Physics: EPR vs GT4

  • Thread starter JasBird
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Wolfe
It's because GT4 treats the GT-8 as if it had an 8-speed manual transmission, and thus, just like the 350GT in either EPR or GT4, the car doesn't have the power to redline the engine under the load of the wheelspin. Also, the lack of a proper torque converter simulation in GT4 means there's no slip in the transmission.
I can't speak on CVT's to directly.
But as for standard automatic transmissions, which have torque converters, the torque converter is a group of clutches, or "clutch packs", which simulate the exact same thing as a regular clutch on a manual, on the driver has no intervention.
most cars come with 2200-2500 rpm torque converters, stock.
What this means, is that if your current gear drops the engine rpms below that amount, when you press the gas pedal, the converter slips, increasing rpm, essentially the same as bogging a clutch on a manual. The harder you press the pedal, the closer to the converter limit, (2200), it will be.
Now, if you are full throttle, at 5000rpm, on a car with a 2200rpm torque converter, your transmission will not be slipping, the torque converter is past it's limit, and you are simply going 5000rpm, and it cannot increase that by "converting", unless it is broken/worn down/going bad.

As I said many times already, I am not certain the car was an 8-speed. It drove just like a 6-speed, and that is what I assumed it was.
It was only when I saw the 8-speed in GT4, I assumed at first that it was an 8-speed.
Frankly it doesn't matter, a torque converter slipping does not cause a rear end to slide out. So the entire case is null.

@rsmithdrifter - I've already mentioned having dial-up, and after 10minutes of watching 1 second clips, you're clip is just way to long, and I don't care.
Do you know why? Because you can't show me what happened when I drove the car, because you've all made it quite clear that you can't tell if I was driving this car or that, if a torque converter was slipping, if it is one-wheel drive, and every other possible exception you could come up with to avert blame from EPR.


Wolfe
An open-diff can allow one wheel to spin alone (remember here that I had assumed the G35 had one).
Any car with a "posi" will not spin just one wheel for more than a few tenths of a second, if it is working properly.
I assume that Japanese automakers are on top of this by now, America has been for over a decade. If you assume otherwise, that is no reason for you to feel that I wasn't clear. that is your own mistake.

Wolfe
I understand perfectly what the point of your message is. It's when you try to describe or explain something that things can get muddy.
Tell Me.
Tell me exactly what happened then, so you can't say you don't know again.
 
I can't speak on CVT's to directly.
But as for standard automatic transmissions, which have torque converters, the torque converter is a group of clutches, or "clutch packs", which simulate the exact same thing as a regular clutch on a manual, on the driver has no intervention.
most cars come with 2200-2500 rpm torque converters, stock.
What this means, is that if your current gear drops the engine rpms below that amount, when you press the gas pedal, the converter slips, increasing rpm, essentially the same as bogging a clutch on a manual. The harder you press the pedal, the closer to the converter limit, (2200), it will be.
Now, if you are full throttle, at 5000rpm, on a car with a 2200rpm torque converter, your transmission will not be slipping, the torque converter is past it's limit, and you are simply going 5000rpm, and it cannot increase that by "converting", unless it is broken/worn down/going bad.

Sorry, but a torque converter is a fluid coupling, not a clutch pack. As such, the engine is never directly connected to the transmission, and will always allow a degree of slip when you hit the gas.

As I said many times already, I am not certain the car was an 8-speed. It drove just like a 6-speed, and that is what I assumed it was.
It was only when I saw the 8-speed in GT4, I assumed at first that it was an 8-speed.

Well, I couldn't get the manual-transmission-equipped 350GT to do an 80mph redline-bouncing powerslide. Only the GT-8.

Frankly it doesn't matter, a torque converter slipping does not cause a rear end to slide out. So the entire case is null.

I never said that. A torque converter slipping causes RPM gain.

Any car with a "posi" will not spin just one wheel for more than a few tenths of a second, if it is working properly.
I assume that Japanese automakers are on top of this by now, America has been for over a decade. If you assume otherwise, that is no reason for you to feel that I wasn't clear. that is your own mistake.

An open-diff can allow one wheel to spin alone (remember here that I had assumed the G35 had one).

Tell Me.
Tell me exactly what happened then, so you can't say you don't know again.

You were driving the Nissan Skyline GT-8, entered a corner, encountered oversteer, and the engine RPM rose to redline as you got wheelspin. Now, you're telling us why you think it happened, and we're telling you why we think it happened.
 
Sorry, but a torque converter is a fluid coupling, not a clutch pack. As such, the engine is never directly connected to the transmission, and will always allow a degree of slip when you hit the gas.

BINGO!! We have a winner!! I have no clue why people think an auto transmission has "clutch packs".....Maybe because dragsters have "clutch packs" and people assume they are auto...but I'm not sure exactly, it's not true anyways, any real road car has a setup with two fins in a fluid. It's kinda hard to explain.

Here, this'll help http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter2.htm

Well, I couldn't get the manual-transmission-equipped 350GT to do an 80mph redline-bouncing powerslide. Only the GT-8.

Yep, and it only did it cause of slipping tranny and close, close, very very close gear ratio's.

An open-diff can allow one wheel to spin alone (remember here that I had assumed the G35 had one).

But it doesn't, it has a middle of the road LSD. Meaning it replicates something like a helical, or a very strong viscous LSD. Which still allow one wheel to spin under most circumstances. Even clutch pack LSD's do not fully lock up. They tighten up to a point and get no tighter. They are always slipping. Unless you want it to fully lock up, but that requires a special type of locking LSD designed for drift cars, and is never used in street cars.

You were driving the Nissan Skyline GT-8, entered a corner, encountered oversteer, and the engine RPM rose to redline as you got wheelspin. Now, you're telling us why you think it happened, and we're telling you why we think it happened.

What it sounds like to me too.

deathclown
@rsmithdrifter - I've already mentioned having dial-up, and after 10minutes of watching 1 second clips, you're clip is just way to long, and I don't care.
Do you know why? Because you can't show me what happened when I drove the car, because you've all made it quite clear that you can't tell if I was driving this car or that, if a torque converter was slipping, if it is one-wheel drive, and every other possible exception you could come up with to avert blame from EPR.

Unfortunate to be on dialup...... Sorry man, I know how much that sucks and I can't believe you are on the internet this much with it........Well that's not true anyways...... and not very mature either..... The car behaves under a certain group of variables that we call physics. I work on video games, so I know the way video games treat them. Very strictly. So it'll behave the same for me as it did for you. And what you described simply is not possible of EPR's physics system to recreate, unless of course, you were cutting donuts and upshifted to 4th and somehow managed to keep the car from bogging out, or were in the grass or off road...... Then you could spin tire hard in 4th gear, but your chasis wouldn't be going 80mph either. But on asphault with the chasis moving 80mph, it's physically Impossible in the game because your amost at redline anyways. You can only get a possible 1.5k rpm of wheelspin.... and you did, sort of (some of that is slipping tranny) and that's not that much considering it's only spinning one wheel. It's very concievable for the real car to behave this way. So I will think only better of the game for doing so.
 
Sorry, but a torque converter is a fluid coupling, not a clutch pack. As such, the engine is never directly connected to the transmission, and will always allow a degree of slip when you hit the gas.
Yes. I was really going 42mph in 4th, and the trans slipped from 200rpm, all the way to over 7000, and slid the car out.



