Physics: EPR vs GT4

[Tornado]

3.5 inches? that's 88mm, you do realize that, right?
And I'm glad to see what Scaff said.
Tires do stop your car. if the brakes stop the tires If your brakes can only slow your tires from 60 in 200ft, and you have 335mm tires, how long will it take to slow from 60?

200ft. But in addition to having tires that are probably twice as wide as both cars, the big Merc also has 16 inch carbon brakes with 8 piston calipers. The 'Vette (and probably the Skyline) has drums front and rear.

Likewise with tires. See above.
And then there's weight dist., the ABS system, and weight transfer, along with f/r track, Cd, etc.
If the ABS system, as you say your Neon did, locks up, leaving skid marks, can that not be improved?

Yeah, it can. But that doesn't really address the point at hand. The car with the wider tires and better braking system stopped slower, or at least gave an incredible simulation of doing so.

 

[Deathclown66]

200ft. But in addition to having tires that are probably twice as wide as both cars, the big Merc also has 16 inch carbon brakes with 8 piston calipers. The 'Vette (and probably the Skyline) has drums front and rear.
Yeah, it can. But that doesn't really address the point at hand. The car with the wider tires and better braking system stopped slower, or at least gave an incredible simulation of doing so.

I Understand all of this.
I understand GT4 does not model braking properly.
I've never said otherwise.
I'm simply making sure you realize that tires are not even close to the only thing stopping a car. they set a limit, along with the brakes. Each must be as powerful as the other to fully complete it's job.

Actually, in a straight line, there are very few things that determine stopping distance.
Brake system.
Tires.
CD.
Weight.

Assuming the brake power/tire combination is perfectly proportionate to the car's loads on each tire during braking, nothing else will affect how quickly it stops.

Anywho, I just went and bought a Skyline (same as in EPR), and took it for a spin 'round the 'Ring, in GT4.
Not one of you has driven a stock Skyline GT-B in GT4, have you?
Here's a replay of my first and only lap, with the Skyline. It's not great, but for having never touched the car, and not really having embraced power oversteer in GT4 before, I think it's pretty nice.
Very informing, of how much you can slide through many corners, and never overcorrect yourself into a wall.
Also notice that the car induces power oversteer at speeds in excess of 100mph, but all the while, never does what I gripe about EPR's Skyline doing, and that's a burnout. Rather, it spins the tires, at a small rate, causing oversteer, but nothing drastic.
Honestly, I think GT has gone overkill in it's power oversteer abilitys, but hell, I've never seen nor heard anything about these cars, which sadly, no one corrected me on how very different they seem to be from the G35 coupes.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't even know what cars you're talking about. And Yes, 350Z's, Infinity G35's, and Skyline's have limited slip. How the hell do you think traction control works?

But I'm very grateful you you took a car I never heard of, in a game I've never played, and made the tires spin. Fantastic.
Well, I was playing NFS Most Wanted, and.....
you could've at least used a slightly comparable car, instead of one that weighs 1000lbs less, with likely skinnier tires, and another with weighs 500lbs less, and has 80-90 more hp.

Yet you take this as a deinitive test? And you did, question my credibility, did you not?

Traction control doesn't need a limited slip. Otherwise, TCS wouldn't be nearly as prevalent as it is. I looked it up and the manual-transmission G35 coupe does indeed come with an LSD. The auto does not, and neither do the sedans, as far as I can tell.

Sorry, I assumed you already knew about what is hailed by many as the be-all end-all of driving simulators. The XR-GT was used to "prove" that a powerful engine isn't needed to slide at 80mph, and the FZ50 was used to "prove" that you don't need an extraordinary amount of horsepower to get wheelspin while in an oversteer situation at 80mph.

Nothing is definitive unless one of us can get a hold of the actual car and do the test on a track in the real world. However, the test results are a clear indication that taking a turn improperly at 80mph can result in a huge slide -- whether or not the engine would bounce off of the rev limiter is harder to demonstrate, due to the lack of a car in LFS that matches the G35's specifications.

 

[Scaff]

Actually, in a straight line, there are very few things that determine stopping distance.
Brake system.
Tires.
CD.
Weight

Assuming the brake power/tire combination is perfectly proportionate to the car's loads on each tire during braking, nothing else will affect how quickly it stops.

While I agree with almost everything you have said above I do have a couple of points to make regarding your list.

While cd can have an effect on stopping distances unless we are talking about very high speeds that effect is going to be minimal. Whta is related and can have a big effect on stopping distances is downforce, now I am here specifically refering to high downforce cars, so race cars and/or track biased specialists (such as Radical's).

Weight itself is a second order factor in stopping distances, and generally a minor factor at that, how that weight is statically distributed and then how it transfers under braking are far more important than the weight itself.

The following piece is an excellent summary of the forces involved in braking, and certainly a great starting point, it was originally published in Grassroots Motorsports magazine.

http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.html

Its well worth a read for anyone with an interest in the subject.

This piece offers far more detail on the actual physics involved, including the areas of weight and weight distribution/transfer.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/The Physics of Braking Systems.pdf

Sorry, I assumed you already knew about what is hailed by many as the be-all end-all of driving simulators. The XR-GT was used to "prove" that a powerful engine isn't needed to slide at 80mph, and the FZ50 was used to "prove" that you don't need an extraordinary amount of horsepower to get wheelspin while in an oversteer situation at 80mph.

Nothing is definitive unless one of us can get a hold of the actual car and do the test on a track in the real world. However, the test results are a clear indication that taking a turn improperly at 80mph can result in a huge slide -- whether or not the engine would bounce off of the rev limiter is harder to demonstrate, due to the lack of a car in LFS that matches the G35's specifications.

While I am not calling into doubt how good LFS is, I do have to take slight issue with this direct comparison.

You see one of the things I have noticed about LFS is (unsurprisingly) the set-up of the cars is distictly track biased, and totally different to a road car set-up. Particularly in how they react when nearing the limit, roads cars are almost without exception set-up to understeer on the limit, before transisioning to oversteer. Something that cars in LFS are not set-up to do as standard.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Deathclown66]

Traction control doesn't need a limited slip. Otherwise, TCS wouldn't be nearly as prevalent as it is. I looked it up and the manual-transmission G35 coupe does indeed come with an LSD. The auto does not, and neither do the sedans, as far as I can tell.

Well, I guess a few of the crappier cars (FWD's), simply cut power.
However, being that since '93, GM was putting LSD on F-Body's, I can say it's quite common on RWD sports cars. I can also say that the cars mentioned do have LSD, Automatics as well, though maybe not the viscious LSD, I'm pretty sure they have one. Either way, the Skyline GT-B that is the actual car mentioned, most certainly does.

