Physics: EPR vs GT4

  • Thread starter JasBird
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LaBounti
Any one try the Cobra on Tskuba wet? Impossible!! Too much power and clutch doest help with the DFP when its hard to press when you are counter steering so much. it seems easier with the DS2 when you can hit the clutch any time I dont know how real it is but the RX-7 is no where near as hard to drinve in the wet.
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I have a two wheel setup and a clutch pedal, but there's no need to hit the clutch unless you wan't to shift or to initiate a drift. Why would you press the clutch in the middle of a turn for no apparent reason? :odd:

And you can do it. You just have to have some crazy throttle control and drive very cautiously through the turns.......and down the straights. I never go past half throttle under 100mph. BE SMOOTH. If you really want to do it you can start off by doing a simulated speed limit of 45mph and drive like it were a open city street and gradually start pushing harder.
 
Pressing the clutch stops the over powered wheels from pushing the car's tail out while braking or turning on wet coures with th4e cobra. the tail is less swing happy with the clutch pressed in other wise you will just over steer in to oblivion. When you press it the wheels are neutral and trying to gain grip. This is about Wet tracks.
 
Having driven the Cobra in a nice, realistic game/sim, can you guys perfectly understand all of the stories about how it killed people in the '60's....?

I certainly can. :crazy:
 
Wolfe2x7
Having driven the Cobra in a nice, realistic game/sim, can you guys perfectly understand all of the stories about how it killed people in the '60's....?

I certainly can. :crazy:
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The first time I initiated the "crash effect", ie. the slow mo and white out upon major collision, was my first time driving the Cobra in this game. I was at Cosmic Eggway and I overcorrected into the longer, larger turn and head on'd the wall at 100mph. :nervous: :scared: And the first thing I though after the shock of what just happened passed was: "OMG, No wonder so many people died in these crazy ass cars" Seriously, I'm glad that wasn't real life 'cause I was trying to drive it like I would if it were my first time in it in real life at the time. (ie. slow and safe)
 
A few days ago I raced the Toyota Celica 4WD at Tsukuba in both GT4 and Enthusia, what a difference.
In GT4 the car seems so light and has a low inertia. If I release the accelerator while in the middle of a curve the car dips almost instantly toward the apex.
In Enthusia, one can really feel the mass of a car.
The lapping times were almost identicals, both around 1.09
In GT4 it's very difficult to make a FF car oversteer while it's very natural in Enthusia ( I drove FF cars most of my life so I know how understeering feels ).
I just hope 1one thing, that there will be an Enthusia 2 released.
I don't want to bash the Granturismo serie ( I lost too much time of my life playing it ) but Enthusia has imho a mor realistic physics.
Even my wife likes to play Enthusia, she made it to the racing level with just 3 cars: the VW new beetle, the Toyota Vitz and the Accura type R lol
 
Biased turkey
A few days ago I raced the Toyota Celica 4WD at Tsukuba in both GT4 and Enthusia, what a difference.
In GT4 the car seems so light and has a low inertia. If I release the accelerator while in the middle of a curve the car dips almost instantly toward the apex.
In Enthusia, one can really feel the mass of a car.
The lapping times were almost identicals, both around 1.09
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Hey! Someone else who understands the difference between numbers and "feeling!!" :)

So Biased turkey, I have a question; would you agree that in GT4, the cars' movements are more artificial, or fake, compared to the movements of the cars in Enthusia?
 
GT4 with the DFP lets you feel like you're manipulating the car, but it has a simulated mass, it doesn't really come into play, you can tell the game is telling the tires and the wheel too bluntly about the cars weight...

Enthusia with the DFP, when you're in say, a Mach 1, or an Elise, and you lift off the gas and the tail starts to come around, you can feel the wheel pull, and as you resist, it builds force gradually, and you can REALLY feel the weight of the car.

GT4 Suggests that the car has mass, Enthusia tells you it does.
 
Onikaze
GT4 with the DFP lets you feel like you're manipulating the car, but it has a simulated mass, it doesn't really come into play, you can tell the game is telling the tires and the wheel too bluntly about the cars weight...