Wolfe
Well, I couldn't get the manual-transmission-equipped 350GT to do an 80mph redline-bouncing powerslide. Only the GT-8.
Fantastic.
Isn't the GT8 the 350?



Wolfe
I never said that. A torque converter slipping causes RPM gain.
As a reason for the rpm's to rise against the rev-limiter.



Wolfe
An open-diff can allow one wheel to spin alone (remember here that I had assumed the G35 had one).
This is exactly what you said last time. If you like, I could repeat my last response, but that doesnt have much point, does it?


Wolfe
You were driving the Nissan Skyline GT-8, entered a corner, encountered oversteer, and the engine RPM rose to redline as you got wheelspin. Now, you're telling us why you think it happened, and we're telling you why we think it happened.
The way you phrase this, it makes it sound like it was already oversteering before "the engine RPM rose to redline".
And what makes you assume I don't know what happened?
Why have you insistently assumed that it must be something other than EPR getting carried away with wheelspin?


rsmithdrift
And what you described simply is not possible of EPR's physics system to recreate, unless of course, you were cutting donuts and upshifted to 4th and somehow managed to keep the car from bogging out, or were in the grass or off road...... Then you could spin tire hard in 4th gear, but your chasis wouldn't be going 80mph either. But on asphault with the chasis moving 80mph, it's physically Impossible in the game because your amost at redline anyways. You can only get a possible 1.5k rpm of wheelspin.... and you did, sort of (some of that is slipping tranny) and that's not that much considering it's only spinning one wheel. It's very concievable for the real car to behave this way. So I will think only better of the game for doing so.
So now the car is one-wheel drive again? No, cars with any kind of lsd, or posi, or whatever, do not do "1.5k" of wheelspin, without spinning both tires, not matter what you typer here.

I guess you're right, I was bored, and decided I would do donuts, and then post a big story about how the car spun it's tires in the grass in 4th gear, because that's so different from GT4.:rolleyes:

Like I said, you guys will come up with anything and everything to try to defend your game, even if it makes no sense, is highly unlikely, or even impossible, just because you'd hate for anything else to be true. Denial is a powerful thing.
it spun the tires because it's an 8-speed, it didn't spin the tires, the toque converter slipped, you must have been doing donuts, your car was going way slower than 80, thats just what the speedometer said, you were turning, and race cars in another game do burnouts at high speeds when they turn, so it's logical, it won't do what you said. Here's why it did what you said...(blah, blah).
You have all 3 argued that it must have been different things, and now have also said it cannot happen, but yet continue to argue as to how it did. Do you not understand how odd that is?
 
So now the car is one-wheel drive again? No, cars with any kind of lsd, or posi, or whatever, do not do "1.5k" of wheelspin, without spinning both tires, not matter what you typer here.

BULL S**T! Oh, how I wish that were true, god that would make drifting so much easier..... Go drive a real car, any car with a viscous LSD, (like a ABS equipped 240, or a J30, or a 300zx) THEY WILL ALL SPIN INSIDE TIRE HARD.

LIke I said earlier in the post you quoted, it has a weak clutch type LSD, or a strong Viscous, or a helical. (all of those are similar to setting the Limited slip to 50% in Enthu, which is what the GT-8 has) And all of these types of LSD NEVER, I REPEAT, NEVER fully lock, they will all allow a small amount of differential between the two rear tires, and the higher the speed, the more differential they will allow. And at 80mph it allows enough differential for only one tire to spin. Hit the 0 button and look a the g-map icon in the center of the screen, it shows the steering angle, and grip level at each tire, along with wheelpsin, wheelslpin is indicated by outlining that tire in red. Only one tire was outlined in red everytime I attempted what you described, meaning it's only spinning one wheel.

I guess you're right, I was bored, and decided I would do donuts, and then post a big story about how the car spun it's tires in the grass in 4th gear, because that's so different from GT4.:rolleyes:

You know that's not what I meant. It was an example, that you misconstrued.

Like I said, you guys will come up with anything and everything to try to defend your game, even if it makes no sense, is highly unlikely, or even impossible, just because you'd hate for anything else to be true. Denial is a powerful thing.
it spun the tires because it's an 8-speed, it didn't spin the tires, the toque converter slipped, you must have been doing donuts, your car was going way slower than 80, thats just what the speedometer said, you were turning, and race cars in another game do burnouts at high speeds when they turn, so it's logical, it won't do what you said. Here's why it did what you said...(blah, blah).
You have all 3 argued that it must have been different things, and now have also said it cannot happen, but yet continue to argue as to how it did. Do you not understand how odd that is?


And I fully agree with what they all said also, I think alot of things work together IRL and in EPR to give the effect that you described and misinterpreted. (you misinterpereted the car in the game, you saw your RPM's rise, and assumed it was all wheelspin) The reality is, that the tranny slipped, causing some of the gain, it did spin one wheel a small amount, and once the tire hits its limit (indicated by the g-map as the tire turning white) it makes it alot easier for it slide sideways. Meaning once you start wheelspinning, the LSD, WILL induce a little extra slip angle into the other rear tire, and that'll make the car oversteer, and that'll overcoem the outside tires grip, and cause it to spin a little bit, eventually, it won't happen immidiately, and if you don't spin out it won't stay that way long due to underpowered car, but it will, momentarily, spin both tires and gain alot of drift angle. But if you let the car do this, to stay on the road you'll have to overcorrect a bit and that'll make the car snap into an understeer, or get wildly out of control. (Which by the way you describe your incompitance with the game, sounds like you did) and this is why people think the way the cars handle is wrong, because they didn't even realise that this small mistake could cause such a large problem. But it does.

Seriously, quit making assumptions about games that you barely played and judged by it's cover and didn't even give it a chance. AND DON"T SAY I"M THE SAME ABOUT GT4. I SHOWED I CAN DRIVE IN GT. I just feel it very unrealistic and unsatisfying. I was sliding my fully modded 180sx in GT4 last night drifting Infineon, and it felt so retarded I got frustrated and put Enthu back in to calm my nerves. I needed a jolt of realism after that physics crap fest. In what world can you spin tires HARD and understeer at the same time in a rear wheel drive car set up specifically for drifting?? Wow.
 