And I could tell from the rest of your post that you either simply ignored half of my last post, or just didn't watch the video.
And if you don't want to that's fine, but don't make posts assuming I didn't just post a video of a Skyline, the exact car from EPR, doing powerslides around the 'Ring, in GT4, at 80+mph.
The point is, it isn't doing a burnout. It is simply slipping the tires enough to bring the rear out, a far more realistic experience than the wildly bouncing off the limiter, tires blazin' crap EPR gave me.

While cd can have an effect on stopping distances unless we are talking about very high speeds that effect is going to be minimal. Whta is related and can have a big effect on stopping distances is downforce, now I am here specifically refering to high downforce cars, so race cars and/or track biased specialists (such as Radical's).

This is a technicallity that may go either way, but I assumed that Downforce was factored in Cd. ratings. (we were also talking about 150mph stops, the reason I mentioned cd.)
I do agree with you on the effect of the weight, and cd/downforce.

 

[Scaff]

This is a technicallity that may go either way, but I assumed that Downforce was factored in Cd. ratings. (we were also talking about 150mph stops, the reason I mentioned cd.)

You are right that it might go either way which is why personally I prefer to keep them separate.

For example a VW beetle has a drag Cd of approx 0.38, but at 124mph will be generating 742lbs of lift.

By contrast a Porsche Carrera GT with a drag Cd of approx 0.38 will be developing 343lbs of downforce at 150mph.

Throw in a few racing cars and a 1978 Lotus 79 with a drag Cd of between 0.70 and 1.00 (depending on set-up) could generate up to 2,505 lbs of downforce.

While the 1967 Ford GT40 had a drag Cd of approx 0.43 but developed 148lbs of lift at 150mph.

Some of the silliest downforce figures were however obtained by the Group C sportscar's with the Nissan R92 (as an example) producing 3,693 lbs of downforce at 150mph and a staggering 6,565 lbs at 200mph.


With the vast majority of road cars producing lift at speed rather than downforce and, as can be seen above, the relationship between Cd and the amount of lift or downforce not always clear (and certainly not easy to predict) I personally think its best to keep them separate.

A lot of good info on the subject (with an obvious bias towards Le Mans) can be found here

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/



Regards

Scaff

 

[Deathclown66]

You are right that it might go either way which is why personally I prefer to keep them separate.

For example a VW beetle has a drag Cd of approx 0.38, but at 124mph will be generating 742lbs of lift.

By contrast a Porsche Carrera GT with a drag Cd of approx 0.38 will be developing 343lbs of downforce at 150mph.

Throw in a few racing cars and a 1978 Lotus 79 with a drag Cd of between 0.70 and 1.00 (depending on set-up) could generate up to 2,505 lbs of downforce.

While the 1967 Ford GT40 had a drag Cd of approx 0.43 but developed 148lbs of lift at 150mph.

Some of the silliest downforce figures were however obtained by the Group C sportscar's with the Nissan R92 (as an example) producing 3,693 lbs of downforce at 150mph and a staggering 6,565 lbs at 200mph.


With the vast majority of road cars producing lift at speed rather than downforce and, as can be seen above, the relationship between Cd and the amount of lift or downforce not always clear (and certainly not easy to predict) I personally think its best to keep them separate.

A lot of good info on the subject (with an obvious bias towards Le Mans) can be found here

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/



Regards

Scaff

👍


I overlooked this, and feel I must say,

if it wasn't for the limited-slip differential and rear-mounted engine, it may have also been willing to spin its inside tire and bounce off of the rev-limiter as well.

Cars that are only spinning one of theirs rear tires slide far, far, far less than cars spinning both wheels.
So, if, somehow, a 2005 Nissan RWD Sportscar could manage a one-wheel burnout, (as you seem to see possible) it would actually have more turning grip, and powerslide less, despite the loads of extra wheelspin on one tire.

 

[rsmithdrift]

👍


I overlooked this, and feel I must say,
Cars that are only spinning one of theirs rear tires slide far, far, far less than cars spinning both wheels.
So, if, somehow, a 2005 Nissan RWD Sportscar could manage a one-wheel burnout, (as you seem to see possible) it would actually have more turning grip, and powerslide less, despite the loads of extra wheelspin on one tire.

I am an LSD genious.

LSD does a few things to a car. A stronger LSD will make the car harder to spin tire because it'd have to spin both tires more as apposed to taking the path of least resistance = peg leg or one wheel peel.

A LSD also make the car less responsive and harder to turn in because both wheels are trying to spin the same speed, meaning to turn, one wheel would have to slide, or the lsd would have to slip = understeer.

A LSD means that once a car starts sliding, it's going to slide A LOT more.

Open diff cars are hard to drift cause the outside wheel refuses to spin, it'll only spin one wheel, which makes the car alot easier to spin tire and a lot easier to bounce the rev limiter from wheelspin, but alot harder to turn sideways because of it. Makes the car very manuverable and easy to turn. Makes initiating a drift easier (except for e-brake because of peg locking, but that only happens in the real world) and holding a drift near impossible.

A locked LSD = NO DIFF, straight axle, will be extremely easy to drift because it will always spin both tires at the same speed. In fact, you cannot turn a car with this kind of rear end (not diff) w/o drifting. But it'll be easier to control because the car will be very stable, and won't do anything unexpectedly like an open diff car will. However because of the drift or die nature of them, the car is so unmenuverable that it's harder to initiate a drift or link a drift, and makes it easier for the motor to bog down if you run out of momentum. In the hands of a skilled driver, this is the secret weapon that I use for drifting in EPR. And I want one back on my S13 badly. (they tend to break IRL if not done properly or if you hit a curb, or in my case a ditch)

And I just realised something that was never mentioned about the high speed wheelspin thing........You guys are aware that the speedometer is realistic in EPR right?? Meaning it's based off of rear tire speed and not off of car speed. Meaning if you're doing a burn out the speedo is incorrect. Meaning like my real car if I spin tire through 5 gears in the rain and the actual body of the car is only going 30mph the speedo will still read over 100mph. So that may have alot to do with what you (Deathclown) are describing as too much cornering wheelspin, along with the LSD thing

Deathclown, if you still have the game, go to tunning settings and look under Limited Slip. I can tell you that no car comes with a LSD stronger than 50%. Most are between 10% and 25%. Which replicates a VLSD. And those are horrible and peg leg (one wheel peel) quite easily and often.

 

[Wolfe]

Well, I guess a few of the crappier cars (FWD's), simply cut power.
However, being that since '93, GM was putting LSD on F-Body's, I can say it's quite common on RWD sports cars. I can also say that the cars mentioned do have LSD, Automatics as well, though maybe not the viscious LSD, I'm pretty sure they have one. Either way, the Skyline GT-B that is the actual car mentioned, most certainly does.

As a BMW fan, I know that most of them come with open differentials, while only a fraction of the normal models have them and all of the M models have them. Since the Skyline is almost like Nissan's answer to the 3-series, I assumed it would be the same way.

