Physics: EPR vs GT4

[Adam West]

Has anyone perform one of those really hard turns where one of the backwheels lifts off the ground? Does Enthusia do this?

 

[Hun200kmh]

hmmm ... I don't recall to see that, but I don't usually watch my replays*

You can easily try to see if that happens going to the Airport square. A small FF car with a stiff suspension should do it while initiating a turn under heavy breaking.

*apart from my "S'ing" the full lap of the loeweseenring with the R8. The last section, from the in car view, is breathtaking (it reminds me of the first section of the Spa-Francorchaps circuit). But the R8 doesn't lift backwheels, not even in an Airport

 

[Mr Deap]

A funny video I made about GT4 when drifting with a car stock. Though it wasn't my intention at first, but GameFAQS fanboy made me do it, lol.

Oh well..

http://media.putfile.com/farewell-GT4

 

[akhbhaat]

OK then I agree with you It's the same things being discussed in the flight sim forums. Everyone assumes more difficult is more realistic. I've been there myself. I'm a helicopter pilot myself, and once you get a few hours under your belt, normal flying is much easier in real life than in a flight sim. Visual cues is a big part of that, and one of the reasons why I now accept the no-cockpit views in a game, because even they don't give you enough visual cues compared to what you get in real life.

So true!

Quite frankly, I find flying (fixed wing PPL w/instrument here) in real life to be easier than it is in any PC/console simulation, not the least of reasons being the abundance of physical clues available to the pilot. You cannot fly the craft by "feel" in a simulator, and your feedback is limited to a 3D image with a narrow field of view superimposed upon a 2D screen. This is especially true of helicopters, where being able to see all around and pick up on subtle movements (joystick dead zone aside) is vital to keeping the craft stable in a hover.

As an aside, flying a stable fixed wing aircraft is far easier than most people seem to imagine it to be.

The same does, of course, apply to driving. A lot of drivers/pilots, myself included, decide how to control their vehicle by the "seat of the pants" as much as they do through instrumentation.

 

[Wolfe]

A funny video I made about GT4 when drifting with a car stock. Though it wasn't my intention at first, but GameFAQS fanboy made me do it, lol.

Oh well..

http://media.putfile.com/farewell-GT4

(This is the first time I've ever felt the need to use that smilie. You should feel proud. )

 

[Hun200kmh]

I can't see the video, but I saw the GameFAQ's thread where Onikaze (is that also you, Mr. Deap?) was trying to explain how EPR's physics engine is superior to the GT4 one, and the fanboyism over there is incredible. I'm not sure I could stand the insulting way used by those fanboys.

Oh well, it's not hard to get bored with GT4 and I hope that while GT5 is not out many PS2 driving/racing enthusiasts - even GT fanboys - will eventually buy EPR, and make Konami judge making EPR2 worthwhile.

But this is somewhat a "dejá vu" for me. I've been waiting for some years that Atari releases a "24H LM 2", because I liked that game so much, and I've been unlucky so far. I just hope the same thing (no sequel) doesn't happen with EPR. It would be a great loss, because EPR has an incredible potential, if we consider all the many features it lacks now, and - if made available in a sequel - that could turn EPR 2 to be the best console driving game ever (maybe apart from RBR, but that's a rally-only game).

 

[JasBird]

So true!

Quite frankly, I find flying (fixed wing PPL w/instrument here) in real life to be easier than it is in any PC/console simulation, not the least of reasons being the abundance of physical clues available to the pilot. You cannot fly the craft by "feel" in a simulator, and your feedback is limited to a 3D image with a narrow field of view superimposed upon a 2D screen. This is especially true of helicopters, where being able to see all around and pick up on subtle movements (joystick dead zone aside) is vital to keeping the craft stable in a hover.

As an aside, flying a stable fixed wing aircraft is far easier than most people seem to imagine it to be.

The same does, of course, apply to driving. A lot of drivers/pilots, myself included, decide how to control their vehicle by the "seat of the pants" as much as they do through instrumentation.

That's why I think a computer/console driving sim is much better suited than a flight sim. Because the wheels you get is much more like real life when it comes to feel. You don't have the deadzone and you usually get good force feedback. Also when driving a car you usually only need forward view 👍

 

[Wolfe]

@Hun200kmh: I'm not sure the "others" will buy the game soon enough for Konami to care...