The way you phrase this, it makes it sound like it was already oversteering before "the engine RPM rose to redline".
And what makes you assume I don't know what happened?
Do we really have to post it?
  1. You continuously post and defend your usage of an incorrect term for a common trait of RWD cars, then you go ballistic when we call you out on it.
  2. You consistently misunderstand both how the transmission in the particular car in discussion (GT-8) works (whether GT4 models automatics better or not is a moot point, because it isn't a damned automatic) and how the limited slip in the car works.
  3. You say flaws that plague GT4 like a bad rash are rediculously prevalent in EPR, yet absent in GT4 (*cough* *cough* snap oversteer *cough* *cough*). When questioned, you reply that we lack skill.
  4. You admit to not being able to modulate anything correctly, and then say we are wrong when we say we have no problem with it.
  5. You admit to spending just a few hours in EPR and expecting to be an ace at it, and enter a thread spouting things that just aren't true because you haven't spent enough times in the game to get used to it like you have with GT4.
  6. You lead everyone on in saying it was a horrible thing to have a car "burn out" in 4th, when 4th is essentially 2nd.
  7. Backed up nearly every statement you have made with "In GT4 it doesn't work this way, so it must be wrong in Enthusia" or some variation of that theme.
  8. Complained that EPR felt too floaty, then compared it unfavorably to a Codemasters game.
  9. Said that your great skill at the game has managed to overcome every single flaw GT4 has (my personal favorite).
  10. Stated that the ability to go far over real life laptimes in GT4 is a credit to GT4's physics engine, when it is so obviously not.
  11. Aren't able to tell a real life video spliced into an Enthusia replay, despite EPR looking horrible.
  12. Claimed that EPR's power oversteer was just because the rear tires were spinning, and that GT4's was because of chassis balance (which is the best, because it isn't how power oversteer even happens).
  13. Claimed that the physics problems we encountered in GT4 were merely due to lack of skill.
  14. Claimed that physics problems in EPR didn't apply to everybody, and that we shouldn't be able to replicate what you did because we drive differently.
  15. Stated that anyone who though that EPR was realistic was"uneducated, uninformed, ignorant, or those who simply cannot tell what cars do in the real world," while turning around and describing physics terms and how specific parts of a car work incorrectly.
  16. Made a crass blanket statement that hasn't applied in over 7 years (those Sega statements pissed me off royally, and weren't even true).
  17. Had the balls to complain about EPR's menu system in relation to GT4's.
  18. Said multiple times that we are fanboys because we accept that EPR is as good as GT4 is in different areas (and I'd love to see you find a post I've made that I've said EPR is better than GT4).
  19. Stated that Wolfe should "play GT4" when he very clearly showed a video displaying his criticisms.
  20. Made a derogatory statement about my age and driving ability, despite that not having to do anything with the topic at hand nor you knowing anything about my driving ability.
The short version? We don't think you really have any idea what you are talking about in either game, and I personally think you are just angry because you jumped into EPR expecting a pure GT4 clone and was angry when you realised that you couldn't play EPR well enough in an hour or so to suit your tastes.
Either way, your continual bashing of me, Wolfe and rsmith tells me that you are simply too stubborn to even acknowledge that GT4 is a crap simulation in certain areas, and that EPR is a crap sim in others; making the agreement performed time and time again that they are roughly equal in the grand scheme of things irrelavent to you. Good day, and have fun playing the Real Driving simulator.
 
Last time I left you, I made this report:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2367905&postcount=146

Now it's time for something three or so months in the making. My updated GT4 report.


Test Car: 2005 Ford Mustang GT

I've redone this test per the request of Super Moderator, Scaff. My GT4 test basically was done with Economy Tires. I wanted to go with Comfort or Road Tires all the way around, but I figured I'd change things up. I'll modify my test. Instead of ten laps, I'll do five by mixing up the tire choices on my test mount. I made sure to turn off ASC and TCS for my GT4 runs. I will essentially do five laps each on all three sets of Standard Tires. I will log a report to let you know how this all goes. And do remember that you can read my write up to see how my Enthusia opinion stacks up.



LAP TIMES - TSUKUBA DRY
LEGEND:

Economy
Comfort
Road Tires
Best Time

ECONOMY TIRES
01 - 1:14.537
02 - 1:14.326
03 - 1:16.225
04 - 1:14.104
05 - 1:13.783


COMFORT TIRES
01 - 1:09.959
02 - 1:10.427
03 - 1:09.991
04 - 1:10.888
05 - 1:11.913


ROAD TIRES
01 - 1:09.566
02 - 1:08:431
03 - 1:08.440
04 - 1:09.276
05 - 1:08.826


Summary:
ECONOMY TIRES Let's do this! Economy Tires are the lowest grade of tire since they have very poor traction. Their only redeeming quality is that they offer a lot of tire life. Think of them as the Racing Hard tires. My tires were squealing a lot more than usual with these sets on. I made careful adjustments to correct my handling out of corners effectively. And my time to beat was 1:14.537. Each corner seemed like a challenge to keep all four tires on the track. It felt like I was racing a Nextel Cup car than an agile pony car. I stayed in the 74-second lap times by shaving off 0:00.211 from my lap time. So make it 1:14.326 the new fast time. The off-track bug finally bit my beautifully blue Mustang when I understeered like hell. It wasn't until the quick chicane until I got it back on the road. I lost it again out of the final corner. Now I clocked in a 1:16.225. For 95% of Lap 3, I've trailed the ghost car. But thanks to some great driving onto the front stretch, I hit a 1:14.104. The motto- NEVER give up! I cracked the 73-second mark with a wonderful 1:13.783 time to end my Economy session.

COMFORT TIRES Get ready to go for a comfortable ride with my Comfort Tire report. This Japanese proving ground wanted to test my Mustang in this test. It's the same Sonic Blue Mustang as I looked to succeed in this configuration. I got MUCH better traction with these Comfort Tires with this Mustang. I was able to pilot the car much better without having to continually countersteer or seriously adjust throttle input. Lap 1 was perfect except for the final corner. Time to beat with Comfort Tires was 1:09.959. So I've reached 69-second times by spanking my Economy result by -3.824. I had a little oversteer as I had two tires leave the road. My second-lap time took me back into the 70-second range as I pulled a 1:10.427. The entry into the first corner was too aggressive and paid for it. I finally caught up with the ghost car, but this time, I lost. Lap 3 was a 1:09.991. Top time is still 1:09.959. I tried to be more careful in Turn 1 for Lap 4, but I end up going off-road and almost had my left side kiss the barrier. I know I'm using comfortable tires, but I don't want to get too comfortable with ANY wall. Lap 4 was brutal as I clocked in a 1:10.888. Now I got one more lap to make a better pass than on Lap 2. Didn't happen. I end with a 1:11.913 after being too aggressive. At least I could better be aggressive and not sacrifice good handling.

ROAD TIRES Now let's go for the Road Tires to close out this Dry Track report. I trailed the Comfort ghost car for most of the race. I nearly thrown the car off the track after the final corner. New best lap time is 1:09.566. Traction is sweet as I pulled a no-doubter- a 1:08.431. Lap 2 looked a lot better than Lap 1. Coming out of the corner on Lap 3, I didn't have enough accleration to beat out the ghost car. So I got myself a 1:08.440. I trailed by only 0.006 of a second! Bad driving most of the way around led to a horrible 1:09.276 on Lap 4. But I still remained below 70-second lap times. The ghost had a considerable speed advantage when I crossed the line to start Lap 5. Can I pull some One-Lap Magic? Not a chance. I ended my going off-track in the final corner and ended my fifth lap with a 1:08.826.


OVERVIEW:
Economy Tires were damned abysmal. I could slide around nicely, but unable to get a grip of the road when I really need a grip of the road. The Mustang understeered like a Nextel Cup "stock" car. Comfort Tires gave me better traction than the Economy Tires. I could actually note that I wasn't getting as good of acceleration with these tires compared to Economy Tires. The Road Tires are the best tires for a reason- the best traction of the Standard tires coupled with better acceleration. They give you that edge you need when you need traction an acceleration.





LAP TIMES - TSUKUBA WET
It's a beautiful day here in Houston today. Unfortunately, I'll be racing on a track with ugly skies.

