PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4

[dice1998]

It is worse in performance, it has got a better GPU and more RAM though.

So, RAM and GPU does not equal better performance versus the PS3 and Xbox 360 right? Why does the PS4 need more RAM? Why not just use 128MB of GDDR5 as well as a rehashed RSX?

Thanks for proving my point.

Okay, you don't like clicking links. Fun!

Which is in said link I provided along with this tidbit:

We find that the Wii U is drawing around 32 watts of power during gameplay and despite running our entire library of software, we only ever saw an occasional spike just north of 33w. The new PS3 uses 118 per cent more juice under load, while our 2010 Xbox 360S was even less efficient, requiring 139 per cent more power for gameplay. We understand that Microsoft has revised the design of its console since it first launched, but the main CPU/GPU combo processor still uses the same 45nm process, so we don't expect to see any major game-changing efficiency gains. All consoles show a drop in power-draw when engaged in media playback (we tested an HD episode of Dexter streamed via Netflix), lower even than running the front-end menus of each device.

You have to remember I'm talking about PS4 reaching the same power consumption as Wii U is currently.

If the WII U other game console that's currently on the market, which is more powerful than current generation consoles, but slightly less powerful than the upcoming two consoles, can be designed around one small exhaust fan and a passive heatsink, why can't a PS4 Slim, when it hits the pipeline, as well as an Xbox One Slim be able to do the same thing, albeit probably a slightly larger case compared to the WII U other game console currently on the market?


By larger case, I mean a larger case to incorporate a larger heatsink assembly.

Yes, either that or a lighter PS4 if they don't to make it any smaller and just use a cheaper cooling system.

So you're telling me that the launch PS4 will already be an outdated version of PS4 before it launched due to this PS4 Slim ot PS4 Superlegerra being launched next year?

I thought you said the following first or am I being mistaken:

Oh you're right! My apologies.

fanless heatsink

I hope you could read that.

Keeping up with Moore's law will be really hard now, so much money is needed in R&D. You are expecting Sony to be able to have access to technlogy which is over a decade a way to get to Wii U's level of power consumption in time for the Slim within next couple of years to have a passive cooled system?

"Jaguar" Accelerated Processing Units are ultra-low power chips aimed at tablets, netbooks and ultra-thin notebooks. Released in May 2013 as successors to Bobcat-based APUs, Jaguar processors offer increased CPU and GPU performance, and/or lower power consumption.

Because anything about power draw for the Jaguar within the PS4 would be speculation, I did the next best thing. I google'd.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review

Although these aren't 8 core, 1.6ghz Jaguar APU's that are in the Xbox One and PS4, but they are Jaguar APU's thus it has to be a ballpark representation methinks. Maybe it's not. Take it for what it is:

So, speculating that TDP will be ballpark 25W and the WII U TDP is 32 and my assumption is that actual power draw will possibly be in the high 30's (this is on the launch version, not considering the possible refresh/die shrink the PS4 slim will bring), well, what did you say?

Oh, right!

which is over a decade a way to get to Wii U's level of power consumption in time for the Slim within next couple of years to have a passive cooled system

A decade, huh?

Note: Although the WII U uses a passive heatsink with an exhaust fan (which some people might call an active heatsink), it's also still prone to overheating issues. Something which refinery could/might possibly fix.

And then? You really want to say you meant a passive cooler for the APU in a PS4 with case fans?...
But you see how that reduces pretty much everything to absurdity?

You're right, by fanless heatsink/passive heatsink assembly, I meant

a complete passive system

absurdity ad infinitum

Oh and once again, PS4 Slim.


Note: This is not a post where I want people, including yourself to agree with it. This is also not a post where I think I want people, including yourself to agree with it.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So, RAM and GPU does not equal better performance versus the PS3 and Xbox 360 right? Why does the PS4 need more RAM? Why not just use 128MB of GDDR5 as well as a rehashed RSX?

Well when I say something CPU and you ask to clarify what I mean by that, I talk exactly about that. If you think GPU and RAM is what CPU performance is then prepare to be shocked.

Okay, you don't like clicking links. Fun!

Again this proves my point, is the power consumption of Wii U not around half of PS3 Super Slim. Even article mentions about raw CPU performance is an issue.

If the WII U other game console that's currently on the market, which is more powerful than current generation consoles, but slightly less powerful than the upcoming two consoles, can be designed around one small exhaust fan and a passive heatsink, why can't a PS4 Slim, when it hits the pipeline, as well as an Xbox One Slim be able to do the same thing, albeit probably a slightly larger case compared to the WII U other game console currently on the market?


By larger case, I mean a larger case to incorporate a larger heatsink assembly.

