Physics thread

[Stylel_Code]

You guys often glorify the merits of the FFB on AC. I'd like to know what the best settings'd be for a T500RS so that I trully enjoy it

 

[nepal road]

Maybe natural is a better term than unforgiving? Some cars can indeed be very unforgiving in pcars, like the old F1 cars or the Mono in the wet, but it is those that you expect to be unforgiving.

I tend to think of such cars as being spiteful but in their own natural way.

Remember Christine...

 

[blowfishrulez]

To me, pCars has the most 'organic' ffb experience. The black magic lies with transforming the output of the physics simulation to the player, the goal is to include the player in the simulation loop. SMS has managed to do this really well and the 'organic' feel is a result of faithful ffb, visual and audio responses to the players input. Throttle response, and the feel for the shifting weight distribution of the cars are outstanding in pCars. All while using no 'canned' effects at all.

 

[LogiForce]

To me, pCars has the most 'organic' ffb experience. The black magic lies with transforming the output of the physics simulation to the player, the goal is to include the player in the simulation loop. SMS has managed to do this really well and the 'organic' feel is a result of faithful ffb, visual and audio responses to the players input. Throttle response, and the feel for the shifting weight distribution of the cars are outstanding in pCars. All while using no 'canned' effects at all.

I had to protest against those canned effects for a long time though. I think it was hard to let go of something you got used to driving with for so many years, as your muscle memory reacts to certain trained impulses after all those years.
For me personally I really didn't want to go back to canned effects, cause having complete physics driven FFB was just so much more natural.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I had to protest against those canned effects for a long time though. I think it was hard to let go of something you got used to driving with for so many years, as your muscle memory reacts to certain trained impulses after all those years.
For me personally I really didn't want to go back to canned effects, cause having complete physics driven FFB was just so much more natural.

I think I asked this already but I've forgotten , but are the "canned" effects still optional in the game? Like enhancing the effect of oversteer on the wheel for example? I'd rather play without them if possible but I know some people will still like to play around with the different effect to achieve their personal best feel in the game.

 

[LogiForce]

I think I asked this already but I've forgotten , but are the "canned" effects still optional in the game? Like enhancing the effect of oversteer on the wheel for example? I'd rather play without them if possible but I know some people will still like to play around with the different effect to achieve their personal best feel in the game.

Yes, they are an option. You can change the forcefeedback in depth with all options available.
Basically you are getting all the settings we had available at development time as well. So expect to get dizzy as you will be overwhelmed by it, and that you possibly make the forcefeedback worse at times as well.

 

[Captain Roh]

My only worry about having so much control over these parameters is that I get so obsessed by it that I can never enjoy myself.

For example you take car X to the track and not only do you have to learn the car and physics models nuances you also have to dial in you're own FOV, FFB and god knows what else. You finally get everything perfect and then you take out car Y. Godammit!! Everything feels wrong, so you dive back in and fine tune everything once more.

This back and forth could get to the point where every time you turn a wheel you feel the need to tweak A B C to the extent that you never really just sit down and play!

Is it possible to achieve a 'one setting to rule them all' kind of setup with regards to feedback and FOV and driving aids and the like?

As much as I appreciate the ability to have so much control, I don't want that ability to take control over me

 

[LogiForce]

My only worry about having so much control over these parameters is that I get so obsessed by it that I can never enjoy myself.

For example you take car X to the track and not only do you have to learn the car and physics models nuances you also have to dial in you're own FOV, FFB and god knows what else. You finally get everything perfect and then you take out car Y. Godammit!! Everything feels wrong, so you dive back in and fine tune everything once more.

This back and forth could get to the point where every time you turn a wheel you feel the need to tweak A B C to the extent that you never really just sit down and play!

Is it possible to achieve a 'one setting to rule them all' kind of setup with regards to feedback and FOV and driving aids and the like?

As much as I appreciate the ability to have so much control, I don't want that ability to take control over me

Someone finally realizes why it is that we took so long to tweak everything, besides having to learn how a new tyre model behaves.
I'm sure you can imagine how round and round we went. Plus everyone having different wheels and thus different experiences, and so on.