LEGEND:

Economy
Comfort
Road Tires
Best Time

ECONOMY TIRES
01 - 1:23.105
02 - 1:23.702
03 - 1:22.184
04 - 1:22.439
05 - 1:22.072


COMFORT TIRES
01 - 1:19.673
02 - 1:18.628
03 - 1:19.053
04 - 1:18.418
05 - 1:17.939


ROAD TIRES
01 - 1:17.009
02 - 1:17.276
03 - 1:15.902
04 - 1:15.164
05 - 1:17.528


ECONOMY TIRES Tsukuba looked nice under clear skies in GT4. Now let's see how it is when it's wet. Poor-traction tires coupled with a wet track makes for an incredible nightmare. The car flew off the track at... you guessed it- the final corner. Maybe that final corner should be banked like an oval since it's like an oval corner. So a 1:23.105 was the time to beat. I had understeer AND oversteer with my Mustang. It's okay to have both, but better to have one than the other (I prefer more oversteer than understeer, personally). I was off the course yet again in the same corner as my car just can't stay on the track in the corners. Make lap 2 a 1:23.702. I finally passed the ghost car out of the hairpin at the southeastern end of the track. I didn't give it back as I clocked a 1:22.184 out of Lap 3. I led the ghost car for most of Lap 4 except the southeastern hairpin. And the ghost car never gave back the lead as I crossed the line with a 1:22.439. I went off-course under the Dunlop Bridge twice. Didn't matter in the end because I closed out with a 1:22.072.

COMFORT TIRES Comfort Tires don't sound too comfortable with wet conditions. Aww... poor Economy Lap Record... I cleared Lap 1 with a 1:19.673! I was still in the 70-second range after my spells of 80-second runs on Economy Tires. I stayed in the 70's with a 1:18.628 for Lap 2. Bad driving in Turn 1 didn't matter on Lap 3 as I was able to clear the corner better and pass the ghost car. I still did worse than my last lap by mailing in a 1:19.053. I had a long tussle with the ghost car after Intermediate 2. I still won with a 1:18.418. Now it's one more lap. Turn 1 is more like a double-apex corner. I ran over some ant hills as I took my Mustang off the road. I celebrated too early out of Hairpin 2 and almost blown the final corner. But my best pass was on my final lap with a 1:17.939.

ROAD TIRES I think it's time to throw down one last time. I put on some Gnarls Barkley and tried to better my Comfort Tire times. Just like Gnarls Barkley, I went "Crazy" on Lap 1 as I cashed in a 1:17.009 for Lap 1. I almost spun out twice on Lap 2. I ended Lap 2 with a 1:17.276. I had the winning touch on Lap 3 as I was money. I clocked in a 1:15.902. I was even more money on Lap 4 with a 1:15.164. I tried early braking on my final lap for Lap 5, but it didn't pay off. I almost spun out as well as smacking the wall. Two off-courses led to my worst time, a 1:17.528 for Lap 5.


Summary:
Wet courses result in even less traction. When you need the best of traction, rain is NOT the answer. Wet courses takes washes away the rubber on the track. So getting a grip of the road is even more challenging. I even had greater appreciation of levels of handling as well as acceleration with the different tires. I had better traction as I moved up from Economy Tires. My best lap time from the wet was about 10 seconds off from my Dry times. Of course, it isn't like wet courses are better for pure handling.

Revised GT4 Overview:
(to be updated soon...)
 
[*]You continuously post and defend your usage of an incorrect term for a common trait of RWD cars, then you go ballistic when we call you out on it.
And you have all failed to list a better alternative, that describes in proper detail, exactly what happened.
[*]You consistently misunderstand both how the transmission in the particular car in discussion (GT-8) works (whether GT4 models automatics better or not is a moot point, because it isn't a damned automatic) and how the limited slip in the car works.
I never determind the car to be the 8-speed. You claimed "it must be". You (meaning one of the 3 of you) have also claimed that that car is capable of one-wheel burnouts. (IRL)
[*]You say flaws that plague GT4 like a bad rash are rediculously prevalent in EPR, yet absent in GT4 (*cough* *cough* snap oversteer *cough* *cough*). When questioned, you reply that we lack skill.
No, you, gave 2 definitions to the term "snap oversteer". If it was a "technical term" as you say, it wouldn't have 2 different definitions
[*]You admit to not being able to modulate anything correctly, and then say we are wrong when we say we have no problem with it.
Dare you to quote me saying I can't modulate.
[*]You admit to spending just a few hours in EPR and expecting to be an ace at it, and enter a thread spouting things that just aren't true because you haven't spent enough times in the game to get used to it like you have with GT4.
It doesn't take 3 months to realize 80mph "power oversteer that cause rpm to raise to rev-limiter turns" are unrealistic in certain cars.
[*]You lead everyone on in saying it was a horrible thing to have a car "burn out" in 4th, when 4th is essentially 2nd.
so, are you suggesting the normal car is a 4-speed? (4th=2nd, must mean, 8th=4th, right?) or are you so blind that you don't realize the car reaches over 100mph in 4th? does the manual reach 100 in 2nd? how about 3rd? who's leading everyone on?
[*]Backed up nearly every statement you have made with "In GT4 it doesn't work this way, so it must be wrong in Enthusia" or some variation of that theme.
Yes, that is exactly what I've done. A quote, please.
[*]Complained that EPR felt too floaty, then compared it unfavorably to a Codemasters game.
I don't know what a codemasters game is. sorry.
[*]Said that your great skill at the game has managed to overcome every single flaw GT4 has (my personal favorite).
No, I said that your inept skill has caused you to be unable to control oversteering situations.
[*]Stated that the ability to go far over real life laptimes in GT4 is a credit to GT4's physics engine, when it is so obviously not.
Quote that, you are unbelievable with this.
I did ask if anybody had any GT4 times, on N2's, where all 4 tires stayed on track for the whole lap, and all I heard was crickets.

You drive EPR to strict rules, making all 4 tires stay on track almost constantly, and yet complain when GT4 times are faster with only 2 wheels on the track. Yes, I find that double-standard very funny. and partisan. Hence, fan-boy terminology.
[*]Aren't able to tell a real life video spliced into an Enthusia replay, despite EPR looking horrible.
And where was that? that's how many misquotes? 5? (you made an assanine assumption when I mentioned the video, I never said anything to insinuate that both videos were real, and I am not responsible for your misinterpretation.)
[*]Claimed that EPR's power oversteer was just because the rear tires were spinning, and that GT4's was because of chassis balance (which is the best, because it isn't how power oversteer even happens).
IF, you could quote anything resembling that, I'll bet I was referring to just "oversteer", and not power oversteer. that's 7.
[*]Claimed that the physics problems we encountered in GT4 were merely due to lack of skill.
Depends on which ones/what cars. You do realize that one car misbehaving out of 450 could simply be a misproggramed car, and have nothing to do with the game physics, don't you?
[*]Claimed that physics problems in EPR didn't apply to everybody, and that we shouldn't be able to replicate what you did because we drive differently.
Misquote number 8.
[*]Stated that anyone who though that EPR was realistic was"uneducated, uninformed, ignorant, or those who simply cannot tell what cars do in the real world," while turning around and describing physics terms and how specific parts of a car work incorrectly.
And yet you have still failed to better my terminology.
[*]Made a crass blanket statement that hasn't applied in over 7 years (those Sega statements pissed me off royally, and weren't even true).
It's been that long since I drove over sand in a video game that felt like wet pavement.
[*]Had the balls to complain about EPR's menu system in relation to GT4's.
Damn straight I did.
[*]Said multiple times that we are fanboys because we accept that EPR is as good as GT4 is in different areas (and I'd love to see you find a post I've made that I've said EPR is better than GT4).
No, I said you are fanboys when you said I was wrong, and at the same time said you didn't know what I was talking about. If you don't know, then you can't know I'm wrong. That's partisan judgment.
[*]Stated that Wolfe should "play GT4" when he very clearly showed a video displaying his criticisms.
Yes, because I actually meant that he never, ever played it:idea:
[*]Made a derogatory statement about my age and driving ability, despite that not having to do anything with the topic at hand nor you knowing anything about my driving ability.
I made no statement about your age, or driving ability, until you made a statement, about my age. And yet you're the one who seems upset. Don't start what you can't finish.
[/LIST]The short version? We don't think you really have any idea what you are talking about in either game, and I personally think you are just angry because you jumped into EPR expecting a pure GT4 clone and was angry when you realised that you couldn't play EPR well enough in an hour or so to suit your tastes.
Either way, your continual bashing of me, Wolfe and rsmith tells me that you are simply too stubborn to even acknowledge that GT4 is a crap simulation in certain areas, and that EPR is a crap sim in others; making the agreement performed time and time again that they are roughly equal in the grand scheme of things irrelavent to you. Good day, and have fun playing the Real Driving simulator.
[/QUOTE]And I'll bet you I can show you 2 personal insults from any of you, for every one I threw back.
And like I said, you want to insult somebody, but you want to cry when they insult you back.
I have no problem not insulting you, or anybody else, but when people act the way you 3 have in this thread, then I will treat you the same as you have treated me. And I've done nothing different from that here. If I have, quote me insulting someone who had not yet insulted me Is that to much to ask?
Total misquote count - 9.
Wolfe
Short term memory problem?
Nice work.
And good for those who thought this line of misquotes was clever:tup:
 
