Physics thread

Discussion in 'Project CARS 1' started by LVracerGT, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    There's a lot of us who haven't had the opportunity to try out Project CARS. We know it looks fantastic, but how does it drive? How does the FFB, overal car feel, weight transfer feel compared to GT, Forza, iRacing, AC etc.

    Post your experiences/opinions here :tup:
     
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  2. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    You jumped me to it, thought about creating the very same thread this afternoon seeing there is a lot of unclarity (people saying it isn't up to par with AC, and reminds them of Shift in a way).

    There's a lot of us who aren't able to test it for themselves, so feedback is very much appreciated from the ones that are lucky enough to be 'part of the game'.
     
  3. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

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    First of all... what car do you want to know about? Each car feels and drives differently because the FFB is actually based on the steering rack and suspension geometry data of each car.
    So change your camber/toe/caster and it will feel different again. Change tyre pressure and it will feel different again. Etc etc etc.

    Also with that in mind it things like the physical shape and geometry of a curbstone come into play. The shape of a bump in the asphalt surface. The change from one kind of asphalt to the next.
    So depending on how hard or soft your tyre is, how your alignment is setup and how the car's rack works will determine how much of a jolt you will feel through your wheel.

    So yeah... it's not a general FFB system like in other games. Like... let's stack some canned effects and that's it.
    In pCARS we really have a live pure FFB system that continuously works in sync with the other physics systems within the game to provide you that accurate and real feel of being on a road with a car, and you can feel the difference.
    So it's not like other games where you have different curbs but all curbs give a perfect sawtooth to send to the wheel. It's not like that at all.
     
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  4. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    For the record, I don't have beta access (I recently remembered that I snagged a forum account, so I can read the WMD forum but I can't post).

    It's clear based on reports and forum posts that everything is still in progress. It's too early for anyone to know how the physics will turn out in the finished product; there isn't any car that has been "nailed down" yet, as far as I can tell. Certain cars are further along than others. Slightly Mad has been collecting feedback as they go, from their professional consultants (Ben Collins and Nicolas Hamilton) and from the players.

    Given that Project CARS runs an evolution of the Shift 2 Unleashed engine, it appears they've already worked out the wacky uncontrollability of that game:

     
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  5. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

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    Indeed Wolfe. The cars are still evolving Physics wise as we speak as bugs are being squashed and features (read Physics elements) are still being added.

    We have 3 Professional Consultants btw:

    - Ben 'ex-Stig' Collins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Collins_(racing_driver)
    - Nicolas 'brother of Lewis' Hamilton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Hamilton
    - Oliver 'Oli' Webb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Webb

    Oliver Webb was also the factory test driver for the BAC Mono ( http://www.bac-mono.com ).
    Next to this we always have someone involved from Dubai Autodrome ( http://www.dubaiautodrome.com ). Have continues feedback from the guys of Gulf-Sport Racing LLC ( http://www.gulf-sport.com ), which are the ones behind the Formula Gulf FG1000.
    Also we have constant interaction with McLaren (remember a discussion about how bright they (McLaren) thought a LED brake light should be), and other manufacturers. Who all in turn give us CAD data for their vehicles. If present at least, cause in olden days they didn't have CAD. So there we need to rely on reference pictures and measurements taken by hand.
     
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  6. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

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    Damn look like he is driving a waterbed there, i don't remember Shift 2 being that bouncy though so i'm guessing it's one of the jinxed cars or he screwed up the setup. Anyway what you guys said seems very promising.

    How do you yourselves feel about the 'temporary' physics at the moment compared to other games, which yes are finished unlike PCARS, but i'd like to have an idea anyway ;)
     
  7. Supermoney47

    Supermoney47

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    bahahaha, I can't stop laughing at this comment. Sums it up perfectly. :lol:
     
  8. JvM

    JvM Premium

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    It shows big promise to be right up there at the top. But tbh this thread makes more sense much later, around after the summer or so. So much still in progress.
     
