Played Forza demo, was not impressed

[evolutionmb]

I just bought the Xbox magazine yesterday, and Froza Motorsports is one of the demos. For those of you that speculated that it was going to be better than GT4, I will give you my review of the demo. I realize that this is ONLY a demo but, most demos are close to the actual gameplay of a released game.

1) Graphics = Forza doesn't even come close to (GT3) as far as realistic car graphics, or backgrounds. I own an Evo 8, but the in-game car doesn't even come close to the level of detail on my car. The headlights are the biggest joke, as they look like they are stickers placed on the car and not lenses. I went back to GT3 to look at how realistic they are on the Evo 7 and R34 to do the comparison = not even close. Body molding/clading on the Evo are barely visible in the Forza rendition. All Xbox racing games look exactly the same to me be it the PG series, SGT, etc..... they all look like water colors and bleached out. Forza is not the exception in this group, as I had a hard time reading the depth of a braking zone, because the colors were so washed out for me to see. Laguna Seca is the only track available on the demo, so I compared the detail levels on each system, and the PS2 version of GT3 has much better clarity and details then the Xbox version Advantage GT3
P.S = I did appreciate the damage modeling in Forza, and wished that the GT series would have something similar to that in the future.

2) Physics/Gameplay = Forza so far has no duel analog sticks for gas/brake. Players have to use the trigger buttons to go-stop and that hurts my hands after a couple of laps, so the advantage goes to GT3 as far as utilizing the basic controller set-up. Forza also lacks in the department of car Physics with the Xbox controller. This is my biggest pet-peve in a racing game. The initial turn-in for Forza is WAY too strong, as your car will slowdown significantly from just a small analog adjustment. I had to countersteer often to have my car go in a straight line after I made a directional change, which slows you down significantly for lap times. Sega GT has the exact same problem, as well as any F-1 racing games on Xbox. GT3 controlls let you feather the analog sticks for precise movements, and feel superior in all respects IMO. When comparing lap times against GT3 and Forza I used the Evo 7 from GT3 against the Evo 8 from Forza to see how well they compared to realistic track times. The Evo 8 obviously in the newer version of the car, and does have the same 4G63 engine, plus additional hardware added to improve regidity and response. One would think that the Evo 8 was an improved version of the car, but I was consistantly 6-8 seconds behind my GT3 times, if Laguna Seca was rendered correctly and to scale. It just seems that I was constantly thinking about how to drive the car in Foarza, and not how to read the line to achieve the fastest time. Advantage = GT3

Sound = Both games have pretty realistic sounding cars, so that would be considered a tie in my mind. Players will notice the difference in sound quality when their cars run off the track. In Forza it sounds pretty generic when you hit gravel, like you are rubbing sandpaper over cement.
Overall advantage = GT3 for additional trackside sound clips.

IMO I think that Forza so far is Gran Turismo Ver. 2.5 / NFSU 2 mixture. Not a noteworthy purchase if you own both systems. I am unsure if Microsoft can compete with GT4, when they can not make a racing game that even beats GT3. Tell me what you think of these 3 key areas if you get a chance to play the demo!

 

[Symtex]

You may wan to use the forza thread

Although I agree with some of the pet peeves mention in your review concerning colors being bleach out, I do not agree with your comments on physics and sounds. here's the reason why :

I think you have more control with the trigger then any analog button. You can really control your throttle or brake pressure very easily. I think a Wheel like the Logitech would be alot better then any controller.

if you have an Digital 5.1 sound system, Forza souds incredible. Remember the Forza demo is about 6 month old

 

[Jedi2016]

*waits for the Xbox fanboys to point out that it's a very old demo*

Which doesn't really make that much difference.. the GT4 demo everybody's playing is also "old".

 

[RoxxorJoorSoxxo]

Also note that the oiginal poster is comparing to GT3.

 

[Pak]

*waits for the Xbox fanboys to point out that it's a very old demo*

Which doesn't really make that much difference.. the GT4 demo everybody's playing is also "old".

Yeah, but isn't the Forza demo from a build that was 40% finished? And the GT4 demo close to TGS?

 

[Symtex]

*waits for the Xbox fanboys to point out that it's a very old demo*

Which doesn't really make that much difference.. the GT4 demo everybody's playing is also "old".