Enthusia with the DFP, when you're in say, a Mach 1, or an Elise, and you lift off the gas and the tail starts to come around, you can feel the wheel pull, and as you resist, it builds force gradually, and you can REALLY feel the weight of the car.

GT4 Suggests that the car has mass, Enthusia tells you it does.
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Hmm....that's a good way of explaining it. Never thought of it quite that way before. :) 👍
 
Wolfe2x7
Having driven the Cobra in a nice, realistic game/sim, can you guys perfectly understand all of the stories about how it killed people in the '60's....?

I certainly can. :crazy:
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Having done my first "semi-clean" run down the DR with a Cobra, yeah, I can believe it.


It also highlights another thing that EPR has over GT4.

When you mash the gas in the Cobra in a straight line in GT4, the wheels just spin, and it's all but impossible to get the car to change direction, in EPR, it's all but impossible to keep it going straight with the throttle wide open...
 
NSX-R
It's worse than TVR?
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The Cobra? Well, whaddya expect when you take a huge, heavy, powerful, torquey Ford V8 and cram it under the hood of a very lightweight FR British roadster? :D
 
I haven't driven the TVR's yet, so I'll give them a try when I unlock them in DR mode.

That does remind me of a great sig quote I saw on Gamefaqs.

"If you give a TVR too much gas going into a corner, it will come round, pillage your village, and rape your women."

The Cobra though, highlights a great physics difference between GT4, reality, and EPR....mash the throttle in GT4, the car doesn't want to do anything...mash it in real life, it wants to skitter sideways, and drive into a wall...
 
Onikaze
The Cobra though, highlights a great physics difference between GT4, reality, and EPR....mash the throttle in GT4, the car doesn't want to do anything...mash it in real life, it wants to skitter sideways, and drive into a wall...
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I love how, while driving the E46 M3 in GT4, you can sit on the throttle through most corners and the car merely begins to push as though it were FF. The rear - in a 340 hp car, mind you - doesn't want to come out at all.
 
I'm just going to be simple and say...

many of you don't have the car experience to accurately tell which is better. So leave it at that.

Harder =/= better physics :)

Both have amazing physics. Physics. Physics.

GT4 has poor tire models. tire models. tire models.

Completely different things. different.

HOpefully by reading this people now understand. :)
 
I don't find Enthusia harder, actually, and I have quite a bit of driving time, and drifting time, heck, I even have drifting time in a contemporary of the E30 M3 (my 535i) and I agree that GT4's tire physics are a BIG problem.

They aren't the only one.

As I said earlier, GT4 suggests the car has mass, through the DFP, EPR tells you it has mass.
 
tha_con
I'm just going to be simple and say...

many of you don't have the car experience to accurately tell which is better. So leave it at that.

Harder =/= better physics :)

Both have amazing physics. Physics. Physics.

GT4 has poor tire models. tire models. tire models.

Completely different things. different.

HOpefully by reading this people now understand. :)
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I agree with you with most parts however, without a decent tire model, Can you really enjoy the physics? Yes, they are different, but they are related.
 
No, you cannot enjoy the physics as much without a decent tire model. However, that doesn't mean that the physics are extremely similar.

For example, andyone talking about drifiting and how the "drifting physics" are all wrong, is wrong. It has very little to do with the physics of the game, and much more to do with the fact that the tire model is very poor, which allows for the car to lose grip in certain situations, but not others. And vice versa.

Also, what I ment by

Harder =/= Better physics

is harder does not equal better physics. A lot of "sim" gamers think that if a game is harder than another sim, that it is automatically a "more realistic" game. This is not true.

The problem with GT4's tire model is that it only represents a few situations, and it assumes that you will drive to maintain grip most of the time, rarely attempting to lose grip. This is why it fails so much, because it does not represent every sutiation that is possible, and it does not react or respond accordingly.

And as far as mass goes, I feel this is more a force feedback related issue than a physics issue. With a controller the difference in mass isn't extremely noticeable, it is merely the feel of the DFP through enthusia, which has it's stronger points.
 
