Physics changes in January Content Update

[ImaRobot]

Also look at popularity of those 'drive a race car days', its not witchcraft driving a car, but it take amazing skill and commitment to be the very best, i can play tennis pretty well but i'm not Andy Murray , i can ride a bike but i'm not Chris Froome etc etc

Exactly my point. Just because someone makes something look easy, doesn't mean it is. Something that I'm not sure how you haven't taken in, if you yourself posted.

 

[Nielsen]

@dopedog has a point. Many cars would lift-off oversteer at really low speeds before the January update. Throttle control was necessary in order to tackle most hairpins without losing the rear tires. It would happen without making any mistakes at all. It didn't feel real, especially not in low-powered cars. I don't think the change is due to improved grip though, but rather a general adjustment made to the physics in the update.

 

[ImaRobot]

@dopedog has a point. Many cars would lift-off oversteer at really low speeds before the January update. Throttle control was necessary in order to tackle most hairpins without losing the rear tires. It would happen without making any mistakes at all. It didn't feel real, especially not in low-powered cars. I don't think the change is due to improved grip though, but rather a general adjustment made to the physics in the update.

Hey may have had a point, but it seems more of an exaggeration then anything. To compare every day, normally regulated, speed-limited driving conditions of every day drivers, to that of a racing game, as if it has anything in common was a bit of a stretch.

However, that is why I also mention it may be an experience thing. Going off what @Demetrius 81 posted in the other thread, he is also using sim steering. Every time I watch his videos on the XBL feed, his steering is exact and precise. Same for @Ialyrn. The change is working for the better for everyone it seems, though.

 

[dopedog]

Hey may have had a point, but it seems more of an exaggeration then anything. To compare every day, normally regulated, speed-limited driving conditions of every day drivers, to that of a racing game, as if it has anything in common was a bit of a stretch.

However, that is why I also mention it may be an experience thing. Going off what @Demetrius 81 posted in the other thread, he is also using sim steering. Every time I watch his videos on the XBL feed, his steering is exact and precise. Same for @Ialyrn. The change is working for the better for everyone it seems, though.

You read it wrong, i said and its clear that on FORZA 6 before Jan patch i was finding the bog standard hatchbacks were lift off over steering at anything over 20 mph... THAT IS WRONG. I have done track days, raced cars, raced karts etc etc and driven on roads on sorted cars and rubbish cars like hire cars! (fasted cars ever) I only ever lift off over steered on a round about in damp and i could smell the diesel in the air hence slippy but i still didn't actually crash (was in a V6 Alfa GTV FWD with quiafe LSD). Bone dry surface the tyres should cope pretty well, hell they charge enough for them..
I can see the adverts now "Michelin.....use our tyres and have snap oversteer around the simplest of corners.."

Now the racing cars i talked about separately......

Now people have different opinions and i am learning that rarely does an internet argument end well or with either party changing their view.. so end of.
My view is that no way are the greatest engineering mega minds in F1 or GT racing setting out with a brief to make the cars impossible to drive.. Of course in any sport you get the best and drivers are no different, but no one is making cars these days with a purpose of making them hard to drive, that dosen't mean to extract the very best out of the machine you don't need to be a special driver, but what it means is at points in the F1 season teams like Mercedes can get the drivers and cars going at 80% when others are pushing 100% but getting no where.

In a computer game context people can play Forza 6 and be record breakers others can be slower but still able to drive the cars around the corners.. it doesnt have to be 'alien can complete a lap without skidding off' it will be more like they can just lap quicker..

Anyway, peace.

 

[ImaRobot]

You read it wrong, i said and its clear that on FORZA 6 before Jan patch i was finding the bog standard hatchbacks were lift off over steering at anything over 20 mph... THAT IS WRONG. I have done track days, raced cars, raced karts etc etc and driven on roads on sorted cars and rubbish cars like hire cars! (fasted cars ever) I only ever lift off over steered on a round about in damp and i could smell the diesel in the air hence slippy but i still didn't actually crash (was in a V6 Alfa GTV FWD with quiafe LSD). Bone dry surface the tyres should cope pretty well, hell they charge enough for them..
I can see the adverts now "Michelin.....use our tyres and have snap oversteer around the simplest of corners.."

No I didn't read it wrong, I understood exactly what you said. I'm just saying it was a bit of a stretch, and over exaggerated. That's also why I specifically mentioned experience with the game, and fluid modulated inputs are absolutely necessary, even more so when in Simulation steering. Either way, lift off oversteer is a common plague for FWD vehicles, but I'm not so sure that simulation steering has anything to do with that.

Question though, are you talking about modified vehicles, or just purely stock cars? LSD settings in the game are a bit over the top, which causes a lot of lift off oversteer in most FWD vehicles. It can be alleviated easily by staying slightly on the throttle around a turn, rather than treating the throttle like an off/on switch.

With that said, I'm wondering if the differentials where tweaked a bit in the patch, causing cars to be more driveable. I'll have to test this out later.

My view is that no way are the greatest engineering mega minds in F1 or GT racing setting out with a brief to make the cars impossible to drive.. Of course in any sport you get the best and drivers are no different, but no one is making cars these days with a purpose of making them hard to drive, that dosen't mean to extract the very best out of the machine you don't need to be a special driver, but what it means is at points in the F1 season teams like Mercedes can get the drivers and cars going at 80% when others are pushing 100% but getting no where.

I never said they are making the cars hard to drive, you assumed that on your own. I'm just saying that you don't seem to be giving credit to the sport, as if these cars are supposed to be a easy to just get into them and drive them how they're supposed to be driven. You in fact do have to be a "special driver" to race in F1, the forces alone that the body is feeling is not something that the average, everyday driver can just jump into and be able to get it easily, no matter how good you think the car is supposed to handle. You need to be mentally and physically prepared, not only that, but you have to at least have experience. Do not compare these to everyday cars. Do not think because a professional driver can do it, that you can too.

You're making it seem like it's an easy thing, when It's not that easy of a thing to just jump into, like you're implying.