And you have all failed to list a better alternative, that describes in proper detail, exactly what happened.
Since when does "burnout" describe in proper detail, exactly what happened? As Toronado said,
Toronado
First of all, tell me what you mean by burning out. Do you mean actually burning out, a little tire spin, or power oversteer?
Anyway, here are your alternatives:
high-speed oversteer/wheelspin
It's called power oversteer
if I turn and floor it in 3rd I can set the car sideways at 60mph and wheelspin the piss out of it
I'd class it as excessive wheelspin
And if those aren't specific enough:
4th-gear 80mph both-tires-spinning bouncing-off-redline powerslide



I never determind the car to be the 8-speed. You claimed "it must be".
That's easy:
Yes! It is the 8-speed!
I know you changed your mind later, but the fact is that the 350GT (which is the 6-speed manual transmission model in EPR) cannot do what it is you're talking about.



Dare you to quote me saying I can't modulate.
You're correct, Deathclown. That's 1 misquote:
I can modulate the throttle perfectly fine



so, are you suggesting the normal car is a 4-speed? (4th=2nd, must mean, 8th=4th, right?) or are you so blind that you don't realize the car reaches over 100mph in 4th? does the manual reach 100 in 2nd? how about 3rd? who's leading everyone on?
And you're the one complaining about people taking you literally :lol: :
Yes, because I actually meant that he never, ever played it:idea:


Yes, that is exactly what I've done. A quote, please.
Here you go:
By the way, I was driving in GT4 this last time, and it did not Do that thing where it's kinda like power oversteer, but worse, but I can't call it a burnout, because that's childish, but now my post looks as stupid as you seem to think is more proper.
It did powerslide, but it wasn't "burning out", so to speak.
EPR did burn out, this is extremely noticable after the turn, when the speedo drop from up over 100, back down to 75-85. (depending on exit speed)




I don't know what a codemasters game is. sorry.
...Codemaster's games...(Colin McRae, TOCA Race Driver)



No, I said that your inept skill has caused you to be unable to control oversteering situations.
I believe Toronado is referring to the fact that whenever we bring up a flaw with GT4, you say that you've never encountered it, and attribute our "flaw" to our lack of skills. To be fair, this has been going both ways. It's just the nature of these things.



Quote that, you are unbelievable with this.
Perhaps Toronado meant this:
Wolfe
Enthusia's 'Ring laptimes are much closer to reality
Maybe for you, but I can take you to plenty of people who can't run fast enough with GT4, and people who burn real times by 10-20 seconds, like myself.
I'm pretty sure I know what you meant to say. That's 2 misquotes, just barely.




I did ask if anybody had any GT4 times, on N2's, where all 4 tires stayed on track for the whole lap, and all I heard was crickets.

You drive EPR to strict rules, making all 4 tires stay on track almost constantly, and yet complain when GT4 times are faster with only 2 wheels on the track. Yes, I find that double-standard very funny. and partisan. Hence, fan-boy terminology.
It's hard to catch everything in this thread these days. Anyway, you said "to EPR's black flag rule" which I'm pretty sure isn't any more strict than the rules of the GTPlanet WRS, which has plenty of laptimes for various cars in various states of tune. As for the competition to those times, I assure you, you'd have to cut corners like mad to even come close to the GT4 times in EPR, or use a much, much quicker car.




And where was that? that's how many misquotes? 5? (you made an assanine assumption when I mentioned the video, I never said anything to insinuate that both videos were real, and I am not responsible for your misinterpretation.)
Here you go:
Remember when I said the graphics weren't that good? everythings so bubbly, I can't even tell a Miata from a Suzuki Cap.
Yes, a miata can "power-oversteer" at 40-50 mph. If you force it. If you don't want to drift a miata, it is very easy not to. you can even go full-throttle.
A. You couldn't tell it was a Miata by looking at the real-world car, and
B. You couldn't tell that the real-world Miata was having no trouble drifting in the exact same fashion as the Enthusia Miata, with very similar throttle/steering inputs.



IF, you could quote anything resembling that, I'll bet I was referring to just "oversteer", and not power oversteer. that's 7.
The contradiction here merits mention despite the "power-oversteer" vs "oversteer" triviality:
I'm sure the same feat could be accomplished with GT4, the difference is, in GT4, they programmed it right, and the suzuki would oversteer due to chassis/engine layout, along with suspension, and in EPR, they did a burnout, because everybody knows 60hp cars spin like a top if you floor it mid-turn at 55mph. (sarcasm)
I really hate the way they claim "real driving physics", showing a video of two cars, one real and one fake, wherein it is quite clear that the real car is getting half it's oversteer from chassis, and steering input, and the game car is all from spinning the rear tires.
That doesn't even make any sense. You can't exclude steering input from the EPR drifting, because it was being given the same kind of steering input. As for the "chassis" part of the equation, more commonly known as handling balance, the car was going fairly slow for "half" of the oversteer to be caused by that. After all, you said yourself (quoted just above this set of quotes) that the Miata could be very easily controlled, even at full-throttle. Yet later you said the real-world Miata's drifting was "half"-caused by the handling balance.




Misquote number 8.
Nope.
you're clip is just way to long, and I don't care.
Do you know why? Because you can't show me what happened when I drove the car




And yet you have still failed to better my terminology.
It's not just terminology:
the torque converter is a group of clutches, or "clutch packs", which simulate the exact same thing as a regular clutch on a manual, on the driver has no intervention.
most cars come with 2200-2500 rpm torque converters, stock.
What this means, is that if your current gear drops the engine rpms below that amount, when you press the gas pedal, the converter slips, increasing rpm, essentially the same as bogging a clutch on a manual. The harder you press the pedal, the closer to the converter limit, (2200), it will be.
Now, if you are full throttle, at 5000rpm, on a car with a 2200rpm torque converter, your transmission will not be slipping, the torque converter is past it's limit, and you are simply going 5000rpm, and it cannot increase that by "converting", unless it is broken/worn down/going bad.
Yes, 350Z's, Infinity G35's, and Skyline's have limited slip. How the hell do you think traction control works?