Yes, I really wish I could agree with you right this minute, however it would be much more convincing if there was some hard evidence to abrade people's thoughts about GT4's poor simulation of whatnot...

On another subject, I personally think that harder games are much "safer" than easier games mainly because people would be less likely to try some stupid stunt that is really hard and really dangerous in a harder game, like epr. On the other hand we have NFS series and as much as I like it, it makes everything a breeze to do, and I'm afraid that it could contribute to some of the accident youth have gotten into.
 
tha_con
I'm just going to be simple and say...

many of you don't have the car experience to accurately tell which is better. So leave it at that.

Harder =/= better physics

Both have amazing physics. Physics. Physics.

GT4 has poor tire models. tire models. tire models.

Completely different things. different.

HOpefully by reading this people now understand.
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Care to explain how you intend to support this argument? I'm not denying your claims and do not have interest in doing the necessary research to do so, but logically speaking, how are you able to justify that it is even possible to know how accurate the GT4 physics engine is when the flawed tire physics are naturally going to interfere with the accuracy of that judgment at all times?

Consider this: though the likelihood is small, I don't think it too presumptuous to at least consider the possibility of PD handicapping the tire modeling engine to cover holes or flaws in the general physics engine. Mere speculation, of course, but it does serve to make my point.

The contention that the car behaves properly during situations when the tire modeling appears accurate cannot be used, as this obviously does not account for what happens when the tire modeling is causing problems.

Again, I am not attacking your assertions, I'm merely curious as to how you came about them. If you ask me, it almost feels as though GT4 was meant to be played with all of the driving aids (TCS/ASM) enabled. To a real world driving enthusiast with hundreds of hours at various tracks, autocrosses, driving schools, and the like, this is disappointing. Even off-the-line straight-line traction modeling in GT4 is atrociously inaccurate.

Tires are the most important part of a real road car, and likewise, tire physics should be the most important part of any self-proclaimed "simulation." This is an almost unforgivable oversight on PD's part. If it is, of course, unintentional at all.

Interestingly enough, I got ahold of a copy of GT2 the other day, and found that in some ways, it offered better tire modeling than both GT3 and GT4.
 
Um, last time I checked, tire modelling was a crucial part of a game's driving physics...saying GT4 doesn't have poor physics, just poor tire modelling, is like saying "that chair isn't broken, it's just missing all of its legs." :lol:

In any case, evidence of GT4's shortcomings go further than tire vs road interaction. The cars just move wrong. It doesn't matter how badly the game simulates tires -- GT4 can throw your car into some really WRONG-looking spins. Also, the way the cars and their suspensions react to turns, hills, drifts, and such is really stiff and artificial. The game's inertia and suspension movement are totally off.

Mr Deap
New video of comparison of GT4 & Enthusia

http://media.putfile.com/GT4-vs-Enthusia
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Looks like you're really having fun with GT4... :indiff:

Nice vid. :lol: 👍
 
tha_con
Also, what I ment by

Harder =/= Better physics

is harder does not equal better physics. A lot of "sim" gamers think that if a game is harder than another sim, that it is automatically a "more realistic" game. This is not true.
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OK then I agree with you :) It's the same things being discussed in the flight sim forums. Everyone assumes more difficult is more realistic. I've been there myself. I'm a helicopter pilot myself, and once you get a few hours under your belt, normal flying is much easier in real life than in a flight sim. Visual cues is a big part of that, and one of the reasons why I now accept the no-cockpit views in a game, because even they don't give you enough visual cues compared to what you get in real life.
 
O RLY? You are a heli pilot? Jesus christ you are the first guy I know that knows how to fly a heli! Now there is something I've always wondered about, how the heck do you use the stick?
 
Center stick controls the pitch of the rotors, and thus the chopper, as I recall (forward/back, left/right)

Left stick controls the speed of the rotors I believe.

Right and left pedals affect the tail rotor to turn the chopper.

That's just what I recall from looking at my dads old Huey manuals, he worked on them in Vietnam.
 
