PlayStation 5 Rumors Latest: Console Reveal Within the Next Six Weeks

Discussion in 'Console & PC Gaming' started by GTPNewsWire, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    I get that, but it doesn't really answer my question. If anything, 1st party devs are even more well versed in this instance than third party devs. How is it any different to how games are developed now, and has it really changed anything significantly?
     
  2. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    @zzz_pt
    Here are the quotes & the source.
    https://www.mcvuk.com/business-news...studios-matt-booty-on-the-future-of-xbox/amp/
    Devs developing for an SSD instead of an HDD can change the level design for example. Before next gen all games were made with the slow HDD in mind and developers had to create small paths or elevator scenes to hide load times of the HDD. This will change with SSD on both consoles. Obviously PS5 has an advantage here with the much higher bandwith.

    Depending on how Microsoft is doing the cross gen games, the game could have a level design which has HDD in mind. This doesn't mean we won't see other benefits of an SSD, though. Load times and draw distances (depending on the GPU, too) can be vastly improved.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  3. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Are they?

    Seems to me to be the perfect candidate for outsourcing, effectively as a "port" - perhaps even as an asset flip in a different engine.

    It certainly wouldn't be the first time a big dev let others take care of making the game work on "lesser" consoles.
     
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  4. GaLbaNoryes

    GaLbaNoryes

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    The game still has to be made with the base console in mind, even with other developers making the port.
     
  5. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    There aren't that many porting studios left. And the game design still has to accommodate HDD. A SSD game is impossible to be played on HDD, such as Star Citizen.
     
  6. zzz_pt

    zzz_pt

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    Exactly my point. And that's why it looks the faster SSD on the PS5 will allow for new game design liberties to be pushed further than ever before (and maybe pushed further than what we'll see on the XBSX).

    Only time will tell. I'm way more curious to see new ways of designing worlds and how we can e exprience games than I am in more performance (frames per second, resolution or faster load times).
     
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  7. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    It's going to be absolutely game changing. We could have cities where each room in each building can be accessible and somewhat unique looking.
     
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  8. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    That's cool. I like French fries as well.


    :lol: Nah, seriously, I have no idea what you posted, but it is cool many of the members here, do take time to explain the technobabble. :tup:
     
  9. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The "game" aspects of any game likely to emerge in the next few years on any platform will not at all have any limitation in respect of hardware, no. What everyone seems to be talking about is visual density.

    Design your asset scheme around that and the problem goes away.

    Yes, the impact will be different - that's what you're paying the price for a new console for. And anyone seeing the difference between their pauper spec game and what it could do if unleashed on the newer hardware, will likely find a way to that newer hardware eventually. At least, statistically speaking.

    Maybe a simple bandwidth test in a menu somewhere is enough - then you can retrofit an SSD to your old console to eke it out.

    What is this, fashion? Any studio can port a game! They still get paid :)

    And, as above, you turn the asset detail and density right down and load more into RAM "permanently" and make it like every other "streaming" space game (e.g. Elite - no, the 1984 original).

    Will the "gameplay" experience be hamstrung by the hardware limitation? The potential is there, but not with good design (which granted is a big ask of any short-sighted developer or "consumer" alike).

    All the more reason to use a good developer, not just any pre-determined "port-only grade" backstreet hacks.
     
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  10. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    No its game dev. Something that requires a competent pipeline and experience to be done successfully, especially in down porting cases. The industry just doesn't work the way you think it does.

    Asset detail, LOD is only going to help so much. It's not going to compensate for games that need a whole order of magnitude of more data stream (hence being SSD exclusive) and games that have their design built around that.

    If I want to make a city with every building and room populated, with no SSD then I either need loading screens for each chunk, a lot of copy and paste or small moving speed.

    SSD is what will allow for more innovative and creative design rather than the limitations of HDD.
     
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  11. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Any studio can port a game. Regardless of what you think I think I know, if you can't demonstrate otherwise, there is little point in posturing.

