Pontiac Cobalt, err, G5

[YSSMAN]

M5Power, I seem to recall the '06 G6 GTP performing pretty well against it's other sport-sedan compeditors in Car and Driver a few months ago. Yes, the car finished in last place, but performance wise, it did allright.

The problem is, in it's current form the Epsilon chassis does not lend well to high-performance driving. A greater ammount of stiffness would be welcome, as would beefier V6s (on the way for '07). Pontiac did a good job making the car feel a bit more sporty, but most people who buy them aren't going to be cross-shopping the Jetta GLI or Honda FPO Accord.

...Oh, and on the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Saturn thing....

That is how I understand they kinda want to slot the "new" Saturn into the lineup. Chevrolet will again take the place at the bottom of the line in most circumstances, making the "bread and butter" sedans, coupes and pickups. Pontiac will baisically be the upscale version of Chevrolet (as they have always been) and will package more sporting equipment with luxury pieces and a price point that is atleast $1000+ more MSRP on most models. Saturn is playing a double roll, on the one hand having cars like the Astra to appeal to the would-be VW buyer, and on the other hand the Aura which would appeal to the would-be Acura TSX buyer.

...Saturn, alike the rest of GM is in the middle of a BIG change. Keep in mind that they are changing to be more like the Opel/Vauxhall brands they are now alligned with, thusly making them a quasi-American VW.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

The simple truth is that there isn't. For one thing, I "dare you" to name a performance version of Pontiac's minivan, the SV6, or their SUV, the Torrent. Furthermore, I see no performance model in the Vibe or G6.

A Performance minivan? and the demand for this is.....?

The Vibe's "performance model" has 164 horsepower (nine more than the Suzuki Aerio which is also lighter - think that's a performance car?) and manages the 0-60 run in a spectacular 8.7 seconds. Be still my beating heart.

164HP? Civic's Golf's, etc, many cars have had 160HP or even less HP on "performance" models in the past 2-5 years, and nobody lambasted them.
And I'd expect to either see the Vibe scratched soon, or get a more powerful variant.

Pontiac touts the G6 GTP as a "performance model" which is total bull****. I'm sorry, but the vehicle has 240 horsepower. Once again - be still my beating heart. Midsize sedans with more horsepower than that STANDARD with their six-cylinder include the Hyundai Azera, Mitsubishi Galant, Nissan Altima, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Volkswagen Passat, and Subaru Legacy, all of which are quicker. Yeah, the G6 GTP is a performance car compared to the other ****ty G6s, but sorry - it's midpack for the class as for as performance. No dice, you idiot Pontiac.

So, only cars with top-of-the-line industry power are performance models?
So, Honda/Acura fail to have a performance NSX? *cough*
Here's a spot: The G6 can get a 6-speed Manual, how many of the listed cars above can? and how many of the listed cars above are larger, and weigh more? (aka Grand Prix Comp, not G6)

To my knowledge, the only Pontiac models which HAVE a performance version are the Grand Prix, GTO, and Solstice, two of which are the performance version. The GTO is about to be cancelled, and the Solstice's "performance" comes mainly from its looks, considering that it's slower than my twelve-year-old 4-speed Volvo which I had to push from the driveway on to the street today.

So blast Miatas while you're at it. And the lower-model Elise's. For not being an American Fanboy, you sure seem to base everything on power, and not much else, which takes me by surprise.

I'm glad that you realize this is your two cents and literally nothing more, since these opinions are exactly that, not to mention totally irrelevant.

Actually, it is very relevant. Looks = Excitement. The Pontiacs look faster, sleeker, just plain better, granted that is my opinion, but I'd be so bold to say more people would agree with me than not.

Saturn is playing a double roll, on the one hand having cars like the Astra to appeal to the would-be VW buyer, and on the other hand the Aura which would appeal to the would-be Acura TSX buyer.

This is a horrible idea. changing a companys image is difficult enough. but to try to keep the image, except a few exceptions, will simply fail. If you disagree that's ok, just remember my words, that this is a stupid idea, that will not work whatsoever.