You mention RBR, though, and that reminds me...I tried the PC version, and the physics were there, but the sense of speed was atrociously slow, so I just couldn't play it. "I'm going 50 km/h, I can take this corner!...huh? Why is my car sliding? Why does my speedometer say 150??" *crash into a tree and total the car* Is the console version o.k. as far as sense of speed goes?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Is the console version o.k. as far as sense of speed goes?

I can't complain, but in these games you never get the sense of speed - and the sense of fear - you would get IRL. That's why I mostly drive them with the outside view, to get a more peripheral vision (and also the litle movements of the car that hint to you what's it gonna do next. That's something you "feel" IRL, but that are diffiult to "see" driving games with the "inside view).

*crash into a tree and total the car*

That's not unusual in RBR

 

[Dave A]

Driing the Ring backwards is a blast, I've only done it once so far amd I never expected to drive it the wrong way round.

 

[Mr Deap]

(This is the first time I've ever felt the need to use that smilie. You should feel proud. )

I had a lot of fun to edit this one, well thank you.

I can't see the video, but I saw the GameFAQ's thread where Onikaze (is that also you, Mr. Deap?) was trying to explain how EPR's physics engine is superior to the GT4 one, and the fanboyism over there is incredible. I'm not sure I could stand the insulting way used by those fanboys.

Oh well, it's not hard to get bored with GT4 and I hope that while GT5 is not out many PS2 driving/racing enthusiasts - even GT fanboys - will eventually buy EPR, and make Konami judge making EPR2 worthwhile.

But this is somewhat a "dejá vu" for me. I've been waiting for some years that Atari releases a "24H LM 2", because I liked that game so much, and I've been unlucky so far. I just hope the same thing (no sequel) doesn't happen with EPR. It would be a great loss, because EPR has an incredible potential, if we consider all the many features it lacks now, and - if made available in a sequel - that could turn EPR 2 to be the best console driving game ever (maybe apart from RBR, but that's a rally-only game).

My username in GameFAQS is Mr kitty(I don't have any idea why I came up with that name, maybe to make a fool of everyone...). I made that account back in 2001. My main reason why I posted in GameFAQS, is because I got interest in racing TA leagues in GT3. Also that's where I learned to drive fast in racing games. Due to cheater, I became some kind monster at it(Also watching Initial D learned me to push a bit farther when it come to idea lines)...

How I started to post in GTP, because I got interest in photoshoping. I guess some of you maybe have saw some of my photoshoping skill...

My first Photoshop

Though with practice & you know I goten better...

My last serious photoshop

Now I don't feel like photoshoping anymore due that now I'm editing video. I try new stuff every week. I still have a lot to learn about anything, so expect new stuff later.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Now we know that, for the worst possible reason, there won't be a RBR 2.

May Richard Burns rest in peace.

 

[Wolfe]

Damn. The last news I had heard about him was when he was recovering...I thought he was doing just fine....

That sucks.

 

[JasBird]

So what you guys/girls think of Rallying in EPR? Compared to GT4 and most rally games it seems too much understeer and too much grip on gravel?

 

[rsmithdrift]

So what you guys/girls think of Rallying in EPR? Compared to GT4 and most rally games it seems too much understeer and too much grip on gravel?

I have yet to do a rally race in enthusia. Mainly because of the understeer I felt in DR mode.

Alas, we have finally found the achilles heel.

 

[Mr Deap]

So what you guys/girls think of Rallying in EPR? Compared to GT4 and most rally games it seems too much understeer and too much grip on gravel?

Think of it, I didn't do any video on the gravel...

I should do at least one, along with the wheel.

 

[Hun200kmh]

So what you guys/girls think of Rallying in EPR? Compared to GT4 and most rally games it seems too much understeer and too much grip on gravel?

It's very difficult to compare EPR with raly games, because in EPR (like in GT4) we are driving in "gravel circuits", not tight and twisty rally stages. And also because in rally games we are driving rally cars, while in EPR we are mostly driving road cars.

That said, I agree with the "to much grip" comment, but not with the "too much understeer" one. When I was younger and trying to emulate a "flying finn" , I used to drive as fast as I could on gravel road that I knew pretty well, with the car I had back then (a Opel Kadett, wich is the same as the Vauxhall Astra in the UK). And, even using the handbrake (cautiously, mind you) , it was very difficult for me to enter a corner at speed without praying that the front end of the car wouldn't get its own mind and get me out of the road.

