Physics and Damage

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Hi...I'm new to the forums and after doing some searches, I didn't really find a whole lot of posts about the improved driving physics and damage engine in GT4... I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction on the boards for any discussion about this. I'm really interested in finding out if the game engines are going to be like the physics of games like Nascar 2003 or Driv3r, with more realtime damage, or if it's going to be less intensive.
 
No, damage will not be in GT4, due to the car amount, and that most cars would probably be totaled by most crashes in GT4. Plus the time it would take to make a damage model for every of the 500+ cars would take a long time. Driving physics will be improved. It will feel even more real than in GT3...with things such as weather conditions coming into effect. O by the way, Welcome to GT Planet.
 
Weather conditions? What weather conditions? I've neard nothing of this ... the mere thought of it excites me. Tell me more!
 
That's what I thought. But I wanted to make sure I wasn't just missing out on some really cool secret information.
 
No, it was just an early rumor that it would be included.

Personally, I'd love to see them license Naughty Dog's amazing sky/ambient renderer so that you'd have smooth, radiant sunrise/day/sunset/night transitions like Jak & Daxter.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
No, it was just an early rumor that it would be included.

Personally, I'd love to see them license Naughty Dog's amazing sky/ambient renderer so that you'd have smooth, radiant sunrise/day/sunset/night transitions like Jak & Daxter.
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Oh dude, that would rock. It's not really even a "condition" that they would have to calculate either. The issue of a moving light source could cause problems with their 3D engine though.


What I'm wanting is a game that has snow / rain falling with puddles and such. That would be pretty neat. And maybe marbles in the corners. Fun stuff.
 
I know they're totally different games, but games like Driv3r seem to be using weather, dynamic lighting, and realtime shadowcasting so it definitely can be done with the new 3D engines. Granted, that game has significantly fewer cars (70 or so) and probably less general detail than GT4 will have, but for the kind of game it is i'm pretty impressed with the realism they're going for. I'm a little upset that there's going to be no damage in GT4, but I understand the reasoning. I suppose I'll just have to get both games to satisfy the quality racing and my need to crash things. :)

some good clips of the lighting/graphics on the mainsite if you want to check it out:
www.driv3r.com
 
Interesting. I've not gotten any really possitive reviews for Driv3r yet. What are its highlights / lowlights? What console do you play it on?

edit: scratch that - I was thinking of older versions of Driver. 3 isn't out until June (:
 
Yeah it's not out for a few months yet...but the first Driver was a pretty advanced game for it's time...taking the more driving/chase approach to the GTA mission style game. awesome physics for a game of that type... Driver 2 was cool too, but too big for the playstation to handle. I'm hoping this one takes advantage of the better consoles out now since it's coming out for the Xbox and the PS2 and the PC as well....you can tell i've been watching this game for a little while now :) ...
 
Well, that's cool. Hopefully we'll see some good stuff in this one. Which console do you plan to play it on? I would naturally assume PS2, but most people would think that about me as well just because I play GT3. But I also have an XBox and I've been really impressed with some of the multi-console games and how much better they perform on XBox.
 
I don't know what you think, but as good as Gran Turismo is, I think the Gran Turismo series will only get better. Some think GT4 is as perfect as anything, just awaiting the final release date. When I hear of physics being mentioned, I don't mean that college class where you had that old professor and that cutie that always smiled at you when your eyes were locked on her. The physics of GT. Physics change as weather goes into play. When it comes to rain, there are three instances:
(1) dry track, dry grass
(2) dried track, wet grass
(3) wet track, wet grass

In each situation, driving on a certain surface during/after precipitation had fallen changes the physics of a car's handling. This is very elementary, I know. If you've played GT3 and had a chance to check out Special Stage Route 5 Wet and SSR5 Wet 2 (why don't they just call it "Reverse" instead of "II?" If a track has different alternative routes, that would be a great consideration as well), you know that handling characteristics differ greatly from SSR5 Dry, if you will. A bit of physics when it comes to car control is, front wheels meet rear wheels of another car = spin. A loss of just enough speed when going off course = spin + dirt/grass kicked up. So far, Gran Turismo 4 is looking to make the best possible effort of combining racing prowess with your grassroots cars, all the way to the playmaking big timers of the competitive scene. Wow, I actually used "Playmaker" to describe a race car!

