POLL: drafting in race YES or NO?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Silver_MK
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Drafting isn't something I'm a fan of, though for the fact it's a simulation game it's a must. But it should be toned down a bit, it's too much at a faster speed.
 
The drafting in the game is accurate. Drafting is something that takes place in every type of racing, and for it not to be in the game would be very unrealistic! It even takes place during long distance track and field races (yes I'm talking about people running) The lead runner in long distance races like the 1000 meter for example work much harder than the guys trailing behind them. Many of the runners strategize on what lap to take the lead in order to conserve energy. Now if you want to tell me that a basic principle of physics that takes place between small human bodies traveling at no faster than 10 mph is not realistic when it takes place and is even more exaggerated by bodies that are multiple times bigger than the human body, and traveling at +100 mph you would have to be an idiot. Not to mention that I have experienced drafting myself in my own car. I had a Mercedes Benz C220 that was drag limited to 130 mph (no governor) one night on a long stretch of empty highway I had a friend with an RX-7 that wanted to see how fast we could get my car to go if I drafted behind him. He got the RX-7 up to 145, and my Benz stayed right behind him. To the point that the Speedometer was buried (it stopped at 140mph). That is an additional 15mph than what the car could do by itself. So I can tell you that drafting does work in real life, and a racing game without it is very unrealistic.
 
deftonesmx17
No, it's not. Read my post a couple back.
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I don't know what game you're playing, but If I'm playing Nascar on Daytona, and I am drafting close behind a car all the way around the track, what you described in your post is what happens. That is how I win Daytona. I get behind and draft the first and place car, and work with that car until the last lap. Now like you said if I stay close behind that car, when I pull out to pass him I can't I have to slow down a bit so that I may get a bigger pull from his draft, and also slow him down because my airflow isn't helping push his car. From what I have noticed in the game what you describe happens as it is supposed to.
 
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Silver_MK
Corvette Vs Aston in Le Sarthe, this is real 👍👍👍!!! 2 laps without passing ... in GT5 passing 1/2 time every straight... :crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25U3WwnO28&t=8
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Well, I watched this, and nothing has shown me that the Aston even intended to pass.

They're in the 1st hour of the 24 Hours of LeMans, so there is nothing to be gained by making that pass. There's something to be gained by keeping behind the lead Corvette, though, and that's fuel efficiency, and not working his own motor as hard. When you DO see the Aston pop out from behind the Corvette, he does it out of the chicane where he had a better exit speed. He has to get out from behind the 'Vette so he doesn't run up the Corvette's tailpipe. Neither car is going much over 100 mph out of the chicane, and if the goal is to make a pass via drafting, they won't do it at 100 mph with almost a mile of straight road in front of them before the next chicane.

So, while I see that you could be right about the draft being too strong in the game, this video is not evidence in any way. Endurance racing is a different animal, especially in the first hour of the race. I think you're making the assumption that the Aston intends to pass, and it may not be the case at all. And if you listen to the commentary, the other team Aston had just had a mishap, and the ProDrive team would probably be very conservative with the other car so early in the race. No reason to get involved in a battle in the first hour.
 
IceGT
I don't know what game you're playing, but If I'm playing Nascar on Daytona, and I am drafting close behind a car all the way around the track, what you described in your post is what happens. That is how I win Daytona. I get behind and draft the first and place car, and work with that car until the last lap. Now like you said if I stay close behind that car, when I pull out to pass him I can't I have to slow down a bit so that I may get a bigger pull from his draft, and also slow him down because my airflow isn't helping push his car. From what I have noticed in the game what you describe happens as it is supposed to.
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Its hard to compare Daytona in this game to real life. Simply due to the fact that the NASCAR cars are unrestricted in GT5.

So, I'll ask this:
Ever seen a NASCAR car hit 230 at Indy in real life?

At the absolute most, I've seen 210, with draft. I find it amazing people sit here and say the drafting is this game is realistic. I hate to be this blunt, but I believe its either bias, or ignorance (lack of understanding would be a nicer term).
 
To all of you who think drafting is accurate in GT5,do you mind if PD gives us real drivers an option for the level of drafting? And then we can each choose what we want in our rooms.
 
I very much agree that there is ambiguity in the LeMans video, however

ElSecundo
When you DO see the Aston pop out from behind the Corvette, he does it out of the chicane where he had a better exit speed. He has to get out from behind the 'Vette so he doesn't run up the Corvette's tailpipe.
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Well, why not just lift? The straight is probably the best place to gain fuel economy from drafting since it's so fast and straight. The Aston could have just slowed down a bit more and tailed the Corvette. It's not like the C6 was swerving and tailing looked dangerous.