No, I said you are fanboys when you said I was wrong, and at the same time said you didn't know what I was talking about. If you don't know, then you can't know I'm wrong. That's partisan judgment.
I believe I already explained this to you:
I understand perfectly what the point of your message is. It's when you try to describe or explain something that things can get muddy.
Notice I even said "can." We don't always understand your reasoning, but that doesn't mean we don't understand what you're saying, or even what your reasons are.




If I have, quote me insulting someone who had not yet insulted me Is that to much to ask?
Easiest one yet. :lol:
Anybody that claims EPR "more realistic" than GT4, needs to get 3 things: 1. A driver's license. 2. A car. 3. A road. After that, all the have to do is mix the three things, and they'll realize what a peice of crap EPR is.


So that's 1 or 2 misquotes, out of 20 statements. Not a bad ratio for such a convuluted thread. Anyway, I think I've had about all I can take from you, Deathclown66. Reading your hastily-typed and seemingly anger-fueled posts is hard enough -- deciphering or understanding some of the ideas that pop up in your writing is even harder (I still don't know what you were on about with "tirespin" and those numbers in post #177). You've proven that you're not the most reliable source for knowledge the mechanical components of a car, and your statements about the handling of a car are inconsistent enough to support your side of the argument in different instances (consider the Miata example above). You jumped into an Enthusia forum ranting about how much it sucks and were surprised when everyone lashed back at you (I can't say I've ever expected positive comments when I decide to go trolling 💡 ), and now you're clinging to any shred of credibility that remains by flat-out lying as you attempt to shoot down Toronado's quite-accurate summary of your posts in the last few pages.

You can call me as many names as you like, but if you would like to say that I'm an unfriendly and unfair physics debate participant, you can save your breath, because that would be flat-out inaccurate. Friendly debates are had by friendly people, and Scaff, live4speed, Toronado, Hun200kmh, niky, and I, among many others, despite our different viewpoints, are perfect examples of how that can work.

If I, in turn, may be so brash, you, Deathclown66, were resistant to contributing positively from post #177. If you were to never return to this thread, I doubt you'd be missed by anyone. You can chalk that up to "fanboyism" if you'd like, but it would still be a favorable outcome for the end of this whole thing. :lol:
 
And you have all failed to list a better alternative, that describes in proper detail, exactly what happened.
So, 5 alternatives isn't enough? You need 6?

Deathclown66
No, you, gave 2 definitions to the term "snap oversteer". If it was a "technical term" as you say, it wouldn't have 2 different definitions
Which is great, but many argue it has 3 definitions. So, yeah.

Deathclown66
Dare you to quote me saying I can't modulate.
Deathclown66
Steering - GT4 - uses the pressure sensitive buttons well, and allows you to steer smoothly and evenly, without loads of practice.
Deathclown66
EPR - A Nightmare. jagged, pointy, slow in response, and drastic in measure, when combined with excessive wheel spin during cornering, and an overly-heightened snap-oversteer on even modest powered RWD's, create an experience that'll scare the racing dreams out of kids near and far.
Now, maybe on on the hooch, but the only thing that can be is problems modulating the steering. But of course, EPR must be to blame.

Deathclown66
Yes, that is exactly what I've done. A quote, please.
You couldn't have made it easier if you tried. You even made a damned heading for the area where you did it:
Deathclown66
GT4 Vs. EPR
Steering - GT4 - uses the pressure sensitive buttons well, and allows you to steer smoothly and evenly, without loads of practice.

EPR - A Nightmare. jagged, pointy, slow in response, and drastic in measure, when combined with excessive wheel spin during cornering, and an overly-heightened snap-oversteer on even modest powered RWD's, create an experience that'll scare the racing dreams out of kids near and far.[/INDENT]


Wheelspin - GT4 - a little to much spin, that seems way worse than it is, due to a highly overexagerated loss of grip upon wheelspin, but evened out quite a bit due to lack of increase when turning.
EPR - Sticks like glue when straight, spins 3X when turning. pretty much the opposite of GT4.

Cornering - GT4 - Maybe a little much grip, depending what tires you use.
EPR - seemed decent, unless you use the go-paddle, then all hell breaks loose.

Speed - Can't test cars in EPR for crap, so we just don't know, at least I don't, cause I'm not bothering to try to match speeds on the few tracks they share in common.

Braking - neither is right, EPR went overboard trying to be realistic, and disabled all cars ABS, and GT4 did the opposite, not enough realism, and gave all cars ABS, and far as I know, there ain't nothing you can do to fix either, but you can make GT4 better.

All-in-all, I'd say while GT4 spins tires to much going straight, it also doesn't make them increase spin enough in corners, (all cars, even FF), the FFs have it the worst because they have the straight-line the worst. What this does though, is even out, to a degree, so that while cornering, you actually have a close-to-life amount of grip, because it starts to high, but the cornering doesnt increase it enough, meaning it should be Straight - 5. Cornering - 5 total = 10. instead, GT4 gives you this: straight - 2 cornering - 8 total = 10
EPR, on the other hand, is more like this: straight - 7 cornering - 2 total = 9
So while GT4's system disables FF's from competing with others, EPR's just makes FFs the only cars close to realistic.

Deathclown66
I don't know what a codemasters game is. sorry.
Oh, I truly am sorry. I guees my assumption that being on a forum makes you able to read the damned developer of a game you've played was simply too high for poor Deathclown. I will, however, highlight it for your benefit.
Deathclown66
And in Toca 3, the upgrades just don't seem to do much, along with tuning.
Deathclown66
On side notes, the tracks suck, the cars are made extra big, so the moderate graphics seem better then they are, everything looked fake around me, not a single time did it look like I was on a race track, compared to GT4 or even Toca.
Deathclown66
Some have some great features, specifically toca 3, but the general lack of ability to chose what/where/when you do things is annoying, aside from the inability to drive stock cars, for the most part.

Deathclown66
You drive EPR to strict rules, making all 4 tires stay on track almost constantly, and yet complain when GT4 times are faster with only 2 wheels on the track. Yes, I find that double-standard very funny. and partisan. Hence, fan-boy terminology.
So I guess race organizers are partisan for not allowing you to rip up the grass on the side of track or by forcing you to actually stay on the track in real life. Oh well.

Deathclown66
And yet you have still failed to better my terminology.
True. I have failed to provide it. Wolfe and rsmith, however, did not fail to do so. At least when you described power oversteer as a burnout you were technically correct. Not so with your descriptions of automatic transmissions and LSD's.

Deathclown66
It's been that long since I drove over sand in a video game that felt like wet pavement.
Which is great, except for the fact that you bringing Sega into this had nothing at all to do with that at all. If I remember correctly (hell, I just know), you stated originally that the tuning options were similar to Sega's. Which hasn't been true since 1999. So, yeah.

Deathclown66
Damn straight I did.
Well, maybe I'm the only one that would prefer a poor menu design to seven sub menus to buy a new car (after you hunt for the manafactueres location).

Deathclown66
No, I said you are fanboys when you said I was wrong, and at the same time said you didn't know what I was talking about. If you don't know, then you can't know I'm wrong. That's partisan judgment.
Which would be all well and good if I hadn't owned Enthusia for more than a year less time than GT4, or if I hadn't admitted to being better at GT4 than I am in Enthusia.

