Physics: EPR vs GT4

[JasBird]

According to the book Car Suspension at Work you have to seperate Steering (feel/feedback), roadholding (grip) and handling (oversteer/understeer, etc.). For instance a bad steering might mess up a good handling car.

I agree that GT4 has a better steering feel than Enthusia. GT4 has a more natural feel to the inputs like a real car.

Cheers

 

[rotary_freq]

So thread, bear with me here. I've been doing some reading up on the physics engine of the new FORZA game coming out on Xbiohox ThreeSixtieeee (excuse my spelling, it's how I amuse myself) anywho, I guess the physics model refreshes at 360 frames a second, they were discussing that at 180-200mph with a refresh rate of even 60 frames a second, the car would be skipping along 4 feet per frame, which would severely hinder the realism of the game.

With that in mind, is anyone aware of how the physics in enthusia are even calculated and refreshed, and, you know, work? I understand that GT4 has a bunch of pre set parameters and doesn't actually calculate the physics on the fly like FORZA, and judging how the VGS works on enthusia I assume the game does work in real time.

So wrapping this whole post up, summarizing my horrible writing and such, why does enthusia feel so right?

 

[aarkad]

So thread, bear with me here. I've been doing some reading up on the physics engine of the new FORZA game coming out on Xbiohox ThreeSixtieeee (excuse my spelling, it's how I amuse myself) anywho, I guess the physics model refreshes at 360 frames a second, they were discussing that at 180-200mph with a refresh rate of even 60 frames a second, the car would be skipping along 4 feet per frame, which would severely hinder the realism of the game.

With that in mind, is anyone aware of how the physics in enthusia are even calculated and refreshed, and, you know, work? I understand that GT4 has a bunch of pre set parameters and doesn't actually calculate the physics on the fly like FORZA, and judging how the VGS works on enthusia I assume the game does work in real time.

So wrapping this whole post up, summarizing my horrible writing and such, why does enthusia feel so right?

I read somewhere that GT4 had 300 - 600 parameters per car. Contrasted with Forza 2 to at 900 or 9 000 parameters (Have heard contrasting statements.). GT4 also calculates physics at 60 fps, 360 fps with Forza 2. Clearly, F2 has the advantage in raw capability but x360 is next gen.

Fabulous numbers and no doubt critical in a simulation but you can have all the parameters you want in a car, if the value weightings (how they interact with each other) are incorrect, the driving "feel" will be incorrect.

I've heard that that GT4's high speed physics are better than Enthusia's... I don't know what you mean by that. If it is true that F2 "skips" 4 feet per second at 200 mph, wouldn't GT4 be worse by a factor of 6?

Additionally, members have said that EPR is better at low speed physics. That would be critical in modeling "in turn" car behavior, no?

So cars being equal, the only difference being the driver, the faster driver in EPR would be the winner in a race....at least that's my reasoning. So, thus a better a race car sim?

Try as a might, I can't find physics refresh stats for EPR, having said so, please check this out.... http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/mak/logger_01.html
http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/mak/logger_02.html
What follows is a live data logger on identical cars but VR vs reality.

Finally, after reading deathclown's posts and at risk of reviving a heated dispute.... You are guys seemed to be getting off the point. That is, which game accurately models car behavior.

I can see that deathclown's arguement was flawed in several ways:
1. basing his assumptions on 1 car's performance
2. not being able to ascertain how and how accurately CVTs are modeled in each game
3. the difficulty of determining what a performance effect CVTs have on car behavior. (smoother? more difficult? lack of driver feedback?)
4. lack of understanding of automatic tranmissions. run of the mill autos are NOT controlled by clutches as previously mentioned by others.
5. lack of understanding of traction control/LSDs. LSDs are a mechanical type of "traction control" but there are many types of "traction control" that exists, when most auto journalists refer to traction control they are speaking of electronically activated means: engine retardation, individual wheel braking, and probably more that I don't know of...
6. never once have I read him rebuking the speedometer in EPR. We all know that it is RPM linked, unlike GT4's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but not once did he reply to someone's (I forgot) post that the speedo behaves this way. Not once has he looked at the possbility that excessive wheelspin (not a "burn out") will read an increased speed on which is really a phantom reading.

Deathclown, if you ever read this thread agin or maybe somebody that knows him, I would suggest that you test a completely neutral car. One that has no unknowns in simulation programming (like the CVT issue).

In closing, several of my friends tried GT4 when I first bought it and they said rubbish, and went back to GT3. They also said rubbish when they tried Enthusia... So clearly GT3 is the real driving simulator....