I suppose a rally car (even a FF) is set up to avoid understeer as much as possible. But understeer is what you must fight when driving on gravel with a normal (road) car.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree with Hun200kmh. If anything, Enthusia's gravel provides too much grip, but there's nothing wrong with the understeer.

Overall, the dynamics of the gravel roads are excellent, but now that Bullitt has mentioned it, I do believe there's too much grip to be found...

 

[Onikaze]

Man, the last time I played GT4, I lasted about 10 minutes before I finally decided it was dead to me.

Case in point: The NSX, in GT4 it's boring to drive, doesn't really live up to it's reputation for handling and feedback, and it's all too hard to get the tail to rotate.

EPR it feels like it's alive, it feeds the road to you well, it is happy to tuck the nose, slide the tail, and power out of a corner like you would expect it too.

The Cobra is also a great example, it was so tame in GT4, what with the near complete lack of throttle steering, if you lost the back end, both sides went at once, and it just spins the tires and understeers, unless you've tossed it hard and lifted off the gas.

EPR, you understand why throttle control is considered such a valuable skill in real life racing, the car is very literally steered with your right foot, and it is an incredible challenge to drive it hard, and cleanly.

Oh, and there's a clutch in EPR...I hope the next logitech wheel has a full 6 speed H-Gate and Clutch.

 

[Wolfe]

Man, the last time I played GT4, I lasted about 10 minutes before I finally decided it was dead to me.

Case in point: The NSX, in GT4 it's boring to drive, doesn't really live up to it's reputation for handling and feedback, and it's all too hard to get the tail to rotate.

EPR it feels like it's alive, it feeds the road to you well, it is happy to tuck the nose, slide the tail, and power out of a corner like you would expect it too.

The Cobra is also a great example, it was so tame in GT4, what with the near complete lack of throttle steering, if you lost the back end, both sides went at once, and it just spins the tires and understeers, unless you've tossed it hard and lifted off the gas.

EPR, you understand why throttle control is considered such a valuable skill in real life racing, the car is very literally steered with your right foot, and it is an incredible challenge to drive it hard, and cleanly.

Oh, and there's a clutch in EPR...I hope the next logitech wheel has a full 6 speed H-Gate and Clutch.

Hey Onikaze, you should help me out in the debate here.

Act-Labs used to make an 8-speed H-gate and a working clutch to go along with it. Too bad they've been discontinued...

 

[JasBird]

Man, the last time I played GT4, I lasted about 10 minutes before I finally decided it was dead to me.

Case in point: The NSX, in GT4 it's boring to drive, doesn't really live up to it's reputation for handling and feedback, and it's all too hard to get the tail to rotate.

EPR it feels like it's alive, it feeds the road to you well, it is happy to tuck the nose, slide the tail, and power out of a corner like you would expect it too.

The Cobra is also a great example, it was so tame in GT4, what with the near complete lack of throttle steering, if you lost the back end, both sides went at once, and it just spins the tires and understeers, unless you've tossed it hard and lifted off the gas.

EPR, you understand why throttle control is considered such a valuable skill in real life racing, the car is very literally steered with your right foot, and it is an incredible challenge to drive it hard, and cleanly.

Oh, and there's a clutch in EPR...I hope the next logitech wheel has a full 6 speed H-Gate and Clutch.

I know the feeling. Enthusia has given me a love/hate realationship to GT4. I've tried to go back to GT4 a couple of times, after all it looks fantastic and has a nice selection of cars but most off all more and better selection of tracks compared to Enthusia. But like you said it's not alive. In Enthusia I have fun in almost any car. I amazed how often the game makes me smile

Merry Xmas

 

[Onikaze]

I got set into a rant about GT4 vs EPR on a gamefaqs GT4 Topic (How to make the cars drift better or something, I said play Enthusia) so here is my rant.

Enthusia Flaws: ·Lack of specific car tuning/modification options.
·Practically requires the DFP, as fine throttle control is a MUST.
·ONLY 200 cars, but a fine selection nonetheless.
·High speed physics (100-150 Mph+) are wonky in some cars, of course, I've never gone 150 in a Ruf CTR, so I can't say for sure how close it is to real life.
·Odds/Enthu Points system can be confusing at first.