 

[1X83Z]

A Performance minivan? and the demand for this is.....?

None! But you incorrectly said Pontiac had a performance variant for every car - and in fact you DARED me to name them! I'm just saying you're completely wrong in saying this.

164HP? Civic's Golf's, etc, many cars have had 160HP or even less HP on "performance" models in the past 2-5 years, and nobody lambasted them.

What cars had 160hp or less over the last 2 to 5 years and were considered performance variants? I dare you to name one of those.

And you'll note that no car calling itself a performance variant in the last two to five years was doing 0-60 in more than 8.5 seconds, like the Vibe GT is. It's NOT a performance model. So we agree that three vehicles, half of Pontiac's lineup, do not offer performance versions.

So, only cars with top-of-the-line industry power are performance models?

Top of the line power? I was naming base V6 power from those cars. You don't WANT to discuss vehicles with top-of-the-line power. Then the G6 would absolutely get taken to school. Sorry - the "performance" G6 has a class-average engine. Yeah, it's performance for a Pontiac, but it doesn't cut it when you look at things objectively.

And the other models have disgustingly (and irrefutably) low power outputs - its other V6 is the second-least-powerful in the midsize class, behind the Kia Optima. That's just pathetic from Pontiac.

So, Honda/Acura fail to have a performance NSX? *cough*

What? That's a completely different thing - are you being serious?

Here's a spot: The G6 can get a 6-speed Manual, how many of the listed cars above can? and how many of the listed cars above are larger, and weigh more? (aka Grand Prix Comp, not G6)

Of the seven cars I mentioned, FOUR have available six-speed manuals, and ALL offer 5-speed automatics, which Pontiac doesn't. And, obviously, ALL are quicker than any version of the G6.

So, um, nice try?

(by the way, several vehicles that are less powerful than the G6 GTP are also quicker. Pontiac's really done a nice job engineering this one, clearly)

So blast Miatas while you're at it. And the lower-model Elise's. For not being an American Fanboy, you sure seem to base everything on power, and not much else, which takes me by surprise.

We're talking about performance versions of Pontiacs - you can't base it on handling, since they handle like delivery trucks, so power is all you have - and they're disgustingly lacking. The obvious difference between the G6 GTP and the Miata and Elise is that the two latter vehicles are fun to drive, while the G6 GTP is horribly, horribly average.

And your piss-poor rebuttals sort of prove my point about Pontiac: they just don't have anything going for them.

Actually, it is very relevant. Looks = Excitement. The Pontiacs look faster, sleeker, just plain better, granted that is my opinion, but I'd be so bold to say more people would agree with me than not.

Well my own personal view is that the G6 is the ugliest sedan Pontiac has ever manufactured, and I'm dead serious. Answer me this: which brilliant Pontiac designer put the rear wheels behind the brake lights? Seriously - the G6 is shorter than the Camry, but its wheelbase is longer than a Lexus GS430's. That's a JOKE. I could make a living making jokes about the G6's wheelbase at comedy clubs. Just show them a picture and then give them the statistic that the vehicle is sixteen inches shorter than a Tahoe, though its wheelbase is only FOUR INCHES less. I'd be on Leno in a week.

And if you think looks equal excitement, then your problems go a lot deeper than poor rebuttals.

 

[1X83Z]

You are way to hard on GM. They are making small steps in the right direction. I don't think all their cars are **** as you describe them.

I'm giving LeadSlead and GM a lot of crap in this thread, but truth be told I'm a huge GM fan (I'm literally pushing my own father into a Saturn Vue V6 to replace his Toyota Camry) and I want nothing more than to see them succeed - I'm just completely frustrated. I mean, they know what's to be done, and we've seen that car companies can be turned around in just a few years (Nissan), but GM just doesn't seem to be doing it, and there are tens of thousands of examples.