  9. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

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    Personal opinion of the incomplete here and now.

    The cars are definitely naturally racable. Yet they still need a clutch bite/slip tweak here and there to make them better drivable (being worked on atm) to say... slowly exit your box without hitting your opponents pitcrew or car.

    The overall driving experience is indeed very natural. I even put my mom (hasn't driven in a car in 10 years) behind the wheel, and she easily took off. Well, except she gave too little gas with the current amount of bite from the clutch.
    The sensation the Physics systems give you are right on the money and I personally have no more moments where I think 'WTF just happened?'.

    Like JVM says though, the guys are still working on a lot of things. For example due to intervention of Gulfsport we are now trying a different tyre and heating model. And that heating model is really complex, so it takes a lot of testing and back and forths still. I'd almost think it's as complex as the tyre model itself (so the rubber, the carcass... Etc).

    To be honest I am amazed my computer can calculate it all in realtime as there is just so much going on underneeth the hood of this game.
    I wouldn't want to try to run it on my old Commodore Amiga 2000 at least. :dopey:

    But yeah, I am personally happy with how things look now. Wish we had more time to put more features and elements in there though. However, I think you guys would like a shot at it too at some point without thinking it is vaporware. :sly:
     
  10. JvM

    JvM Premium

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    Or PS3/XB360 :sly:
     
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  11. LogiForce

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    Talking about those. I want to stress here that all these real-time calculations as we have now, would definitely not have been possible on those old consoles. And in my personal opinion without them or a fraction of some of these real-time physics elements and the rest done the old way; it would definitely have made pCARS feel like any other sim out there.

    Think about things like throttle response, turbo/superchargers surges, brake fade, engine stall and bump starts, flash temperature changes, actively changing shape and size of the contact patch on a tyre.

    Well, I could name a whole list of things. One thing is for sure that we wouldn't be at this level when sticking to old consoles.
    Are we now a cut above the other simulators out there. Personally I think technically we definitely are, although maybe not with all things from all sims. At some parts we might equal sim X or Y. However, while we are technically advanced we still need to dial everything in and finalize stuff. So I can't say that we are actually gameplay wise there yet, but pCARS for sure has the technical capacity to get there easily enough.
     
  12. Earth

    Earth

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    Between rFactor and GTR2 which does pcars feel like the most?
     
  13. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

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    pCARS feels like pCARS. The others just feel canned in comparison and... just don't compare anymore, sorry.
    Which isn't such a bad thing that I say that. Sims of that age had to deal with more restrictions (i.e. worse hardware) than we do today.
    So what I basically want to say is that the difference is day and night (in my opinion), and that we are basically talking about 'Last-Gen Simulations Physics' versus the 'Next-Gen Simulations Physics'; of which the difference is far to great for a fair comparison.

    What you are basically asking in a different example, and in my eyes is how a Playstation 2 and a Playstation 4 compare with each other. To which the answer would be... "Well, they both play games and um... DVD's and a music CD here and there'.
    Or in the case of rFactor/GTR2 versus pCARS... "Well, they both simulate Physics, are a racing game and have sounds and visuals to match their generation".

    Without anymore sillyness, what I mean by canned is that you can anticipate what effect you will get, or that you will get exactly the same bump feel on every bump. Stuff like that.
    For example, I can drive on the laser scanned Brands Hatch circuit for 100 laps if I want to. I might know where the bumps are and what the kerbs feel like by the end of it, but each lap I will attack the bumps and kerbs differently... with a different feel through the wheel as a result each time I do so.

    So it really isn't as simple anymore as in the old days where we used to have predetermined reactions to every action the player makes with his virtual car. Everything with pCARS is more organic and dynamic in that respect, and I am sure others will follow at some point.