The one setup to rule them all is the default setup. WMD has been testing and tweaking the FFB for years now and with SMS we have come to wheel specific defaults which give the best general experience.

As has been said, but Project CARS is all about options. You can tweak it completely to your liking or you can settle for the default which is really great already. It's all up to you.

That said, as far as your worry goes. I think you should drive with the default in the beginning and as the community tries new settings for your wheel... you can than try those settings with the ability to revert back to default.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My only worry about having so much control over these parameters is that I get so obsessed by it that I can never enjoy myself.

For example you take car X to the track and not only do you have to learn the car and physics models nuances you also have to dial in you're own FOV, FFB and god knows what else. You finally get everything perfect and then you take out car Y. Godammit!! Everything feels wrong, so you dive back in and fine tune everything once more.

This back and forth could get to the point where every time you turn a wheel you feel the need to tweak A B C to the extent that you never really just sit down and play!

Is it possible to achieve a 'one setting to rule them all' kind of setup with regards to feedback and FOV and driving aids and the like?

As much as I appreciate the ability to have so much control, I don't want that ability to take control over me

As someone who just recently went through this experience with AC I can tell you I was a little overwhelmed at first, but it was mostly in trying to figure out what each slider did to the FFB. After about a month of trying a few different tweaks I settled on a group of settings and haven't touched it since. If the game engine is done well and I believe it will be, you won't want to change the settings between cars because what you'll be doing is overriding the base information the game is providing you and confusing your senses. Some cars oversteer more than others for example, but the sensation or transition to oversteer and the oversteer itself should feel relatively the same between cars, especially on the same tire model. If you tweek the "slippage" (made up name) setting of the FFB for example from one car to the next, the sensation of oversteer will change from one car to the next, even for the same oversteer, if that makes sense. You'll have to train your brain to respond to the same physics differently because the information you get from the wheel will be different for the same physics information.

You'll experiment for a while, find out what you like, then peg it there for all cars. Start with the default as @LogiForce suggest and you may never leave there. If you do, change one thing at a time on one car, preferably a relatively neutral handling and easy car to drive and go from there. Believe me, exploring and discovering how everything works is half the fun!!

 

[BrandonW77]

I think I asked this already but I've forgotten , but are the "canned" effects still optional in the game? Like enhancing the effect of oversteer on the wheel for example? I'd rather play without them if possible but I know some people will still like to play around with the different effect to achieve their personal best feel in the game.

I'm pretty sure you use the canned effects in AC though (road feel, slip feel, kerb feel). Or at least it's my understanding that those are generally considered "canned effects".

 

[Captain Roh]

@LogiForce @Johnnypenso

Could you recommend a 'path' one should take to dial in these effects proper? I will probably as you both suggest try default settings to begin with, maybe selecting my favourite track and most desired car for a few hot laps.. However myself as most other console racers might worry that as good as the effects are, in your experienced opinions, they're set to be something far removed from what we may be used to at the moment.

Feeling alien feedback through the wheel i would attribute to the advanced models at work and therefore accept that it's 'correct' and adapt my driving style as opposed to the games output.

Now I do drive in real life and I drive a rear wheel drive car, have owned front wheel drive cars, and briefly borrowed 4wd cars. I would like to think I would recognise the real physics at play in Pcars. However I do understand that the sensation of driving is far removed from gaming, regardless of how good the software is at representing it.

So, to my original question, is there a tried and tested 'ritual' sim racers go through to dial in their preferences? Or will this process be completely subjective and take experience and playing around to perfect?

I think I kind of envisaged driving a FF to get the understeer feedback dialed in, FR for oversteer, MR for weight transition and so on. Quite an undertaking! If not as you say Johnny, half the fun 👍

 

[LogiForce]

I'm pretty sure you use the canned effects in AC though (road feel, slip feel, kerb feel). Or at least it's my understanding that those are generally considered "canned effects".

Canned effects are pre-designed effects by the developer. These can be either effects to provide you with information that you'd otherwise feel through other parts of your body, but they can also be fixed effects like kerb impacts or other tyre load effects.