I agree with you. Demo are always old and never a fair representation of the final product. Forza does have is share of bland or wash out color. I thought GT4 had more vibrant color. You've got to give each game there dues.

 

[tha_con]

Yeah, but isn't the Forza demo from a build that was 40% finished? And the GT4 demo close to TGS?

That has only been stated on ONE demo, and never again. The 40% demo had nada. Yet people are playing other demo's with body kits and other new features, yet people STILL say..."well it's only 40% complete". No. That 40% bs is just that. 40% of what and according to who? Hell they could STILL say it's 40%, then tomorrow say since it's done it's now 100%....there is no "measurement"...that's just their "guess". No, it's not 40%, and no one has ever confirmed that all of these Forza demos are exactly alike, because they are not. You will never see anyone defend GT because the demo is "xx% complete"...because it's just rediculous.

 

[Jedi2016]

I watched some "old" videos of Forza over on IGN. Which seem to be about as old as the demo, from the descriptions I've heard.

The comparison to GT3 is an apt one. I don't think anyone who plays the demo can truthfully say that it looks better than GT3. And GT3 is three years old. Forza is brand new, on a superior system. The excuse that the demo is old doesn't quite excuse that much of it... GT4 looked better than this a YEAR AGO, while still in development. GT3 looked better than this at release, three years ago.

I have a feeling that the final game isn't going to be that much better than the demo. Some improvements here and there, little tweaks and such, which is normal. But I doubt it will get the total overhaul that it obviously needs.

 

[EGFerio]

My friend try the Forza demo and he said it feels like driving on ice.

 

[Sven]

Yeah, but isn't the Forza demo from a build that was 40% finished? And the GT4 demo close to TGS?

Actually, I think TGS and E3 '04 used the same engine, but just had different content, which would mean the GT4 demo is based on a 6+ month old engine. I can't be sure though.

 

[RoxxorJoorSoxxo]

I watched some "old" videos of Forza over on IGN. Which seem to be about as old as the demo, from the descriptions I've heard.

The comparison to GT3 is an apt one. I don't think anyone who plays the demo can truthfully say that it looks better than GT3. And GT3 is three years old. Forza is brand new, on a superior system. The excuse that the demo is old doesn't quite excuse that much of it... GT4 looked better than this a YEAR AGO, while still in development. GT3 looked better than this at release, three years ago.

I have a feeling that the final game isn't going to be that much better than the demo. Some improvements here and there, little tweaks and such, which is normal. But I doubt it will get the total overhaul that it obviously needs.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Jedi2016]

The other thing to remember is that GT4's physics engine has been locked for at least a year now.. all the various demos have used it. All they've been doing since then is tweaking it.. adding cars, making minor adjustments, little things. Unless Forza's physics and graphics engine gets a total overhaul in the meantime, it won't even be as good as GT3, much less GT4.

 

[Pak]

That has only been stated on ONE demo, and never again.

Ok I thought it was the same demo, my bad.

You will never see anyone defend GT because the demo is "xx% complete"...because it's just rediculous.

No it's not, it wouldn't be weird if someone defended Live for Speed because it's only at 1/3d of the final game either.

The excuse that the demo is old doesn't quite excuse that much of it... GT4 looked better than this a YEAR AGO, while still in development. GT3 looked better than this at release, three years ago.

Yeah graphics probably won't improve much, it'll prolly have more polygons, higher-reso textures etc. but if they use wrong colors it won't look realistic. But physics can improve alot with the time they have.

 

[RoxxorJoorSoxxo]

Yeah...GT2 better watch out...Forza is coming!!!

 

[Jedi2016]

You will never see anyone defend GT because the demo is "xx% complete"

That's the wonderful thing about GT.. we don't have to defend it. The Toyota demo is six months old.. I think the BMW demo is right around that age, too. Yet they're both far superior to Forza in both graphics and gameplay.

 

[SaintKamus]

Forza is ok... but untill i see what they plan to do about a steering wheel, it's nothing but useless for me. the graphics are not up to the level of GT4, by far. mainly because the shaders suck. this could change. the sounds... they seem a tad better than in GT4 when it comes to engine sounds, tyres i'm not so sure off. (engine sounds do seem better, but only the engines themselves, no wind sounds at all though, unlike GT4)

it seems promising, but untill i play it with a steering wheel, there's just no comparasion, sucks playing racing sims with a controller... it's fine for burnout or NFSU, but playing a sim with out a steering wheel is blasphemy.