    Which is really the point we want to get at really. Nature by itself is a dynamic and organic entity that never stands still, so eventually we will have to work towards recreating such an environment virtually as well. In a way making worlds like you see in a Star Trek holodeck, or the virtual world in the movie The Matrix. In both of those virtual systems every molecule is recreated and has a reaction to one another, and all of that has to be calculated in real-time. Something our supercomputers still can't do today.
    So until we get to that point the game developers of these great simulation games will have to make due with the limited computer resources that we have, and with each generation that passes they will have to make an improvement... making the next Crysis of the Racing Sim World. ;)

    ps. Sorry for the long answer. :O
     
  14. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Keep up with the long answers please:tup: My anticipation grows with each post:cheers:
     
  15. Alex Bonner

    Alex Bonner

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    Psysics change daily for me, there is very little point having an opinion on it atm. It's showing all the signs of being a bit special. I'm sure you'll all love it.
     
  16. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    Thanks for going into so much detail @LogiForce :cheers: I hope the PS4 version of pCARS is as good as the PC version. It sounds like the feel of everything is above everything else at the moment.

    Besides what you can feel through the wheel with FFB, how do the cars feel overall? I've been hearing some concerns about pCARS still feeling arcade-ish.
     
  17. MasamuneDate

    MasamuneDate

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    You've gotta ask yourself who are the ones saying pCARS feel arcade-ish. The ones I've heard were GT fans in an effort to prove one is better than the another. But one thing is for sure: if pCARS is arcade-ish, so is GT6.
     
  18. LogiForce

    LogiForce Premium

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    Arcade-ish? Like the wheel position hasn't any relation to the rate of turn in? That arcade-ish?

    I think most people might refer to it as 'floaty' feeling. However, I noticed most people that feel this way have older (often gear-driven) wheels. I don't have this to be honest, and it all feels as close to real as possible. I just keep running into limitations of my sim racing gear.

    God please give me a SimSteering steeringwheel. :bowdown:

    What I currently use is:

    Steering wheel: Thrustmaster T500 RS + 350mm aftermarket rim + GT rim + Ferrari F1 rim
    Pedals: Fanatec Clubsport Pedals v2 (with some small mods)
    Shifter: Fanatec Clubsport Shifter SQ


    Back on topic though. All this talk that is still going on about 'arcadish' and 'floaty' has reached the ears of SMS their Physics guru, Andrew Weber. So he started a 'Floaty Steering' topic and asked the community to explain it all to him why they feel like that, with what hardware and so on. Currently we are on a quest to try to nail down where it comes from and remedy any remaining issues that might cause someone with any hardware to feel that way about the Physics driven FFB.
    Currently that topic contains 37 pages (10 post per page) and is about a month old, and still counting.


    So please rest assured that SMS and the WMD community are trying everything in their power to give you guys the best experience out there.


    With that I leave you guys with a comment from a guy who lives in the same small city as me, which he made on Race Department about the fundamentals of FFB. Niels Heusinkveld!

    Enjoy...

     
  19. frivoloushobby

    frivoloushobby

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    Every time I check out a PCars thread I get more excited. I must admit, it's refreshing to see information being passed along and that our concerns are being heard.
    Well done :cheers:.
     
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  20. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    Thanks again @LogiForce for all the detailed insight. It sounds like SMS is creating the dream sim, I can't wait to try it for myself. I almost bought into it when it was first announced, but I didn't (actually still don't) have a gaming PC. I was surprised with a PS4 last Christmas though :tup:

    I'll have to read the FFB book later :lol: I know a bit about FFB from my time on rFactor and GTR2 back when my gaming PC could handle everything still but it's been a while and I'm sure FFB has evolved just as much as the physics themselves since then.
     
  21. LogiForce

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    Okay, here is a bit of WMD for you guys. This has already been solved a LOOOOOONG time ago.

    In response to how the game felt in the summer of 2012 (two years ago!!!) I wrote the following post. Which was still when the system for it in place was still a place holder from the Shift 2 times, since development had just been started on pCARS.