Gran Turismo 4 Flaws: ·Lack of realistic drifting physics.
·Lots of car tuning options, but all highly tuned cars start to feel the same.
·Lack of variety in car feel (meaning the only real variety is in drivetrain/horesepower for the most part, an Elise feels like a Garaiya, feels like a ZZS, feels like a Cliosport, feels like a MGF, etc, etc, etc).
·Lots of cars, many of which are duplicated at least once, if not several times, compounded by the lack of different "feel" through the DFP.
·Overly aggressive force feedback, yeah, I said it, the wheel shouldn't try to saw my arms off when I'm driving a BMW 330i through a set of high speed sweepers.
·Understeer problems, most likely due to poor tire modeling in any situation which isn't pure grip driving (meaning the tire physics feel fine when they are rolling straight ahead, but it breaks down when they break loose).
·Racing feels like a chore, money is too easy to get to make doing races anything more than an attempt to get a completion percentage.
·Licenses aren't too difficult, even Gold isn't too hard too get, but having the aids on the cars compounds the feedback feeling, and makes it seem like I'm suggesting what I want the car to do, instead of driving it.
·B-Spec, which seems like an admission that the actual racing portion of the game is so boring that you're better off letting the game play itself for you.
·AI?
·No Clutch support.

I think it sums it up nicely.

 

[Wolfe]

I got set into a rant about GT4 vs EPR on a gamefaqs GT4 Topic (How to make the cars drift better or something, I said play Enthusia) so here is my rant.

Enthusia Flaws: ·Lack of specific car tuning/modification options.
·Practically requires the DFP, as fine throttle control is a MUST.
·ONLY 200 cars, but a fine selection nonetheless.
·High speed physics (100-150 Mph+) are wonky in some cars, of course, I've never gone 150 in a Ruf CTR, so I can't say for sure how close it is to real life.
·Odds/Enthu Points system can be confusing at first.

Gran Turismo 4 Flaws: ·Lack of realistic drifting physics.
·Lots of car tuning options, but all highly tuned cars start to feel the same.
·Lack of variety in car feel (meaning the only real variety is in drivetrain/horesepower for the most part, an Elise feels like a Garaiya, feels like a ZZS, feels like a Cliosport, feels like a MGF, etc, etc, etc).
·Lots of cars, many of which are duplicated at least once, if not several times, compounded by the lack of different "feel" through the DFP.
·Overly aggressive force feedback, yeah, I said it, the wheel shouldn't try to saw my arms off when I'm driving a BMW 330i through a set of high speed sweepers.
·Understeer problems, most likely due to poor tire modeling in any situation which isn't pure grip driving (meaning the tire physics feel fine when they are rolling straight ahead, but it breaks down when they break loose).
·Racing feels like a chore, money is too easy to get to make doing races anything more than an attempt to get a completion percentage.
·Licenses aren't too difficult, even Gold isn't too hard too get, but having the aids on the cars compounds the feedback feeling, and makes it seem like I'm suggesting what I want the car to do, instead of driving it.
·B-Spec, which seems like an admission that the actual racing portion of the game is so boring that you're better off letting the game play itself for you.
·AI?
·No Clutch support.

I think it sums it up nicely.

I'd disagree with the DFP bit at the top, but the rest of it looks great to me.

Certainly more brief than my latest post here. If a GT4 vs Enthusia vs Real-life discussion is what you're after, that one there has gotten pretty deep...

 

[nk4e]

I haven't tried EPR yet..I might turn a new leaf and go rent it

 

[KurtG]

Enthusia owns gt4 in low speed physics, gt4 has better highspeed physics. Low speed physics are the most fun for me anyway.
If you want the best physics simulator/online play racing game, go with live for speed s2. You will thank me. Oh, and dont bother without a wheel.

 

[Wolfe]

Enthusia owns gt4 in low speed physics, gt4 has better highspeed physics. Low speed physics are the most fun for me anyway.
If you want the best physics simulator/online play racing game, go with live for speed s2. You will thank me. Oh, and dont bother without a wheel.

Scaff used to say the same thing...can you be more specific with "highspeed physics?" Just curious.

Though, I won't argue at all about LFS S2 beating both PS2 titles hands-down.

 

[NSX-R]

LFS2 is nice, but the cars in the game sucks...

 

[Onikaze]

High Speed=100 Mph+

It feels...odd in EPR...definitely makes the Nurburgring scary as hell though.

Racecar Tire grip seems odd too.

 

[Wolfe]

High Speed=100 Mph+

It feels...odd in EPR...definitely makes the Nurburgring scary as hell though.

Racecar Tire grip seems odd too.

"Odd?"

The R-Class cars are completely nuts. Then again, so are the R tires in GT4.

 

[Mr Deap]

Hey some scary video:

Click on the pic to download the video