For instance: in 2002, the Nissan Altima debuted with a 240-horsepower 3.5-liter V6. Since that debut, every single imported midsize sedan has had at least 220 horsepower, and some have had as much as 270. Class average now hovers at around 240. So why does Pontiac release the G6 four years later with a 200-horsepower V6? It's totally non-sensical. I hate how GM and fans are feeling sorry for the brand when the steps to success are really not that difficult to figure out.

I take issue with you saying the vehicles are a cheaper alternative, but that's another discussion for another time. I highlighted the merits of the Honda Accord against the Buick Lacrosse a few weeks ago in this forum, and most of it showed that the Lacrosse lagged significantly in the pricing department.

 

[YSSMAN]

And the other models have disgustingly (and irrefutably) low power outputs - its other V6 is the second-least-powerful in the midsize class, behind the Kia Optima. That's just pathetic from Pontiac.

So if Pontiac and Hyundai suddenly had two of the most powerful V6 options in the industry, just by a few ponies, and Honda and Toyota are shuffeled to the back, that would make them pitiful as well?

Rip on the G6 all you want, but the car has been a success. Although I personally have some minor issues with the Epsilon platform, the G6 is argueably the best variant of the car on this side of the pond, maybe only the Saab 9-3 SportCombi being any better. The car looks quite nice, the interior is nicely done, and build quality feels to be far ahead of that of not only it's American competition, but it has also inched closer to the Japanese standards as well.

The car was exactly what the Pontiac brand needed. A nicely drawn and executed alternative to cars like the Camry and Accord that can appeal to a wide range of consumers given the variations of one particular model. As you have noted, refinement on the mechanical side isn't as great as that of the Toyotas and Hondas of the world, but when you are saving some money on comparibly equiped vehicles and getting similar fuel mileage, it evens out for most people.

...Keep in mind that GM is altering the G6 lineup for 2007. As noted above, the base 3.5L version of the car will be recieving a boost in power up to 224 BHP and 220 lb-ft of torque as they are changing the design of the engine from the LX9 to LZ4.

The G6 GTP keeps it's 240 BHP 3.9L V6, but I would not be surprised to see AFM/DOD and FlexFuel become standard on that model as well.

Pontiac is ADDING the G6 GXP to the lineup in 2007 as well, using the LY7 V6 (otherwise known as the "high-feature" V6) from the Cadillac CTS and Buick LaCrosse. In the G6, the car should have about 250 BHP, a greater ammount of refinement with the DOHC VVT powerplant, and the added smoothness of the new 6T70E 6-speed automatic.

Then, Pontiac can hold over it's compeditor's heads that they are the one of the only ones who offer a 6-speed automatic...

 

[1X83Z]

So if Pontiac and Hyundai suddenly had two of the most powerful V6 options in the industry, just by a few ponies, and Honda and Toyota are shuffeled to the back, that would make them pitiful as well?

Look, it's not about being shuffled back - Pontiac knew what the class wanted, it knew what all its competitors had, and it still came out desperately low in power, with just 200. It's just not how car companies operate if they want to remain competitive. If Pontiac and Hyundai had the most powerful V6s, then Honda and Toyota would step right up and come out with better ones. That's exactly what happened to Toyota in 2002 and 2006, in fact:

In 2002, Toyota's design espionage totally failed and they released the new Camry desperately low on power - 210 to the Altima and Accord's 240. So what did they do? In 2003, the very next year, they had a brand new 3.3-liter engine ready that matched competitors in acceleration and refinement. And by 2006, that engine was at the back of the upper echelon of midsize sedans, so what happened on the new Camry? Strongest V6 in its class, and another all-new engine. Meanwhile GM is still trying to sell an engine that would've been competitive six years ago.

Do you understand what I mean better now??

Rip on the G6 all you want, but the car has been a success.

Yes, Enterprise is quite pleased with the vehicle.

The car was exactly what the Pontiac brand needed. A nicely drawn and executed alternative to cars like the Camry and Accord that can appeal to a wide range of consumers given the variations of one particular model. As you have noted, refinement on the mechanical side isn't as great as that of the Toyotas and Hondas of the world, but when you are saving some money on comparibly equiped vehicles and getting similar fuel mileage, it evens out for most people.