Deathclown66
I made no statement about your age, or driving ability, until you made a statement, about my age. And yet you're the one who seems upset. Don't start what you can't finish
So, right then. Unless I'm making posts in my sleep that later disapeer:
Deathclown66
Likewise for this: How old are you three? (Wolf, Tornado, & Rsmithdrift)
That was the first post anyone had made in relation to age. Note who made it. Then we have this chestnut that happened in the discussion of ABS brakes (which shouldn't have happened when you yourself said that EPR disabled ABS):
Deathclown66
You'll learn that soon enough though, I guess.
To which I responded with this
Myself
Oh, clever. So, despite knowing nothing about my driving record, the amount of classes I've taken or my technical knowledge about automobiles in general, you make blanket statement about my age in relation to my driving skill in a discussion that has nothing to do with my driving skill in real life. You are a pretty clever guy.
And in case you try to say that this was a mis-quote, this is you confirming what you meant in response to my response:
Deathclown66
You think cars do burnouts at "ludacris speed", what else would I think?

Deathclown66
And I'll bet you I can show you 2 personal insults from any of you, for every one I threw back.
Go right the hell a ahead. Make it your life goal for all I care. And I gaurantee you'll find maybe 1. Much less the 4 that came from insulting my age the two times you did so alone.

Deathclown66
And like I said, you want to insult somebody, but you want to cry when they insult you back.
Which would be all well and good had I insulted you first. But your first post that I read in this thread says this:
Deathclown66
EPR is for the uneducated, uninformed, ignorant, or those who simply cannot tell what cars do in the real world, and translate to what they should be doing in a video game.
It does not do wonders for your plea of innocence, now, does it? Especially since I warned you in my first post that that would be a target later on.

Deathclown66
I have no problem not insulting you, or anybody else, but when people act the way you 3 have in this thread, then I will treat you the same as you have treated me. And I've done nothing different from that here
Except that we've given you facts and demonstrations and you've said that they don't apply because we are fanboys, and insulted us first when we disagreed with you. THough I must say, I feel sorry for your psyche if presenting facts counts as an insult as you seem to be implying.

Deathclown66
If I have, quote me insulting someone who had not yet insulted me Is that to much to ask?
Strike One:
Deathclown66
EPR is for the uneducated, uninformed, ignorant, or those who simply cannot tell what cars do in the real world, and translate to what they should be doing in a video game.
Strike Two:
Deathclown66
Anybody that claims EPR "more realistic" than GT4, needs to get 3 things: 1. A driver's license. 2. A car. 3. A road. After that, all the have to do is mix the three things, and they'll realize what a peice of crap EPR is.
Strike Three:
Deathclown66
Likewise for this: How old are you three? (Wolf, Tornado, & Rsmithdrift)
You're out.

Now, to truly show how much blind fanboyism you posess, here is a couple of posts.This one is on ABS brakes and the brake balance controller:
Deathclown66
It's still better than nothing, so why did you post this, you know its better than nothing.
And this is what you view on Enthusia's inclusion of a clutch:
Deathclown66
and yet they have a clutch button.....ingenius programming.
This is your opinion on Wolfe's complaints that GT4 has problems with modulation:
Deathclown66
Again, I can do this, so for the very reason you claim I will "embarass myself" by posting a video, it sounds like you'd do the exact same with GT4, since you can't do these things: Modulate brakes, Control over/understeer, Accelerate without massive wheelspin, go fast enough on the 'Ring to get moved by any bumps, etc. (I could go on)
And then we get to Enthusia where you describe having the same problem, but it's the game's fault and not the player's.
Deathclown66
4. Braking is absurd, and stupid, cars with ABS achieve full lock-up constantly at low speeds, and plow like dump trucks, and if you don't lock them, you just don't slow down....
Deathclown66
EPR - A Nightmare. jagged, pointy, slow in response, and drastic in measure, when combined with excessive wheel spin during cornering, and an overly-heightened snap-oversteer on even modest powered RWD's, create an experience that'll scare the racing dreams out of kids near and far.
Deathclown66
EPR - Sticks like glue when straight, spins 3X when turning. pretty much the opposite of GT4
That says all that needs to be said about your "points."
 
I read Wolfes post, but didn't bother with Tornados after the first mile. Right where he started complaining about race organizers not wanting grass torn up, implying that I was stating that standard GT4 olr rules are what should always be driven by.... At least, I guess that's how he took it.
Why? Because with all the tiny, partial bits screwed in so tightly together, it would literally take hours to find exactly what all those quotes are about, or what they are mentioning.
This entire thread has gone out of hand, countless times have my statments been misinterpreted, and then when I clarify, you try your damndest to put the blame on me, rather than accept that you made an honest mistake.
You've attempted to make fun of me for not knowing who makes TOCA, because lord knows every physics master of the universe knows what company makes each video game.
4th-gear 80mph both-tires-spinning bouncing-off-redline powerslide
That was the only acceptable substitute, by the way, and It's very sad you listed rsmithdrift's "burn the piss out of whatever", as a better alternative.

Anyway, since I made a slightly heated first post about EPR, and it rubbed your EPR feelings the wrong way, fanboys or not, it's quite clear that this discussion cannot be continued in any constructive manner. Just a constant repetitive nightmare, where everybody trys to "get the best" of the other guy, and while there's 3 of you for me to respond to, it's far to much work for the minimal gain (if any) I can get from "clarifying" anything that you still do not understand.
So, in closing, good day, enjoy EPR, as I enjoy GT4, to each his own.
 
^ Wow, now you're just digging..... Have you actually gone through this thread and actually read your own posts??? I think you should.

And John, awesomeness man. 👍

Edited by me for AUP reasons. Don't want to get myself in trouble now..... but still, dude, seriously, making a last ditch attempt to amend things by pointing out how crazy this thread has gotten doesn't change the fact that your hard headedness and contradictions are what caused it in the first place.....

PS. And Wolfe, ........ NVM, I see you fixed it now.
 
PS. And Wolfe, I'm surprised at you, you misquoted me, you did it for the right reason, but I wasn't saying that to explain what he did, I was using it to explain what would happen if I drove like that in my car, so now it looks wierd and retarded in that quote...... great.

Sorry...I didn't mean for it to look "weird and retarded."

In any case, rsmithdrift, I do hope you realize that this last post of yours, here, shows very blatant disregard for the warning that Scaff gave us here. The least you could have done was to show some tact, man. :P
 
I read Wolfes post, but didn't bother with Tornados after the first mile. Right where he started complaining about race organizers not wanting grass torn up, implying that I was stating that standard GT4 olr rules are what should always be driven by.... At least, I guess that's how he took it.
Yeah, I will admit to pulling that one out of my ass. But its quite a shame, because it really would bring to the light the crap you actually posted, such as your lies about how I was the one who brough up age when you brought it up twice and no on else did.
Deathclown66
Why? Because with all the tiny, partial bits screwed in so tightly together, it would literally take hours to find exactly what all those quotes are about, or what they are mentioning.
I think that is political speak for trying to weasel your way out of blame.
Deathclown66
You've attempted to make fun of me for not knowing who makes TOCA, because lord knows every physics master of the universe knows what company makes each video game.
Well, your certainly not a physics master, and I wouldn't think it would be too hard to look at the title screen.
Deathclown66
it's far to much work for the minimal gain (if any) I can get from "clarifying" anything that you still do not understand.
Or that you yourself don't understand.
 
WHen i first had ENthusia i remember trying out the Silvia and quickly switching to another car because i had too much of a hard time pushing it without being all over the place. Now that i'm a veteran at the game i recently picked it again. Now i have learned to control a proper FR car and i can honestly say that i'm a better driver - at least in the game.