Now, the damage. If anyone know how to mangle and twist cars, it is either NASCAR or rally racing. While car manufacturers would be angry if their products were used so cars can be fed to a monster truck, busted up by car jackers, tires slashed out by a love-torn girlfriend... you get the idea. The only damage I'd want to see is cars being flipped around and spun out like crazy, you know, like NFS2:SE. Maybe a "Rush" style damage system would make things interesting while having a tough day at the office. Now, I mean when you have your car have its a$$ handed to it by five other rivals, the damage you can start with is blown tires. I don't think tires CAN be blown out, because I tried racing a Mazda 787B with super softs and ran a test session. The tire gauge would show that the tires were red, and spinouts were more often. I say that maybe tires can fall off of a car, forcing to you either pit, or try to win the race with three, two, or what the hell- ONE FREAKIN' TIRE! Sparkin' like the 4th of July! I say that it is what you'd have to do to force minor damage. You can also have headlights not work after taking too many hits. And if it was one game that did car damage to perfection, it is "Jarrett and LaBonte: Stock Car Racing" for the PS1. You don't have that game? Get it used or right off the shelf. See what GT4 COULD be like if car damage was enabled. Meanwhile, I'm going to play me a game. So take care and uh... happy (early) Valentine's Day!
 
Diffrent weather was a "Rumor" of such right from the begining, but as ive heard from some people and a pic or two, it looks like snow will be involved in this game, and I belive KY did say that wet tracks are making a come back and there will be more of them, I stand corrected but im thinking maybe Wet tracks, a Snow covered track for rally, dont know if the track will have snow or just the scenery... Just ecpect wet tracks for now and maybe more of them and possibly snow track, and the physics are supposed to change for each one but we'll never know until the game comes out..
 
When i said "weather conditions", i didn't actually mean like thunderstorms or snow....sry about that. I did here that things such as wind in higher elevations, and different surfaces (obviously) will change the way the car drives.
 
Originally posted by RacingFreak2k3
No, damage will not be in GT4, due to the car amount, and that most cars would probably be totaled by most crashes in GT4. Plus the time it would take to make a damage model for every of the 500+ cars would take a long time. Driving physics will be improved. It will feel even more real than in GT3...with things such as weather conditions coming into effect. O by the way, Welcome to GT Planet.
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The amount of cars in GT4 isn't the reason for damage, damage is not in GT4 due to most manufactures not allowing it, some do some don't, unless all of them permit damage there really is no point for some cars to have it and some not, that would suck. AFAIK making a damage model for a car is not that hard and doesn't change much between models, it mainly cosist of moving ceratain verticis(sp?) around wich PD would be able to do.how longs it been since GT3 came out? 3 years? Apparently PD have been making GT4 since then, im sure 500 cars can be given a damage model in 3 years.
 
Besides, like I used to quote in my sig, Yamagauchi-san said:"The problem with damage modelling is that maybe 80% of the crashes in GT3 would cause the car to fall into pieces maybe 2 inches big."

People complain enough about how long the Enduros and 20-lappers are now. Could you imagine the whingefest after getting 80-odd laps into the R246 enduro, and having a momentary lapse of concentration put the car out of commission?
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
Besides, like I used to quote in my sig, Yamagauchi-san said:"The problem with damage modelling is that maybe 80% of the crashes in GT3 would cause the car to fall into pieces maybe 2 inches big."

People complain enough about how long the Enduros and 20-lappers are now. Could you imagine the whingefest after getting 80-odd laps into the R246 enduro, and having a momentary lapse of concentration put the car out of commission?
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I can see it now, im burning down towards the final turn and them BOOM, ramed into the wall by a dumb GT3 AI car and my race is over :banghead: .
 
Originally posted by HsV_CoUpE
The amount of cars in GT4 isn't the reason for damage, damage is not in GT4 due to most manufactures not allowing it, some do some don't, unless all of them permit damage there really is no point for some cars to have it and some not, that would suck. AFAIK making a damage model for a car is not that hard and doesn't change much between models, it mainly cosist of moving ceratain verticis(sp?) around wich PD would be able to do.how longs it been since GT3 came out? 3 years? Apparently PD have been making GT4 since then, im sure 500 cars can be given a damage model in 3 years.
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Yes i do know that most manufacturers didn't want damage....just forgot to put that. I guess you are right about the damage model though...probably wouldn't be too hard to develop.
 