So it really is canned as in something that is prepped for use.


So yeah, those are exposed canned effects. Although I do know that AC uses a seat-of-pants/weight transfer effect which I wish I could switch off.

 

[LogiForce]

@LogiForce @Johnnypenso

Could you recommend a 'path' one should take to dial in these effects proper? I will probably as you both suggest try default settings to begin with, maybe selecting my favourite track and most desired car for a few hot laps.. However myself as most other console racers might worry that as good as the effects are, in your experienced opinions, they're set to be something far removed from what we may be used to at the moment.

Feeling alien feedback through the wheel i would attribute to the advanced models at work and therefore accept that it's 'correct' and adapt my driving style as opposed to the games output.

Now I do drive in real life and I drive a rear wheel drive car, have owned front wheel drive cars, and briefly borrowed 4wd cars. I would like to think I would recognise the real physics at play in Pcars. However I do understand that the sensation of driving is far removed from gaming, regardless of how good the software is at representing it.

So, to my original question, is there a tried and tested 'ritual' sim racers go through to dial in their preferences? Or will this process be completely subjective and take experience and playing around to perfect?

I think I kind of envisaged driving a FF to get the understeer feedback dialed in, FR for oversteer, MR for weight transition and so on. Quite an undertaking! If not as you say Johnny, half the fun 👍

Pfff, you're asking a lot here even though it's just one question. Where do I even begin?

Personally I'm of the 'keep things as linear and pure' camp. Meaning I do not tweak the FFB at all.
This preference does differ from wheel to wheel though, but as a CSWv2 user I have enough power to keep things linear. I don't have to tweak the FFB in such way that I try to remove any wheel hardware flaws as much as possible.

As far as a path to follow... it's hard to say. Personally I would start as follows...

Spindle -> Seat of Pants -> Relative Torque Adjust -> Gut -> Arm -> Soft clipping -> Scoop (low torque wheels) -> Tighten Center (reduces wheel FFB-center deadzone) -> Damping/Wheelbase drag reduction.


I'm sure that seems abracadabra right now, but...
- The spindle is as the name implies the front wheel spindles to which your steering wheel is attached. Which can be balanced in all directions (Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz) as well as spindle arm angle (the arm to which the tie-rod end is attached).
- Seat-of-Pants is the rear end weight transfer effect.
- Relative Torque is a bit of a difficult one to explain. This system calculates the present torque by looking at the torque change over time. Which is different than the absolute torque of the spindle, and due to the change of torque direction the wheel center can wander over time unless you bleed that absolute torque back in.
- Gut simulation. This is the physical simulation of body movement that is translated to force feedback.
- Arm simulation. This simulations that the wheel is by a non rigid linkage, namely the driver's arms, as well as play and mass of said linkages. (it's a sort of simulated dampening/smoothing)
- Soft clipping. This is sort of a compressor as you'd see in a professional audio environment. However, it is best to prevent clipping altogether by reducing levels of above mentioned items.
- Scoop. This is for devices that go flat in response at higher force levels. It reduces lower forces more and higher forces less.
- Tighten center. This removes the forcefeedback center deadzones (not physical wheel center) which is at the zero force point of the forcefeedback.
- Damping. This counters the inherent drag of a steering wheel which is natural present due to its hardware design. This counters that by using a negative base drag, leaving you with a more natural responding wheel if set correctly.



I hope this gives you some idea of what will await you, but I think many will find the default more than good enough. Too good probably to even bother with the above.

Among all the WMD members we were with a VERY SMALL group of members that involved themselves with the above. I'm sure everyone will be able to guess why.

 

[blowfishrulez]

Very good summary! With my T300, at the moment i just have to tweak the master scale in the car setup to even out the different tire compounds. Sometimes i wish for a simple 'linear' checkbox though...

 

[LogiForce]

Very good summary! With my T300, at the moment i just have to tweak the master scale in the car setup to even out the different tire compounds. Sometimes i wish for a simple 'linear' checkbox though...