Seriously though, whatever floats your boat. But at least play a game for a while before critiquing it.

 

[Mick777]

I'm not sure what point you were making when you made the comment about the 'phantom' reading of the speedo so i thought i'd let you know that it's actually not a phantom reading. Enthusia's is actually the best game speedo i have seen because it shows the wheel-speed (as in real life) not the actual speed of the car (like GT3, GT4, ToCA3 etc...).

 

[Wolfe]

I've heard that that GT4's high speed physics are better than Enthusia's... I don't know what you mean by that.

Mainly, it's that the effects of aerodynamics on roadcars (ie. a degree of lift at high speed) are underpronounced in EPR.

Additionally, members have said that EPR is better at low speed physics. That would be critical in modeling "in turn" car behavior, no?

That's how I feel, and that's why I think GT4's donut and burnout problems, which are obvious to everyone, affect its handling at all speeds.

Try as a might, I can't find physics refresh stats for EPR, having said so, please check this out.... http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/mak/logger_01.html
http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/mak/logger_02.html
What follows is a live data logger on identical cars but VR vs reality.

I've never been able to find refresh stats for EPR either, but you may find the following link interesting, if you haven't seen it already...
http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/system/sim_02.html

To my knowledge, the only two games with physics engines like the one shown on the left are Enthusia and Live for Speed. I suspect Richard Burns Rally is the same way, but haven't spent enough time with it to know.

Meanwhile, you can feel just from the way the cars move that all of the Gran Turismos, both Forzas, all of the ISI-powered games (GTR, GTL, GTR2, rFactor, etc.), all of the TOCA games, and most other driving games work off of a version of the physics engine on the right, augmented by special algorithms to make them more complicated -- for example, rotary_freq once told me he read an article where a representative from Polyphony Digital was talking about finding the "drifting equation."

In closing, several of my friends tried GT4 when I first bought it and they said rubbish, and went back to GT3. They also said rubbish when they tried Enthusia... So clearly GT3 is the real driving simulator....

I do like GT3, but several years ago, when I played it religiously and thought it really was "the real driving simulator," I came across an odd little racing sim on the computer -- Live for Speed. Suddenly, GT3's traction, suspension modelling, and rotational momentum flaws became as clear as day.

Thanks to LFS, GT4 was a monumental disappointment for me, but EPR gave me everything I was looking for in a GT-style game.

Seriously though, whatever floats your boat. But at least play a game for a while before critiquing it.

Certainly.

 

[Vio]

Is F2 really still the same old physics-model used again? You would think that if they go to the length to include all the telemetry-data that they take the next step but it seems like we'll have to wait for EPR2.....

 

[aarkad]

Mick777: That's what I meant by RPM linked, deathclown didn't take into account the speed on his screen would be from WHEEL speed and not VEHICULAR speed. I think he mentioned that the wheels kicked up a bunch of smoke in the game when he test. And then he goes and states his speed.... His vehicular or his wheel speed? I would say the latter since he never rebuked the different speedo style between games. Which is part of the reason I think he's wrong and was surprised no one called him on it to acknowledge.

Wolfe: Yes, I have seen the page you linked to. Although noone but the developers can really prove that very few games out there use the physics model illustrated, If I were a programmer, that's exactly how I would do it. I think it's just common sense if you start thinking about how a car moves in real life.

In fact, had the page not stated other games did not use this model, I would have just assumed the opposite. Driving games have always felt strange to me. Now I know why.

I find it strange that other games would not tout this model widely in their press releases especially if they did use it. Could you elaborate on your Forza 2 statement? I don't have Forza 2 so I can't comment on they physics model. I find it strange they would not use the model but have telemetry for each individual wheel as shown by various screenshots and video clips. Very tempted to buy the game...

I was looking at buying LFS but this would mean I buy a G25.... If you're going to do it, do it right...

 

[Wolfe]

Is F2 really still the same old physics-model used again? You would think that if they go to the length to include all the telemetry-data that they take the next step but it seems like we'll have to wait for EPR2.....

It might be an all-new physics model, but it definitely feels like it was designed in the same vein as in the first game -- the column on the right in that link I provided.

...noone but the developers can really prove that very few games out there use the physics model illustrated...

This is true, but at least to me the difference is like night and day. Nothing else feels like Live for Speed and Enthusia.

