Played Forza demo, was not impressed

[Symtex]

it is quite incredible that people would even say forza is on par with gt4. ive read all the excuses on the previous page saying the demo is 6 months old, this is no excuse for the game to be worse than gt3, which is more than 2 years old. iv also downloaded some recent forza fotage from the website and i was amazded out how crap the cars look, and how unrelistic the cars handle as well. they showed body kits and engine modding with no real skill being involved. this game is just a slightly more realistic nfsu2. there is no other game that can match gt4 in car physics such as handiling strightline speed and the details of evey car in the game. people who like forza can argue all they like about how good forza is but there arguements are unfounded and pathetic, with no substince or ground to stand on. gt4 is a driving simulator and it does just that, with 1% of error, compared to real life. forza is just a stupid driving game hyped up to get a few more people to buy there game, but if u want a real acurate driving simulator then there is no compition, its without a doubt GT4.

Have you ever play the GTR demo ? I think it's more sim that any other game i ever experience so far. I understand also that you like the GT series has being on the GT fansite but you have to realise there is other product on the market that are more "SIM" than GT4. If you drive in forza like you drive in GT4, you are bound to fail miserably.

By comparing Forza to NFSU:2, you have lost any credibility of your post. Now i do like the GT4 series as much as anyone on this site but I do not swear only by it.

 

[Pak]

there is no other game that can match gt4 in car physics

gt4 is a driving simulator and it does just that, with 1% of error, compared to real life

but if u want a real acurate driving simulator then there is no compition, its without a doubt GT4.

HAHA nice one 👍

 

[Jedi2016]

Actually, GT3 did not max out the PS2. GT1 and GT2 maxxed out the PS1, which is why they look virtually identical in terms of graphics quality. And they maxxed it out for a reason. They had a small device (which I don't know the name of) that they hooked up the dev-kit, and it told them exactly how much of the system they were using. In the case of GT1 and GT2, this number was right around 100% of the PS1's capabilities.

When PD made GT3, they didn't have this device, Sony hadn't made one for the PS2 yet. Toward the very end of the production cycle, they did finally get one, but it was too late to effectively use it, as the game was only a month or so from release. But it told them that GT3 was only pushing PS2 to about 25%.

Think about it.. if GT3 had truly maxxed out the capabilities of the PS2, why is it that GT4 is such a big step up? If GT3 was pushing 100%, what's GT4 pushing? 130%? 150%? Needless to say, that's quite impossible.

Are you basing your assumption of GT4's graphics from the videos you've seen here on GTP, or have you actually played one of the demos? The videos are a poor example, due to the lower resolution and compression for online. I've seen hi-res direct-feed video on TV, on a few of the OPM discs, as well as playing one of the demos (the "least" of the demos, the Toyota one). And that Toyota demo, six months old, is far and away above GT3 in the graphics department. GT3 doesn't have anything half as pretty as that Prius putzing it's way around Fuji Speedway.

 

[spawn9999999]

Well.. the MC2 is not very good but as far as hitting the brake too hard will make the wheel lock and spin the car. I haven't tried the demo with a wheel but I think your driving skill may not be up to part yet with the game physics.

The MC2, even though not a great wheel, should give me more control than a controller. IT DIDN'T. Hey buddy, I know that the wheels lock up under hard braking. Did I say I was braking hard? NO! I said I was braking lightly!! And I definetly have enough skill to play the demo!!!!!

 

[Symtex]

Actually, GT3 did not max out the PS2. GT1 and GT2 maxxed out the PS1, which is why they look virtually identical in terms of graphics quality. And they maxxed it out for a reason. They had a small device (which I don't know the name of) that they hooked up the dev-kit, and it told them exactly how much of the system they were using. In the case of GT1 and GT2, this number was right around 100% of the PS1's capabilities.

When PD made GT3, they didn't have this device, Sony hadn't made one for the PS2 yet. Toward the very end of the production cycle, they did finally get one, but it was too late to effectively use it, as the game was only a month or so from release. But it told them that GT3 was only pushing PS2 to about 25%.