You do realize that the grip of a Slick should produce more resistance than a Rain tyre I hope? A flat slab of rubber versus an intermitted (by tread pattern) slab of rubber should feel different.
Even a soft slick versus a hard slick should feel different.

Also if it differs per car, it could be because of things like... tyre pressures, camber, caster. So the setup parameters.


Oh well... to each his own though.

 

[blowfishrulez]

Of course i do. Im talking about virtually no FFB and near clipping FFB from car to car and tire to tire. And a Lotus 72D that gives me no FFB at all, while a Lotus 98T or any of the GT cars feel great out of the box is what i have to dial in atm!

 

[Captain Roh]

Pfff, you're asking a lot here even though it's just one question. Where do I even begin?

Personally I'm of the 'keep things as linear and pure' camp. Meaning I do not tweak the FFB at all.
This preference does differ from wheel to wheel though, but as a CSWv2 user I have enough power to keep things linear. I don't have to tweak the FFB in such way that I try to remove any wheel hardware flaws as much as possible.

As far as a path to follow... it's hard to say. Personally I would start as follows...

Spindle -> Seat of Pants -> Relative Torque Adjust -> Gut -> Arm -> Soft clipping -> Scoop (low torque wheels) -> Tighten Center (reduces wheel FFB-center deadzone) -> Damping/Wheelbase drag reduction.


I'm sure that seems abracadabra right now, but...
- The spindle is as the name implies the front wheel spindles to which your steering wheel is attached. Which can be balanced in all directions (Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz) as well as spindle arm angle (the arm to which the tie-rod end is attached).
- Seat-of-Pants is the rear end weight transfer effect.
- Relative Torque is a bit of a difficult one to explain. This system calculates the present torque by looking at the torque change over time. Which is different than the absolute torque of the spindle, and due to the change of torque direction the wheel center can wander over time unless you bleed that absolute torque back in.
- Gut simulation. This is the physical simulation of body movement that is translated to force feedback.
- Arm simulation. This simulations that the wheel is by a non rigid linkage, namely the driver's arms, as well as play and mass of said linkages. (it's a sort of simulated dampening/smoothing)
- Soft clipping. This is sort of a compressor as you'd see in a professional audio environment. However, it is best to prevent clipping altogether by reducing levels of above mentioned items.
- Scoop. This is for devices that go flat in response at higher force levels. It reduces lower forces more and higher forces less.
- Tighten center. This removes the forcefeedback center deadzones (not physical wheel center) which is at the zero force point of the forcefeedback.
- Damping. This counters the inherent drag of a steering wheel which is natural present due to its hardware design. This counters that by using a negative base drag, leaving you with a more natural responding wheel if set correctly.



I hope this gives you some idea of what will await you, but I think many will find the default more than good enough. Too good probably to even bother with the above.

Among all the WMD members we were with a VERY SMALL group of members that involved themselves with the above. I'm sure everyone will be able to guess why.

 

[LogiForce]

Of course i do. Im talking about virtually no FFB and near clipping FFB from car to car and tire to tire. And a Lotus 72D that gives me no FFB at all, while a Lotus 98T or any of the GT cars feel great out of the box is what i have to dial in atm!

That's indeed a bit too much. I guess the car specific TF-multi hasn't been set properly yet for the L72D. Did you let Doug know about this in the L72D thread?

 

[blowfishrulez]

Yes i did. However, the other guys think this car is perfectly fine.

 

[LogiForce]

Yes i did. However, the other guys think this car is perfectly fine.

Odd. Wish I had the time to double check it.

The only other thing I can think of is that the FFB Strength slider in the Controller menu might be at 50% instead of 100%. Depending on your wheel that might cause the huge swing in strength that you feel.

Other than that... old profile? Although I doubt it as an active member.

 

[blowfishrulez]

Ya, my daily routine ;-) Anyways - as i see, there is another wave of discussion regarding FFB about to evolve over at WMD. *Popcorn prepare*

 

[TheDrummingKING]

You need to changed the overall spindle strength on the 72D depending on what tire you use. The FFB on the '74 tire for me is fantastic at about 50% strength (I think that's what it was at).