 

[Symtex]

That's the wonderful thing about GT.. we don't have to defend it. The Toyota demo is six months old.. I think the BMW demo is right around that age, too. Yet they're both far superior to Forza in both graphics and gameplay.

The difference between any GT4 demo and Forza is the following : Gt4 is using GT3 graphics engine and has been more polish by PD. Also GT3 had already all the previous car / track model before except for the new one. So you can say that PD had a major leg up from Forza

Forza was build from scratch. everything had to be build. The reason why we say the build is old is the demo has to be submit to OXM 6 month prior to publication. That information has been give by OXM editor when asked why all the demos were old build.

 

[Jedi2016]

GT4 is also built from scratch. While some of the cars and tracks are returning from previous games, they're all-new models, with all-new physics calculations. Besides, when comparing demos, that argument doesn't hold up.. Take the Toyota demo, for example. Fuji Speedway and Grand Canyon, two tracks never seen in GT before, built from scratch. Toyota Prius and MTRC, both all-new cars never seen in GT before. Ditto for the BMW demo.. new cars, new tracks.

My point is that a 6-month old demo of GT4 is far superior to a six-month old demo of Forza. I don't think you can argue that point.

 

[Symtex]

GT4 is also built from scratch. While some of the cars and tracks are returning from previous games, they're all-new models, with all-new physics calculations. Besides, when comparing demos, that argument doesn't hold up.. Take the Toyota demo, for example. Fuji Speedway and Grand Canyon, two tracks never seen in GT before, built from scratch. Toyota Prius and MTRC, both all-new cars never seen in GT before. Ditto for the BMW demo.. new cars, new tracks.

My point is that a 6-month old demo of GT4 is far superior to a six-month old demo of Forza. I don't think you can argue that point.

I agree but GT4 use the same graphics engine has GT3. Physics is something else. The Forza demo was bland and wash out color. no one can denies that. Will the final build look the same : i doubt but we will have to wait and see.

 

[Sven]

Forza is ok... but untill i see what they plan to do about a steering wheel, it's nothing but useless for me.

X-box doesn't support force feedback wheels

The thing about Forza's graphics is that it's very impressive from a technical standpoint, but it just doesn't look real.

And GT4 definately doesn't use the GT3 graphics engine.

 

[erahk64]

The reason why we say the build is old is the demo has to be submit to OXM 6 month prior to publication. That information has been give by OXM editor when asked why all the demos were old build.

Did you get that info from OXM or a forum?

 

[erahk64]

X-box doesn't support force feedback wheels

According to this interview force feedback wheels on XBOX seems to be possible.

http://www.xboxaddict.com/interviews/view_interview.php?Interview_ID=48

 

[SaintKamus]

That's the wonderful thing about GT.. we don't have to defend it. The Toyota demo is six months old.. I think the BMW demo is right around that age, too. Yet they're both far superior to Forza in both graphics and gameplay.

Graphics are inferior, no doubt. but then, they do have a damage system, and while it's far from acurate, it's also far better than none at all. (it's far from acurate in the demo, but maybe the final game will have a "real damage" mode, maybe...)
as far as gameplay goes... i think we have to give it the benefit of doubt untill there's a steering wheel. beause both games are very forgiving with the controller.
but GT4 changes dramaticly if using a steering wheel. (meaning, a lot of dumbing down takes place in GT series for the DS2, wich is understandable. it wouldn't be playable otherwise with it.)

As far as car models go, forza has an edge here, you can see the driver from outside, and some of the interiors too, in GT4 you can just see a shadow (unless of course, it's a convertible with the top down )
but even with the higher polygon count, GT4 outlooks it, because forza's shaders are awful, and the color pallete doesn't seem as high, GT4 kinda "cheats" in making the game look good (like for instance, making the lightning look better than it really is by using highly stylized car textures).

all in all, i think forza will be a great x-box game, and i think comparing it to GT4 is comparing apples to oranges, they are two different beasts that made compromises for different reasons, as a "whole" GT4 is a far bigger game than forza is, but that doesn't mean forza will suck.

if i have one other gripe is that the demo (forza) didn't include an F50 or enzo, the F360 engine note is great (it sounds awsome). but after hearing an F50 on the track i've been spoiled, that thing sounds amazing.