Think about it.. if GT3 had truly maxxed out the capabilities of the PS2, why is it that GT4 is such a big step up? If GT3 was pushing 100%, what's GT4 pushing? 130%? 150%? Needless to say, that's quite impossible.

Are you basing your assumption of GT4's graphics from the videos you've seen here on GTP, or have you actually played one of the demos? The videos are a poor example, due to the lower resolution and compression for online. I've seen hi-res direct-feed video on TV, on a few of the OPM discs, as well as playing one of the demos (the "least" of the demos, the Toyota one). And that Toyota demo, six months old, is far and away above GT3 in the graphics department. GT3 doesn't have anything half as pretty as that Prius putzing it's way around Fuji Speedway.

Thanks for your respond. That information about the PS2 maxout has been taken from a video when GT4 was annouce "Gold" status by Kaz himself. If was saying they optimized the way they work and that is how they were able to get a better result.

I have the GT4 Japanese demo. I though Nurburgring was very well done even though I didn't get the chance to complete it (time limit). I have post over 10 picture of me playing the demo to proof that I have the demo.

As far as graphic improvement, I agree, the game has been improved. I also notice that if you stop the car and start looking around, the environement is very well done. nice vibrant color. In motion, the games needs desperatly some anisotropic and Anti-Aliasing. There is still the PS2 / Jaggies look while driving . I have to say at GT4 defence, that it seems in replay mode, the image is cleaner and does produce some clearner shot

Maybe i have been spoiled with my xbox and used to play in 480p but I though even though the Forza demo used bland washed out color, the image was very clean in motion. When I took some screenshot of Forza in motion , they came out much cleaner then anything I have grab on Ps2.

My setup at home is a Hitachi 51'' HDTV and I'm hookup with S-video Monster cable. I have also a 1000w 6.1 Onkyo Surround Sound System.

 

[Sven]

According to this interview force feedback wheels on XBOX seems to be possible.

http://www.xboxaddict.com/interviews/view_interview.php?Interview_ID=48

Well...

To my knowledge, no racing game with more than 150 licensed cars has ever featured an in-car view or visible and performance damage.

...shows what he knows. GT2 had over 500 cars with performance damage, on the PS1! Also, it depends on what you mean by force feedback. Sure you could make it vibrate, or spring-load it to make it go to center, but we're talking true, realistic force feedback here. Even if they do figure out how to do true force feedback, I don't see them matchin the DFP any time soon.

 

[Symtex]

The MC2, even though not a great wheel, should give me more control than a controller. IT DIDN'T. Hey buddy, I know that the wheels lock up under hard braking. Did I say I was braking hard? NO! I said I was braking lightly!! And I definetly have enough skill to play the demo!!!!!

The xbox needs a real FF wheel like the Logitech Driver pro. Alot of people, including me, as also mention that the demo lack feedback with the car while driving. Many reports over the internet have mention this issue to be much better in recent build.

 

[Symtex]

Well...

...shows what he knows. GT2 had over 500 cars with performance damage, on the PS1! Also, it depends on what you mean by force feedback. Sure you could make it vibrate, or spring-load it to make it go to center, but we're talking true, realistic force feedback here. Even if they do figure out how to do true force feedback, I don't see them matchin the DFP any time soon.

You are actually right. Xbox does not support natively a real FF input.

 

[kinigitt]

okay, here's the forza demo in a nutshell:

It's promising. That's about it.

the raw elements are certainly there, but they are not balanced or polished enough to make a good game. They need a better test team or something, because despite an impressive physics engine, the game is just a pain in the ass to control without assists.

Also, the graphics are technically better, but only on paper. When a person looks at both games, anyone with any taste will tell you that the GT series looks much better, and for good reason. Still, the graphics are good, but "good" isn't enough if you want to compete with GT4. One thing I can state in it's favour is the graphics are much cleaner, meaning AA, sharp textures, no blurriness or shimmering. But then again, the framerate is only half of GT's.

Now, the demo is ancient (e3 2004), hardly has any features implemented, and needs a crapload of tweaking to get the "feel" right. But no one can deny the impressive capabilities of the physics engine or A.I., or the accuracy of the track mapping. This game's laguna is far more realistic than GT3's.