 

[Deadly Dave5]

Hi all,

Just a quick say that i will be streaming Project cars tonight online with a few mates, also we are now testing the A.I out.

if interested ill be online around 7 pm GMT 20/02.15.

http://www.twitch.tv/deadly_dave5

Also if any of you would like to join us on track and are of a fairly quick pace and able to race cleanly then add me on steam and send me a message.

deadly_dave5

also teamspeak is a must.

Dave....

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I am a bit curious about both the physics and the tuning options available. Does PCars allow all four wheels to be tuned separately in regards to springs, dampers, tire pressure? What other tuning options are there? Ecu?, Turbo?

How does the game feel compared to something like GTR2 ?

 

[blowfishrulez]

I am a bit curious about both the physics and the tuning options available. Does PCars allow all four wheels to be tuned separately in regards to springs, dampers, tire pressure? What other tuning options are there? Ecu?, Turbo?

How does the game feel compared to something like GTR2 ?

Yes, suspension, tire pressure can be tuned for every corner separately.

GTR2 feels static and uses mostly canned FFB effects, while PCars generates FFB forces directly from the tire and steering rack simulations. This leads to a much more "organic" feeling - like you would expect from a hydraulic power steering or non power steered car. Some examples: You just can't turn the wheel in the Ford GT40 while standing still, and you won't feel a canned rumble in the wheel when you go over a curb that is actually just a flat, painted slab of concrete. The always shifting inertia of the car can be felt in the wheel very naturally and progressively.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am a bit curious about both the physics and the tuning options available. Does PCars allow all four wheels to be tuned separately in regards to springs, dampers, tire pressure? What other tuning options are there? Ecu?, Turbo?

How does the game feel compared to something like GTR2 ?

I don't believe there are any add on parts to any cars. All the tuning is adjusting existing parts on the car and the more adjustable the car is in real life, the more it is in the game. A modern, purpose built race car will have the most options, street cars the least.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I don't believe there are any add on parts to any cars. All the tuning is adjusting existing parts on the car and the more adjustable the car is in real life, the more it is in the game. A modern, purpose built race car will have the most options, street cars the least.

Yes I am aware that there are no "upgrades" or "mods" to install. I was referring to tuning. I have no idea why so many people here at GTP refer to throwing a bunch of parts on a car as tuning but that is another topic.

I was wondering if the tuning options are really detailed to the point that you could tune the ECU or in older cars the spark timing, Turbo or whatever. Would be nice to have an idea of what the range of tuning options are.

Being able to add parts is always cool as well but I am more interested in what the game allows you to tweak.

 

[blowfishrulez]

I was wondering if the tuning options are really detailed to the point that you could tune the ECU or in older cars the spark timing, Turbo or whatever

There are no setup options to increase power output, except for the wastegate pressure in racing cars that have a variable wastegate. That obviously comes with the tradeoff of more difficult handling, increased fuel consumption as well as mechanical problems that will occur.

 

[WarriusZero]

These last few posts are very interesting and the little thing about not being to turn the wheel at a standstill is one of my favourites. Low speed physics are often pants, especially in GT.

 

[LogiForce]

These last few posts are very interesting and the little thing about not being to turn the wheel at a standstill is one of my favourites. Low speed physics are often pants, especially in GT.

After having high speed behavior roughly in the ballpark about 1 to 1.5 years ago, we really focused on low speed behavior.
We actually had whole discussions about moose/elk tests and why certain cars didn't seem to respond fast enough, or even understeered at moose test speeds.
At that time our pro-drivers also noticed this discussion and put extra focus on slow speed cornering as well, with a result in that we have believable slow speed and standstil behavior.

Mind you at first we had a canned effect that kicked in at standstil as we encountered oscillation at standstil, but even that is gone now. Now the tyre model naturally gives that rubber feel, and I really have to use some muscle to turn the wheel at standstil with the CSWv2.

Most amazing is the fact that we do not use a simplified slow speed tyre model, but the tyre model in pCARS is full range. So you get proper transitions from slow to fast (or back) and equally complex behavior at slow speeds as at high speeds.