    In return Slightly Mad Studios developers went to the drawing board because of this and others their posts, and now we have what we call 'Volumetric Throttle Response' and the turbo and super charger system is making use of it too.
    In other words, rather than linear RPM control that is hooked up to your throttle pedal we now take into account how much air goes into the engine when you open the throttle body. This means the game takes into account atmospheric pressure and all that good stuff. Which changes as the weather and elevation changes... etc.

    All in all the new system really gave each car in the game their own character on the part you use the most, the throttle pedal. Also it gives beasts like the Lotus 89T a monstrous character, as those turbos feel right on the money.


    Anyway, I just wanted to give you guys a piece of WMD level of talk to show how each subject of a car gets treated (e.g. think brakes, clutch, turbo, transmission, tyre compound, tyre carcass, tyre tread, tyre wear, tyre heat, engine heat, damage model, rain modeling, etc).
    Each of such posts often result in a long discussion by the community and developers alike. So often each question any of you guys might have now have already been discussed in a manner as below within WMD by everyone on the inside. After all, we are the same sim racers as you guys are... with those same questions. Heck, having access raises more questions sometimes. ;)

    So here is a snippet of what I once wrote... and remember this has been replaced by a complete new system so it is not relevant to the current condition of the game. I will assure you that throttle/engine response feels right on the money now.


     
  22. Wolfe

    Wolfe Premium

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    That's nifty. I can see what you mean by the game engine representing a "next gen" in simulation. :tup:

    I appreciate hearing more about stuff that isn't FFB, because although it comprises feedback from physics-level events, I don't consider FFB to be physics. I think well-developed FFB effects have a tendency to mask physics flaws for a lot of players (eg. Gran Turismo), while poor FFB effects can ruin the driving experience of a simulator with no other serious problems. FFB is very important to wheel users, but it says relatively little about how the game recreates vehicle handling and different cornering maneuvers.
     
  23. LogiForce

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    Actually that's what has happened during the development already. Before we went to the pure steering rack based FFB system we have now, we the members of the community and devs didn't feel something was wrong with certain cars. The FFB felt really good even though we used some canned effects here and there.
    Once we switched to the system we have now the SMS crew actually noticed small geometry enty typos and other small issues that resulted in issues with the FFB that were otherwise missed or blurred by the layers of canned effects.
    Even now when something new is being tried (new heating model, new tyre model, etc) sometimes things like oscilation at standstill and/or low speed might pop up on some cars but not the other. Such things can now be investigated right away, because we can feel the possible issue coming through the FFB system.

    So you are indeed right on the money with that statement right there, Wolfe. :tup: :cheers:
     
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  24. DG_Silva

    DG_Silva

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    Another example into the level of detail that is involved in creating pCARS, although not physics related, is the 2013 BMW 320TC E90 reference collection. The CAD data that BMW supplied to SMS did not any interior, suspension, engine or undertray, so the gauntlet was thrown out to the community to find some refs (as it has been with other cars).

    This time however, one of the manager-level members, mimaximax, contacted a racing team called PBRacing, who not only offered to take shots of what SMS wanted (and by that, I mean they supplied about 60 pictures covering everything, taking a frame-by-frame shot of the underside, measurements, detailing the dashboard equipment, ECU, engine (both in-situ, out of the car, and the empty engine bay), gearbox, door cards, just about everything you can think of), they also offered to give the devs all of the set-up sheets (suspension, engine, gearbox, etc.) for the 2013 season, and also their driver to test the car once it is in game.
     
  25. Myles Prower

    Myles Prower

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    I thought PCARS was using the BTCC BMW not the WTCC version?
     
  26. DG_Silva

    DG_Silva

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    I think aside from a few cosmetic and aerodynamic changes (which would be covered in the CAD), the underpinnings should be the same.
     
  27. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    I'll tell you what, the level of detail going into pCARS is making me walk a little funny :sly::lol:

    IIRC isn't pCARS being developed by the guys behind GTR2? Or is that misinformation?
     