    Anything that reduces the data streaming load will help. That means fewer numbers per object, and / or fewer objects. How that is achieved is a matter of in depth systems design according to the hardware in question, and the core of any good port.

    We've had streaming engines for pretty much as long as we've had game engines, so the order of magnitude change will be felt hardest in the content production side of things. They will have a hard time making enough meaningful content to justify the extra bandwidth, at first.

    If gameplay is truly to be held as some kind of cardinal goal (lol) in the transition, then devs will find a way to make the visuals play second fiddle accordingly.
     
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  12. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    Repeating the same line does not make it any more true lol
    It's hilarious that you throw out a wildly incorrect statement and then ask me for evidence to refute yet can't provide a single shred of evidence for your own claim.

    It's a meaningless statement to anyone who knows about the game industry. Studios that are fully into game dev do not focus on porting third party games. There are studios renowned to being port houses, viable solutions to porting third party games, and who rarely if ever develop their own game. This has been a thing since the SNES days. Here are some well known port houses:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixxes_Software
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_Button_(company)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluepoint_Games
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saber_Interactive
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/QLOC
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlitWorks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Galaxy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tose_(company)#Nintendo_3DS

    Reduced textures reduce file size is on the order of 0-0.5. SSD from HDD is 100 times quicker, an order of 2. Your vague statements are completely irrelevant to the actual numbers.

    We've never had an order of magnitude jump data streaming on this level in gaming consoles ever (even PC as PC games are made for the lowest spec as well).
     
  13. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    Oh, so it’s not just me - he’s just a rude ass no matter who he’s discussing with.
     
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  14. Tornado

    Tornado

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    So it's your Rosetta Stone then.
     
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  15. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    We have had step changes in content storage and access speeds in the past. The beginning of the CD era springs to mind, with its glorious full screen art, FMVs and actual recorded sound samples. Good times. Once they got to grips with it all, I mean - there was plenty of meaningless "bloat" at first.


    Besides, you offer no "proof" that a studio who doesn't just do ports can't also do ports. I admit I have very little experience of programming and asset production, although I am keenly interested in systems and algorithms in general. But it's pretty clear to me that if you can program and make art, you can port a game, regardless of whether you believe it to be "beneath" you in some way.

    And the status quo of fashionable porting houses is irrelevant anyway, there are always new studios wanting to cut their teeth and get established, and porting is one of the classic routes into the "big time" - if that's what you want to do.


    The fact of the matter, as it stands, is that the games will have to be made to run on different hardware. But there's no limitation as to how that is approached. There is nothing that states that first party devs have to make all versions of a game for all hardware targets. There is nothing that states MS can't facilitate a new industry of porting using its own SDKs to bridge the gap it has deliberately created. There is nothing that states the games have to be functionally the same, in terms of features, never mind overall appearance - there is much (much!!) precedence for this, particularly if you look far enough back in the annals of porting yore when hardware was much more differentiated than it is today. "Step change" or no.
     
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  16. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    I think SSD can change how games are designed, because of the insane speed difference between an HDD & SSD. For example Horizon Zero Dawn doesn't have an ability to fly, because the HDD was the bottleneck there.

    Many Games also had tunnels, slow walking scenes and so on, since they needed to make sure the data can be streamed.

    But i agree with you that the the production side can't be ignored. We won't see 100x more diverse worlds, because the SSD is about 100x faster. Budgets can't be ignored in this discussion.

    So, developer will have an bottleneck less to worry about with SSD. But I don't think every game will change the gameplay a lot. Some games probably want those slow walking tunnel scenes to increase the excitement when finally uncover an secret city in uncharted.
     
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  17. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Indeed.

    All I will say further is that we had flying games before SSDs. If your game must contain flying, you find the technical workaround to prevent it looking bad or at least from having an obvious gameplay impact.