It will take a long while for PS4 to get to power consumption of Wii U level for starters. If you are talking about first Slim model then it is very unlikely if not impossible. It won't be much of a Slim console if it is larger than original console or weights more than it.

So you're telling me that the launch PS4 will already be an outdated version of PS4 before it launched due to this PS4 Slim ot PS4 Superlegerra being launched next year?

Something releasing potentially releasing in 2014, is unlikely to be able to be brought forward a year to release before launch consoles so launch consoles are already outdated. If I buy something now which is latest model, it is not already out of date if something yet to be announced, released or made is not out. Quite simple really.

Oh you're right! My apologies.




I hope you could read that.

No fans used will mean Wii U solution is not possible, if you are not allowed a fan to help with cooling of heatsink.

"Jaguar" Accelerated Processing Units are ultra-low power chips aimed at tablets, netbooks and ultra-thin notebooks. Released in May 2013 as successors to Bobcat-based APUs, Jaguar processors offer increased CPU and GPU performance, and/or lower power consumption.

Because anything about power draw for the Jaguar within the PS4 would be speculation, I did the next best thing. I google'd.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review

Although these aren't 8 core, 1.6ghz Jaguar APU's that are in the Xbox One and PS4, but they are Jaguar APU's thus it has to be a ballpark representation methinks. Maybe it's not. Take it for what it is:

So, speculating that TDP will be ballpark 25W and the WII U TDP is 32 and my assumption is that actual power draw will possibly be in the high 30's (this is on the launch version, not considering the possible refresh/die shrink the PS4 slim will bring), well, what did you say?

Oh, right!

So you think launch PS4 has some kind of super technology already in it. I am sure people like Intel and Nvidia will be scared of this combo. I will let you figure this one out, then maybe you will realise how ludicrous your claims are.

A decade, huh?

Note: Although the WII U uses a passive heatsink with an exhaust fan (which some people might call an active heatsink), it's also still prone to overheating issues. Something which refinery could/might possibly fix.

Yep a decade.

Then the Wii U is insane in the membrane for having one small exhaust fan.



Note: This is not a post where I want people, including yourself to agree with it. This is also not a post where I think I want people, including yourself to agree with it.

No it is not, it is adequate enough given its power consumption.

 

[dice1998]

Well when I say something CPU and you ask to clarify what I mean by that, I talk exactly about that. If you think GPU and RAM is what CPU performance is then prepare to be shocked.

Yeah, I didn't notice you said CPU, that's my bad.

Again this proves my point, is the power consumption of Wii U not around half of PS3 Super Slim. Even article mentions about raw CPU performance is an issue.

Once again, didn't notice you said half the power draw of the PS4 Super slim. My bad.

It will take a long while for PS4 to get to power consumption of Wii U level for starters. If you are talking about first Slim model then it is very unlikely if not impossible. It won't be much of a Slim console if it is larger than original console or weights more than it.

Until I see official figures for the PS4, i'll withold speculation.

Something releasing potentially releasing in 2014

Stop

is unlikely to be able to be brought forward a year to release before launch consoles so launch consoles are already outdated.

Stahp

If I buy something now which is latest model, it is not already out of date if something yet to be announced, released or made is not out. Quite simple really.

So a PS4 Slim won't be released in 2014? Better yet, why would Sony already be scheduling release dates for the PS4 Slim when the launch console isn't even out yet. Unless you're seeing this from a roadmap standpoint. In which case, anything 2014/15 sounds....off to me.

The PS2 was launched in 2001. The PS4 Slimline wasn't released until 2004.
The PS3 was launched November 2006, The PS3 slim didn't launch until September 2009.

I'd say 2016 is the earliest for a PS4 Slim.

No fans used will mean Wii U solution is not possible, if you are not allowed a fan to help with cooling of heatsink.

Never said no fans used. Case fans? Fanless Heatsink Assembly, after all.

So you think launch PS4 has some kind of super technology already in it.

No, I don't. I never did.

"Jaguar" Accelerated Processing Units are ultra-low power chips aimed at tablets, netbooks and ultra-thin notebooks. Released in May 2013 as successors to Bobcat-based APUs, Jaguar processors offer increased CPU and GPU performance, and/or lower power consumption.

Followed by power consumption chart.

You do realize Jaguar in the PS4 has 8 cores, right? It also has 8GB GDDR5. It also speculated to be 1.6ghz right?

Speculated.

Yep a decade.

Power draws of current jaguar APU's show something different. Though, it's still speculatoriness.


All-in-all my skimming through posts have thwarted my intention again! Apologies all around!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yeah, I didn't notice you said CPU, that's my bad.