Neither car is going much over 100 mph out of the chicane, and if the goal is to make a pass via drafting, they won't do it at 100 mph with almost a mile of straight road in front of them before the next chicane.
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Why not? The Aston is the faster car acceleration wise, so it could pass early and possibly keep the lead despite the Vette drafting, and then take a defensive line in the corners. The Vette had worn tires too so if he tried to regain his position it could cost him longevity.

iRevelationz
I believe its either bias, or ignorance (lack of understanding would be a nicer term).
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No, ignorance is probably a better term. It means the same thing and it's easier to write. People just don't know what it means sometimes and get offended.
 
Since the rest of us are ignorant please enlighten us. Explain to me what it is that I don't understand. It's not exactly polite to call us ignorant and then not explain to us what it is we don't understand. Also it is not fair to tell me I can't compare to the real Daytona, and then make a comparison to the speed of real cars on the same subject. Obviously you do not believe that you are ignorant on this subject so you should be able to explain it so that we all know what you know. I'm not trying to be mean. If you truly know more about this subject than I do I am willing to listen. And just for your information the fastest recorded Nascar speed is 228mph by Rusty Wallace in 2004 in an unrestricted car.

iRevelationz
Its hard to compare Daytona in this game to real life. Simply due to the fact that the NASCAR cars are unrestricted in GT5.

So, I'll ask this:
Ever seen a NASCAR car hit 230 at Indy in real life?

At the absolute most, I've seen 210, with draft. I find it amazing people sit here and say the drafting is this game is realistic. I hate to be this blunt, but I believe its either bias, or ignorance (lack of understanding would be a nicer term).
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The slipstreaming in f1 2010 is pretty realistic. By comparing it with video evidence, it's clear to see how realistic it is.

The slipstreaming in gt5 just seems too unrealistic imo. I have never seen that kind of slipstream effect in real racing.
 
IceGT
I don't know what game you're playing, but If I'm playing Nascar on Daytona, and I am drafting close behind a car all the way around the track, what you described in your post is what happens. That is how I win Daytona. I get behind and draft the first and place car, and work with that car until the last lap. Now like you said if I stay close behind that car, when I pull out to pass him I can't I have to slow down a bit so that I may get a bigger pull from his draft, and also slow him down because my airflow isn't helping push his car. From what I have noticed in the game what you describe happens as it is supposed to.
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I'm inclined to ask what game you are playing? In GT5 on Daytona using NASCAR's I can easily slingshot past the car I was drafting on the backstrech while still on the backstretch (not going into the turn), which is not at all what I described or how it is in reality.

Care to explain the speeds you can reach as well? I posted an article from just a few days ago where they are talking about hardly touching 200mph, even while drafting at Daytona. So please, by all means tell me how it is accurate that I can be going 210mph, get into a draft and within a second or two be doing around 235mph, I'm all ears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Elliott#With_Melling_Racing
However, Elliott's most lasting accomplishment that year was setting two NASCAR qualifying records, which stand to this day. At Daytona, he set the NASCAR speed record with an average speed of 210.364 miles per hour (338.548 km/h). He broke his own record at Talladega with an average speed of 212.809 miles per hour (342.483 km/h); the previous record he set in 1986 was 209.383 miles per hour (336.969 km/h).

Even if this is because of non restritor plate useage, you can still drive them faster than real life. From article listed below.

In 2004, NASCAR driver Rusty Wallace tested a car at Talladega without a restrictor plate and reached a reported top speed of 228 miles per hour (367 kilometers per hour) on the backstretch and had a one-lap average speed of 221 mph.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-racing/nascar/nascar-basics/nascar-drafting.htm/printable
By staying close to the lead car the trailing car interrupts that low-pressure system and cuts down on its effects. The end result is about a 5-mile per hour (8-kilometer per hour) increase in speed for each car in the draft.

Case closed, move along.
 
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Exorcet
Well, why not just lift? The straight is probably the best place to gain fuel economy from drafting since it's so fast and straight. The Aston could have just slowed down a bit more and tailed the Corvette. It's not like the C6 was swerving and tailing looked dangerous.

Why not? The Aston is the faster car acceleration wise, so it could pass early and possibly keep the lead despite the Vette drafting, and then take a defensive line in the corners. The Vette had worn tires too so if he tried to regain his position it could cost him longevity.
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Because it's LeMans, and it's a 24 hour race. There is a tremendous amount of gamesmanship that goes on, and there is no reason -- none -- to take over that position from the Corvette. It is the first hour of a 24 hour race. You can't win it in the first hour, but you certainly can lose it with a bonehead move. Given that the other Aston needed to come in for a lengthy repair, there's no reason for the team to force their hand with the remaining car less than one hour into the race.