In a computer game context people can play Forza 6 and be record breakers others can be slower but still able to drive the cars around the corners.. it doesnt have to be 'alien can complete a lap without skidding off' it will be more like they can just lap quicker..

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this.

Your post is kind of all over the place and structured oddly, so I'm not sure I'm getting your full message.

 

[Ialyrn]

@dopedog @ImaRobot @Nielsen

The problem here with all this lift-off oversteer talk on a video game, is just that. Because this is a video game we lose a lot of feedback that we get while driving a real car, such as the feeling through the seat, and other feedback we do not get in a racing game. Then there is also the fear factor to take into account, or lack there off I should say. Again, and because this is a video game we are talking about here. We are free to push the cars harder than we would dare in the real world. Even your real world track experience does not take that into consideration. End of the day, in real life there is no reset button. In a racing game however, we get an unlimited amount of chances.

As for the hatch backs (and other cars) have too much lift-off oversteer prior to the January content update, that is actually a bit of a fallacy. I have driven a lot of the cars in Forza pre patch 100% bone stock, and that includes the race cars, RWD road cars, AWD road cars, and FWD road cars.

Myself and ImaRobot where involved in a massive thread over on the FM.net forums regarding it, back when FM6 released, and we spent a lot of time testing the cars people said had this problem. And you know what we found? That there was nothing wrong with them. For us they was perfectly controllable, and the rears only stepped out when we made a daft mistake. It might be worth a read

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst42861_Almost-all-cars-oversteering.aspx?=

We imparted a lot of advice within that thread to help people having issues, and even others added other advice, or backed up our findings after trying it out.

Since the January update has dropped, I have not noticed any increase in grip at all. It is how it was pre-update. But this makes sense however, as it was not the tire model changed in the update. It was the "angular velocity under specific conditions", to which T10 stated it would be "most noticeable for drifters and tuners who prefer to use a wheel.". And is connected to the cars, most likely the steering.

The fact that people are finding the grip levels are better, is most likely down to a placebo effect.

 

[dopedog]

No I didn't read it wrong, I understood exactly what you said. I'm just saying it was a bit of a stretch, and over exaggerated. That's also why I specifically mentioned experience with the game, and fluid modulated inputs are absolutely necessary, even more so when in Simulation steering. Either way, lift off oversteer is a common plague for FWD vehicles, but I'm not so sure that simulation steering has anything to do with that.

Question though, are you talking about modified vehicles, or just purely stock cars? LSD settings in the game are a bit over the top, which causes a lot of lift off oversteer in most FWD vehicles. It can be alleviated easily by staying slightly on the throttle around a turn, rather than treating the throttle like an off/on switch.

With that said, I'm wondering if the differentials where tweaked a bit in the patch, causing cars to be more driveable. I'll have to test this out later.


I never said they are making the cars hard to drive, you assumed that on your own. I'm just saying that you don't seem to be giving credit to the sport, as if these cars are supposed to be a easy to just get into them and drive them how they're supposed to be driven. You in fact do have to be a "special driver" to race in F1, the forces alone that the body is feeling is not something that the average, everyday driver can just jump into and be able to get it easily, no matter how good you think the car is supposed to handle. You need to be mentally and physically prepared, not only that, but you have to at least have experience. Do not compare these to everyday cars. Do not think because a professional driver can do it, that you can too.

You're making it seem like it's an easy thing, when It's not that easy of a thing to just jump into, like you're implying.


I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this.

Your post is kind of all over the place and structured oddly, so I'm not sure I'm getting your full message.

Your difficult and I sense your few steps away from either labeling me a troll or taking more digs at the way i structure a post on a computer game forum.....

Simply racing cars are developed to be easy to drive as much as possible. Why do GT3 cars have driver AIDS? Could the drivers drive them without the AIDS on, most certainly so, but is the driver AIDS to make it easier? Or is it to mkae it harder to drive??

And look if people weren't pushing to get racing cars to be easier to drive then why would we of bothered? Why not just still be racing in cars that look like the Lotus 49? What is big wings, massive down force and big fat slicks if not to make things easier? Its all relative of course.
i know a lot of computer game players can't cope with this but hey. This is where SMS and pcARS got it right at least until patch 7 that is...

And there have been many F1 drivers that don't deserve the seat they are sat in and your nuts to suggest otherwise or you don't follow F1 closely..

 

[ImaRobot]

Your difficult and I sense your few steps away from either labeling me a troll or taking more digs at the way i structure a post on a computer game forum.....

No, I'm not. You're treating me with enough respect, so I'll do the same. I posted that because I didn't full understand what you're saying, and because of that I wanted to note that I'm not sure if I'm getting your post in the way you intend, in hopes that you would try to explain what that meant.

Simply racing cars are developed to be easy to drive as much as possible. Why do GT3 cars have driver AIDS? Could the drivers drive them without the AIDS on, most certainly so, but is the driver AIDS to make it easier? Or is it to mkae it harder to drive??

Because they are designed to handle good, doesn't mean that anyone can get in and all of a sudden be a race car driver. That was my point.

And there have been many F1 drivers that don't deserve the seat they are sat in and your nuts to suggest otherwise or you don't follow F1 closely..

I never suggested otherwise, but this just proves my point fully. Not everyone can just jump into a race car and be good at it, like you've implied.

If you can answer a question though, are you talking about modified vehicles, or stock vehicles? If you swap out the differential, always be sure to change the settings. The default race diff settings are absolutely horrible, and it's usually set for massive amounts of lift-off oversteer.

 

[Nielsen]

@dopedog @ImaRobot @Nielsen

The problem here with all this lift-off oversteer talk on a video game, is just that. Because this is a video game we lose a lot of feedback that we get while driving a real car, such as the feeling through the seat, and other feedback we do not get in a racing game. Then there is also the fear factor to take into account, or lack there off I should say. Again, and because this is a video game we are talking about here. We are free to push the cars harder than we would dare in the real world. Even your real world track experience does not take that into consideration. End of the day, in real life there is no reset button. In a racing game however, we get an unlimited amount of chances.