Could you elaborate on your Forza 2 statement? I don't have Forza 2 so I can't comment on they physics model. I find it strange they would not use the model but have telemetry for each individual wheel as shown by various screenshots and video clips. Very tempted to buy the game...

I find it strange, too, but just having numbers doesn't necessarily mean that they're correct, or that they're being used correctly.

The main reason why Forza 2 feels like a right-hand-column game to me is because, just like the first game, it can exhibit some goofy motions at times -- for example, finding yourself in a situation where it feels like you're "strafing" the car (move the front and rear ends left or right almost simultaneously, giving the sensation of "strafing" like in a first-person-shooter), especially if you jerk the joystick back and forth. Although I didn't play it for very long, goofing around on one of the tracks led to this discovery.

It's also just generally inaccurate compared to EPR and LFS -- there isn't enough understeer, oversteer isn't as easy to control with RWD cars as it should be, body roll is nonexistent in the "interior" views, and the transition between tire grip and slip is too narrow/brief, to name a few things.

However, I'm not saying you shouldn't buy it -- it's still realistic enough to be fun (which is much, much more than I could say for the first Forza), and it easily tromps GT4 in accuracy. The customization is incredible, the car selection has a lot of neat not-so-expected entries, and the Nürburgring is more accurate this time around (but still not close to EPR/GT4).

It's just no Enthusia or Live for Speed.

I was looking at buying LFS but this would mean I buy a G25.... If you're going to do it, do it right...

The G25 is definitely good, but a DFP works too. As long as you have 900 degrees to work with.

 

[Biggles]

I have a few questions about EPR which maybe some Ethusiasts can help me with (I don't know how to post a new EPR thread).

What exactly is the relationship between your "Skill Level" & the "R" level (RIII, RII etc.)?

Does the AI get harder as you progress through the Rs, or do the cars just get faster?

Why do the fastest cars (lowest odds) so often finish badly?

Does increasing the tuning of your car effect the racing odds?

How many Skill levels are there?

At this point (level 26 so far) I am winning all my races, mostly pretty easily, so I'm wondering when does it start getting harder?

Thanks for any help!

 

[Tornado]

Does increasing the tuning of your car effect the racing odds?

Yes. I'm quite sure it does.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I have a few questions about EPR which maybe some Ethusiasts can help me with (I don't know how to post a new EPR thread).

What exactly is the relationship between your "Skill Level" & the "R" level (RIII, RII etc.)?

None. AFAIK The level of the races you can enter depends only on your ranking position



Does the AI get harder as you progress through the Rs, or do the cars just get faster?

Both things happen. But mainly what happens is that the AI is more skilled




Why do the fastest cars (lowest odds) so often finish badly?

You mean AI cars? As you progress to higher levels of racing, you'll find that fast cars are fast.




Does increasing the tuning of your car effect the racing odds?

I'm not sure




How many Skill levels are there?

Don't know. I never found an end to my progression, even in loooong career games




At this point (level 26 so far) I am winning all my races, mostly pretty easily, so I'm wondering when does it start getting harder?

It doesn't depend on what skill level you have. It depends on what race level you are racing, and if you're driving a super car with low odds, or trying to get the top spots in the ranking, therefore choosing good-but-not-super-cars



Thanks for any help!

You're welcome!

 

[Biggles]

Thanks for the response, Hun.

AFAIK The level of the races you can enter depends only on your ranking position

OK. What's the difference between the Skill Level & the Ranking?

You mean AI cars? As you progress to higher levels of racing, you'll find that fast cars are fast.

Yeah, I mean the AI cars. I've had several races where the "dominant car" comes in 4th or 5th.

Don't know. I never found an end to my progression, even in loooong career games

What is the highest Skill Level you've reached?

It doesn't depend on what skill level you have. It depends on what race level you are racing, and if you're driving a super car with low odds, or trying to get the top spots in the ranking, therefore choosing good-but-not-super-cars

I've been driving pretty modest cars with relatively high odds & kicking the butt of the AI cars. Eg. Celica > Viper

 

[Hun200kmh]

OK. What's the difference between the Skill Level & the Ranking?

Skill level - improves much like the tuning level of your car. If you have clean races you are awarded "skill points". Those points don't affect your ranking overall in the career, they do affect, however, a very important thing. the yellow "life bar" you can see at the bottom left of the screen while you race. The greater your skill level, the greater that life bar will be. And it also affects the "recovery rate of said "life bar" after each race.

This means that when you already have a great "life bar" you can enter a very, very hard race at the most difficult track you can imagine (Nurburgring ... reverse ), and you might - just might - get out of it without your "life bar" completely depleted (when that happens, the game forces you to "rest" for one gameweek).

