Points system to be replaced?

[Nicksfix]

just 2 words :

total ignorance

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Lofasz, I'm fairly certain the FIA have seen This Is Spinal Tap. Besides, don't engines have to last for three races this year, or is that starting next season? If it's this year, going for hard burn one race and then blowing it in time for the next would be pretty pointless because you'd have to do two races with troubles ... even if you roast your engine, you still take the penalty for changing it, don't you?

the penalty would only consist of you taking a 10 places on the grid penalty. so you just have to you your engines to win you 5 races and then you can not worry about where you qualify cuz hey you already won the championship and your engines are blown up anyways so you cant race. the penaltys wont take away your first place wins and there for are pointless

 

[Lofasz]

Besides, don't engines have to last for three races this year, or is that starting next season?

I believe you are correct. I still think teams might go very strong on some weekends, but dial it back out of necessity on others. This will certainly change the strategy involved in F1 racing. Perhaps it will lead to more of a rotation of the front runners, weekend to weekend. That might not be a bad thing, but I've always enjoyed watching teams try to do their best every weekend. I don't like new rules/regs inhibiting teams from doing their best. I'd still rather they stick with the long running point system, but I'll gladly be suprised if this new system improves F1 racing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

just 2 words :

total ignorance

If that's aimed at me, then in my defence maybe you should consider that the sheer raft of rule changes has made it bloody difficult to tell up from down of late, especially when you're trying to do two-dozen applications for graduate programs on top of eight assignments of three thousand words and trying to comfort a friend who has just found out she cannot have children and half a dozen other things I'm trying to deal with. Facts happen to slip my mind, interpretations may vary, and your approach of being a general asshole towards it all really doesn't do wonders for my mood.

 

[Crashbroke23]

Has Bernie lost it? Yes he has, there are so many examples why the most consistent driver should be winner. Just look at last year, Lewis won one less race but finished one more race in the points. The only thing I would change is make more players get more points:
12-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, although i think 11 drivers getting points too much.

 

[Lofasz]

If that's aimed at me,

I truely believe his remarks were aimed at the main topic of the thread, and not your comments. I could be wrong.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I truely believe his remarks were aimed at the main topic of the thread, and not your comments. I could be wrong.

Well, its just that over he past two weeks or so, just about everything I've posted in this subforum has been wrong.

 

[Nicksfix]

If that's aimed at me, then in my defence maybe you should consider that the sheer raft of rule changes has made it bloody difficult to tell up from down of late, especially when you're trying to do two-dozen applications for graduate programs on top of eight assignments of three thousand words and trying to comfort a friend who has just found out she cannot have children and half a dozen other things I'm trying to deal with. Facts happen to slip my mind, interpretations may vary, and your approach of being a general asshole towards it all really doesn't do wonders for my mood.

you need to take a chill pill dude !!!!!
total ignorance was aimed at the rule change and not you,had it been directed towards you it would have been quoted. get it !!!!!


apology accepted by the way.

 

[VNAF Ace]

To race fans who want to enjoy a real open wheel racing World Driver Championship: I invite my fellow open wheel racing fans to watch the IndyCar Series. An IndyCar Series Champion must master oval/road/street racing. The IndyCar Series points system also strikes a nice balance between rewarding consistency and wins. The IndyCar Series championship has also been decided in the final race for the past 3 years.

 

[CAMikaze]

Confirmed on the official F1 site

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/3/9024.html

Goodbye Formula 1

I can only say 2 words on this bit of news...

got pepto?
​

 

[Blake]

I don’t see the big deal honestly. It only effects the few drivers who are genuinely in with a shot at the title. For everyone else it’s business as normal, and it should provide better racing for the win.

 

[VNAF Ace]

Blake, the problem is consistency is no longer rewarded. For example, what if a driver wins the title with 6 wins, but crashes out of every other race while the driver with 5 wins actually finishes every race? What if the teams purposely build engines designed to win 1 race, then fail the next race?

 

[Blake]

I understand that, and I know it’s not ideal but it’s definitely not going to stop me enjoying the sport.

Indeed, consistancy was rewarded too much under the last point system. I much prefer FOTA’s proposed point system, but a point system isn’t the be-all and end-all of the sport IMO.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

The point system wasn't perfect, but it could be fixed (per the FOTA's suggestion).

There's no fixing this mess now.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What if the teams purposely build engines designed to win 1 race, then fail the next race?

I'm pretty sure the FIA will pick up on that pretty quickly. I would assume teams have to submit engine specifications to the FIA, and because all the engines are built in such a way that they comply with the rules, anything anomalous would be picked up pretty quickly. Especially because every team that is supplying would be moderated by their customers; if McLaren start blowing engines just to win a race, but Brawn and Force India don't, it would stand out. The only team who could possibly get away with it is BMW because they only supply BMW-Sauber.