That is something you've brought up a few times in the past and you're right.

As for the hatch backs (and other cars) have too much lift-off oversteer prior to the January content update, that is actually a bit of a fallacy. I have driven a lot of the cars in Forza pre patch 100% bone stock, and that includes the race cars, RWD road cars, AWD road cars, and FWD road cars.

Myself and ImaRobot where involved in a massive thread over on the FM.net forums regarding it, back when FM6 released, and we spent a lot of time testing the cars people said had this problem. And you know what we found? That there was nothing wrong with them. For us they was perfectly controllable, and the rears only stepped out when we made a daft mistake. It might be worth a read

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst42861_Almost-all-cars-oversteering.aspx?=

We imparted a lot of advice within that thread to help people having issues, and even others added other advice, or backed up our findings after trying it out.

Too much lift-off oversteer or not prior to latest update, many cars do not exhibit this trait as much after said update. I think the Toyota Supra (stock) is a good example of this. Months ago I repeatedly noticed how this car would oversteer badly off-throttle whenever entering the slightly banked Aremberg corner at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Controlled braking upon corner entry, appropriate entry speed, steady throttle through corner, and gentle steering input were factors I found to significantly reduce the risk of imbalance, including the severity of lift-off oversteer. These things required practice, and the fact that simulation steering wasn't very intuitive to learn, at least not in its very twitchy state at the time, didn't make things easier to master. I eventually dealt with it by anticipating most "daft mistakes" I could think of without performing any tuning adjustments. Still, I felt that there was no way a front-engined RWD car like that was supposed to be so demanding to drive smoothly, even if lifting off mid-corner is something one usually wants to avoid, especially in banked corners.

Guess what? The Toyota Supra is less demanding after the January update, and I haven't changed anything on the car, nor my assists settings. The car feels more believable to me and any lift-off oversteer it ever demonstrated at Aremberg is greatly reduced now. Meanwhile, there are other cars I'm now questioning the realism of, such as rear-engined RWD cars not experiencing lift-off oversteer at all (Alpine A110), not to mention the extreme measures it takes to make the rear tires spin on specific RWD cars (Ferrari 512 TR).

I have another example to compare before and after the January update. Ferrari 430 in the big hairpin at Yas Marina, as showcased in the FM6 demo. Back when the demo was our only access to the game, people discussed why this particular car without assists would lose its rear tires off-throttle while cutting the apex of the aforementioned hairpin. Some people argued it was due to the reduced grip caused by night temperature while others were drawing attention to the importance of entry speed, cornering speed, throttle control, and overall balance. When the full game released I decided to recreate the same scenario on the daytime version of Yas Marina. I made sure all assists were off and took great care in how I approached and entered the hairpin. The stock Ferrari 430 I used for the test still lost its rear tires off-throttle halfway through the hairpin. Same car, same track conditions, and same settings after the January update? The car doesn't lift-off oversteer to an extent that even remotely compares to how bad it was before the update.

Since the January update has dropped, I have not noticed any increase in grip at all. It is how it was pre-update. But this makes sense however, as it was not the tire model changed in the update. It was the "angular velocity under specific conditions", to which T10 stated it would be "most noticeable for drifters and tuners who prefer to use a wheel.". And is connected to the cars, most likely the steering.

Neither have I noticed any change in grip, as implied in my previous post. I find it interesting that the patch notes refer to the adjustment to angular velocity as a subtle change being most noticeable for wheel users. I'm using a controller pad (simulation steering) and I'm feeling a tangible difference with it.

The fact that people are finding the grip levels are better, is most likely down to a placebo effect.

Maybe it's the adjustment to angular velocity that make some people believe that grip levels have been improved? The placebo effect is an unjustified belief that something has changed, but that's hardly the case here.

 

[dopedog]

No, I'm not. You're treating me with enough respect, so I'll do the same. I posted that because I didn't full understand what you're saying, and because of that I wanted to note that I'm not sure if I'm getting your post in the way you intend, in hopes that you would try to explain what that meant.


Because they are designed to handle good, doesn't mean that anyone can get in and all of a sudden be a race car driver. That was my point.


I never suggested otherwise, but this just proves my point fully. Not everyone can just jump into a race car and be good at it, like you've implied.

If you can answer a question though, are you talking about modified vehicles, or stock vehicles? If you swap out the differential, always be sure to change the settings. The default race diff settings are absolutely horrible, and it's usually set for massive amounts of lift-off oversteer.

OK my point about F1 is that people can drive them, but to be the very best or even pretty good in race trim and a full season is where it takes extra skill etc.
Look i can play tennis, i can play football, in some respects i'm good at football but get me on a pitch with the pros and i'll soon wither away or get my leg busted.
But its not like if i went onto a football pitch i would suddenly be falling over the ball and such like and the ball wouldn't feel like a ball but a lump of lead.
I can drive a car, i know this fully well, i can drive on tracks i can change gears i can heal and toe, I can drive a car! So would i get in to a racing car and drive to MY limit, yes i can, could i drive to the limit of an F1 car, most likely nope.
There is alot of guys out there doing Sunday League football, fat blokes, small blokes, i play against bloke that smoke 3 fags before the match and one at half time!
Its all relative but if you think suddenly getting into a racing car means people who can drive cars and low level racing would suddenly be like learning to drive a helicopter your actually wrong.
They do F1 experience days. Look how easy modern hyper cars are now to drive.
I have a race license but due to funds i don't currently race, that's money and time stopping me not my fear of driving a car, that license could get me into all sorts of race cars if i won the lottery, hey i could be a BTCC driver if i won 10 million, GT3 driver etc etc.. OK i'd never win a race or win championship but i'd be a 'racing driver'...look at Nick Foster BTCC, Martin Depper BTCC etc theres loads of BTCC drivers over the years who are there cause they have the money to be there but not the skill, good on them, but they can still 'drive' the cars just worse than the rest.