And I could tell from the rest of your post that you either simply ignored half of my last post, or just didn't watch the video.
And if you don't want to that's fine, but don't make posts assuming I didn't just post a video of a Skyline, the exact car from EPR, doing powerslides around the 'Ring, in GT4, at 80+mph.

I don't have an ARMax or whatever it is you need to watch that replay. I understand you have a 56k modem (if I recall correctly) so I don't expect you to post up an actual video video.

The point is, it isn't doing a burnout. It is simply slipping the tires enough to bring the rear out, a far more realistic experience than the wildly bouncing off the limiter, tires blazin' crap EPR gave me.

Hmm. I'll be honest here -- I didn't expect this debate to go on for nearly as long as it has, so I never bothered to get my barely-working PS2 up and going just to take a spin in the G35. I fully expected that you were simply spinning the inside wheel due to an open diff, saw the tire smoke, heard the squeal, and thought "it must be burning out." Aiding me in this conclusion was the fact that your usage of the term "burnout" to describe high-speed power-oversteer gives me the impression that you're 5-10 years younger than you probably really are. Sorry, but that's the truth.

However, I just now managed to get Enthusia running and had a go in the Skyline myself. Now that I have, I've noticed a problem...

...I have a feeling you're driving the Skyline GT-8. I can't for the life of me get the normal, manual-transmission-equipped Skyline 350GT Premium to do a 4th-gear, 80mph, redline-bouncing superpowerslide. However, the 8-speed CVT-equipped Skyline GT-8 will do it with ease.

I won't even begin to claim that I know all about how CVT's and driving dynamics go together, but I can't help but think that this unconventional transmission is seriously screwing with this debate. I do know that CVT's are somewhat similar to automatics and allow a lot of "slip" with the engine (possible explanation for the redlining), and I also can tell you that the 4th "gear" of an 8-speed CVT will be shorter than the 4th gear of a 6-speed manual (possible explanation for the wheelspin).

While I am not calling into doubt how good LFS is, I do have to take slight issue with this direct comparison.

You see one of the things I have noticed about LFS is (unsurprisingly) the set-up of the cars is distictly track biased, and totally different to a road car set-up. Particularly in how they react when nearing the limit, roads cars are almost without exception set-up to understeer on the limit, before transisioning to oversteer. Something that cars in LFS are not set-up to do as standard.

Regards

Scaff

True, but my experiment was more focused on whether or not there would be enough inertia and horsepower for the slides. All but the most hideously understeery RWDs can be thrown into a slide if you try hard enough. Besides, even if the XR-GT/FZ50 had more road-car-like suspensions, they would still be very different from the Skyline, which doesn't really have a close match in any of LFS's cars.

 

[Deathclown66]

As a BMW fan, I know that most of them come with open differentials, while only a fraction of the normal models have them and all of the M models have them. Since the Skyline is almost like Nissan's answer to the 3-series, I assumed it would be the same way.

Fair enough.

I don't have an ARMax or whatever it is you need to watch that replay. I understand you have a 56k modem (if I recall correctly) so I don't expect you to post up an actual video video.

Correct. Besides, a replay is far more detailed. (unless the video was of the replay)

Hmm. I'll be honest here -- I didn't expect this debate to go on for nearly as long as it has, so I never bothered to get my barely-working PS2 up and going just to take a spin in the G35. I fully expected that you were simply spinning the inside wheel due to an open diff, saw the tire smoke, heard the squeal, and thought "it must be burning out." Aiding me in this conclusion was the fact that your usage of the term "burnout" to describe high-speed power-oversteer gives me the impression that you're 5-10 years younger than you probably really are. Sorry, but that's the truth.

when you assume, you make an ass out of you, not me, I believe the saying goes.
Despite your continued whining about my reference to a "burnout", what do you call it when a car is spinning it's tires, bouncing off the rev-limiter? what is the 25 year-old version? I thought that was a burnout.
whereas, a car simply sliding, because of small amounts of slippage through a turn, without raising the rpm's significantly, would be the common "power oversteer" you mention.
as I said before, simply saying "power oversteer", does not describe the detail that I wished to represent. So when you have a better term, or wording for it, let me know, because this is the second time you've complained about my terminology, without offering a better alternative.
Surprise! I used the same car in GT4 and EPR! Yes! It is the 8-speed! Does that mean burnouts at 90??? I'll bet not, but hell, this whole argument is based on speculation, so you can turn your head to defend your precious EPR till the cows come home.

However, I just now managed to get Enthusia running and had a go in the Skyline myself. Now that I have, I've noticed a problem...
...I have a feeling you're driving the Skyline GT-8. I can't for the life of me get the normal, manual-transmission-equipped Skyline 350GT Premium to do a 4th-gear, 80mph, redline-bouncing superpowerslide. However, the 8-speed CVT-equipped Skyline GT-8 will do it with ease.

That's a 5-speed.
And the GT-8 is an 8-speed, and I see nothing to show that it is a CVT, as you mention.

I won't even begin to claim that I know all about how CVT's and driving dynamics go together, but I can't help but think that this unconventional transmission is seriously screwing with this debate. I do know that CVT's are somewhat similar to automatics and allow a lot of "slip" with the engine (possible explanation for the redlining), and I also can tell you that the 4th "gear" of an 8-speed CVT will be shorter than the 4th gear of a 6-speed manual (possible explanation for the wheelspin).

Actually, it's 4th "gear", goes to 105mph, approx the same as EPR's.
By the way, I was driving in GT4 this last time, and it did not Do that thing where it's kinda like power oversteer, but worse, but I can't call it a burnout, because that's childish, but now my post looks as stupid as you seem to think is more proper.
It did powerslide, but it wasn't "burning out", so to speak.
EPR did burn out, this is extremely noticable after the turn, when the speedo drop from up over 100, back down to 75-85. (depending on exit speed)

True, but my experiment was more focused on whether or not there would be enough inertia and horsepower for the slides. All but the most hideously understeery RWDs can be thrown into a slide if you try hard enough. Besides, even if the XR-GT/FZ50 had more road-car-like suspensions, they would still be very different from the Skyline, which doesn't really have a close match in any of LFS's cars.

We're not trying. We're trying not to.
And I guess LFS might want to get a better car selection, being this be-all end-all sim it is.

And I just realised something that was never mentioned about the high speed wheelspin thing........You guys are aware that the speedometer is realistic in EPR right?? Meaning it's based off of rear tire speed and not off of car speed. Meaning if you're doing a burn out the speedo is incorrect. Meaning like my real car if I spin tire through 5 gears in the rain and the actual body of the car is only going 30mph the speedo will still read over 100mph. So that may have alot to do with what you (Deathclown) are describing as too much cornering wheelspin, along with the LSD thing

Thankfully I'm not retarded, and that is not the case.
And you're missing the point, again.
The car was spinning the tires at 105-110mph. The car could be moving up to 75-90mph when this happened. So the car was doing a burnout.
Don't stop reading yet.
The car was also sliding, in an extreme powerslide, as you would expect from a LSD car to do, while doing a burnout at 80+mph.