Besides, haven't the rules been amended so that engines now have to last three races, or is that next year? If you win race one, but blow your engine, you can either take the penalty for the next race and build an engine that you hope will not simply last two races, but give you a win on the second of those two, or switch every race and incur a penalty every race, which is going to attract attention of the unwanted kind. Because I'm pretty sure that even if you engine packs it in, changing it still gives you a penalty. The system becomes self-moderating because there's no way to exploit the "loophole" without drawing attention to oneself.

 

[Roo]

To race fans who want to enjoy a real open wheel racing World Driver Championship: I invite my fellow open wheel racing fans to watch the IndyCar Series.

Falls down on the bolded part. This year's Indycar Series has 17 races, 14 of which are in 1 country (the USA). 2 of the remaining 3 take place in Canada. So 16 out of 17 races take place in 1 continent. That's not a World Championship.

By comparison, F1 also has 17 races; however, the most a single country has is 2. The most a single continent has is 8 (Europe) followed by 7 (Asia), and 1 each for Australasia and South America.

I keep track of Indycar through race reports, but I can't watch it, as I don't receive the channel the races are shown on.

The IndyCar Series championship has also been decided in the final race for the past 3 years.

So has F1.

Besides, haven't the rules been amended so that engines now have to last three races, or is that next year?

I believe - correct me if I'm wrong - the teams have 8 engines to race with all season this year. Thus 1 has to do 3 races, and the remaining 7 only 2.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I believe - correct me if I'm wrong - the teams have 8 engines to race with all season this year. Thus 1 has to do 3 races, and the remaining 7 only 2.

I couldn't be sure if you're right or not, but it sounds like the kind of thing the FIA might do as a transition to a time when all engines have to last three races.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Lofasz, I'm fairly certain the FIA have seen This Is Spinal Tap. Besides, don't engines have to last for three races this year, or is that starting next season? If it's this year, going for hard burn one race and then blowing it in time for the next would be pretty pointless because you'd have to do two races with troubles ... even if you roast your engine, you still take the penalty for changing it, don't you?

Engines do not have to last three races. Your just limited to eight engines in total.

 

[Famine]

Thinking about it a bit more, how is this scenario any different to the 1988 season? Then, Prost scored 105 points to Senna's 94, but because only the best 11 scores counted, Senna won the championship (90 points vs 87). Basically, the similarity is that whilst one driver got more points, the other won because of the rules at the time. (Incidentally, Senna scored 8 wins to Prost's 7, so would've won the title under this year's most-wins regulations too.)

Yes, that was a stupid system also and, correctly, was done away with. Introducing a new stupid system isn't better justified by older ones being just as retarded.


I've been analysing old seasons and applying different points/medals/whatever systems to them. I've found that if the stated aim is to make seasons longer and more exciting, 9 times in the last 19 years the worst way of doing this is giving the title to the driver with the most wins. The best way is points to 8th - but most of the time the two points systems (10 for a win, points to 8th; 10 for a win, points to 6th) have no effect on season length with relation to each other - though they do swap a couple of titles over (giving one to Hill from Schumacher, and one to Schumacher from Villeneuve - which would amusingly rectify two of the greatest injustices in recent F1 memory)


I had to stop at 1990 because I was getting confused with 8 different systems (10 for a win, points to 8th; 10 for a win, points to 6th; 9 for a win, points to 6th; Most wins; Each of the above again but for just the 11 best finishes). Nevertheless, I've got a big enough sample (about 1 in 3 seasons of F1 since its inception) and a big enough result (about half the time, most wins shortens the season) to show Bernie's justification is wrong.

 

[Pupik]

Time to bring on the asterisks...although methinks that Bernie was about 20 years too late with the idea.

1958: Actual champion: Mike Hawthorn | Most wins champion: Stirling Moss
1964: Actual champion: John Surtees | Most wins champion: Jim Clark
1967: Actual champion: Denny Hulme | Most wins champion: Jim Clark
1977: Actual champion: Niki Lauda | Most wins champion: Mario Andretti
1979: Actual champion: Jody Scheckter | Most wins champion: Alan Jones
1981: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet | Most wins champion: Alain Prost
1982: Actual champion: Keke Rosberg | Most wins champion: Didier Pironi
1983: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet | Most wins champion: Alain Prost
1984: Actual champion: Niki Lauda | Most wins champion: Alain Prost
1986: Actual champion: Alain Prost | Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell
1987: Actual champion: Nelson Piquet | Most wins champion: Nigel Mansell
1989: Actual champion: Alain Prost | Most wins champion: Ayrton Senna
2008: Actual champion: Lewis Hamilton | Most wins champion: Felipe Massa

Mind you, the split-by-points systems were introduced even at the beginning (1950) to prevent drivers from cruising to a championship: 1964 would have went to Graham Hill, but he had to discard a 5th place finish, even though he was more consistent than John Surtees, who pipped him by one point. Of course, Lorenzo Bandini helped out a little. And who ever worked on Jim Clark's engine.