I leave it as this, i have the confidence that i could get into a GT3 car with pre warmed tyres for example and do a lap around say Donington (driven it loads in real life) and if i drove to MY limit i could get around the track without dying.
Where i difference with me to say a pro would be that he/she is faster, smoother and would make me look rubbish...
I think people need to be a bit more confident in driving as its not hard to drive but its hard to drive WELL and FAST and RACE.

 

[Ialyrn]

@dopedog Regardless of your real world real life experience with cars and actually been on track, it means diddly squat when it comes to playing forza or any simulation based racing game. As I stated in my last post, which you have clearly ignored. You are playing it on a controller pad, or even an FFB wheel. Which incurs a massive loss of the feedback that we get while driving a real car. We have a more restricted view, we dont feel what we feel through the seat. We do not have the g-forces impacting us either. And then there is the whole fear factor thing to take into consideration. As I pointed out in my last post, there is absolutely no risk to our health when racing in a virtual setting. As such we all push harder in a virtual setting than we would in real life.

What all this means in the grand scheme of things, is that there is a massive disconnect between real life and a virtual setting. And you need to get out of the mindset of "but I can do this in real life, so I should be able to do it in a game". It just does not work like that. If you want to be good at any racing game, even the likes of iRacing and Assetto Corsa. You have to forget about your real life experience, push it right out of your mind. And treat it for what it is, a video game.

 

[dopedog]

@dopedog Regardless of your real world real life experience with cars and actually been on track, it means diddly squat when it comes to playing forza or any simulation based racing game. As I stated in my last post, which you have clearly ignored. You are playing it on a controller pad, or even an FFB wheel. Which incurs a massive loss of the feedback that we get while driving a real car. We have a more restricted view, we dont feel what we feel through the seat. We do not have the g-forces impacting us either. And then there is the whole fear factor thing to take into consideration. As I pointed out in my last post, there is absolutely no risk to our health when racing in a virtual setting. As such we all push harder in a virtual setting than we would in real life.

What all this means in the grand scheme of things, is that there is a massive disconnect between real life and a virtual setting. And you need to get out of the mindset of "but I can do this in real life, so I should be able to do it in a game". It just does not work like that. If you want to be good at any racing game, even the likes of iRacing and Assetto Corsa. You have to forget about your real life experience, push it right out of your mind. And treat it for what it is, a video game.

I agree, hence why my 8 year old nephew can play Forza and PCars.
I play computer driving games as i love cars and racing and its great fun to have this at home for pleasure especially as its not easy to get to track days or cheap to race.
But i'm not one of those types who compares lap times on a game to real life and thinks it means anything.
A game is a game and you can learn to play a game same as you can learn to get good at Tetris.

 

[ImaRobot]

OK my point about F1 is that people can drive them, but to be the very best or even pretty good in race trim and a full season is where it takes extra skill etc.
Look i can play tennis, i can play football, in some respects i'm good at football but get me on a pitch with the pros and i'll soon wither away or get my leg busted.
But its not like if i went onto a football pitch i would suddenly be falling over the ball and such like and the ball wouldn't feel like a ball but a lump of lead.
I can drive a car, i know this fully well, i can drive on tracks i can change gears i can heal and toe, I can drive a car! So would i get in to a racing car and drive to MY limit, yes i can, could i drive to the limit of an F1 car, most likely nope.
There is alot of guys out there doing Sunday League football, fat blokes, small blokes, i play against bloke that smoke 3 fags before the match and one at half time!
Its all relative but if you think suddenly getting into a racing car means people who can drive cars and low level racing would suddenly be like learning to drive a helicopter your actually wrong.
They do F1 experience days. Look how easy modern hyper cars are now to drive.
I have a race license but due to funds i don't currently race, that's money and time stopping me not my fear of driving a car, that license could get me into all sorts of race cars if i won the lottery, hey i could be a BTCC driver if i won 10 million, GT3 driver etc etc.. OK i'd never win a race or win championship but i'd be a 'racing driver'...look at Nick Foster BTCC, Martin Depper BTCC etc theres loads of BTCC drivers over the years who are there cause they have the money to be there but not the skill, good on them, but they can still 'drive' the cars just worse than the rest.
,
I leave it as this, i have the confidence that i could get into a GT3 car with pre warmed tyres for example and do a lap around say Donington (driven it loads in real life) and if i drove to MY limit i could get around the track without dying.
Where i difference with me to say a pro would be that he/she is faster, smoother and would make me look rubbish...
I think people need to be a bit more confident in driving as its not hard to drive but its hard to drive WELL and FAST and RACE.

Being able to play tennis but not as good as the pros is hardly the same as being able to get into a race car, but not perform like the pros. The two are not a good comparison at all, as one is as easy as just picking up a ball and hitting it. The other takes knoweldge and experience BEFORE you even jump into it. You still aren't giving credit where credit is due. Just because race cars are supposed to handle good doesn't mean any average Joe can jump in and all of a sudden know what they're doing.


You're just proving my point that saying that you'd be a horrible driver, but you still be classified by definition as one. That is my point. You can't just jump in and think you're the best, or that it's easy, because even you acknowledge that it's not.

Yeah, maybe you with your apparent Racing experience can get into one and get it going, but you have experience, what I was talking about is you are saying anyone can, when that's definitely not the case.

While you say its like driving on ice, I don't agree. Which car was it that was like that?

 

[dopedog]

Being able to play tennis but not as good as the pros is hardly the same as being able to get into a race car, but not perform like the pros. The two are not a good comparison at all, as one is as easy as just picking up a ball and hitting it. The other takes knoweldge and experience BEFORE you even jump into it. You still aren't giving credit where credit is due. Just because race cars are supposed to handle good doesn't mean any average Joe can jump in and all of a sudden know what they're doing.


You're just proving my point that saying that you'd be a horrible driver, but you still be classified by definition as one. That is my point. You can't just jump in and think you're the best, or that it's easy, because even you acknowledge that it's not.

Yeah, maybe you with your apparent Racing experience can get into one and get it going, but you have experience, what I was talking about is you are saying anyone can, when that's definitely not the case.