would be great to play during a thunderstorm, lol... But i dont know if it will actually snow or rain, but i belive we'll just see wet tracks and maybe snowy tracks, true the manufacturers didnt want damage which sucks but doesn mean PD couldnt add the physics to a banged up car.. I dont mind the visual end of things but if the physics were right thats all that matters, and about 3 years they might be able to but then again its remaking 500+ cars, remaking the tracks, redoing all the sound work, a reworked engines, physics etc.. etc... would it have been enough time, maybe maybe not depends how long it took them to do things, dont forget you'll have to bang up every single part of a car at least maybe 4 levels, (scratched, small dents, medium dents, large dents), and you have to do this for each door (2 door - 4 door cars), hood, front bumper, back bumper, truck door, maybe insheilds, and dont forget this is for 500+ cars, it seems easy but sound very hard, Im no expert at modeling but to me thats alote of man hours to do, and you know PD they want it perfect, not a half fast job, but thats all visual, does it suck that we dont get to see it yes it does alot but i could care less, like I said if the have the physics right then its all good... its taken them 3+ years so far so I know I wont be disapointed with the final product..
 
I honestly believe the wet tracks in GT4 will be done the same as the ones in GT3. I seriously doubt there will be a way to turn on / off wet for each track. But it would be cool! Mud on the rallies would be the best (:

Snow on rallies would be pretty cool too. I'm already looking forward to leaves on the tarmac races like I've seen in the Concept releases of GT.
 
no damage =( sorry, cause the developers cant get the ok from the car companies. Makes sense when you think about it. Hey BMW, can we destroy your car so that it looks like crap?
 
People post images of it on the Internet all the time. What difference does a game make?

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I honestly believe it has more to do with the effort put into creating such a damage modeling scheme for that large of a collection of cars and the fact most people would be annoyed by it if it were done well enough to be realistic - which is what Neon Duke was saying.
 
No damage because of the manufacturers? That's funny, so how do games like pgr2 get damage when they have loads of manufacturers...I think it's time constraints, plus, most crashes in GT WOULD kill anything but a tank. :)
 
That makes sense. I forgot that the cars in GT4 are mostly licensed for use unlike Driv3r so the manufacturers have something invested in it. I suppose it's much easier to blow up a car that sort of looks like a Ferrari than an officially licensed one...probably saves the devs alot of headaches...Plus, the way I drive, most of my races would be over before they even started if damage was really part of the game... I think it would still be a nice option to toggle just for having a higher level of challenge/risk to add to the mix of an already great game.
 
They really need to bump up there rally mode for Gran Turismo 4. I wanna see my car with some mud on it, I wanna see some mud flying into the crowd and not evaporating into the sky!
 
PGR2 has damage because 1, Theres less cars to pay for, 2, because the damage isn't realistic the manufacturers arn't as bothered as they would be if the cars were done how KY would like, 3, there are certain cars in the GT games that would almost certainly not be given a licence to damage and in case your wondering, Ferrari don't care about damage so don't say yeah but the Enzo in PGR2 gets it ect.
 
Before saying "but project gothem has damage" you have to remember for a damage model to work in GT you need every car to be aligable to have damage. Unless PD have been lieing to us for along time, then the licencing is the issue.
 
Whether or not the Manufacturers said yes/no, the PS2 can't handle what KY would want to do with the car damage. Each car would have to have individual parts, e.g. detachable doors/wings(fenders)/wheels etc... along with deformation which with GT4 quality models it would very easily increase the number of polies per car by a large amount to keep the same quality. As has also been said, it would also require alot more work per car, each car probably would take atleast twice as long to create with damage, let alone coding/testing a realistic damage model.

Basically its either lowering GT4's graphics & implementing damage, or waiting for the PS3. But I wouldn't hold your breath, I'd imagine PD would simply go for the best looking graphics & physics ever without sacrificing power for damage. I mean even without damage, look at the crash physics in previous GT's... its a joke, so I'd imagine a realistic driving system is far more important to PD. :odd:

Bottomline imo, if you want good crash damage play another game, if you want a realistic driving model with hundreds of cars & a great career mode play GT :)
 
Just adding my bit about damage, adding damage doesn't neccessarily mean visual damage. GT2 had car damage implemented in it, and everyone I know who played GT2 never ever turned it on, it was a hassle, an annoyance and just not realistic. I think it would be too hard to implement damage in a way that would allow you to enjoy the game and be that much more realistic.
Im not sure, but I think I read somewhere that PD weren't happy with how damage was implemented in GT2, so they left it out of GT3. Maybe they've improved their damage system though, who knows....
 

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