As far as engine sounds, this one also takes the cake, as well as tire sounds (GT3's were absolutely horrible). There is no wind noise, and some sound effects sound plain odd. Overall, this game is much better sounding than the GT series, no doubt due to the xbox sound hardware and support of dolby digital. I could really hear cars behind me snorting through the gears from the left side to the right as they tried to pass me.

The scale is heavily tipped in GT4's favour, judging solely by this demo.

 

[Symtex]

okay, here's the forza demo in a nutshell:

It's promising. That's about it.

the raw elements are certainly there, but they are not balanced or polished enough to make a good game. They need a better test team or something, because despite an impressive physics engine, the game is just a pain in the ass to control without assists.

Also, the graphics are technically better, but only on paper. When a person looks at both games, anyone with any taste will tell you that the GT series looks much better, and for good reason. Still, the graphics are good, but "good" isn't enough if you want to compete with GT4. One thing I can state in it's favour is the graphics are much cleaner, meaning AA, sharp textures, no blurriness or shimmering. But then again, the framerate is only half of GT's.

Now, the demo is ancient (e3 2004), hardly has any features implemented, and needs a crapload of tweaking to get the "feel" right. But no one can deny the impressive capabilities of the physics engine or A.I., or the accuracy of the track mapping. This game's laguna is far more realistic than GT3's.

As far as engine sounds, this one also takes the cake, as well as tire sounds (GT3's were absolutely horrible). There is no wind noise, and some sound effects sound plain odd. Overall, this game is much better sounding than the GT series, no doubt due to the xbox sound hardware and support of dolby digital. I could really hear cars behind me snorting through the gears from the left side to the right as they tried to pass me.

The scale is heavily tipped in GT4's favour, judging solely by this demo.

I agree an 100% with you. It's a very fair representation of the demo. I think that any racing fan who own both console should get both product.

 

[kinigitt]

Well...

...shows what he knows. GT2 had over 500 cars with performance damage, on the PS1! Also, it depends on what you mean by force feedback. Sure you could make it vibrate, or spring-load it to make it go to center, but we're talking true, realistic force feedback here. Even if they do figure out how to do true force feedback, I don't see them matchin the DFP any time soon.

ermmm... GT2 did not have an in-car camera view, and the damage was really inconsequential.

 

[Symtex]

ermmm... GT2 did not have an in-car camera view, and the damage was really inconsequential.

Montrealer know better !!!! (i'm from montreal too ) 👍

 

[Jedi2016]

If you're using S-video, how are you able to use progressive? You need component cables to export a progressive signal, S-video uses an interlaced signal just like the standard composite RCA cable. If it's attempting to export a progressive signal, you'll probably only recieve every other frame, so it'll only run at 30fps instead of the proper 60. Or, it'll wind up looking no different from an interlaced signal.

I'll also throw into the mix that a progressive signal taxes the system much more than an interlaced one. In order to export sixty full frames per second, they have to make sacrifices in performance and/or graphics in order to do it. This is precisely why GT4 doesn't support progressive, because the game wouldn't look near as good as it does now.

 

[kinigitt]

If you're using S-video, how are you able to use progressive? You need component cables to export a progressive signal, S-video uses an interlaced signal just like the standard composite RCA cable. If it's attempting to export a progressive signal, you'll probably only recieve every other frame, so it'll only run at 30fps instead of the proper 60. Or, it'll wind up looking no different from an interlaced signal.

I'll also throw into the mix that a progressive signal taxes the system much more than an interlaced one. In order to export sixty full frames per second, they have to make sacrifices in performance and/or graphics in order to do it. This is precisely why GT4 doesn't support progressive, because the game wouldn't look near as good as it does now.

that's probably why the framerate in Forza in 30fps as opposed to GT's 60.

The xbox natively supports progressive scan, so it doesn't tax the system all that much. It's a decent tradeoff for people with good tv's. Playing GT3 on my 42 inch makes the game less pretty because it magnifies the jaggies and blurry textures.