I'll be in the pits at LeMans this year in June, and with any luck, embedded with one of the American teams. I'll be happy to ask about it and report back. :)
 
deftonesmx17
By staying close to the lead car the trailing car interrupts that low-pressure system and cuts down on its effects. The end result is about a 5-mile per hour (8-kilometer per hour) increase in speed for each car in the draft.

Case closed, move along.
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Unfortunately, your reference actually opens the case wider. I just read the article, and like you say, it increases the speed of each car in the draft by 5 mph.

This is a 'steady state', with one car lined up behind the other car. What this means is that the second car is using much less power than the first car to go at a speed that is 5 mph faster than it could on its own, so the driver relaxes pressure on the gas pedal.

BUT, what happens when the driver decides to use full power?

If driver two is far enough behind driver one, driver two can get some serious acceleration going prior to pulling out into the wind again. With vintage NASCARs, that hole in the air behind car one was known to be a couple hundred yards. Sure, every car is different, but using that as a model, it would be possible to get quite a run on somebody.

So 5 mph is just the gain from sitting behind another car, it is not the maximum possible gain from drafting -- far from it.
 
ElSecundo
Unfortunately, your reference actually opens the case wider. I just read the article, and like you say, it increases the speed of each car in the draft by 5 mph.

This is a 'steady state', with one car lined up behind the other car. What this means is that the second car is using much less power than the first car to go at a speed that is 5 mph faster than it could on its own, so the driver relaxes pressure on the gas pedal.

BUT, what happens when the driver decides to use full power?

If driver two is far enough behind driver one, driver two can get some serious acceleration going prior to pulling out into the wind again. With vintage NASCARs, that hole in the air behind car one was known to be a couple hundred yards. Sure, every car is different, but using that as a model, it would be possible to get quite a run on somebody.

So 5 mph is just the gain from sitting behind another car, it is not the maximum possible gain from drafting -- far from it.
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Issue #1
See speed records above, which are lower than the speeds you can obtain in GT5 by default and by yourself (no drafting).

Issue #2
"Sling-shot" does not work on modern restrictor plate NASCARS the way it use to. The car does not have enough power to slingshot past the car it was drafting by itself on a straight and needs to be done with other cars. In GT5 you can sling-shot past the leading car by yourself, which is untrue to reality.


What it all boils down to is a pure mistake by PD. NASCAR racing at Daytona is restrictor plate racing. The fact that GT5 is a SIM and completely missed that is a glaring issue.
 
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IceGT
Since the rest of us are ignorant please enlighten us. Explain to me what it is that I don't understand. It's not exactly polite to call us ignorant and then not explain to us what it is we don't understand. Also it is not fair to tell me I can't compare to the real Daytona, and then make a comparison to the speed of real cars on the same subject. Obviously you do not believe that you are ignorant on this subject so you should be able to explain it so that we all know what you know. I'm not trying to be mean. If you truly know more about this subject than I do I am willing to listen. And just for your information the fastest recorded Nascar speed is 228mph by Rusty Wallace in 2004 in an unrestricted car.
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What you seemingly don't understand is how unrelaistic the draft is in GT5. NASCAR runs restrictor plates in real life at Daytona. Without draft, the cars seldom exceed 190 mph. With draft, they'd hit around the park of 195-198. With the 2 car lock we've seen with the COT, speeds could slighty exceed 200 mph. It all depends on the size of the plate NASCAR mandates. In GT5, there are no restrictor plates. Its not uncommon for a single car to hit 215 mph. With help, speeds around 240 mph can be seen. Explain what part of that is realistic. I, unfortunately, see no logic in that comparison. You want proof? This and my previous statement concerning Indy is all I need to give.

I'm well aware of Rusty's speed. But remember, that was by himself, at Talladega, in a TEST SESSION. That was just to see how fast they could really go if they turned them loose without plates. Obviously, that kind of speed isn't safe.

Its not the speed itself that is unrealistic. Its the speed when you get around other cars. Thats when things get ugly.
 
ElSecundo
Because it's LeMans, and it's a 24 hour race. There is a tremendous amount of gamesmanship that goes on, and there is no reason -- none -- to take over that position from the Corvette.
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But the Aston chose to run along side the Corvette instead of tailing him. I understand that endurance racing isn't a sprint. But the Aston willing attempted to get around the Corvette at 40 seconds.