1988 should have been shared by Senna and Prost; one was more consistent, the other was faster but more fragile. Prost had to discard second place finishes, when the title was decided by best 11 out of 16 finishes. Senna "retired" from one more event, although to be fair, he was disqualified from the Brazilian GP for starting in the spare car, not for technical nor sporting infractions. It's a wash...Prost wins three more titles, loses two in '89 and '86 due to most-wins.

The root of the problem was not giving enough points between winning and 2nd place; a two-point spread is presently not enough, but it keeps the title chase down to the wire (as long as one driver is not dominating).

Again, what do you want Bernie? TV viewers watching every race, with fans biting nails 10 minutes after the last race of the season, or a decisive champ, regardless of when the title's clinched? Make a decision and get back to us...

 

[Tired Tyres]

I notice that triple world champion and one of the greats of the sport Nelson Piquet would not have won a single world championship under this system.

It's not the case every time but I find that drivers that win the title with less wins tend to do it with less of a car than a driver with the most wins. That makes winning the title with less wins more worthy since you've had to work harder.

As for 2008, after Massa's incorrect penalty in Valencia and the travesty of Spa, the world championship would never be settled because it would spend the rest of time in the law courts.

 

[VNAF Ace]

To Roo:

The IndyCar Series may only race on 2 continents (North America and Asia), but it features some of the best open wheel drivers in the world. Also keep in mind that IndyCars (under different sanctioning bodies) have raced in Australia and Europe too in recent years. By the way, many of us F1 fans from North America could also argue that F1 is no longer a World Driver Championship since it no longer races in North America.

Since you can't watch IndyCar races on TV, I suggest taking advantage of free IndyCar Race Control to watch live online broadcasts of qualifying sessions and races.
http://indycarnation.indycar.com/racecontrol/

And finally, I know the F1 WDC has been decided in the final race in recent years. The chances of the championship battle going down to the final race when only wins are counted now are smaller. That's why many F1 fans, including myself, hate the new system. The FOTA proposal to revise the points system was a far better idea.

 

[Blake]

FYI the proposal was 12-9-7-5-4-3-2-1.

 

[Hun200kmh]

From all I read about this, I really get confused about what BE really wants. Because at this point it's almost futile to discuss the "fairness" of the results. Looking at past championships one can always argue if (as examples) Hawthorn desrerved his title more than Moss, if Piquet deserved his titles more than his contenders, Rosberd-Pironi, Mansell, Prost, Senna, etc).

Thre's no such thing as a "perfect" scoring system.

Now, what does BE really want? A system more pleasing to the viewer, therefore atracting more audiences? Does he think the "general audience" doesn't care about midfielders and only follows the leading teams and drivers? Maybe he is right, but even then, as Famine pointed out, this system would decide many championships earlier than it actually happened.

And, btw, what's better for an audience than having the championship decided at the last corner, of the last grand prix of the entire season????????? What drama could he want more (for the "drama-hungry general audience") than seeing one driver finishing the race as presumed champion, his family jumping in the box, only to a few seconds later hearing him cry and his family also reduced to tears? While the other driver and drivers family have the time to rejoice, because he pulled it off at the very end?

I fail to see why, considering what I presume BE wants, any change is needed.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I fail to see why, considering what I presume BE wants, any change is needed.

Bernie seems to have an obsession with coming first... no wonder Slavica dumped him.

Or more seriously, I think he's been messed up since his divorce. It's time for him to step down. Whatever he wants doesn't really seem like it's in the interest of the sport.

 

[ASH32]

You can't tell what Bernie's aim is because I am not sure he knows what it is himself. To me it seems Bernie is changing things, just to make it look like he knows what he is doing, to justify him keeping his job. Formula 1's audience is falling and by changing things Bernie might be able to fight off the pressure to stand down, even if he is just changing things without knowing what effect they might have. If by some miracle, this season is better than recent ones he can say he saved Formula 1 and if it's rubbish it will be everybody else's fault who wouldn't let him change everything he wanted to.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Thre's no such thing as a "perfect" scoring system.

I think there is, but it's not a case of there being one scoring system. Rather, there is a system that is appropriate to the sport in creating competitive racing, but the actual scoring system used may vary from year to year.

 

[Pepsi0]

Just to let you know my view on this: retarded, like many others have suggested.

It also adds more evidence to suggest that the FIA are biast to Ferrari, because I think they've released this change now because Mclaren's car isn't quit top notch, and they want Ferrari to be their little angel and win the championship.

 

[Metar]

Currently, you know, Brawn are the ones looking to run away with the championship.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Is every championship position after first sorted by points? Could that mean you're challenging for the title in the final race and then finish 5th overall?

Falls down on the bolded part. This year's Indycar Series has 17 races, 14 of which are in 1 country (the USA). 2 of the remaining 3 take place in Canada. So 16 out of 17 races take place in 1 continent. That's not a World Championship.

SuperBowl champions get a ring saying World Champions, but all the teams are from one country...