Still, I wish they didn't have to do that to the framerate.

 

[SaintKamus]

okay, here's the forza demo in a nutshell:

It's promising. That's about it.

the raw elements are certainly there, but they are not balanced or polished enough to make a good game. They need a better test team or something, because despite an impressive physics engine, the game is just a pain in the ass to control without assists.

Also, the graphics are technically better, but only on paper. When a person looks at both games, anyone with any taste will tell you that the GT series looks much better, and for good reason. Still, the graphics are good, but "good" isn't enough if you want to compete with GT4. One thing I can state in it's favour is the graphics are much cleaner, meaning AA, sharp textures, no blurriness or shimmering. But then again, the framerate is only half of GT's.

Now, the demo is ancient (e3 2004), hardly has any features implemented, and needs a crapload of tweaking to get the "feel" right. But no one can deny the impressive capabilities of the physics engine or A.I., or the accuracy of the track mapping. This game's laguna is far more realistic than GT3's.

As far as engine sounds, this one also takes the cake, as well as tire sounds (GT3's were absolutely horrible). There is no wind noise, and some sound effects sound plain odd. Overall, this game is much better sounding than the GT series, no doubt due to the xbox sound hardware and support of dolby digital. I could really hear cars behind me snorting through the gears from the left side to the right as they tried to pass me.

The scale is heavily tipped in GT4's favour, judging solely by this demo.

forza hard to control with out assissts? come on, i tought it was the oposite, all i ever left on was ABS (can't really get a feel for the brakes with out a pressure system like brakes from real cars, so you gotta have it on!). i tought it was very easy to control, maybe too easy, need to try it out with a wheel...

 

[kinigitt]

forza hard to control with out assissts? come on, i tought it was the oposite, all i ever left on was ABS (can't really get a feel for the brakes with out a pressure system like brakes from real cars, so you gotta have it on!). i tought it was very easy to control, maybe too easy, need to try it out with a wheel...

compared to GT3 with a pad, absolutely.

I was talking about all assists off. I hadn't thought of turning the abs back on, but the biggest problem lies with the brakes locking up too easily and sending the weight of the car off balance, meaning you have to drive like a grandma just to get through some turns without hitting the sand. It's a lack of control that is totally counterproductive to fun and fast lap times.

 

[T5-R]

Well I've played the Forza demo & I wasn't impressed either. However dispite its flaws its suprising no one has mentioned one of the coolest things about Forza which GT3/4 don't have, paint damage. Of course this doesn't make it a great game, but its cool none the less & the damage is ok.

Otherwise PGR2 & Sega GT look better & RSC2 poops on both of those graphically.

As for GT3 using 25%, I dunno how many times I've said this before but 'hah' yeah right. Was this device Sonys 'emotion engine' per chance GT4 doesn't look much better than GT3 fact, GT4s handling isn't vastly different from GT3s either. GT4 does not use 75% more 'power' its simply more optimised & that doesn't mean 75% more optimised

 

[kinigitt]

Well I've played the Forza demo & I wasn't impressed either. However dispite its flaws its suprising no one has mentioned one of the coolest things about Forza which GT3/4 don't have, paint damage. Of course this doesn't make it a great game, but its cool none the less & the damage is ok.

Otherwise PGR2 & Sega GT look better & RSC2 poops on both of those graphically.

As for GT3 using 25%, I dunno how many times I've said this before but 'hah' yeah right. Was this device Sonys 'emotion engine' per chance GT4 doesn't look much better than GT3 fact, GT4s handling isn't vastly different from GT3s either. GT4 does not use 75% more 'power' its simply more optimised & that doesn't mean 75% more optimised

it just means they've gotten more efficient at coding for a system. They're more familiar with the boundaries and quirks of the platform, therefore they can get better results. There is no magical % that determines how much ressources a game uses.

 

[T5-R]

it just means they've gotten more efficient at coding for a system. They're more familiar with the boundaries and quirks of the platform, therefore they can get better results. There is no magical % that determines how much ressources a game uses.

Erm thats pretty much what I meant, I was referring to Jedis post (#33) mainly (although many people <cough> cobra <cough> have said the same in the past).