"Saving money" and "G6" do not go in the same sentence. Don't make me compare the G6 and the Accord like I did with the Lacrosse and the Accord last month.

Then, Pontiac can hold over it's compeditor's heads that they are the one of the only ones who offer a 6-speed automatic...

Yes - but $10 says if that engine does get into the car that it costs $4-$6k more than competitors' vehicles with similar outputs. Takers?

 

[YSSMAN]

According to Edmunds.com:

2007 Pontiac G6 GTP (I guess they stuck with GTP as the top-model): $24,400 MSRP with 3.6L V6 and 6-speed automatic.

2006 Honda Accord EX: $27,300 with 3.0L V6 and 5-speed automatic.

 

[1X83Z]

Are you referring to the 3.9-liter V6, or are you serious about the 3.6 thing? Then again I assume horsepower won't rise. I'll do the comparo if you clear that up, I guarantee the Honda emerges the better value.

EDIT: actually I can only compare the 3.9 since those are the only specs I have. But I'm going to be quite honest and say the 3.6 is a huge, huge step in the right direction. Wasn't there to be a G6 GXP?

 

[YSSMAN]

EDMUNDS.com has the 3.6L listed, as does CARS.com and VEHIX.com as well. Looks like they stuck with the GTP name, which is surprising, as all of it's conceptual predecessors used the GXP name when equipped with the 3.6L. I'm begining to wonder if they will use the DI 2.0L Turbo engine out of the Solstice GXP, but it would be rather pointless, as the BHP gain between the 3.9L (240 BHP), 3.6L (252 BHP) and 2.0DIT (260 BHP) would almost be pointless.

...So, that would put the Pontiac up on the Honda by 8 BHP and 50 lb-ft. As of yet, the Pontiac's fuel mileage has not been tested. Given the extra cog in the gears and the decent fuel numbers of the CTS equipped with the same engine, it should be on par with the Honda, give or take maybe 1 MPG.

On the options list, the biggest advantages for the Honda come in the fact that it has a standard moonroof, CD changer, heated mirrors, and a few nifty tricks with the lights. Strong points? Depends on your tastes I suppose, but the G6 comes in $3K short of the Accord in MSRP. The only really bad thing I guess is that you can't get a manual in the G6 GTP 3.6L, but given how "great" the one was in the previous 3.9L model, I think I can live with a paddle-shifted automatic...

Isn't it great when GM does something right for a change? I wonder if they will be sticking the 3.6L in the Malibu SS... (let me check and see)

EDIT: Nopers, the Malibu SS sticks with the LZ9, 240 BHP 3.9L V6...

 

[Tornado]

I have a question. What is the 3.9? Is it some kind of evolution of the 3800, or is it a seperate engine?

 

[YSSMAN]

From what I understand, both the 3.9L and 3.5L share nothing with the old 3.8L V6s. The new models use the same 60 degree design that dates back to 1980 and the 2.8L V6 that was found in models like the Pontiac 6000SE and Buick Skylark. Of course the design evolved over time, spinning off 3.1L and 3.4L variants, but now has been completely redone.

Both the 3.9L and 3.5L now have VVT, and with the 3.9L systems like Active Fuel Management has been added along with E85 capability. As it stands right now, the 3.5L and 3.9L engines will be replacing the rather old 3.8L and 3.8L S/C units (it is sad to see them go...), and the 3.6L engine will take top-spot as the king of the V6 hill at GM.

 

[Tornado]

No way. With Rover gone, that means that two of the oldest engines in automotive history are leaving (AMC I6 and the 3800), making the oldest engine on the market right now is the 454 V8 in the full size Chevy trucks and SUV's. It's quite a shame to see the 3800 go, and from what I've heard, the 3.9 isn't much better. Man, if only they cast the 3800 in aluminum like it was originally.