    And in any case, what really is "flying" except an issue of scale as it pertains to content detail and quantity? The same problem exists at other scales, so the challenge, really, is to find a solution that works over a large range of scales. Or perhaps multiple solutions for different occasions
     
  18. GT6mebe

    GT6mebe

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    A step change is not the same as an order of magnitude change. It's again simple maths. Look at the transfer speed differences.

    My proof is the fact that for over 30 years porting studios have existed that exclusively handle business by making ports. Most dev studios do no port third party or even other first party games. This is 30 years of evidence.

    Meanwhile you have provided absolutely nothing on your assertion that any studio will port games from others.

    You are completely wrong. These are not new studios, most of them are 10+ years old and some are even 20 years old.

    I'm sorry but you are simply throwing statements hoping that they stick or are accurate to game development. If my actual game design (AI models, point of view, character speed, physics) requires a certain data transfer then one has to fundamentally change the gameplay systems to work on slower hardware. These aren't just graphical parameters. If it's multiplayer how can I have two agents that are running the game at different speeds? If its singleplayer how much of my vision is still withheld by making such fundamental game changes, is it still even the same game with the same feel?

    Different hardware layouts can be worked around via software abstractions. Actual physical limits cannot be worked around with software, so no.



    We can already see a massive difference in player speed and level sizes from PS4 gen assets. Asset fidelity will only increase next gen. The only solution is to design your game completely around the SSD if you want no compromise. Anything else is compromised.
     
  19. rhalgr

    rhalgr

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    Are we now talking about the jump from HDD to SSD or SSD vs SSD?

    Because the latter can be overcome with smart level design (using the same assets) or lowering the asset quality at first. Would result in more pop in.

    With these techniques bandwidth can be saved, because you can either fill RAM with more data (because the quality is lower) or don't need as much bandwith, because the assets (the same tree used several times for example) will remain in RAM and don't need to be pulled from SSD again.

    Yes, there are drawbacks, but not from an gameplay perspective. By the way, for AI, physics, ... an CPU&GPU still matters more and any data you can throw at the CPU&GPU needs to be dealt with.

    Finding an workaround only gets you so far, when the jump between HDD and SSD is so significant these days.

    As you said flying already exists in games, but these games sacrifice details at the ground and don't have an very high travel speed. Just like racing games don't have track/level detail as good as an top Shooter or RPG.

    At the end of the day it worked, just like slow transitions like elevator or loading screen worked. But developers had to put a lot of thought into designing levels. This is about to change with SSD and it'll open up new possibilities.

    Examples:
    - Going from space to an station on an planet without loading.
    - Flashbacks rendered in real time without loading, depending on your choices in an conversation
    - increased speed while maintaining good graphics
    - teleportation to an different area as an gameplay element.

    Some of the stuff could be done before in a way. Like the flashbacks for example, but you wouldn't be able to interact as an player.

    This is a new possibility just like teleportation. After all having an annoying 30 sec loading screen everytime you port to an different point is annoying. Even more so, if this is an fighting skill.

    Those possibilities sound interesting imo and i am excited, but obviously the rest of the hardware needs to be up to the task. But still having an SSD in there will help developer massively and consumers will benefit, too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020 at 1:29 PM
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  20. Jtheripper

    Jtheripper

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    I wonder what's the processing efficiency of the ps5 rdna2 cpu compared to the ps4 jaguar cpu.

    All saw is it's twice the clock and twice something else and claiming it's 4 times the processing.
    But isn't there design efficiency like for the gpu tf that makes it comparatively higher?

    Just doesn't seem all that much considering the jag cpu was really weak when ps4 came out.
    I'm thinking of physics which i guess run on the cpu, or will they be able to use the gpu for that?
    Physics are pretty intensive if you want no easily noticed restrictions it seems.
    I wish they added physics dedicated hardware too which could be 100 times more efficient maybe.
    Im sure the cpu will be used alot already for newgen.