  28. DG_Silva

    DG_Silva

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    It's kind of right. SMS were founded by some of the head guys from Simbin; Ian Bell took some of the lead designers and programmers to SMS, and the first titles were the Shift titles. The remainder of the Simbin staff after SMS left developed the Race Pro/07/GTR Evo games.
     
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  29. LogiForce

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    Correct. The history of Slightly Mad Studios is as follows.

    Simbin Studios -/split/-> Blimey! Games -/sold to/> Slightly Mad Studios

    Now let's make the big chief wookie the center of this history lecture, Ian Bell.

    Ian Bell was one of the founders and managing director of SimBin Studios. With them he created "GTR - FIA GT Racing Game" in 2005.
    After this Ian Bell took the core group of what was than the SimBin Development Team and split off and created Blimey! Games. He was than contracted by SimBin Studios to create two games "GT Legends" (2005) and "GTR 2 - FIA GT Racing Game" (2006).
    After this they acquired the Ferrari license in 2006 and wanted to create a game with it together with 10tacle Studios AG. However, after insolvency of 10tacle in 2008 the remainder of Blimey! Studios and its assets got sold to another company of Ian Bell, Slightly Mad Studios. This included the business and assets, and so also the Ferrari license and whatever assets have been made under that.
    So now going under the Slightly Mad Studios flag the initial core Simbin Studios Development Team got contracted by Electronic Arts Incorporated to create "Need for Speed: Shift" in 2009. After its success they got contracted to do the sequel as well called "Shift 2: Unleashed".
    In the end the developers of Slightly Mad Studios were not satisfied with the result from their dealings with Electronic Arts Incorporated, as the team loves racing simulations as much as we all do (and it shows in their earlier titles as deducted above).
    So while they did learn quite a deal of working under the pressure of a big publisher, they went ahead and cut themselves free with the money acquired and created "World of Mass Development" or WMD as we all know it best now.
    For their first independent project they wanted to go back to their roots, since "GTR - FIA GT Racing Game" was created by a team of community modders (that is what they were originally).
    So they thought up the concept of "Project C.A.R.S." or in full "Project Community Assisted Racing Simulator".

    During all the time above people have come and gone. Some did some (I think) freelance work for Simbin, EA, iRacing, etc. They went all over the place to acquire more skills and experience along the way, seeking new challenges to conquer.
    Each and everyone of the team is very experienced in their field, and it shows in their resume. Doug Arnao (car Physics and AI) has for example worked with Dave Kaemmer (from iRacing) under the "Papyrus Design Group" on a little well know game... "Grand Prix Legends".
    Project CARS' sound designer "Greg Hill" has also a cool resume. Working on titles like iRacing, rFactor, GTR 1 & 2, GT Legends, DIRT 1, GRID 1, FlatOut 1 & 2... and many more (just check his website... linked).

    That's just two people, but there are a total of 110 people within Slightly Mad Studios as we speak... and growing. So imagine the amount of knowledge and experience within this team being combined with the community in an effort to create the best... can you? It blows my mind at least when I think about it.

    Anyway, the Ferrari license and game was sold to Atari and was made into a game we now know as "Test Drive: Ferrari Racing Legends" of which the profits made were put to good use for Project CARS.
    Furthermore Slightly Mad Studios has gotten a contract from My.com USA to create a new MMO arcade racing game called "World Of Speed". This game is being developed at the same time as Project CARS. The assets and game engine tech created and knowledge gained are (to some extend) being shared between both games, aiding in a shortened development time for both games.

    Anyways, that's the history of Slightly Mad Studios in a nutshell I think. :lol: Though its a big nut looking back at my post. :eek:
     
  30. LVracerGT

    LVracerGT

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    GTR2 was my favorite sim ever, I raced in the premier GTR2 league for years. I can't wait for pCARS. :drool:
     
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