 

[kinigitt]

Erm thats pretty much what I meant, I was referring to Jedis post (#33) mainly (although many people <cough> cobra <cough> have said the same in the past).

yeah I didn't mean to quote you.

 

[Jedi2016]

GT4 doesn't look much better than GT3 fact, GT4s handling isn't vastly different from GT3s either.

Are you sure we're talking about the same game here? I've got one of the demos downstairs, and the only real similarity I've seen is the menu music and race start/finish music.

 

[T5-R]

Are you sure we're talking about the same game here? I've got one of the demos downstairs, and the only real similarity I've seen is the menu music and race start/finish music.

GT3 is still a pretty nice looking game, GT4 is simply a bit more polished with more effort put into the tracks & lighting. There isn't much real difference atleast in my opinon. Theres even less of a difference if you compare it to GTC.

Also I'm getting pretty sick of the old menu music

 

[cobragt]

Maybe detail wise, gt4 hasn't changed much from gt3 but in lighting and color, gt4 is a nice leap from gt3. Gt4 simply looks Soo much more realistic than gt3. btw, t5, your ava is just wrong

 

[T5-R]

Maybe detail wise, gt4 hasn't changed much from gt3 but in lighting and color, gt4 is a nice leap from gt3. Gt4 simply looks Soo much more realistic than gt3. btw, t5, your ava is just wrong

Wrong as in (I think) its the first non-Volvo related avatar I've had?

 

[McLaren]

I just bought the Xbox magazine yesterday, and Froza Motorsports is one of the demos. For those of you that speculated that it was going to be better than GT4, I will give you my review of the demo. I realize that this is ONLY a demo but, most demos are close to the actual gameplay of a released game.

1) Graphics = Forza doesn't even come close to (GT3) as far as realistic car graphics, or backgrounds. I own an Evo 8, but the in-game car doesn't even come close to the level of detail on my car. The headlights are the biggest joke, as they look like they are stickers placed on the car and not lenses. I went back to GT3 to look at how realistic they are on the Evo 7 and R34 to do the comparison = not even close. Body molding/clading on the Evo are barely visible in the Forza rendition. All Xbox racing games look exactly the same to me be it the PG series, SGT, etc..... they all look like water colors and bleached out. Forza is not the exception in this group, as I had a hard time reading the depth of a braking zone, because the colors were so washed out for me to see. Laguna Seca is the only track available on the demo, so I compared the detail levels on each system, and the PS2 version of GT3 has much better clarity and details then the Xbox version Advantage GT3
P.S = I did appreciate the damage modeling in Forza, and wished that the GT series would have something similar to that in the future.

2) Physics/Gameplay = Forza so far has no duel analog sticks for gas/brake. Players have to use the trigger buttons to go-stop and that hurts my hands after a couple of laps, so the advantage goes to GT3 as far as utilizing the basic controller set-up. Forza also lacks in the department of car Physics with the Xbox controller. This is my biggest pet-peve in a racing game. The initial turn-in for Forza is WAY too strong, as your car will slowdown significantly from just a small analog adjustment. I had to countersteer often to have my car go in a straight line after I made a directional change, which slows you down significantly for lap times. Sega GT has the exact same problem, as well as any F-1 racing games on Xbox. GT3 controlls let you feather the analog sticks for precise movements, and feel superior in all respects IMO. When comparing lap times against GT3 and Forza I used the Evo 7 from GT3 against the Evo 8 from Forza to see how well they compared to realistic track times. The Evo 8 obviously in the newer version of the car, and does have the same 4G63 engine, plus additional hardware added to improve regidity and response. One would think that the Evo 8 was an improved version of the car, but I was consistantly 6-8 seconds behind my GT3 times, if Laguna Seca was rendered correctly and to scale. It just seems that I was constantly thinking about how to drive the car in Foarza, and not how to read the line to achieve the fastest time. Advantage = GT3

Sound = Both games have pretty realistic sounding cars, so that would be considered a tie in my mind. Players will notice the difference in sound quality when their cars run off the track. In Forza it sounds pretty generic when you hit gravel, like you are rubbing sandpaper over cement.
Overall advantage = GT3 for additional trackside sound clips.