The game doesn't call it "yellow life bar", but I think you get the meaning ...

Ranking - is just that. You start with 0 points and in the 1000th position, the points you earn in races improve that. Beware that you don't "beat" this game by getting to 1st. You beat it if you win the RS race in the last game week of any game year (week 4 of month 12 of the year ... )

That race is named the "King of the Year Race", it's raced in the Nurburgring, features road cars and to enter it you have to be at least 6th (in the ranking) by the time that this race is run.

This all sounds very confusing, I know, but when you get it it's really quite simple and very logical

I advise you to read the excellent FAQ (made by Wolfe) stickied on the top of this forum. If you want more info reagrding the "King of the Year Race", use the search function and search for "KoTY"

What is the highest Skill Level you've reached?

I'm not sure (those looooog careers were a long time ago), but I guess nearly 100

 

[Biggles]

So does the Skill level equal the accumulated Enthu points? If you have a good (clean) race your Enthu points increase & your Skill level goes up?

 

[Mick777]

Yes. The higher your skill level the more Enthu points you have (and the quicker you recover them between races). As hun200kmh said those Enthu points ('yellow life bar') come in handy if you have a particularly challenging race.

The skill level of the AI in races seems to be limited by the racing level (RN,... RS). In the early stages the poorly skilled AI tend to struggle especially with the more powerful cars. So if you see a 'brute' in the early stages don't be too concerned because it's most likely that the AI won't be able to handle it. When you get to the higher race rankings the game allows more skilled AI to enter, so you get a range from poor to very good. If a good AI drives a fast car he might just give you a run for your money. Recently i had a race with two Caterham R500's in it. I knew my Lotus Elise wasn't a match but was hoping that (after many previous races) this would be the time that the car 'slot machine' would award me with my own Caterham. The first Caterham blew by soon enough and i was expecting to finish third but the other R500 was given a useless AI which saw him finish 4th overall (1st Caterham, 2nd me, 3rd Garayia(sp?)...). So it seems, for that particular race, the first Caterham got a very good AI. The Garayia(sp?) probably did too. But the second Caterham got a rubbish AI which meant he struggled despite having the best car of the field.

 

[Hun200kmh]

All this talk about EPR made me want to play it again. So, last night, I put the DVD and the memory card on the PS2, plugged my DF on it and gave it a go. It seems that last time I had been playing it I was with the R8 and into RS races. Placed 6th in the ranking.

So, next race was Tsukuba by night, against two R8's, the GT-One, the Nissan and the Mclaren.

"No problem", I thought. "After all, I used to be good at this ..."

Finished 6th

So ...

I erased the memory card save and I'm starting it all over again

 

[Biggles]

Now that I've got some serious time in EPR under my belt, I have one comment that doesn't seem to have been touched on in this thread (as far as I have come across).

A lot of people have commented on the fact that the cars in EPR feel as if they're "floating". I really believe that one of the major reasons for this is the terrible tire sounds. The sound comes on & off abruptly & resembles the scraping sound an exhaust system makes dragging on the ground (if you've ever suffered that embarassing predicament ).

GT4 has a tire noise that gradually builds, distinctly changing sound as you push the tires to the limit - this is especially true at higher speeds. Whether the GT4 noise is "realistic" or not is besides the point - it provides an aural cue to what the car is doing which allows you to adjust your driving input accordingly. IRL there are a lot of cues telling you what is happening to the car, in a video game there are very few.

GT4 uses tire sounds much more effectively than EPR (or Forza). This is not the same thing as saying that GT4's physics are better. I do think that, overall, EPR has much a more accurate representation of the physics of driving.

 

[Wolfe]

Now that I've got some serious time in EPR under my belt, I have one comment that doesn't seem to have been touched on in this thread (as far as I have come across).

A lot of people have commented on the fact that the cars in EPR feel as if they're "floating". I really believe that one of the major reasons for this is the terrible tire sounds. The sound comes on & off abruptly & resembles the scraping sound an exhaust system makes dragging on the ground (if you've ever suffered that embarassing predicament ).

I've rebutted this idea before, when Tenacious D brought it up, and when you brought it up in the GT4 vs Forza thread. It may not be particularly loud, but Enthusia's tire noise does everything you're looking for, and then some.

I'll link to the video I made for Tenacious D again, simply because it's easier than trying to put everything into words.