Bullitt73
OK then I agree with you :) It's the same things being discussed in the flight sim forums. Everyone assumes more difficult is more realistic. I've been there myself. I'm a helicopter pilot myself, and once you get a few hours under your belt, normal flying is much easier in real life than in a flight sim. Visual cues is a big part of that, and one of the reasons why I now accept the no-cockpit views in a game, because even they don't give you enough visual cues compared to what you get in real life.
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Hey, a flight-sim guy! Just curious, have you ever tried X-Plane? It's like the Enthusia to Microsoft Flight Simulator's GT4. Not as pretty, but much more realistic. :)

@Onikaze: You're almost correct. One stick controls pitch and roll (and subsequently, forward/reverse/side-to-side motion) by tilting the entire rotor assembly. The other controls lift (vertical motion) by rotating the individual rotors, and the pedals control the rotor on the tail to turn the helicopter. Rotor speed is controlled by a throttle, but it's not really used to move the helicopter vertically. :)

@orubasarot: :lol: 👍
 
Well since we got a bit off topic here :)

Yes I have tried the demo of X-plane and it's excellent :) But I struggle to Hover in the game. But I haven't played for more than an hour or so. Reason why it's more difficult in a game than real life is, apart from visual cues/info, is that a joystick has a dead zone. In the helicopter the cyclic which is the stick between your legs requires almost no movement at all. It more of applying pressure. and you basically feel where do put pressure in your hand, unlike a joystick you "move" aorund whit little feel.

Like someone already mentioned, the cyclic between you legs controll pitch & roll. Then you have a handle on your left which you pull up to go up and down to go down. It changes the angle or pitch of all the baldes at the same time, and is therefore called the collective. More angle on blades go up and vice versa. On some helicopters you also a have the throttle on the collective, which is same as on a motorbike expect it works on oppsoite direction. You wanna keep the Rpm constand in a helicopter. In most helicopters this is taken care of by a governor, but sometimes you have to overide it manually. Pedals are to control the tail rotor. They work in same way as the collective on the main rotor, cnahing the angle on all blades so the nose goes left or right.

I highly recommend this link: http://www.howstuffworks.com/ I love their Auto section, and I think they have stuff on helicopters too.

Back to the game:) I agree that weight transfer seems strange in GT4. Especially when doing rally in GT4 you can't feel each individual corner lift or lower. It's like both side of the front always goes up or the same at the back. I Enthusia you feel weight transfer between each individual corner.
 
Wolfe2x7
Um, last time I checked, tire modelling was a crucial part of a game's driving physics...saying GT4 doesn't have poor physics, just poor tire modelling, is like saying "that chair isn't broken, it's just missing all of its legs." :lol:

In any case, evidence of GT4's shortcomings go further than tire vs road interaction. The cars just move wrong. It doesn't matter how badly the game simulates tires -- GT4 can throw your car into some really WRONG-looking spins. Also, the way the cars and their suspensions react to turns, hills, drifts, and such is really stiff and artificial. The game's inertia and suspension movement are totally off.



Looks like you're really having fun with GT4... :indiff:

Nice vid. :lol: 👍
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That's why I like GT3's physic model so much better. (though still not as good as Enthu ;) )

If GT4 had GT3's physics with 1:1 steering ratio DFP 900 mode, (like GT4 and Enthu) then it would be much closer to real life than the current one. I don't care that the car movement is jerky because this is a result of df 200 mode using up to a 32:1 steering ratio. The jerkiness is a result of the touchy 200* steering wheel and the game actively proportionalizing the steering angle from 1:1 to 32:1 based on the situation at hand. (makes and erradicly jerky front wheel movement) It's like when a computer gets jittery because it keeps resizing the ram. If you don't believe me put it in simulation steering mode and it becomes smooth as glass, but you can't get any steering lock once you get up to speed (gets rid of activesteering) making drifting impossible.

Konami needs to sell there physics model to all companies wanting to make a racing game as a base starting point. That would be the ultimate solution. Afterall in real life physics models don't vary and this one is clearly as realistic as it gets taking in all variables. 👍 Then the individual company can increase the grip if they want to make more of an arcade. But that would even be a fun arcade game if it takes in all the real life variables like enthu does.
 

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