While you say its like driving on ice, I don't agree. Which car was it that was like that?

I'd argue a bad racing driver can be made to look better by being in the best car where as a bad tennis play is a bad tennis player...

All i said was its not that hard to drive a car that i could spin 180 around a 30mph corner.
Do you drive in real life? Is it really that hard driving a car? Its clearly not i have been doing it since i was about 10 years old and legally since i was 17.
Being a very good racing driver isn't easy, no, but i have never suggested it is.

Anyway Forza 6 since Jan update is awesome fun, feels like i could get nearly as much from it as Forza 4... i'm all kinds of happy and have even got the season pass in thanks to Turn 10..

 

[Ialyrn]

Too much lift-off oversteer or not prior to latest update, many cars do not exhibit this trait as much after said update. I think the Toyota Supra (stock) is a good example of this. Months ago I repeatedly noticed how this car would oversteer badly off-throttle whenever entering the slightly banked Aremberg corner at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Controlled braking upon corner entry, appropriate entry speed, steady throttle through corner, and gentle steering input were factors I found to significantly reduce the risk of imbalance, including the severity of lift-off oversteer. These things required practice, and the fact that simulation steering wasn't very intuitive to learn, at least not in its very twitchy state at the time, didn't make things easier to master. I eventually dealt with it by anticipating most "daft mistakes" I could think of without performing any tuning adjustments. Still, I felt that there was no way a front-engined RWD car like that was supposed to be so demanding to drive smoothly, even if lifting off mid-corner is something one usually wants to avoid, especially in banked corners.

Guess what? The Toyota Supra is less demanding after the January update, and I haven't changed anything on the car, nor my assists settings. The car feels more believable to me and any lift-off oversteer it ever demonstrated at Aremberg is greatly reduced now. Meanwhile, there are other cars I'm now questioning the realism of, such as rear-engined RWD cars not experiencing lift-off oversteer at all (Alpine A110), not to mention the extreme measures it takes to make the rear tires spin on specific RWD cars (Ferrari 512 TR).

I have a stock supra in my FM6 garage, and not once did it feel like that to me before the January update. I have had the car in there since the day the FM6 ultimate edition unlocked. But then this is the same for any car that apparently had this "lift-off" issue. I never recorded footage for the Supra, as you are the first person I have seen complain of the issue with that particular car. Though I do have pre-patch footage for some of the other cars people say suffered with this issue, such as the F458 Speciale.

F458 speciale G920 wheel:


F458 Speciale Xbox one gamepad:


Another car people said they had issues with pre-update, is the Nissan 370z. Driving with the X1 gamepad:


And there are other cars, such as the LaFerrari and P1 that people complained had this issue. Cars to which I again drove myself stock, and to which again I did not suffer with driving at all. The videos for the runs are also on my youtube page. Even the Noble was complained about for having this lift off issue, and there is a video on my channel for that car as well.

I have had people say that the issue is only their while using TCS/STM, and the reason I don't get the issue is because I do not use those driver assists. The fact of the matter is, not using them would only exacerbate the issue more. As they are their to help people who need it to control the cars better.

I have even had people accuse me of using the driver aids, and that is the only reason I can drive the cars in the game.

Both @ImaRobot and @SlipZtrEm (hope you don't mind me tagging you both) are on my xbox live friends list, and I am sure they can tell you that I do not use them.

And then when I want to cut loose and lark about, I can do things like this in stock or modified cars:

Stock 370z inertia drifting (foot brake initiations and Scandinavian flicks):


Drift tuned S13 inertia drifting:

I'd argue a bad racing driver can be made to look better by being in the best car where as a bad tennis play is a bad tennis player...

It doesn't work like that at all. You cant take someone who is bad a racing a car, put them into the best car for that racing series, and then be the best driver there ever was. Just like how in Forza a leaderboard tune on a car doesn't make a bad forza player good. You are either good or you are not.

 

[dopedog]

So Nico Roseburg is the 2nd best driver in F1.... really?

Nico is good and close to Lewis but is he better than Seb? Alonso? hell Button? Bottas? Max?

If you read what i put is said "a bad racing driver can be made to look better" not "win everything"

A driver at the back in a bad car stick them in the best car they will maybe push higher up the grid to say 15th 10th etc..

Bruno Senna was always at the back in the old HRT in F1 qualified last or 2nd to last... then he replaced i think Grojean in Renault for Spa and quailfied in 7th... because why?

 

[ImaRobot]

I'd argue a bad racing driver can be made to look better by being in the best car where as a bad tennis play is a bad tennis player...

I'd argue that they'd both be noticeably bad. However, we probably won't be agreeing on this anytime soon.

All i said was its not that hard to drive a car that i could spin 180 around a 30mph corner.
Do you drive in real life? Is it really that hard driving a car? Its clearly not i have been doing it since i was about 10 years old and legally since i was 17.
Being a very good racing driver isn't easy, no, but i have never suggested it is.

See, and that is why I am discussing it with you, because I do drive in real life and it's not hard, and neither is the game. I've not come across this "ice driving" as you're portraying it.

You implied that it's easy-peasy to just jump into a race car and get it. That's where I disagree.

Quick question; did you ever go about to getting your wheel all set-up? I have not used the wheels in game, so if that is what you're using, that is where our differences might be. @Ialyrn is wheel and pad user though, and I'd be willing to bet she'd agree that she hasn't been driving on ice either.

 

[dopedog]

I'd argue that they'd both be noticeably bad. However, we probably won't be agreeing on this anytime soon.


See, and that is why I am discussing it with you, because I do drive in real life and it's not hard, and neither is the game. I've not come across this "ice driving" as you're portraying it.

You implied that it's easy-peasy to just jump into a race car and get it. That's where I disagree.

Quick question; did you ever go about to getting your wheel all set-up? I have not used the wheels in game, so if that is what you're using, that is where our differences might be. @Ialyrn is wheel and pad user though, and I'd be willing to bet she'd agree that she hasn't been driving on ice either.