Oh, and in assuming that the tire noise is responsible for the widely-held notion that Enthusia is "floaty," you're assuming that all of those people depend on tire noise for feedback and wouldn't be able to play the game with the music volume turned up all the way...or the TV muted. Personally, I'm much more likely to believe that people just don't understand how little grip real-world tires have. And Enthusia still has too much grip.

Whether the GT4 noise is "realistic" or not is besides the point...

Why? I think that is the point. With both games.

 

[Biggles]

Glad to see you're still paying attention, Wolfe.

No, I didn't say that the tire noise is responsible for people feeling that EPR cars are "floaty". I said it was one of the reasons. In particular, in high speed cornering in EPR, you get the sensation (visually) that the car is starting to drift, but there is absolutely no sound from the tires until you push it to the point where that awful scraping noise starts.

Yes, there is tire noise in EPR (your video rebutts nothing about the tire sound relative to GT4), but to me the sound is extremely unrealistic (much less realistic sounding than in GT4) & most importantly, does not communicate as much about what is happening to the car. I actually have got used to reading the VGS icon (which at first I found weird & "unrealistic") because of the additional information it gives me about what is happening to the tires.

Personally, I don't listen to music while driving in EPR, Forza, or GT4, precisely because it takes away from the concentration on the sounds from the car. I may be wrong, but I don't imagine too many professional race drivers have the stereo cranked up while they're racing either...

 

[Wolfe]

No, I didn't say that the tire noise is responsible for people feeling that EPR cars are "floaty". I said it was one of the reasons.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you thought it was the only one.

(your video rebutts nothing about the tire sound relative to GT4)

I have nothing negative to say about GT4's tire noise, and I don't think Enthusia's tire noise needs to be compared head-to-head with GT4's just to be able to prove its competence.

That, and a friend of mine is "permanently borrowing" my copy of GT4, so it has been mostly unavailable to me for the last several months.

...to me the sound is extremely unrealistic (much less realistic sounding than in GT4) & most importantly, does not communicate as much about what is happening to the car.

Personally, I don't see how it doesn't. The noise builds as you approach and exceed the limit of traction, once you're beyond the limit the noise is at its loudest, and the noise changes in pitch (slightly) and volume depending on the weight load on the tires, even lessening in intensity depending on the slip angle of the front tires in an oversteer situation.

All of this was demonstrated in the video. Aside from the fact that it's too quiet for the tastes of some, what more would you like to have seen?

I actually have got used to reading the VGS icon (which at first I found weird & "unrealistic") because of the additional information it gives me about what is happening to the tires.

I only ever use it when I'm curious as to which wheel is spinning on a car with an open differential, but I'd say the VGS is your best solution, here.

Personally, I don't listen to music while driving in EPR, Forza, or GT4, precisely because it takes away from the concentration on the sounds from the car. I may be wrong, but I don't imagine too many professional race drivers have the stereo cranked up while they're racing either...

You don't watch much Top Gear, do you...

I enjoy listening to music with all of my racing games, even Live for Speed, for which I have a personal mix of music from the soundtracks to Enthusia, Ridge Racer Type 4, and Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed. I actually have the music volume turned off on Enthusia though -- if my PS2 tries to stream the music, it inevitably runs into a Disc Read Error, causing the music to stop and the game to freeze at the next loading screen.

 

[Mick777]

Wolfe your comments in that video were a crack-up. I'm guessing that was posted earlier in this thread. Is it worth a laugh for me to go back and read it?


I do have some thoughts to add...

From what i can tell, in Enthusia the tyres only make a sound once you've used all the available traction. If you continue to push them the sound gets louder as the slip angle increases. This is especially noticable with the front wheels as, quite simply, if you can hear them then you've pushed them too hard (they're sliding at too large an angle thus lowering available grip) and you're not able to turn as hard as you should be. If you back off just slightly (not to be confused with transferring weight to the front to give more grip) to the point where the sound stops you'll notice the grip return as that's the point where the tyres are at their optimal slip angle. That's not to say that making the tyres squeal is bad as there are still times when it's faster to momentarily push them beyond their optimum grip; the most common reason for that being when changing direction is more important than grip.

The tyres should start making some noise as you're nearing the limit, not remain silent until after you've reached it. One funny thing i've found though is that the tyres on 'tuned' cars (eg lvl10) are more forgiving of larger slip angles and you can get away with more tyre squeal without grip suffering as much. Considering racing slicks are actually less forgiving of large slip angles than your standard production car rubber this is kind of funny.