 

[Dave A]

Despite your continued whining about my reference to a "burnout", what do you call it when a car is spinning it's tires, bouncing off the rev-limiter? what is the 25 year-old version? I thought that was a burnout.
whereas, a car simply sliding, because of small amounts of slippage through a turn, without raising the rpm's significantly, would be the common "power oversteer" you mention.
as I said before, simply saying "power oversteer", does not describe the detail that I wished to represent. So when you have a better term, or wording for it, let me know, because this is the second time you've complained about my terminology, without offering a better alternative.

In Wolfe's defence I wouldn't refer to that as a burnout either, I'd class it as excessive wheelspin, when I'm thinking of a burnout I'm thinking of wheelspinning but not moving anywhere or moving very little. Though I did know what you meant.

 

[Deathclown66]

In Wolfe's defence I wouldn't refer to that as a burnout either, I'd class it as excessive wheelspin, when I'm thinking of a burnout I'm thinking of wheelspinning but not moving anywhere or moving very little. Though I did know what you meant.

I agree. Excessive wheelspin is a very good term. Provided you are not being to specific.

How excessive?

 

[uM_Jammer]

And the GT-8 is an 8-speed, and I see nothing to show that it is a CVT, as you mention.

Yes the Skyline GT-8 is a CVT, and EPR's modeling of the CVT might be seriously affecting your opinion of RWD behaviour in EPR. Go out and drive... say the S2000 for something very stable, or an RX-8 for something very stable in a drift.

The CVT has these properties, which makes it a poor drift car, and a poor choice of car to judge EPR on:

- It's an automatic. EPR actually models the behavior of auto transmissions!. This means there's a torque converter, and the shifts behave as such.

- With a torque converter, there's going to be a wide range of rpm fluctuation for a giving speed and throttle application due to slippage. So, you're cruising at 5000rpm, nail the throttle, and it suddenly jumps to redline! This is the slipping torque converter.

- It's an auto, and the shifts "slur" from one to another. Combined with tight gearing, delay, and torque converter effects, there is little rpm drop between gears. Go through the gears, each shifts drops the rpm by only about 1000rpm at full throttle.

- The behavior of the CVT (all autos in EPR IMO) make drifting and holding drifts a nightmare. I wish they threw in a non-CVT Skyline Sedan, as that's what I drive on a semi-daily basis.

 

[Wolfe]

when you assume, you make an ass out of you, not me, I believe the saying goes.
Despite your continued whining about my reference to a "burnout", what do you call it when a car is spinning it's tires, bouncing off the rev-limiter? what is the 25 year-old version? I thought that was a burnout.
whereas, a car simply sliding, because of small amounts of slippage through a turn, without raising the rpm's significantly, would be the common "power oversteer" you mention.
as I said before, simply saying "power oversteer", does not describe the detail that I wished to represent. So when you have a better term, or wording for it, let me know, because this is the second time you've complained about my terminology, without offering a better alternative.

You could have explained that the car was getting power oversteer, both wheels were spinning, and the engine was bouncing off of the redline like crazy.

As L4S said, a burnout is a term for low-speed wheelspin, or stationary wheelspin. As in, you do a burnout in a parking lot to impress your friends, and the drivers in professional drifting events are doing power oversteer.

And the GT-8 is an 8-speed, and I see nothing to show that it is a CVT, as you mention.

You could look up the real-world car. It only takes a quick search to reveal that the car is, in fact, a CVT with pre-set ratios at 8 points.

Actually, it's 4th "gear", goes to 105mph, approx the same as EPR's.
By the way, I was driving in GT4 this last time, and it did not Do that thing where it's kinda like power oversteer, but worse, but I can't call it a burnout, because that's childish, but now my post looks as stupid as you seem to think is more proper.
It did powerslide, but it wasn't "burning out", so to speak.
EPR did burn out, this is extremely noticable after the turn, when the speedo drop from up over 100, back down to 75-85. (depending on exit speed)

Okay, and where does real life fit in? You can't expect to prove that GT4 is more realistic by only comparing the two games to themselves...

As uM_Jammer has already explained, the GT-8 is a CVT, Enthusia does do a better job of simulating both automatics and CVTs, and the real-world characteristics of a CVT could very likely explain the phenomena that you're experiencing in EPR.

Bringing the GT4 Skyline GT-8 into the equation is rather useless, because GT4 just treats it like a car with an 8-speed manual transmission.

We're not trying. We're trying not to.

You're missing the point. As I said before, I did that test in LFS to determine whether the inertia and horsepower would be enough to maintain a slide for any amount of time, and if the RPMs would rise, and by how much.

 

[Scaff]

True, but my experiment was more focused on whether or not there would be enough inertia and horsepower for the slides. All but the most hideously understeery RWDs can be thrown into a slide if you try hard enough.

Now I would not disagree with that at all, but I must confess that's not how your original post read to me. In the quote above you are discussing generating enough horsepower and inertia to generate a power-over situation and go so far as to say that some cars will need 'hard' work to do so. That to me implies a series of deliberate actions.

In the original post I replied to you (and I have highlighted them in bold) said that the LFS XR-GT was 'more than willing' to enter a slide with 'moderate steering' and then that the FZ50 was also 'willing to do the same'.

I'm sorry to say that I don't have easy access to a G35 and a space where I can safely attempt an 80mph drift, but a quick boot-up of Live for Speed revealed (predictably) that the 140hp, 2500lbs. XR-GT was more than willing to go into a slide at 80mph with even a moderate application of steering. In turn, the more-powerful (360hp) but heavier (3000lbs) FZ50 was also willing to do the same, and if it wasn't for the limited-slip differential and rear-mounted engine, it may have also been willing to spin its inside tire and bounce off of the rev-limiter as well. As it was, it still gained some RPM when the slide was initiated.

Deathclown, a 270hp G35 could very easily be made to go into a slide at 80mph, and given the right kind of corner and an open differential (as it probably has), could probably light up the inside tire as well.

Now these to me read very differently and the latter are most certainly a factor of suspension set-up and steering geometry, I had a quick look at the XR-GT 'standard' set-up in LFS, now aside from the set-up being biased towards oversteer I also noticed that under compresion the suspension only gains negative camber, nothing wrong with that for a track based or race car, but most certainly not represenative of a road car.

The following is a quote from Advanced Racing Products who specialise in alignment equipment for the racing world.

While maintaining the ideal camber angle throughout the suspension travel assures that the tire is operating at peak efficiency, designers often configure the front suspensions of passenger cars so that the wheels gain positive camber as they are deflected upward. The purpose of such a design is to reduce the cornering power of the front end relative to the rear end, so that the car will understeer in steadily greater amounts up to the limit of adhesion. Understeer is inherently a much safer and more stable condition than oversteer, and thus is preferable for cars intended for the public.