Problem is since Jan update i have no issues with using pad or my TX wheel, which is why i cant believe Jan update didn't change something for the better.

I and forza 6 are firm friends now and i am enjoying it ALOT, with the PCars tyre debacle i'm finding forza 6 is being played with a massive grin from me, and i cant wait to see what AC has to offer come April..and Dirt rally! good times.

 

[ImaRobot]

Problem is since Jan update i have no issues with using pad or my TX wheel, which is why i cant believe Jan update didn't change something for the better.

I and forza 6 are firm friends now and i am enjoying it ALOT, with the PCars tyre debacle i'm finding forza 6 is being played with a massive grin from me, and i cant wait to see what AC has to offer come April..and Dirt rally! good times.

I've never disagreed about the January patch changing something concerning the simulation steering mode, I've felt it too. Although, I was not experiencing the ice driving before or after the fact.

 

[dopedog]

I've never disagreed about the January patch changing something concerning the simulation steering mode, I've felt it too. Although, I was not experiencing the ice driving before or after the fact.

Anyway i think we are ALMOST signing from the same hymn book with this, i think if we were face to face over a couple of pints we'd of been aligning even more, sometime talking with passion over a keyboard stuff gets lost in translation, not so much you as you write well, but i'm French and English is 2nd to me, but good conversation buddy!
First most i love cars and love gaming, all that matters is are we both enjoying these games? YES!

 

[ImaRobot]

Anyway i think we are ALMOST signing from the same hymn book with this, i think if we were face to face over a couple of pints we'd of been aligning even more, sometime talking with passion over a keyboard stuff gets lost in translation, not so much you as you write well, but i'm French and English is 2nd to me, but good conversation buddy!
First most i love cars and love gaming, all that matters is are we both enjoying these games? YES!

No worries, for the most part I understood you well enough, but just wanted to point out that some things I couldn't put together well enough. I did notice that you aren't from the same continent, so I figured it was a language issue.

One quick tip, as I'm not sure if you noticed it through my rants, but if you ever install a Race Differential on a vehicle, always make sure to change the stock tune for the differential. This can be a cause for undesirable effects if left untouched.

 

[Nielsen]

I have a stock supra in my FM6 garage, and not once did it feel like that to me before the January update. I have had the car in there since the day the FM6 ultimate edition unlocked. But then this is the same for any car that apparently had this "lift-off" issue. I never recorded footage for the Supra, as you are the first person I have seen complain of the issue with that particular car. Though I do have pre-patch footage for some of the other cars people say suffered with this issue, such as the F458 Speciale.

F458 speciale G920 wheel:

F458 Speciale Xbox one gamepad:

Another car people said they had issues with pre-update, is the Nissan 370z. Driving with the X1 gamepad:

I first want to make clear that I'm not complaining about anything. Anyway, I have paid attention to the telemetry shown in these videos, and I didn't see any obvious instances where you attempt to induce lift-off oversteer. What I saw was effective throttle control through the corners, so I fail to see what these videos are proving. Please let me know if I'm overlooking something. If anything, you seem to induce lift-off oversteer at 3:18 in the second Ferrari 458 Speciale video, but I can't really tell whether that is caused by lifting off throttle or from braking while slightly out of balance.

And there are other cars, such as the LaFerrari and P1 that people complained had this issue. Cars to which I again drove myself stock, and to which again I did not suffer with driving at all. The videos for the runs are also on my youtube page. Even the Noble was complained about for having this lift off issue, and there is a video on my channel for that car as well.

I couldn't help but stop at the following sentence: "...I did not suffer with driving at all". I have to ask if we're talking about about the same thing here? I'm not complaining that cars are difficult to drive. I'm claiming that lift-off oversteer is no longer as pronounced in some cars as it used to be before the January update. As I said in my previous post, lift-off oversteer is something I have dealt with by utilizing effective driving techniques, much like you seemingly do in those videos. This doesn't mean that I haven't taken notice of several cars having a tendency to produce lift-off oversteer, some of which no longer do it quite as much post-January update, if at all.

I have had people say that the issue is only their while using TCS/STM, and the reason I don't get the issue is because I do not use those driver assists. The fact of the matter is, not using them would only exacerbate the issue more. As they are their to help people who need it to control the cars better.

I have even had people accuse me of using the driver aids, and that is the only reason I can drive the cars in the game.

Both @ImaRobot and @SlipZtrEm (hope you don't mind me tagging you both) are on my xbox live friends list, and I am sure they can tell you that I do not use them.

I don't have any reasons to not believe what you're saying.

And then when I want to cut loose and lark about, I can do things like this in stock or modified cars:

Stock 370z inertia drifting (foot brake initiations and Scandinavian flicks):

Drift tuned S13 inertia drifting:

Well driven.

 

[Ialyrn]

Anyway, I have paid attention to the telemetry shown in these videos, and I didn't see any obvious instances where you attempt to induce lift-off oversteer.

Now why would I have to "induce" a lift-off oversteer situation myself? I thought these cars prior to the January update suffered from it by default? All those videos have 2 things in common. They was recorded well before the January update dropped, and they are all cars people complained about lift-off oversteer with.

What I saw was effective throttle control through the corners, so I fail to see what these videos are proving. Please let me know if I'm overlooking something.

I use as effective control of the throttle as I can, something which I was taught to do by my real world driving instructor while learning to drive a real car on the road. He told me that when taking a corner, you should always be holding some throttle on to keep the cars balance in control. Since then I have also done the same thing in racing games. It became an automatic thing in fact.

What a lot do while driving in Forza (and other racing games), is that they will coast around some corners, usually low speed ones, till they hit the apex. Because of this you are inducing an engine braking situation, which transfers some weight from the rear tires to the front. Because you are already applying a turning force to the car, the result is oversteer while off throttle.

Another thing that doesn't help, is using sim steering. The issue is, it is very sensitive with the first few degrees of movement on the thumbstick. And although I have found in the last couple of days that 900° is somewhat usable while using sim steering, to the point I was even able to drift with Sim steering turned on. Anything below 720° of rotation, and that over sensitivity begins to return. What this over sensitive few degrees of movement does, is make it quite hard to use effective countersteering. Which is why I use Normal steering, and why I advise its use to others playing the game. Especially when they are new to the franchise.