Once again, didn't notice you said half the power draw of the PS4 Super slim. My bad.

OK and there is a small typo there, you should say PS3, not PS4 Super Slim

Until I see official figures for the PS4, i'll withold speculation.

They are on opposite ends of scale and there is quite a lot of information out to speculate. It will be easier to make a better educated guess though.

Stop




Stahp




So a PS4 Slim won't be released in 2014? Better yet, why would Sony already be scheduling release dates for the PS4 Slim when the launch console isn't even out yet. Unless you're seeing this from a roadmap standpoint. In which case, anything 2014/15 sounds....off to me.

It might be released in 2014. 20nm should be possible then, but it may happen early 2015 instead.

Never said no fans used. Case fans? Fanless Heatsink Assembly, after all.

It could be also argued a lot of heatsinks with fans are really fanless heatsink assemblies.

No, I don't. I never did.

"Jaguar" Accelerated Processing Units are ultra-low power chips aimed at tablets, netbooks and ultra-thin notebooks. Released in May 2013 as successors to Bobcat-based APUs, Jaguar processors offer increased CPU and GPU performance, and/or lower power consumption.

Followed by power consumption chart.

You do realize Jaguar in the PS4 has 8 cores, right? It also has 8GB GDDR5. It also speculated to be 1.6ghz right?

Speculated.

It is the impression you are giving off. It is strange though that you think PS4 will take less power than Wii U but will have to wait for a slim model to get similar in size and utilize same cooling design.

The ram alone might take more power than Wii U. The main thing you missed though is GPU on PS4 APU is considerably more powerful than the ones for low powered PCs. A similar powered GPU on PC takes around 100W gaming on same 28nm node as PS4 and similar architecture.

Power draws of current jaguar APU's show something different. Though, it's still speculatoriness.


All-in-all my skimming through posts have thwarted my intention again! Apologies all around!

It is all good speculating but missing out very important details makes a huge difference in potential accuracy.

 

[dice1998]

OK and there is a small typo there, you should say PS3, not PS4 Super Slim

Yeah

It might be released in 2014. 20nm should be possible then, but it may happen early 2015 instead.

I edited that part to include a little more info of previous sony consoles.



[/quote]It could be also argued a lot of heatsinks with fans are really fanless heatsink assemblies.[/quote]

I can't really name a fanless heatsink off the top of my head that has a fan included with it

It is the impression you are giving off. It is strange though that you think PS4 will take less power than Wii U but will have to wait for a slim model to get similar in size and utilize same cooling design.

I don't mean to give off the wrong impression. I also never really meant it to seem like the PS4 would have a lower TDP than a Wii U

The ram alone might take more power than Wii U. The main thing you missed though is GPU on PS4 APU is considerably more powerful than the ones for low powered PCs. A similar powered GPU on PC takes around 100W gaming on same 28nm node as PS4 and similar architecture.

That's true, I never took into consideration the amount of heat generated by the RAM and the extra GPU juice that this PS4 jaguar might be packing

It is all good speculating but missing out very important details makes a huge difference in potential accuracy.

Yeah, I once again made a fool of myself and thus gave myself a headache.

Sorry guys! Carry on.

 

[dr_slump]

Although these aren't 8 core, 1.6ghz Jaguar APU's that are in the Xbox One and PS4, but they are Jaguar APU's thus it has to be a ballpark representation methinks. Maybe it's not. Take it for what it is:

I wouldn't say an APU with half the CPU cores and about 1/9 of the GPU cores plus at lower clock (gpu-wise) is really comparable.

So, speculating that TDP will be ballpark 25W and the WII U TDP is 32 and my assumption is that actual power draw will possibly be in the high 30's (this is on the launch version, not considering the possible refresh/die shrink the PS4 slim will bring), well, what did you say?

Based on that chart you posted it's actually quite ridiculous to say that. You know that the GPU part takes quite a big margin more power than the CPU part? 7850s and 70s get quite hot, plus a cpu... good luck.

Oh, right!

No

A decade, huh?

About

You're right, by fanless heatsink/passive heatsink assembly, I meant



absurdity ad infinitum

You probably don't even see the pointlessness of talking about passive heatsink cooling solutions in such a tiny console, where the fan(s) would be pretty much necessarily blowing on it anyways, if you don't even mean a completely passively cooled system.

 

[dr_slump]

It might be released in 2014. 20nm should be possible then, but it may happen early 2015 instead.

Best thread ever about nm




EDIT: Oops! Double post... :/

 

[Samus]

PS4 Slim within a year? Yeah, no.

 

[Ddrizle]

Digital Foundry PS4 RAM report outed as false by PS4 Dev & Neogaf.