Source - http://www.advancedracing.com/chassissetup.php

Unfortunatly while the physics of LFS are not in question, I again have to raise the problem that the cars included in it (bar two*) are not representative of how 'road cars' are set-up. Quite simply put the XR-GT has a suspension design that it built to maximise front grip under compresion and therefore bias towards oversteer. The majority of road cars, engineered for the general public, will normally start with a small degree of negative camber but gain positive camber as the suspension compresses. This results in an understeer bias on the limit, one that can (on most RWD cars) be transitioned to oversteer through the use of the 'loud' pedal.

Regards

Scaff

*Note, the only two real cars in LFS are both very track biased, in fact one is certainly track only and the other could hardly be described as a typical road car.

 

[Deathclown66]

You could have explained that the car was getting power oversteer, both wheels were spinning, and the engine was bouncing off of the redline like crazy.

1. Infinity G35's (Skyline I had, same car), DO NOT burn out and bounce off the rev-limiter at 80 mph, just because you turned.
Now, a few things on that.
1. The knowledge that this car is 2-wheel drive.
2. The knowledge that a car turning, spinning both of it's rear tires, (as a 2-wheel drive RWD car always does), always results in power oversteer.
3. Now if you read this, you fully understand that this car is doing everything you just mentioned, and this was from my very first post on EPR, but you weren't paying attention, and have wasted both of our time constantly assuming there was something else happening

(Yes, the Infinity I forementioned is far different from the Skyline, something nobody noticed other than myself, as I posted about on page 11.)

As L4S said, a burnout is a term for low-speed wheelspin, or stationary wheelspin. As in, you do a burnout in a parking lot to impress your friends, and the drivers in professional drifting events are doing power oversteer.

So when I said, Does burnouts through turns, at 80mph in 4th gear..... you took that to mean 32mph, in 1st gear, because, hell, who wouldn't?

You could look up the real-world car. It only takes a quick search to reveal that the car is, in fact, a CVT with pre-set ratios at 8 points.

Great. It drives/shifts like a manual in both games at redline.
Either that or the one in EPR I had wasn't the CVT.

Okay, and where does real life fit in? You can't expect to prove that GT4 is more realistic by only comparing the two games to themselves...

I did mention in my last post that since these arguments were based on specualtion, and maybe a little common sense (or lack thereof), you could defend EPR till the cows come home.

As uM_Jammer has already explained, the GT-8 is a CVT, Enthusia does do a better job of simulating both automatics and CVTs, and the real-world characteristics of a CVT could very likely explain the phenomena that you're experiencing in EPR.

Yes, and that's why the rear slide straight out, because the torque converter slipped.
I'll give you this: One more ignorant post like this, (being the 5th time I've stated that it did "power oversteer"), and I'll just let you go back into EPR bliss.
And no, EPR doesn't model "real-life automatics", because it waits way to long to upshift at light throttle. It still holds them in gear for far longer than a real car would.
It is a small improvement over GT4, but nothing to brag about, because it's still not right, not even close.

Bringing the GT4 Skyline GT-8 into the equation is rather useless, because GT4 just treats it like a car with an 8-speed manual transmission.

Actually, GT4 makes it shift just like an 8-speed automatic. If you used it, you would know this.

You're missing the point. As I said before, I did that test in LFS to determine whether the inertia and horsepower would be enough to maintain a slide for any amount of time, and if the RPMs would rise, and by how much.

Whoo-hoo! But those cars have totally different power/weight ratings, on either account, and very likely different tires, among the variables, including what Scaff mentioned. That makes it a poor test.

 

[Tornado]

Yes, and that's why the rear slide straight out, because the torque converter slipped.

Nope. The rear end slipped out because the GT-8's 4th gear is roughly in between 2nd-3rd gear in a G35 5-speed. You're making it sound like it is such a huge deal that the car would "burnout" when the car was infact in quite a low gear.

Actually, GT4 makes it shift just like an 8-speed automatic. If you used it, you would know this.

O'RLY? Because if I recall...

Great. It drives/shifts like a manual in both games at redline.
Either that or the one in EPR I had wasn't the CVT.

So, which is it?

 

[Wolfe]

1. Infinity G35's (Skyline I had, same car), DO NOT burn out and bounce off the rev-limiter at 80 mph, just because you turned.
Now, a few things on that.
1. The knowledge that this car is 2-wheel drive.
2. The knowledge that a car turning, spinning both of it's rear tires, (as a 2-wheel drive RWD car always does), always results in power oversteer.
3. Now if you read this, you fully understand that this car is doing everything you just mentioned, and this was from my very first post on EPR, but you weren't paying attention, and have wasted both of our time constantly assuming there was something else happening

(Yes, the Infinity I forementioned is far different from the Skyline, something nobody noticed other than myself, as I posted about on page 11.)
So when I said, Does burnouts through turns, at 80mph in 4th gear..... you took that to mean 32mph, in 1st gear, because, hell, who wouldn't?

If you can show me where you said "both wheels spinning" in your original statement, I'll retract what I said.

Fact: You're the only person I've ever heard to use the term "burnout" the way you do.
Fact: It makes you look like a 13-year-old.
Fiction: All of us thought you were referring to a 32mph 1st gear burnout.
Fiction: The way you describe things is always very clear and easy-to-understand.

Great. It drives/shifts like a manual in both games at redline.
Either that or the one in EPR I had wasn't the CVT.

You must be playing a goofy copy of Enthusia, then.
Either that or you have achieved the impossible and managed to get a bone-stock Skyline 350GT to do a 4th-gear 80mph both-tires-spinning bouncing-off-redline powerslide.

I did mention in my last post that since these arguments were based on specualtion, and maybe a little common sense (or lack thereof), you could defend EPR till the cows come home.

It's one thing to speculate between two very noticably imperfect driving sims/games all by themselves. It's another thing entirely to speculate while examining how those two sims/games compare to the real world.

The former is based entirely on opinion. The latter is evaluating and comparing the realism of the two games. If you insist on doing the former, then there's no point in talking to you because you've made up your mind and won't change it.

Yes, and that's why the rear slide straight out, because the torque converter slipped.

If purposefully mixing two of your debate opponents' points makes you feel better, then sure, that's what happening.

However, if you'd like to return to what's actually being said, the torque converter is what's causing the RPM to shoot up to redline. Meanwhile, the shorter "gearing" of the CVT's 4th gear and perhaps other factors in the dynamics of a CVT are causing the wheels to spin.

The rear "slid straight out" because you threw the car into a turn at 80mph with the throttle pegged. As easy as it was to replicate what it is you're talking about in Enthusia, I can't say that I got the same result from actually trying to corner properly.