You said that the Aston would probably prefer to trail and make fuel gains in the draft. That's reasonable thinking, but the Aston did not do it. He gunned it down the straight and when he couldn't pass by the second chicane, he tucked back behind the Corvette.

It's the running side by side that makes me think that the Aston was looking for a pass on Mulsanne, which wouldn't have been hasty or boneheaded at all. Just drive past the other car.

there's no reason for the team to force their hand with the remaining car less than one hour into the race.
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True but, I'd hardly call just driving past the other guy a boneheaded move. If the Aston had cleared the Corvette on the straight, I'd guess that he would have completed the pass and stayed in front.

But again, there is definitely ambiguity.

I'll be in the pits at LeMans this year in June, and with any luck, embedded with one of the American teams. I'll be happy to ask about it and report back. :)
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Lucky. And that could shed quite a bit of light. But I bet we'll all forget that this thread even happened by then though haha.






EDIT

This should take endurance out of the equation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le_5tALFvFo
 
The cars you mention like you said have restrictor plates so the amount of speed they are going to gain from the draft are limited. But you want to argue that because of those limitiations the draft in the game is not accurate. I'm sorry that PD didn't make a restrictor plate version of the cars in the game, but that does not make the way the draft works inaccurate. Nascar knew that the effect of the draft would be signficiantly reduced by using restrictor plates. That why they did it, to slow the cars down, and tighten up the pack for more exciting racing. If someone was able to go 228 mph by themselves in an unrestricted car that did not have the technological advances of the car of Tomorrow, why would the speeds of an unrestricted car of Tomorrow with the aid of other cars be unrealistic? To me I would expect that car to go faster than 228 mph. So what if PD did not put restrictor plates on the cars that does not make the draft unrealistic all of a sudden. Also the faster you are going, the effect of the draft you are getting is going to be bigger. It's just plain physics.

iRevelationz
What you seemingly don't understand is how unrelaistic the draft is in GT5. NASCAR runs restrictor plates in real life at Daytona. Without draft, the cars seldom exceed 190 mph. With draft, they'd hit around the park of 195-198. With the 2 car lock we've seen with the COT, speeds could slighty exceed 200 mph. It all depends on the size of the plate NASCAR mandates. In GT5, there are no restrictor plates. Its not uncommon for a single car to hit 215 mph. With help, speeds around 240 mph can be seen. Explain what part of that is realistic. I, unfortunately, see no logic in that comparison. You want proof? This and my previous statement concerning Indy is all I need to give.

I'm well aware of Rusty's speed. But remember, that was by himself, at Talladega, in a TEST SESSION. That was just to see how fast they could really go if they turned them loose without plates. Obviously, that kind of speed isn't safe.

Its not the speed itself that is unrealistic. Its the speed when you get around other cars. Thats when things get ugly.
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Well, he couldn't pass, because he made very little gain in the first place due to the draft. Coming out of the chicane, they were essentially the same speed (Aston slightly faster when he exited better), but since he wasn't in the draft, we shouldn't expect the Aston to get by due to drafting. We'll also never know what games the drivers were playing with each other. Testing the waters, looking for places to pass, feeling out the other cars' strengths and weaknesses...for all we know, the AM driver was flipping off the Corvette driver all the way down the straight. lol

I agree with you 100%, though, about the NASCAR speeds. Those are incorrect. Next question is, are the speeds incorrect because of drafting, or are they incorrect because PD didn't model the effect of the restrictor plate? These are 900 horsepower cars in the game, which doesn't sound like restrictor plate racing. 900 horsepower should definitely be able to reach 230 down the straight with a draft. Shoot, race cars with 550 horsepower were reaching almost 240 back in 1970 on crappy tires.

And you're right, I'll forget this thread when I'm in the pits at LeMans. *grin*

Interesting discussion, though! 👍
 
IceGT
The cars you mention like you said have restrictor plates so the amount of speed they are going to gain from the draft are limited. But you want to argue that because of those limitiations the draft in the game is not accurate. I'm sorry that PD didn't make a restrictor plate version of the cars in the game, but that does not make the way the draft works inaccurate. Nascar knew that the effect of the draft would be signficiantly reduced by using restrictor plates. That why they did it, to slow the cars down, and tighten up the pack for more exciting racing. If someone was able to go 228 mph by themselves in an unrestricted car that did not have the technological advances of the car of Tomorrow, why would the speeds of an unrestricted car of Tomorrow with the aid of other cars be unrealistic? To me I would expect that car to go faster than 228 mph. So what if PD did not put restrictor plates on the cars that does not make the draft unrealistic all of a sudden. Also the faster you are going, the effect of the draft you are getting is going to be bigger. It's just plain physics.
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Fair enough, I suppose. I'll return to my previous question. Draft or no draft, have you ever seen a NASCAR car exceed 230 mph in real life at Indianapolis. Its beyond easy to accomplish in GT5. The speeds their aren't too far off what they are at daytona, so draft effects would be roughly the same. Same goes for Indy in real life. No plates, so speeds should be the same. However, there's a well over 20 mph difference. If you can thoroughly explain that one, you have a box of Oreo's waiting for you. :)
 