 

[YSSMAN]

The 3.9L is a pretty good engine, as it does make an extra 40 BHP on the "normal" 3800, and only 20 BHP less than the S/C unit. I doubt Pontiac and Buick want to let the engines go, as they really have been great over the years, but they need to make way for engines that are more refined and have better fuel efficency.

The 3800 will remain a favorite with GM fans, and I'm positive GM High Performance will continue to build 3800 S/C engines for a few more years to sell to the aftermarket.

 

[Tornado]

Does the new six speed auto hook up to the 3800?

 

[YSSMAN]

That I'm not sure of. I'm not even positive if the 6T70E will hook up to the 3.9L or 3.5L engines. I'm sure GM is working on it if it can, especially with the Zeta/VE models just a bit down the road.

 

[Tornado]

I personally think that they should hook that tranny up to every car they can. The only thing ever wrong with the 4L60E was it was down a gear, and then GM went and added 2 more. Though I assume it would work with every car that has used the 4L60 (as they really had no problem hooking it up to the 'Vette) I am unsure as to both how transmissions are conected to the engine in general and how the designs of where the 4L60 and 6T70 connect to the flywheel are similar. But imagine it: Buick GNX with a 6T70E. I shudder at the thought. Hell, my car would be far better with the 6T70E, as it would likely make the anemic engine feel less anemic.

 

[1X83Z]

On the options list, the biggest advantages for the Honda come in the fact that it has a standard moonroof, CD changer, heated mirrors, and a few nifty tricks with the lights.

Actually Honda slots in quite far ahead of the G6 GTP for options - the prices are quite comparable versus the Accord EX V6 when you add the stuff the Accord has standard. That includes the Premium Value Package, which is a 6-CD changer and a sunroof ($1650), curtain side airbags ($690), leather ($1265). That's $3605 in options and brings the Pontiac's base price up to $28000 which is $1k north of the Accord, which also has more interior room in every measurable dimension except rear leg room. And of course Honda offers a powertrain warranty where Pontiac doesn't. Not to mention the Accord's SIGNIFICANTLY higher resale value (literally gigantically better). And I assume the Accord gets better fuel economy.

And it doesn't depend on your tastes - if you want the G6 without all that stuff, you can also get an Accord LX V6 which is still cheaper than the G6 when comparably equipped.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

None! But you incorrectly said Pontiac had a performance variant for every car - and in fact you DARED me to name them! I'm just saying you're completely wrong in saying this..

Excuse me? what's that say? oh it's Car. I'm just saying you were completley confused when typing this.

What cars had 160hp or less over the last 2 to 5 years and were considered performance variants? I dare you to name one of those. .

2003 Honda Civic SI and 2004, and 2005,......
Mini Cooper S.... Toyota Corolla S (170)

And you'll note that no car calling itself a performance variant in the last two to five years was doing 0-60 in more than 8.5 seconds, like the Vibe GT is. It's NOT a performance model. So we agree that three vehicles, half of Pontiac's lineup, do not offer performance versions. .

Solstice, GTO, G6, Grand Prix, hey!, that's 4 out of 7! that's more than half, no?

Top of the line power? I was naming base V6 power from those cars. You don't WANT to discuss vehicles with top-of-the-line power. Then the G6 would absolutely get taken to school. Sorry - the "performance" G6 has a class-average engine. Yeah, it's performance for a Pontiac, but it doesn't cut it when you look at things objectively. .

Name it. Tell me about the Accord, Hyundai, blah blah MID-size sedan/coupes with so much more power than what you named.

And the other models have disgustingly (and irrefutably) low power outputs - its other V6 is the second-least-powerful in the midsize class, behind the Kia Optima. That's just pathetic from Pontiac..

So you demand better from Pontiac than everybody else?

Of the seven cars I mentioned, FOUR have available six-speed manuals, and ALL offer 5-speed automatics, which Pontiac doesn't. And, obviously, ALL are quicker than any version of the G6. .

Give me times, and name the ones with 6-speeds. and then say how it's obvious.