And no, EPR doesn't model "real-life automatics", because it waits way to long to upshift at light throttle. It still holds them in gear for far longer than a real car would.
It is a small improvement over GT4, but nothing to brag about, because it's still not right, not even close.
Actually, GT4 makes it shift just like an 8-speed automatic. If you used it, you would know this.

So the fact that Enthusia models a torque converter properly means nothing to you, eh?

I did use the GT-8 in GT4, and the way it shifted was no different from any other car in the entire game.

Now I would not disagree with that at all, but I must confess that's not how your original post read to me. In the quote above you are discussing generating enough horsepower and inertia to generate a power-over situation and go so far as to say that some cars will need 'hard' work to do so. That to me implies a series of deliberate actions.

In the original post I replied to you (and I have highlighted them in bold) said that the LFS XR-GT was 'more than willing' to enter a slide with 'moderate steering' and then that the FZ50 was also 'willing to do the same'.

Now these to me read very differently and the latter are most certainly a factor of suspension set-up and steering geometry...

...Unfortunatly while the physics of LFS are not in question, I again have to raise the problem that the cars included in it (bar two*) are not representative of how 'road cars' are set-up. Quite simply put the XR-GT has a suspension design that it built to maximise front grip under compresion and therefore bias towards oversteer. The majority of road cars, engineered for the general public, will normally start with a small degree of negative camber but gain positive camber as the suspension compresses. This results in an understeer bias on the limit, one that can (on most RWD cars) be transitioned to oversteer through the use of the 'loud' pedal.

Regards

Scaff

*Note, the only two real cars in LFS are both very track biased, in fact one is certainly track only and the other could hardly be described as a typical road car.

I popped into Live for Speed for a quick drive and reported exactly what I found, which was that it was easy to attain the inertia for the slides, even with just moderate steering on the XR-GT, and that the sub-standard power of the XR-GT didn't prevent it from being able to achieve a considerable slide.

Whoo-hoo! But those cars have totally different power/weight ratings, on either account, and very likely different tires, among the variables, including what Scaff mentioned. That makes it a poor test.

1. You had never even heard of Live for Speed, much less played it, before I mentioned it.
2. The G35 is much heavier than the XR-GT, which enables it to generate more rotational inertia. It is also much more powerful. Therefore, if the puny little XR-GT has what it takes to attain and maintain a slide at 80mph, questionable suspension setup or not, what is there to say that the G35 can't do the same? The inclusion of the FZ50 was intended, then, to demonstrate how a larger, heavier, grippier car could do the same thing, and to show that it is possible to get an RPM rise out of 80mph wheelspin.

 

[Scaff]

I popped into Live for Speed for a quick drive and reported exactly what I found, which was that it was easy to attain the inertia for the slides, even with just moderate steering on the XR-GT, and that the sub-standard power of the XR-GT didn't prevent it from being able to achieve a considerable slide.

I didn't dispute that it occurred, in fact I tested it myself in LFS and I am quite happy to agree that it happens.

The point of my post, and I did think it was quite clear, was that its not directly or indirectly comparable to a road biased car.

2. The G35 is much heavier than the XR-GT, which enables it to generate more rotational inertia. It is also much more powerful. Therefore, if the puny little XR-GT has what it takes to attain and maintain a slide at 80mph, questionable suspension setup or not, what is there to say that the G35 can't do the same? The inclusion of the FZ50 was intended, then, to demonstrate how a larger, heavier, grippier car could do the same thing, and to show that it is possible to get an RPM rise out of 80mph wheelspin.

It not just the questionable suspension set-up that a problem here, its the fundamental design of the suspension itself, in LFS both of the cars mentioned gain negative camber on compression, which will result in an increase in front grip. The natural limit balance of a car with a suspension design of this nature will be oversteer.

What's to say the G35 may not do the same is that as a road car, it stands a good 80%+ chance of running a suspension set-up that gains positive camber as it compresses. This will reduce front end grip and almost certainly develop understeer initially, which will transistion to oversteer when power allows the rear tyres slip angle to exceed that of the front. Its this type of (very, very common) road car suspension design that manufacturers use to stop 'Joe Average' killing themselves. Without it the slightest push to far on the throttle would result in almost immediate power-oversteer, and I'm sorry but RWD road cars are not set-up like that (with a very few exceptions).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Deathclown66]

Nope. The rear end slipped out because the GT-8's 4th gear is roughly in between 2nd-3rd gear in a G35 5-speed. You're making it sound like it is such a huge deal that the car would "burnout" when the car was infact in quite a low gear.

80mph. that is the damn speed.
What part of that do you not understand?
What is it about your brain that cannot grasp the 40 times I've posted this speed? It doesn't matter if that takes 1,2,3,4,5,6, or 10 gears, it's moving at 80mph.

So, which is it?

Neither game models automatics correctly. They only shift on my input.
It shifts seamlessly like an 8-speed automatic would in real life, hence the automatic reference. At no point, does it seem any different then an 8-speed automatic.

So the fact that Enthusia models a torque converter properly means nothing to you, eh?

They don't, if the car I was driving is supposed to be an 8-speed CVT automatic.
You haven't driven an SL55AMG in gt4, have you?

I did use the GT-8 in GT4, and the way it shifted was no different from any other car in the entire game.

You have now proven yourself incompetent in terms of GT4, as there are a select few that shift like automatics, and even start driving on their own, up to 40mph, such as the SL55AMG. But that's no different than ideling at a stop, right?

If purposefully mixing two of your debate opponents' points makes you feel better, then sure, that's what happening.

What? I'm not allowed to quote different people now? If I didn't quote you, than consider it not a response to you, (i.e., use your brain).

However, if you'd like to return to what's actually being said, the torque converter is what's causing the RPM to shoot up to redline. Meanwhile, the shorter "gearing" of the CVT's 4th gear and perhaps other factors in the dynamics of a CVT are causing the wheels to spin.

You said last post you don't know what I'm saying.
We've talked about the "shorter gearing" already. But you knew that. right?

The rear "slid straight out" because you threw the car into a turn at 80mph with the throttle pegged. As easy as it was to replicate what it is you're talking about in Enthusia, I can't say that I got the same result from actually trying to corner properly.

You just said (

You must be playing a goofy copy of Enthusia, then.
Either that or you have achieved the impossible and managed to get a bone-stock Skyline 350GT to do a 4th-gear 80mph both-tires-spinning bouncing-off-redline powerslide.

), so, pick your poison.

If you can show me where you said "both wheels spinning" in your original statement, I'll retract what I said.

Apparently, this next quote of mine flew over your overl-knowledgable head.

1. The knowledge that this car is 2-wheel drive.
2. The knowledge that a car turning, spinning both of it's rear tires, (as a 2-wheel drive RWD car always does), always results in power oversteer.

So, I take that to mean you thought the Skyline was one wheel drive? And you're the physics expert, huh?