Many kudos to you Biggles for being able to drive with the VGS turned on. I use it as a post-lap analysis tool but i've never been able to drive with on. I end up hypnotised by it and find myself bouncing off the wall at the next corner.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe your comments in that video were a crack-up. I'm guessing that was posted earlier in this thread. Is it worth a laugh for me to go back and read it?

It was in the GT vs Forza thread in the Gran Turismo 5 forum. The post I quoted is here.

The tyres should start making some noise as you're nearing the limit, not remain silent until after you've reached it.

This is definitely the crux of the issue, but the problem is that it all depends on the tire. Different tires make different kinds of noises at different levels of grip. I have first-hand experience with this, between the generic long-life all-seasons on my parents' Oldsmobile, and the Yokohama Avid H4S high-performance all-seasons on my BMW. At a rather tight onramp about 10 minutes from my house, the Oldsmobile's tires are already screaming at 30mph, but the BMW's tires don't even begin to make much noticable noise until 45mph. Remember, this is just between two different kinds of all-seasons -- I don't have first-hand experience with summer tires, but I imagine some of them could be even quieter than my BMW's tires.

This is why it's hard to say which game has "more accurate" tire sounds. As long as they're realistically communicative (and Enthusia does more than a good enough job of this, in my opinion), I'm happy.

One funny thing i've found though is that the tyres on 'tuned' cars (eg lvl10) are more forgiving of larger slip angles and you can get away with more tyre squeal without grip suffering as much. Considering racing slicks are actually less forgiving of large slip angles than your standard production car rubber this is kind of funny.

I don't think Lvl10 roadcars get racing slicks, but I do know Enthusia's slick-equipped R-class cars enjoy an insanely friendly grip-slip transition.

 

[Mick777]

Of the many different tyres i've run on my car i've never had one that didn't make some noise as it approached it's limits; though that noise is definitely not always the same, nor is the speed at which the sound starts. For instance, the tyres i have on my car right now make a very high-pitched squeal as soon as they're pushed, whereas the last set of tyres i had made a scuffing sound. Both of them are telling me the same thing (that if i push harder i will force the tyres beyond their optimum slip angle) but they sound completely different.

It is odd when you can make a fast lap pushing the limits of a car and it's strangely void of tyre noise but i don't see this as a physics flaw. Sounds are not necessary for physics calculations, they're just for the benefit of recreating the experience for the player. Many of us hope that there will be an Enthusia 2 and i'm sure if there is they'll work on this issue.

 

[Biggles]

Of the many different tyres i've run on my car i've never had one that didn't make some noise as it approached it's limits; though that noise is definitely not always the same, nor is the speed at which the sound starts. For instance, the tyres i have on my car right now make a very high-pitched squeal as soon as they're pushed, whereas the last set of tyres i had made a scuffing sound. Both of them are telling me the same thing (that if i push harder i will force the tyres beyond their optimum slip angle) but they sound completely different.

It is odd when you can make a fast lap pushing the limits of a car and it's strangely void of tyre noise but i don't see this as a physics flaw.

This is my point: in a video racing game, the sound is an extremely important cue to what the car is doing. GT4 implements the tire sound cue much better than EPR (or Forza). The sound may not be realistic in terms of the particular car or tires - it is a generic sound - but it does the job very well.

One other disappointing aspect to the sound in EPR is the lack of feedback (sound & rumble) on many of the surfaces encountered on the various tracks. There are quite a few places where there are cobblestones & wooden bridge slats & there is no indication of this change of surface (particularly odd because the actual rumble strips work fine!).

Many kudos to you Biggles for being able to drive with the VGS turned on. I use it as a post-lap analysis tool but i've never been able to drive with on. I end up hypnotised by it and find myself bouncing off the wall at the next corner.

At first I found the VGS very distracting & turned it off. Now I don't mind it & use it identify tire spin as I throttle-up out of a corner & to make sure the car is properly balanced braking hard into a corner.

I don't want to sound like I'm down on EPR, because, in fact, I'm really enjoying it, but there's no getting around the fact that there are some very odd aspects to the game.

 

[Tornado]

for which I have a personal mix of music from the soundtracks to Enthusia, Ridge Racer Type 4, and Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed.

A soundtrack exists?

 

[Wolfe]

A soundtrack exists?

Yes, actually, but the mp3s I have were extracted from the game disc myself, using a little program I found.

The disc was in pretty bad shape, so there are skips and imperfections at some points in the mp3s, but all of the versions I've found on the internet have been of lower audio quality.