Mazda forums... add chicken wire or steel mesh right before the MAF. (be sure to attach it firmly!). This slows down and evens out the air-flow enough to give you consistent MAF readings.

That all makes sense. My friend has the little mesh in his CAI on the Saab. Neither him nor my buddy with a CAI on his Outback have experienced any problems, so it doesn't sound like the highest risk modification out there.

Although it looks like the CAI is looking pretty unlikely at this point.
 
Philly I made a confusing avatar in your honour.
 
So the GTI came back home today. What was wrong? The intake flap motor was faulty and a diaphragm in the turbo recirculation valve was torn.

So now the throttle response is amazing and the car will do anything you want it to in any gear at any speed. Basically, the car feels pretty magical now, definitely the amazing vehicle I remember it being when we first got it.
 
The intake flap motor was faulty
So Volkswagen is trying to tell me that making the electronic throttle system, installing it at the factory, then having to order a new one at the dealer, shipping it to the dealer, and reinstalling it at the dealer is cheaper than...a throttle cable.

Right.

Sorry VW, but my car's manufacturer gave it a throttle cable like cars have had for almost a century now, and it still behaves just the way it did 148,000 miles ago.

Oh, and I'm not just isolating VW. I'm talking about any and every car company today who invests in all this technology that nobody ever needed before, and just for the hell of it. Innovation is only innovation if it's actually better, and my opinion is that relying on a little microchip to make my decision for me is certainly not better than actually making my own decision about when i want more go.
 
Oh, and I'm not just isolating VW. I'm talking about any and every car company today who invests in all this technology that nobody ever needed before, and just for the hell of it. Innovation is only innovation if it's actually better, and my opinion is that relying on a little microchip to make my decision for me is certainly not better than actually making my own decision about when i want more go.


I.e., 2006+ Civics. :grumpy:
 
Oh, and I'm not just isolating VW. I'm talking about any and every car company today who invests in all this technology that nobody ever needed before, and just for the hell of it. Innovation is only innovation if it's actually better, and my opinion is that relying on a little microchip to make my decision for me is certainly not better than actually making my own decision about when i want more go.

I'm pretty confident that it's all a plot to make sure only the manufacturer can do maintenance work. They are certainly going to lose money in cases like this, but it'll probably pay off in the long run when all that service money goes to them.

Plus, VW didn't lose any money on this job. We have a third party warranty that pays VW to do all the work.
 
Azuremen, see pm.
 
Azuremen, see pm.

I fail to see the need to tell me this on a forum with a pop-up notice for PM's and e-mail notification.

As for the topic, the over complication of devices is generally a result of wanting to lock out 3rd party groups and have gimmicks to sell to people. Or at least that is how I feel.
 
Oh, and I'm not just isolating VW. I'm talking about any and every car company today who invests in all this technology that nobody ever needed before, and just for the hell of it.

It's not just for the hell of it. Electronic throttles allow for more sophisticated traction and stability control programs. With the computer having last say over the throttle opening, interventions can be far more subtle and faster than just having control over spark and fuel. It's my understanding that's why manufacturers started using them in the first place.


M
 
They can also be used to fine-tune emissions, even at the (sometimes) cost of drivability. Numerous cars get complaints of "throttle hang" because the PCM software won't allow you to slam the throttle shut, because that results in a momentary super-rich condition. Keeping the throttle open a little allows air in to burn that bit of otherwise-unburned fuel.
 
It's not just for the hell of it. Electronic throttles allow for more sophisticated traction and stability control programs. With the computer having last say over the throttle opening, interventions can be far more subtle and faster than just having control over spark and fuel. It's my understanding that's why manufacturers started using them in the first place.


M
Maybe it's the young and eager driver in me, but having an "off" switch for the stability control still isn't good enough for me. I can't figure out why they need all that stuff anyway when cars have been and still are tuned from the factory for safe but boring whopper understeer.

They can also be used to fine-tune emissions, even at the (sometimes) cost of drivability. Numerous cars get complaints of "throttle hang" because the PCM software won't allow you to slam the throttle shut, because that results in a momentary super-rich condition. Keeping the throttle open a little allows air in to burn that bit of otherwise-unburned fuel.
So there's a legit reason for that? Makes sense. Well dag nabbit, now I have to cross one more thing off my list of things to complain about.
 
I can't figure out why they need all that stuff anyway when cars have been and still are tuned from the factory for safe but boring whopper understeer.

People like this:

n1254450366_30388029_5066526.jpg


Try to drive the car fast, get a bit overconfident, damn-near kill themselves in the process. I still ROFL with every story he tells me about his autocross runs, because they almost always end up with him destroying his ZX2.
 
Electronic throttles make a lot of sense in terms of fuel economy and emissions. A well programmed one, like what Mazda uses on the MX5 and the Mazda6, will give you similar-to-throttle-cable response while delivering more linear acceleration and torque ramp-up (simply... at low rpms, full throttle will not always give you the most power... an electronic throttle will adjust its angle accordingly to provide you the most power possible when you floor the gas...) than old-style throttles.

Unfortunately, as with everything electrical in the engine bay... (the EGR-motor, variable valve actuators and solenoids, ignition coils, crank position sensors, cam position sensors, MAF, MAP, electric power steering, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseum)... this will be vulnerable to heat damage over time. It's a headache when the car is relatively new-ish, but the price and availability of these parts becomes better as they get older.

If you want absolute reliability, nothing beats an old pre-combustion injection diesel with no turbo and timing gears instead of a chain or belt. Those things will run close to forever with nothing but the barest minimum of maintenance, and they'll run happily on a dead battery and a dying alternator.
 
They can also be used to fine-tune emissions, even at the (sometimes) cost of drivability. Numerous cars get complaints of "throttle hang" because the PCM software won't allow you to slam the throttle shut, because that results in a momentary super-rich condition. Keeping the throttle open a little allows air in to burn that bit of otherwise-unburned fuel.

2006+ Civic: Check.


"Rev hang" as we call it, is annoying as hell and makes it hard to shift smoothly in the first couple gears. If you get the revs to 3500-4000 or higher, it takes a good full second for it to begin dropping when you push in the clutch. The only way to be halfway smooth and do it in reasonable time is to let the clutch drag the motor down.

And then on the flipside, the computer dulls down the throttle input entirely too much when you're just barely moving. I can stomp the gas and let off immediately and the revs will maybe go up to 2k. I'd guess Honda did that to make the throttle less sensitive for taking off.


Ya know, all of these little issues go away when you're beating on the thing. :lol: Nice, crisp shifts and just about normal throttle response
 
"Rev hang" as we call it, is annoying as hell and makes it hard to shift smoothly in the first couple gears. If you get the revs to 3500-4000 or higher, it takes a good full second for it to begin dropping when you push in the clutch. The only way to be halfway smooth and do it in reasonable time is to let the clutch drag the motor down.

Would this be why it takes forever and a half for the GTI to shift out of first if you aren't really accelerating hard? Under normal acceleration, I tap the "up" paddle to upshift and the car continues for maybe 300-500 more RPM up the tach before it actually shifts.
 
... because they almost always end up with him destroying his ZX2.

He WHAT!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!? (Remind me to never autocross mine... until after I get that understeer out of its system.) :lol:

On electronic throttles: Wouldn't some people who are, shall we say, less educated about the inner workings of a car, wonder why their car isn't accelerating the way it should? Let me give you an (probably horrid) example.

Car goes to take off from a stoplight where there's a bit of loose gravel. TCS kicks in, and the car doesn't accelerate the way it normally does, even if the driver pushes the pedal more. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, what if it all becomes TOO seamless?
 
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