As I pointed out in the other thread, and others besides that one. Sim steering in forza is nothing like how other competing sims feel, such as Assetto Corsa, iRacing, and Rfactor. So either T10 have it very right, and the other simulation racing game devs have it totally wrong. Or T10 has it very wrong, and the other devs are as close as they can get at this current time.

The thing that you are "overlooking" and "fail to see what these videos are proving", is the fact that by driving the cars effectively, and using real world driving techniques. The lift-off oversteer issue went right out of the window. Myself and @ImaRobot gave people over on the forza forums advice on driving the cars better, and the people that tried said advice found the issue with it disappeared. The general consensus ended up being to try the advice we was giving out.

If anything, you seem to induce lift-off oversteer at 3:18 in the second Ferrari 458 Speciale video, but I can't really tell whether that is caused by lifting off throttle or from braking while slightly out of balance.

If you are referring to the F458 video where I am using the control pad, then yes that is lift-off oversteer. If you watch the throttle input closely, then you will see that the oversteer begins when the throttle goes from 20% to 0%. The controller lap, by the way, was around 2 seconds faster than I was in the lap where I was on the wheel. I was pushing a lot harder, as the wheel video was brought into question for the fact I was using a wheel and not a controller. So I had a point to prove. I always tend to push harder when using the controller though. Afterwards however, I beat the lap again with the wheel. Overall, this is because my braking points and my line was better while I was using the controller. And I was able to match that line and surpass it, with the wheel in a couple of laps.

I couldn't help but stop at the following sentence: "...I did not suffer with driving at all". I have to ask if we're talking about about the same thing here? I'm not complaining that cars are difficult to drive. I'm claiming that lift-off oversteer is no longer as pronounced in some cars as it used to be before the January update. As I said in my previous post, lift-off oversteer is something I have dealt with by utilizing effective driving techniques, much like you seemingly do in those videos. This doesn't mean that I haven't taken notice of several cars having a tendency to produce lift-off oversteer, some of which no longer do it quite as much post-January update, if at all.

But isn't that what I am supposed to do? Am I not supposed to "utilize effective driving techniques" while racing in a racing game? I would do exactly the same things if I was driving a real car around a real race track, because it is how you effectively control the balance of the car. Which is the most important thing to do. All your inputs should be as smooth and precise as humanly possible.

By saying that "I did not suffer with driving at all", I am clearly saying that I did not suffer with lift-off oversteer, or any other issues that people may complain about with a certain car. Such as throttle on induced oversteer, or even understeer. Those few words are a cover all bases phrase, because I didn't suffer with any adverse vehicle behavior while driving them.

I have touched upon this in other threads, but I will go over it again quickly here. My driving style between Forza and other simulation based racers, such as Assetto and iRacing, stays the same. What you may not know, is that there are a minority of people that complain about lift-off oversteer in those 2 games also. Quite vehemently at that, possibly in the same sort of percentage range as people complain about it in Forza. The biggest culprits in Assetto, are the front wheel drives, the lotus Elise's, and other mid engine vehicles. But the lift-off oversteer only occurs if you come off the throttle too much in the middle of a corner, or are coasting from the entry to the apex. If you keep some throttle on and modulate it effectively however, there is no hint of this lift-off oversteer.

The fact that you are not noticing the "issue" you faced before the January update, is most likely a 2 pronged thing. You expected the game to be different because of the change, so you came into it with an open mind. Basically, it is a placebo effect. On top of that however, you would have also improved before the January update. Most likely to the point that there wouldn't have been a much of an issue for yourself, even if things had stayed as they was before. Dont underestimate your own abilities, as people improve all the time. I have a person on my friends list that had never really played racing games before FM5. In the space of 2 years they improved astronomically, to the point they have a fair number of top 10 times in FM5, and now FM6.

Well driven.

Thank you.

 

[Speedster911]

I have a stock supra in my FM6 garage, and not once did it feel like that to me before the January update. I have had the car in there since the day the FM6 ultimate edition unlocked. But then this is the same for any car that apparently had this "lift-off" issue. I never recorded footage for the Supra, as you are the first person I have seen complain of the issue with that particular car. Though I do have pre-patch footage for some of the other cars people say suffered with this issue, such as the F458 Speciale.

F458 Speciale Xbox one gamepad:


It doesn't work like that at all. You cant take someone who is bad a racing a car, put them into the best car for that racing series, and then be the best driver there ever was. Just like how in Forza a leaderboard tune on a car doesn't make a bad forza player good. You are either good or you are not.

Nice driving - what are your deadzones on the controller? Preferred driving cam?

 

[Ialyrn]

Nice driving - what are your deadzones on the controller? Preferred driving cam?

Deadzones are all 0/100 on the controller, and my preferred view is bonnet cam. At least where it isn't on the very tip of the bonnet. At those times I will switch into cockpit view.

On the wheel I use the same deadzones normally. But I have been experimenting with the break outside deadzone the last couple of days.

 

[Nielsen]

Now why would I have to "induce" a lift-off oversteer situation myself? I thought these cars prior to the January update suffered from it by default? All those videos have 2 things in common. They was recorded well before the January update dropped, and they are all cars people complained about lift-off oversteer with.

The degree to which they "suffer" from lift-off oversteer all depends on how they are driven. It's difficult for me to answer your question as I never paid much attention to how the 458 Speciale and 370 Z drove prior to the January update, if those are the ones you refer to with "these cars". All I know is that you seemingly allow the Ferrari to lift-off oversteer at 3:18 in one of the videos you posted.

Another thing that doesn't help, is using sim steering. The issue is, it is very sensitive with the first few degrees of movement on the thumbstick. And although I have found in the last couple of days that 900° is somewhat usable while using sim steering, to the point I was even able to drift with Sim steering turned on. Anything below 720° of rotation, and that over sensitivity begins to return. What this over sensitive few degrees of movement does, is make it quite hard to use effective countersteering. Which is why I use Normal steering, and why I advise its use to others playing the game. Especially when they are new to the franchise.