It's not the top speed that is the problem. It's the crazy fast amount of boost you gain from a draft in GT5 that is off base.
Exorcet
It's the running side by side that makes me think that the Aston was looking for a pass on Mulsanne, which wouldn't have been hasty or boneheaded at all. Just drive past the other car.
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👍
He was most certainly looking for a pass.
Your video even shows him gaining speed from drafting, but not crazy fast gain of speed like in GT5.
 
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Tommy_861
Having been on Daytona in a Formula car (with about 12 other guys on track) in real life I can attest to drafting is as crazy IRL as in this game. As well all you need to do is watch a NASCAR race and see what happens when someone falls out of the draft and how far they drop in a very short period of time.
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Yup. Nascar Drafting in the game in particular, in my opinion is very representative of real life and it is literally very strong.
 
Wolf-M
You mean swaying from one side to another on the final straight attempting to break the opponent's draft?

I see that rather often among some newcomers to the series and I would have thought that is against racing etiquette and is very unsportsmanlike...
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No stewards in GT5!

Personally, I see it as a response to the increased draft force. If it were closer to real life, you wouldn't NEED to weave quite as much. But once the trailing car gets into passing distance (rather than 100yrds. behind which is a bit excessive for the kind of tow you get), then yes, you shouldn't weave more than the one 'racing move' you are allowed. Mind you, this changes from series to series and is enforced with varying degrees, too.

If it's good enough for Scumacher, it's good enough for me!
 
deftonesmx17
It's not the top speed that is the problem. It's the crazy fast amount of boost you gain from a draft in GT5 that is off base.

👍
He was most certainly looking for a pass.
Your video even shows him gaining speed from drafting, but not crazy fast gain of speed like in GT5.
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When he pulls out from behind the Corvette, he does it immediately after the first chicane. He's only doing 100 mph right there, and he's coming out of a corner. This is not drafting, he simply had a higher exit speed coming out of the chicane. There wasn't even time to develop enough of a draft to pull him along for the pass. What we saw there was a drag race, not a car pulling out from behind another in a draft.

It's the first hour of a 24 hour endurance race, and he doesn't need that position. If it falls in his lap, fine, otherwise, he's not going to push it. I'm assuming he's a mature driver, and knows better -- especially after his teammate had just done something stupid and damaged his car.

Because this is the 1st hour of an endurance race, there is absolutely nothing conclusive you can draw from that video about drafting. You're making an assumption based on other forms of racing, that the driver intends to pass at all times. Not so in endurance racing. Find a different video to prove the point about drafting, because you can't prove an intent to pass, or even an intent to go faster at that particular time. Race strategy is more important than position in the early hours.

Now, if this video was in the 23rd hour and the 'Vette and Aston were fighting for position, I'd say that the video was conclusive. Not the part after the chicane, because there was no draft. But the part prior to the chicane, the Aston would have had a chance to draft for the pass before entering the braking zone.
 
Draft should be included, but it is way too ineffective. I was in my X1 and my friend was in a fully tuned fiat 500 (new one) he got it up to 230mph slipstreaming me down the Mulsanne straight. That thing only had around 270bhp so should never be able to reach those kinds of speeds.
 
Man this crap irks me sometimes. I just raced on Deep Forest and continually took a 2 second lead on each lap through the bulk of the course. However, the 2nd place car just drafted me every single lap on the back straight, and on the last time through he drafted me and won. Maybe that's racing, but I was clearly the better driver and I think it's lame that 2nd place is actually the more advantageous position to be in because of how strong the drafting effect is on this game.
 
SS_1182
I think it's lame that 2nd place is actually the more advantageous position to be in because of how strong the drafting effect is on this game.
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Try a Google search using 'NASCAR' and 'sitting duck'. NASCAR drivers aren't too fond of being in 1st going into the last lap...
 
ElSecundo
Try a Google search using 'NASCAR' and 'sitting duck'. NASCAR drivers aren't too fond of being in 1st going into the last lap...
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Yeah, I know. Just hurts when the 2nd place driver clearly can't beat you on the technical part of the track, and yet he wins simply because there's a long straight at the end. Racing is racing... :gtpflag:
 

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