IMO I think that Forza so far is Gran Turismo Ver. 2.5 / NFSU 2 mixture. Not a noteworthy purchase if you own both systems. I am unsure if Microsoft can compete with GT4, when they can not make a racing game that even beats GT3. Tell me what you think of these 3 key areas if you get a chance to play the demo!

SOME of that is just your crap.

GT3 never had a REAL sand sound to it either. IN fact, when I play, there hardly is a sound. Just a car going over sand. Forza's sounds are superior to GT3.
And its a tie? BS again. Forza's cars are perfectly matched. The Toyota GT-ONE sounds like it should in Forza unlike GT3 where it makes its "so called" racing noise. And in GT3, when the cars are still, they hardly make a sound exept when reving. At least in Forza, when they're still, the engine is sounding like it should.

1st part is also bull. That is YOUR Opinion. Some people are fine with that. That is a downfall for some people. FYI, some may not like GT3's set-up, so don't count that as a real downfall of the game.

Body Roll is better in GT3? Don't make me laugh. IT would seem, Forza would do this better. GT3 cars don't lean around a corner at high speeds, unlike Forza. At least the Impreza and Lancer start to roll to one side.


OH and your lap times. Uncomparible. Why?
GT3 features the old set-up of Laguna Seca. How can you tell? B/c the big way to gain time over Forza is that hill and turn after it. The hill part is basically a straighline through the turns, and the turn afterwards you just let off the gas, or gas it.

Forza's featuring of the NEW Laguna Seca is different and harder. The hill part is not straight, so the S-turn acts more like a S-turn. Next turn is wider out, and requires braking of any car.


Think about some things.

 

[Dev_Zero]

If you're using S-video, how are you able to use progressive? You need component cables to export a progressive signal, S-video uses an interlaced signal just like the standard composite RCA cable. If it's attempting to export a progressive signal, you'll probably only recieve every other frame, so it'll only run at 30fps instead of the proper 60. Or, it'll wind up looking no different from an interlaced signal.

I'll also throw into the mix that a progressive signal taxes the system much more than an interlaced one. In order to export sixty full frames per second, they have to make sacrifices in performance and/or graphics in order to do it. This is precisely why GT4 doesn't support progressive, because the game wouldn't look near as good as it does now.

You seem to be misinformed. Some time ago PD released info about the fact that GT4 would indeed support progressive scan and Dolby Digital/DTS. Some of the Forum goeroes can probably enlighten you more on this.

 

[kinigitt]

You seem to be misinformed. Some time ago PD released info about the fact that GT4 would indeed support progressive scan and Dolby Digital/DTS. Some of the Forum goeroes can probably enlighten you more on this.

They can't support dolby digital within gameplay. Sorry bud. PS2 is incapable of supporting digital outside of cutscenes. They do, however support Dolby Pro Logic II, a decent alternative to true digital sound. The channel separation is nowhere near as good, but it can simulate surround sound.

They also dropped progressive scan, because they had to sacrifice too much for it.

Even without progressive scan, it's still a much better looking game.

 

[spawn9999999]

OH and your lap times. Uncomparible. Why?
GT3 features the old set-up of Laguna Seca. How can you tell? B/c the big way to gain time over Forza is that hill and turn after it. The hill part is basically a straighline through the turns, and the turn afterwards you just let off the gas, or gas it.

Forza's featuring of the NEW Laguna Seca is different and harder. The hill part is not straight, so the S-turn acts more like a S-turn. Next turn is wider out, and requires braking of any car.

Laguna Seca in GT3 is not different than in Forza. The ownership of the track changed, but the track was never remodelled. The last remodel was in 1994-1995. The lap times are definetly comparable.

 

[McLaren]

The S-Turn in GT3 is nowhere like one. IT is one, but you can easily go trough it on a straightline.

You can't do it the same way in Forza.

 

[spawn9999999]

Ok, then they are modelled differently. But there was no remodel. The same track is in each game, just modelled differently.