Now that might explain a few things. It's a fact that simulation steering characteristics changed for controller pad users with the January update, but I'm still having a hard time seeing how suddenly pushing the directional stick all the way to one side would cause different car behavior than it did prior to the update. Doing exactly that without applying throttle would usually cause lift-off oversteer in many cars, but that's not the case for some cars, such as the aforementioned F430 (big Yas Marina hairpin), after the January update. It may do it at higher speeds though. Input carelessness is obviously something to avoid on simulation steering, but driving correctly isn't the point here. The point is how cars respond under pressure caused by user input, or lack thereof. Moreover, you using normal steering might explain why you aren't feeling any changes from the update?

The thing that you are "overlooking" and "fail to see what these videos are proving", is the fact that by driving the cars effectively, and using real world driving techniques. The lift-off oversteer issue went right out of the window. Myself and @ImaRobot gave people over on the forza forums advice on driving the cars better, and the people that tried said advice found the issue with it disappeared. The general consensus ended up being to try the advice we was giving out.

I didn't overlook that. In fact, it's the only thing I acknowledged.

If you are referring to the F458 video where I am using the control pad, then yes that is lift-off oversteer. If you watch the throttle input closely, then you will see that the oversteer begins when the throttle goes from 20% to 0%. The controller lap, by the way, was around 2 seconds faster than I was in the lap where I was on the wheel. I was pushing a lot harder, as the wheel video was brought into question for the fact I was using a wheel and not a controller. So I had a point to prove. I always tend to push harder when using the controller though. Afterwards however, I beat the lap again with the wheel. Overall, this is because my braking points and my line was better while I was using the controller. And I was able to match that line and surpass it, with the wheel in a couple of laps.

We finally agree that cars have a tendency to lift-off oversteer in FM6. Again, I'm not too familiar with the 458 Speciale in the game, but I think you should take it for another spin (simulation steering) and see if you now can make it oversteer simply by lifting off the throttle mid-corner. There's a good chance you can but it's also possible that the changes of the January update has affected the car's tendency to lift-off oversteer, much like the F430 I mentioned no longer doing it to comparable extent at lower speeds.

But isn't that what I am supposed to do? Am I not supposed to "utilize effective driving techniques" while racing in a racing game? I would do exactly the same things if I was driving a real car around a real race track, because it is how you effectively control the balance of the car. Which is the most important thing to do. All your inputs should be as smooth and precise as humanly possible.

If you want to set a good lap time, effective driving techniques all the way. However, this isn't the real world and there may be times when it's interesting to test how the game physics respond under various circumstances. With the noticeable changes of the January update in mind, the latter approach is what led to me to create this thread. See the quoted bullet points in the original post for everything I noticed.

By saying that "I did not suffer with driving at all", I am clearly saying that I did not suffer with lift-off oversteer, or any other issues that people may complain about with a certain car. Such as throttle on induced oversteer, or even understeer. Those few words are a cover all bases phrase, because I didn't suffer with any adverse vehicle behavior while driving them.

I have touched upon this in other threads, but I will go over it again quickly here. My driving style between Forza and other simulation based racers, such as Assetto and iRacing, stays the same. What you may not know, is that there are a minority of people that complain about lift-off oversteer in those 2 games also. Quite vehemently at that, possibly in the same sort of percentage range as people complain about it in Forza. The biggest culprits in Assetto, are the front wheel drives, the lotus Elise's, and other mid engine vehicles. But the lift-off oversteer only occurs if you come off the throttle too much in the middle of a corner, or are coasting from the entry to the apex. If you keep some throttle on and modulate it effectively however, there is no hint of this lift-off oversteer.

I'll once again point out that driving difficulties isn't the point here. Comparing car behaviors before and after update is the point.

The fact that you are not noticing the "issue" you faced before the January update, is most likely a 2 pronged thing. You expected the game to be different because of the change, so you came into it with an open mind. Basically, it is a placebo effect. On top of that however, you would have also improved before the January update. Most likely to the point that there wouldn't have been a much of an issue for yourself, even if things had stayed as they was before. Dont underestimate your own abilities, as people improve all the time. I have a person on my friends list that had never really played racing games before FM5. In the space of 2 years they improved astronomically, to the point they have a fair number of top 10 times in FM5, and now FM6.

I didn't really expect the game to be different because the patch notes addressed wheel users. I'm using the standard controller after all. Others and I have noticed something being different, but feel free to call it a placebo effect if you will. I disagree. Also, me improving or not isn't relevant here. As I've said several times now, I don't always drive my very best when testing the physics in driving games. I perform wild maneuvers to see how the cars respond to my input.

 

[Speedster911]

Not that I'm contributing anything useful to the discussion here or anything, but the 458 S oversteers like there's no tomorrow on off-throttle. Mostly happens with careless driving though; a little finesse can keep it under control. Is it like that IRL?

 

[Nielsen]

Not that I'm contributing anything useful to the discussion here or anything, but the 458 S oversteers like there's no tomorrow on off-throttle. Mostly happens with careless driving though; a little finesse can keep it under control. Is it like that IRL?

Modern supercars are usually full of electronic assists, so I'm guessing it depends on the chosen setting on the real car. Mid-engined RWD layouts are often prone to lift-off oversteer though.

 

[Speedster911]

Modern supercars are usually full of electronic assists, so I'm guessing it depends on the chosen setting on the real car. Mid-engined RWD layouts are often prone to lift-off oversteer though.

I love driving that thing though.. not much difference between the this and the earlier 458 engine/exhaust sound. Is it exactly the same engine with upped HP?

Off-topic: love the VIP DLC cars... was hoping to hear a more throaty and menacing growl on the GT350.. but mehh!

 

[RacerPaul]

I'm no expert on driving game physics, but what I can say is that I
can get away with one grade less tyre compound since the update

Very handy for adding more power and handling parts