I wish someone would try this test also: go to Tsukuba and use the BMW GTR from both GT4 and ENthusia. On a straight line the car would seem to oversteer in GT4, but when you get to that last corner before the straight, the car would understeer itself out of the track in GT4, whereas in Enthusia, if you keep your foot on the throttle, you'll eventually lose the back end as you should in real life.

Each time i go back to GT4 i try to drive teh cars as i think they should be driven, but they never feel right and i can't enjoy the game anymore.

I also remember the first time playing Enthusia i was like "oh my god.. this is so crap... its nothing like GT4..." mainly because I jumped in Enthusia and straight away tried the Corvette, and it was just instantly 180* spin after the other, and for a good while i was only racing with the AWD's namely the Evo VI TME...

As time passed with the Driving Force Pro I realised what I had been missing out on.. as on Controller GT4 feels better than EPR with Controller, but on a steeringwheel, nothing touches EPR.

GT4 to me is noobed physics, not just about the immense amount of grip available on the cars, not being able to even drift properly, the fact every car single leggers, not proper LSD and when you do a burnout, or a launch, GT4 feels like you're spinning in the spot.. not actually gaining momentum which is the way it should be done, and EPR does it.

The only way I really woke up to EPR was with my love for watching BMI', Best Motoring monthly's, and if anybody noticed, a Silvia S13 for example would take the first corner in Tsukuba on the second lap, and actually enter it sideways and drift it... and in EPR you can do exactly the same angle for angle, yet in GT4... trying to get a car with 200HP car to spin is nearly impossible, and if you do get that to happen, it will be wheelspinning like as though it isn't moving... like as if once the car broke traction it was suddenly wheelspinning on ice... not tarmac.

GT4 is still all in all a great game, but it has to cater for a very large market... which is where its weaknesses are.

To me GT4 feels like it has way too much grip and some people said something about the tyre types being redone from GT3... don't know but something isn't right with them. You can jump off EPR and drive GT4, but you can't do the reverse without becoming a complete noob on a Steering Wheel that is.
 
I agree with pretty much everything you said, vas85. 👍

...when you do a burnout, or a launch, GT4 feels like you're spinning in the spot.. not actually gaining momentum which is the way it should be done, and EPR does it...

...if you do get that to happen, it will be wheelspinning like as though it isn't moving... like as if once the car broke traction it was suddenly wheelspinning on ice... not tarmac.
That's a good way to explain it, actually. I'll have to remember that.

As time passed with the Driving Force Pro I realised what I had been missing out on.. as on Controller GT4 feels better than EPR with Controller, but on a steeringwheel, nothing touches EPR.
I still personally feel that with enough patience and practice, anyone who can drive EPR with a wheel could drive with the Dual Shock 2 as well. I can understand how frustrating that can seem, though, so I don't push people to do it.

Still, I find it far more frustrating to play GT4 with any type of controller.

To me GT4 feels like it has way too much grip and some people said something about the tyre types being redone from GT3... don't know but something isn't right with them.
Have you played GT3? Recently? If you compare the two closely you can feel where changes were made. With equivalent tires in each case, of course (simulation tires are probably N2's or something).
 
Welcome, vas85. Your journey towards "liking" Enthusia is an experience shared by others. As someone once put it, EPR grows on you.

Toronado, that depends on the racing games we're talking about. TRD2 and 3 are very easy to play using the analog stick. But EPR is another matter, and my hat's off to wolfe because he can be very fast (one of the fastest) using it.

I only play EPR using the wheel. Can't do it properly with the DS2
 
Welcome, vas85. Your journey towards "liking" Enthusia is an experience shared by others. As someone once put it, EPR grows on you.

I only play EPR using the wheel. Can't do it properly with the DS2

Thanks, I totally agree with you, at first I didn't think it EPR would be so good, but once the steering wheel came I've never looked back.

Now to dreaming EPR2 comes out on PS3!.
 
I would agree if Enthusia allowed you to use the D-pad. I can't stand using the analog sticks in racing games.
Really? I hate using the dpad for anything more than menu funtions...

Hun200kmh
As someone once put it, EPR grows on you.
Agreed.

EPR does grow on you. When I first played it I was a bit upset with how lethargic the car turns if you use a DS2. But I got used to it, in a weird way I think it helps give you the presicion needed with playing EPR.

I should add that I CAN'T play it with a wheel, I just don't get the feedback I need to drive. I'm used to more than just the wheel pulling around. I can't preform in any simulator cause I'm too used to the information my body gives me when I'm actually driving.

I remeber once Wolfe (I'm personal friends with him) was explaining to my girlfreind how to drift and he was mentioning concepts that were completely foreign to me. (to be fair though that was with a controller, you have no choice but to rely on your eyes)
 
But EPR is another matter, and my hat's off to wolfe because he can be very fast (one of the fastest) using it.
Thanks. :) I'm really the most competitive (predictably) with the cars that aren't twitchy or sensitive at the edge. I wouldn't stand a chance against the wheel users in a one-car competition that uses, say, the Shelby Cobra, Caterham, etc....

I should add that I CAN'T play it with a wheel, I just don't get the feedback I need to drive. I'm used to more than just the wheel pulling around. I can't preform in any simulator cause I'm too used to the information my body gives me when I'm actually driving.

I remeber once Wolfe (I'm personal friends with him) was explaining to my girlfreind how to drift and he was mentioning concepts that were completely foreign to me. (to be fair though that was with a controller, you have no choice but to rely on your eyes)
You've always been the type of driver to rely more on your gut and instinct, while I look at things more analytically, using my eyes and ears.
 
Really? I hate using the dpad for anything more than menu funtions...
Yep. Either a wheel or a D-Pad. No sticks. Too much travel, and not sensitive enough. I can be fast with them, but it is too hard for me to be consistent with them. Probably why I suck at Enthusia so much.
 
So I finally got around to trying out GT4 with the wheel today.

WOW! It feels so much better than EPR! The force feedback is far more immersive. The weight of the wheel, the vibration, the texture, all way better on GT4. It feels more like driving a real car.

Initiating a turn, you get a good crisp response from the car in GT4, and the weight of the FF feels like you're connected with the road. In contrast to EPR which has mushy turn in, and loose feeling FF mid turn. You just don't feel that firm connection with the road in EPR, it's as if the is floating on ice or someting.

You know... this really sucks. I know that EPR is the better representation, but it just doesn't feel anywhere as good as GT4 when it comes to immersion. With EPR, it just doesn't physically feel like I'm driving a real car like it does in GT4. :guilty:
 
Some people complain about the Force Feedback in EPR. I use a Logitech Driving Force (the old one) set to "strong FF" and I must say it feels right to me.

Apart from the lack of bumps in EPR, (there GT4 wins, of course), the "feel" of the cars is much more immersive to me in this game.

But I guess we all have, for some reason or another, our way to get immersed in a game. Every time I play LM24H (with poor physics and old-gen graphics) i feel like I'm driving a endurance race. No other game provides me that.
 
...set to "strong FF" ...
I wasn't aware of this option before, and just gave it a try. It didn't really have the effect that I wanted unfortunately.

I think it would be a lot better if there was more effort in the steering. A stiffer wheel basically. Right now it's too loose and somewhat springy, which is unlike any "sporty" car I've ever driven.

Immersion be damned though. After playing EPR and GT4 back to back with the same car on the same track, EPR is still the better drive by far.
 
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