Update: Brian Provinciano, head of confirmed PlayStation 4 developer Vblank Entertainment, has called the Digital Foundry rumors “absolutely false.”

“It’s absolutely false,” he said in response to the rumors. “Absolutely ridiculous.”

Provinciano went up with an editorial on the drama, in which he provides insight. He wouldn’t confirm how much memory is used, however.

Meanwhile, over on NeoGAF, known insider Thuway hinted PlayStation 4 will reserve six gigabytes of RAM for games and two for the operating system (Update within update: “There are games in development that are using 6 GB of RAM.&#8221 BruceLeeRoy, another known insider, and forum admin Kagari corroborated Thuway’s report.

Obviously, nothing’s confirmed until Sony says something themselves. But considering they didn’t confirm numbers to Digital Foundry, I wouldn’t expect that at this point.

The final word is with Sony.....whenever/if they choose to speak on it.

 

[dr_slump]

Nowadays everybody is an insider or trustworthy source.

 

[iMikeTheKing]

I don't know what to believe. ON the IGN article about the same story they updated this:

Update: Sony has clarified PS4's RAM situation, providing the following statement to Digital Foundry:

"We would like to clear up a misunderstanding regarding our "direct" and "flexible" memory systems. The article states that "flexible" memory is borrowed from the OS, and must be returned when requested - that's not actually the case.

The actual true distinction is that:

"Direct Memory" is memory allocated under the traditional video game model, so the game controls all aspects of its allocation
"Flexible Memory" is memory managed by the PS4 OS on the game's behalf, and allows games to use some very nice FreeBSD virtual memory functionality. However this memory is 100 per cent the game's memory, and is never used by the OS, and as it is the game's memory it should be easy for every developer to use it.
We have no comment to make on the amount of memory reserved by the system or what it is used for."

Digital Foundry's sources also clarify that the "flexible memory" is 512MB rather than 1GB, so developers are "guaranteed 4.5GB for development and a further 512MB from the flexible pool."

 

[XtremeBadass]

 

[stiggygonzalez]

interesting video.
At lest there is clarification on a few things I was unsure about.
Good post.

 

[Samus]

They forgot one important question. Does it blend.

 

[Eks]

Good luck finding a blender to stick that in.

 

[dice1998]

Microwave it instead 👍

 

[iMikeTheKing]

PlayStation 4 Will Support Party Chat And 2,000 Friends

 

[Ranman20]

2,000 friends dang.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Is party chat better than using Skype?

 

[Dean]

2000 friends? Wow, that's really an extend...

 

[XtremeBadass]

2000 friends? Wow, that's really an extend...

Is 20x more than PS3. This time PSN will be more social than ever.

 

[Ranman20]

Is 20x more than PS3. This time PSN will be more social than ever.

I think he is being sarcastic.

 

[Kent]

I know Im behind on info but...
From 54 seconds to 57 seconds that video looked a lot like Planet Side 2... Will planet side 2 be on the PS4?

Researching answered the question, which btw, is a Yes!
Super cool, can't wait to see what PS2 will be like with a dual joystick setup and the PS4's power.

 

[Dean]

I think he is being sarcastic.

No I'm not being sarcastic . It's so massive an extend I'm worried that PlayStation Network is turning into the Facebook.

 

[m8h3r]

2,000 friends...... That's, a lot. I did for a long time get stuck at 99 friends, but when I actually deleted all the people I didn't speak to, didn't play with and didn't actually have any sort of history except a funny kill cam in CoD or something I was only on like 60-70 friends. If that. I'd like to see someone fill that with people they actually talk to.

 

[Ranman20]

No I'm not being sarcastic . It's so massive an extend I'm worried that PlayStation Network is turning into the Facebook.

I agree with you. Who has that many friends anyway?

 

[phillgt2002]

No I'm not being sarcastic . It's so massive an extend I'm worried that PlayStation Network is turning into the Facebook.

Be ready for the status updates.

 

[RACECAR]

PlayStation 4 Will Support Party Chat And 2,000 Friends

Wow, seriously?


I don't think I'll ever have that many friends, but that'll definitely keep me from having to take one name off the list just to add another 👍

 

[iMikeTheKing]

I find it way too much. All people are going to do is add random people so they can have 1,000 "friends" online at one time. Or famous Youtubers will have 1,000+ friend requests pending. Block Button FTW!

My Friends list would max out at around 200. From all the clans and real life friends that I have ignored or only talk to in person, I would be around 160.

 

[Youngun]

If i went through, Family+School+College+Football+Gym+Social acquaintances wouldn't come close to 2000. Adding together every person in my area I've met wouldn't be 2000.