Fact: You're the only person I've ever heard to use the term "burnout" the way you do.
Fact: It makes you look like a 13-year-old.
Fiction: All of us thought you were referring to a 32mph 1st gear burnout.
Fiction: The way you describe things is always very clear and easy-to-understand.

Fact: you're the only person I've ever heard think that it doesn't count as a burnout if you're driving at a faster speed, or going around a corner.
Get This:
Power Oversteer: Is when the tires slip, causing the rear end to come out.
Burnout: When the back tires spin at an un-ordinarily high rate, much faster than the car's actual speed.
Fact: It makes you sound like a 15 year old smartass that thinks he knows everything, and is commonly wrong.
Fiction: you know anything I've said, or been able to comprehend it.
Fact: You still haven't fully understood what I'm saying, yet have continually rushed to the defense of EPR, which is the geatest display of fan-boyism that exists.
If you don't know what I'm saying, you can't know I'm wrong, can you, fan boy?

You must be playing a goofy copy of Enthusia, then.
Either that or you have achieved the impossible and managed to get a bone-stock Skyline 350GT to do a 4th-gear 80mph both-tires-spinning bouncing-off-redline powerslide.

Yes, I got the special edition, "goofy copy".

It's one thing to speculate between two very noticably imperfect driving sims/games all by themselves. It's another thing entirely to speculate while examining how those two sims/games compare to the real world.

Have you done the latter so far? Let me know about your test drive 'round the 'Ring in the Skyline then. Jesus.

The former is based entirely on opinion. The latter is evaluating and comparing the realism of the two games. If you insist on doing the former, then there's no point in talking to you because you've made up your mind and won't change it.

This is easily indentifiable when a person involved, hasn't a clue what the other is saying, but is already screaming that he is wrong.

 

[Wolfe]

What? I'm not allowed to quote different people now? If I didn't quote you, than consider it not a response to you, (i.e., use your brain).

Do you have a short-term memory problem? You were addressing me alone. However, you took two of my points and mixed them together.

You just said (), so, pick your poison.

Taken out of context. I meant that your problem is easy to replicate with the GT-8. Your problem is impossible to replicate with the 350GT.

Apparently, this next quote of mine flew over your overl-knowledgable head. So, I take that to mean you thought the Skyline was one wheel drive? And you're the physics expert, huh?

An open-diff can allow one wheel to spin alone (remember here that I had assumed the G35 had one).

Fact: you're the only person I've ever heard think that it doesn't count as a burnout if you're driving at a faster speed, or going around a corner.

Live4speed and Toronado don't exist, then?

Get This:
Power Oversteer: Is when the tires slip, causing the rear end to come out.

Nope. That's just oversteer. Power oversteer is induced or maintained by throttle application.

Fact: You still haven't fully understood what I'm saying, yet have continually rushed to the defense of EPR, which is the geatest display of fan-boyism that exists.

I understand perfectly what the point of your message is. It's when you try to describe or explain something that things can get muddy.

If you don't know what I'm saying, you can't know I'm wrong, can you, fan boy?

Ooh boy, he pulled out the "F-word." Call me a fan boy all you like, it won't change the fact that Enthusia is about on par with, if not better than, GT4. I just happen to think that it's better.

Have you done the latter so far? Let me know about your test drive 'round the 'Ring in the Skyline then. Jesus.

Let's see, I've...
1. Made comparisons between how the EPR G35 behaves in a corner and how a real-world G35 would likely behave, based on my experience in real cars, in Live for Speed (which is much closer to reality than EPR or GT4 could ever wish to be), and on my understanding of the laws of physics. Which is fine, because as we've both said, all of this is speculation.
2. Talked about the characteristics of a real-world CVT.
3. Mentioned my comparisons between Enthusia 'Ring laptimes, GT4 'Ring laptimes, and official published laptimes.

You have...
1. Brought up what you feel are flaws in EPR's physics model, and...
2. Backed up those claims with little other than statements like "But in GT4...etc. etc."

This is easily indentifiable when a person involved, hasn't a clue what the other is saying, but is already screaming that he is wrong.

Who's screaming? I DIDN'T LEAVE THE CAPS-LOCK ON BY MISTAKE, DID I? I simply enjoy a good debate on driving sim physics now and then, and you're providing me with something to argue against.

It not just the questionable suspension set-up that a problem here, its the fundamental design of the suspension itself, in LFS both of the cars mentioned gain negative camber on compression, which will result in an increase in front grip. The natural limit balance of a car with a suspension design of this nature will be oversteer.

What's to say the G35 may not do the same is that as a road car, it stands a good 80%+ chance of running a suspension set-up that gains positive camber as it compresses. This will reduce front end grip and almost certainly develop understeer initially, which will transistion to oversteer when power allows the rear tyres slip angle to exceed that of the front. Its this type of (very, very common) road car suspension design that manufacturers use to stop 'Joe Average' killing themselves. Without it the slightest push to far on the throttle would result in almost immediate power-oversteer, and I'm sorry but RWD road cars are not set-up like that (with a very few exceptions).

Regards

Scaff

Yes, Scaff, but almost any amount of built-in understeer can be overcome by deliberate weight transfer attempts. From there, it is only a matter of seeing how well a car can maintain a 4-wheel drift given its rotational inertia, horsepower, tires, etc.

Believe me, my inclusion of the comments on steering were not intended to comment on the handling balance of any car. Indeed, if I were referring to handling balance, and not inertia/power, why would I compare a G35 to a wannabe Starion and a wannabe 911, much less a wannabe Starion and 911 that have track-based suspension designs? If that were the case, I might as well be comparing a full-size pickup truck and a Toyota MR2.

 

[rsmithdrift]

Yeah, OK, I've had about enough of this douchebaggery......... So I made a vid to show what Deathclown is trying to say and we are trying to say is normall and not a burnout.......

Here it is.


As you saw, a stock Skyline GT-8. It has a decent LSD, but still only spins one wheel under such cornering preassure. It'll spin both if you are turning hard enough and at a low enough speed....Like the drift I did in the hairpin.

Also the Transmission slips 1k rpm when you get on the gas. I was using Semi-auto, which just means it acts like a real cars automatic transmission with torque converter, and of course, it slips some, the only difference is that I control when it shifts. Watch the instant 1k rpm gain/drop everytime I get on/off the gas. Also it slides around alot and is a very loose car. Has skinny tires also. Def, skinnier than the Coupe. (you can see the difference in the yellow ball G-map thing, it actually shows the tire width in that thing. This car has relatively skinny tires, I'd say similar to 185/50/16's IMO Maybe 195's at the most.

That LSD is just tight enough that at low speed it works to spin both, but at high speed it works to make the outside wheel grip and the inside wheel just spin a little more, which makes the car a handfull with under/oversteer changing rapidly. That with the soft suspension and it really requires a light touch and is rather unpredictable in compairison to how I set up my Lvl 10 Drift 180sx. Which even that won't spin tire enough to be called a burnout in 3rd gear....let alone 4th.