 

[Jedi2016]

And GT4 definately doesn't use the GT3 graphics engine.

I agree.. there are too many differences. The assumption that it uses the same graphics engine is probably because they look so similar. GT3 looked quite amazing, still one of the best-looking games on the PS2. Just because GT4 uses a new graphics engine doesn't mean it's going to look drastically different. There are plenty of examples out there.. games from different developers using entirely different technologies and engines, yet the games end up looking very similar. Happens all the time.

 

[Symtex]

I agree.. there are too many differences. The assumption that it uses the same graphics engine is probably because they look so similar. GT3 looked quite amazing, still one of the best-looking games on the PS2. Just because GT4 uses a new graphics engine doesn't mean it's going to look drastically different. There are plenty of examples out there.. games from different developers using entirely different technologies and engines, yet the games end up looking very similar. Happens all the time.

I dont' remember reading anything on GT4 using a differrent graphics engine. I did saw a video with Kaz saying they though they had max out the PS2 when they did GT3 . They used to new technique to optimized what they add before. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

I always said that the GT series has a major avantage over any franchise on xbox : The Logitech Driver Pro wheel. Microsoft has not come forward with anything yet and I don't think that xbox was build natively to support such FF Wheel.

Overall, I think that Both product will be worth purchasing. They offer something different. When the Forza developper was asked if Forza was a "GT Killer", he quicly said he was not aiming to be a GT clone but a whole difference experience.

 

[Symtex]

Did you get that info from OXM or a forum?

OXM, it was letter send to the magazine.

 

[spawn9999999]

I just tried my Forza demo with my MC2 yesterday....

IT SUCKED!!! The cars are impossible to control. They don't go straight (No FF=can't hold car in line). The steering inputs I put in were way different than what happened in the game. By maybe 75 degrees, the car was at its full turning ability. The last turn of Seca, I constantly hit the inside wall due to this. The braking inputs sucked too. I would barely tap the brake, and the car would lock up and spin, even though the wheel was being held straight. Until a wheel with FF is made, Forza cannot touch GT3 and GT4's control ability.

 

[Symtex]

I just tried my Forza demo with my MC2 yesterday....

IT SUCKED!!! The cars are impossible to control. They don't go straight (No FF=can't hold car in line). The steering inputs I put in were way different than what happened in the game. By maybe 75 degrees, the car was at its full turning ability. The last turn of Seca, I constantly hit the inside wall due to this. The braking inputs sucked too. I would barely tap the brake, and the car would lock up and spin, even though the wheel was being held straight. Until a wheel with FF is made, Forza cannot touch GT3 and GT4's control ability.

Well.. the MC2 is not very good but as far as hitting the brake too hard will make the wheel lock and spin the car. I haven't tried the demo with a wheel but I think your driving skill may not be up to part yet with the game physics.

 

[Pak]

IT SUCKED!!! The cars are impossible to control. They don't go straight (No FF=can't hold car in line). The steering inputs I put in were way different than what happened in the game. By maybe 75 degrees, the car was at its full turning ability. The last turn of Seca, I constantly hit the inside wall due to this. The braking inputs sucked too. I would barely tap the brake, and the car would lock up and spin, even though the wheel was being held straight.

Sounds very promising. ^^

 

[subie power]

it is quite incredible that people would even say forza is on par with gt4. ive read all the excuses on the previous page saying the demo is 6 months old, this is no excuse for the game to be worse than gt3, which is more than 2 years old. iv also downloaded some recent forza fotage from the website and i was amazded out how crap the cars look, and how unrelistic the cars handle as well. they showed body kits and engine modding with no real skill being involved. this game is just a slightly more realistic nfsu2. there is no other game that can match gt4 in car physics such as handiling strightline speed and the details of evey car in the game. people who like forza can argue all they like about how good forza is but there arguements are unfounded and pathetic, with no substince or ground to stand on. gt4 is a driving simulator and it does just that, with 1% of error, compared to real life. forza is just a stupid driving game hyped up to get a few more people to buy there game, but if u want a real acurate driving simulator then there is no compition, its without a doubt GT4.