What you (Deathclown) are feeling is the torque converter slipping mating with the extremely close ratio transmission, and the slight wheelspin of the inside tire.

I have played this game for over a year now and I have NEVER with any car of any tuning level felt a car do a burnout at 80mph. The only time I've felt close is when driving RWD cars with Open diff like older sports cars like the AE86. If you get it's tuning level up w/o installing an LSD, it'll straight roast tire in the turns due to peg leg wheelspin. But still, not at 80mph.

It behaves honestly just like I'd expect it to. Just like a real car of it's nature.

Edit: Oh, and BTW, I went touge running in my car again last night, and took a rather sharp turn called "Dead mans turn" one of my favorites......anyways, took it at 60mph in 3rd gear. (redline 3rd is ~90) and floored it mid turn. Car got loose (just enough to have the steering cocked maybe 20* in the other direction), started squeeling tire, gained a little rpm, started peg legging, I snapped it back straight at corner exit. My rpm fell around 1,000 rpm at corner exit when I let off the throttle and the car quit pegging on me. I was at 75mph when the rpm/speedo normalized. (speedo read ~85 at corner exit due to wheelspin) In case you forgot I drive a 120-130whp 240sx.

 

[Dave A]

Guys can I just make a friendly suggestion. Wouldn't it all be a lot smoother and easier to understand and accept each other points if you just stopped with the passive name calling and suggestive comments regarding intelligence and competence levels.

 

[rsmithdrift]

Here, I did it in GT4 also just as a compairison.



The car felt to handle about the same, the only difference was that the motor seemed to bog down horribly when the car got sideways. I can't really explain it........Maybe the tires never lost forward traction even though they were sliding sideways.... it's really wierd. Car actually looses rpm when it's sideways at full throttle. I unno what's up with that....

 

[Hun200kmh]

I've been avoiding this thread, because you guys went far more "technical" than I could go. I only know my personal experience, from IRL driving and from driving in GT4 and EPR (and other games).

That said, I can recognize some flaws in EPR. The most outstanding being the smooth transition between grip-no grip with slick tyres, making possible unrealistic - even if fun - shows of driving like the amazing video of the GT1 in Dragon Range.

But, all in all, I have no doubt in my mind (maybe without technical, but surely with empyrical (sp?) knowledge of driving) that EPR "owns" GT4 in everything but size, graphics detail and track detail (bumps). The first two don't affect the driving experience, the last one does.

btw, my 👍 👍 👍 to what L4S wrote. I gave you rep for that, even if I know you have already the "quality posts" badge on you. We can all argue what we want without offending, directly or just playing with words.

ok, this "I can't argue technically" guy is moving out of this "technical thread" now.

 

[Scaff]

Yes, Scaff, but almost any amount of built-in understeer can be overcome by deliberate weight transfer attempts. From there, it is only a matter of seeing how well a car can maintain a 4-wheel drift given its rotational inertia, horsepower, tires, etc.

Again I would not disagree with that, I was simply observing that your very first post in this made it sound like it should be easy to do on the G35 because its easy to do in LFS. It was the wording of the statement I had issue with.

Believe me, my inclusion of the comments on steering were not intended to comment on the handling balance of any car. Indeed, if I were referring to handling balance, and not inertia/power, why would I compare a G35 to a wannabe Starion and a wannabe 911, much less a wannabe Starion and 911 that have track-based suspension designs? If that were the case, I might as well be comparing a full-size pickup truck and a Toyota MR2.

Again I refer back to your original post which mentioned it could happen with 'moderate steering' and 'with ease' on both cars in LFS, so my issue is with the wording used here to describe not inertia or power, but steering.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Scaff]

OK Gents

This is a deliberate double post as I want to keep the following separate from my on-topic replies.

A number of comments made over the last few days in this thread, by a number of different people have come very close to AUP violations, in particular the following section of the AUP.

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone or any group. There will be no racially, sexually or physically abusive or inciteful language tolerated. Any abusive comments made by members will be removed by the Moderating staff and the user issued with a warning or banned, as deemed appropriate by the Moderating staff. No personal attacks on other members will be tolerated. If you question someone, it must be done in a reasonable and semi-friendly manner. Violating this rule will be grounds for suspension and/or permanent removal from the board.

Now I enjoy a heated discussion as much as anyone here, and also fully understand that at times it can get very frustrating when you don't feel that you are getting your point across. That is however no excuse to vent frustrations in an abusive or insulting manner.

I want to reiterate that at present I don't feel that anyone has deliberately crossed that line, please be aware however that should I feel that anyone does cross that line then I will issue infractions to those involved. A infraction for this kind of action carries 10 'points', get 30 points and you get a ban. Should I have to take action of this nature I would also have to strongly consider if the thread should remain open.

Please be aware that I do not want to have to carry out any of the above, but that is not a decision that rests in my hands, but rather in yours. This is a thread that you all know I greatly enjoy and a subject area I also enjoy discussing. As such I do not write this post lightly, and I would hope that you take the above as constructive feedback and use it to ensure this thread remains an enjoyable place for all involved.

Thanks

Scaff

 

[uM_Jammer]

Yeah, OK, I've had about enough of this douchebaggery......... So I made a vid to show what Deathclown is trying to say and we are trying to say is normall and not a burnout.......

👍 👍 👍 lol, gotta give you props for making that video. And it's nice to have a voice to go with your posts. We should all just converse/debate via embedded video, and do away with this typing nonsense.

BTW, tire size is likely 215/55/17.

 

[rsmithdrift]

👍 👍 👍 lol, gotta give you props for making that video. And it's nice to have a voice to go with your posts. We should all just converse/debate via embedded video, and do away with this typing nonsense.

BTW, tire size is likely 215/55/17.

Yeah, it probably is to be honest.......In Deathclowns defense, it did feel to have much skinnier tires..... Too slidey and hard to control from what a 4 door sedan should be. But it did behave in a believable manner even having too little grip.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree with Hun200kmh -- 👍 to Live4speed for his suggestion. I've been trying to keep such comments to a minimum, although I must admit the atmosphere of the debate isn't making it particularly easy.

Still, especially with Scaff's "intervention," so to speak, I think we can all agree to cool things down a bit.

...the only difference was that the motor seemed to bog down horribly when the car got sideways. I can't really explain it........Maybe the tires never lost forward traction even though they were sliding sideways.... it's really wierd. Car actually looses rpm when it's sideways at full throttle. I unno what's up with that....

It's because GT4 treats the GT-8 as if it had an 8-speed manual transmission, and thus, just like the 350GT in either EPR or GT4, the car doesn't have the power to redline the engine under the load of the wheelspin. Also, the lack of a proper torque converter simulation in GT4 means there's no slip in the transmission.