(by the way, several vehicles that are less powerful than the G6 GTP are also quicker. Pontiac's really done a nice job engineering this one, clearly).

Chevy builds Pontiac Engines

We're talking about performance versions of Pontiacs - you can't base it on handling, since they handle like delivery trucks, so power is all you have - and they're disgustingly lacking. The obvious difference between the G6 GTP and the Miata and Elise is that the two latter vehicles are fun to drive, while the G6 GTP is horribly, horribly average. .

YOU mentioned The Solstice being underpowered, I retorted comparing the Solstice to a Miata, and Elise, two vehicles with similar, or less, power. Keep with the game, man, and look below, a perfect time for you to mention piss-poor rebuttals

your piss-poor rebuttals sort of prove my point about Pontiac: they just don't have anything going for them. .

Except you can't seem to grasp my piss-poor rebuttals, which sort of sums it up about anti-American car - people.

Well my own personal view is that the G6 is the ugliest sedan Pontiac has ever manufactured, and I'm dead serious. Answer me this: which brilliant Pontiac designer put the rear wheels behind the brake lights? Seriously - the G6 is shorter than the Camry, but its wheelbase is longer than a Lexus GS430's. That's a JOKE. I could make a living making jokes about the G6's wheelbase at comedy clubs. Just show them a picture and then give them the statistic that the vehicle is sixteen inches shorter than a Tahoe, though its wheelbase is only FOUR INCHES less. I'd be on Leno in a week. .

So A long wheelbase means a car's crappy? go road-race a Jeep than genius.

And if you think looks equal excitement, then your problems go a lot deeper than poor rebuttals.

Wow, you think looks don't arouse excitment? aside from the porn industry, who is the first person to buy a car they thought was ugly? Did they scream, "I'm so excited about my ugly new car!!"?


P.S. I know you know where that edit button is... you rascal!

 

[YSSMAN]

Actually Honda slots in quite far ahead of the G6 GTP for options - the prices are quite comparable versus the Accord EX V6 when you add the stuff the Accord has standard. That includes the Premium Value Package, which is a 6-CD changer and a sunroof ($1650), curtain side airbags ($690), leather ($1265). That's $3605 in options and brings the Pontiac's base price up to $28000 which is $1k north of the Accord, which also has more interior room in every measurable dimension except rear leg room.

Good find, but I still say the differences are minimal as well when you are getting a more powerful engine and argueably better transmission for just a few bucks more. Granted, it is a shootout in some areas as to what car is better, and for me its a toss-up. I drove the Honda Accord EX V6 when the car first debuted (this was with the automatic) and I was dissapointed, but with the Pontiac I was surprised, but I would concede that it isn't on par with every car it competes against.

And of course Honda offers a powertrain warranty where Pontiac doesn't. Not to mention the Accord's SIGNIFICANTLY higher resale value (literally gigantically better). And I assume the Accord gets better fuel economy.

Pontiac offers a powertrain warranty, 3 years/36,000 miles (check Pontiac.com), the standard across the entire industry. Yes, Honda's is better, I KNOW. As for resale value, that is a derrrrrrrr moment for everyone. Most folks know the Honda won't depreciate as fast, but Pontiacs aren't as bad as what they used to be either. As for fuel economy, don't assume anything. The combination of the extra cog in the gearbox, FWD and a similar weight to the CTS, I'd predict the MPG to be about the same as the Honda, maybe down by one overall given the extra 10 BHP.

And it doesn't depend on your tastes - if you want the G6 without all that stuff, you can also get an Accord LX V6 which is still cheaper than the G6 when comparably equipped.

Actually no, the Honda Accord LX V6 starts about $700 more MSRP than the Pontiac. The Pontiac offers larger aluminum wheels, automatic climate control, and a few other luxury items not on the LX. It may not be a huge difference, but comparably speaking, the Pontiac still comes with a bit more.

People who hate American cars are more likely to go with the Honda, as are the easily-fooled folks who read publications like Consumers Reports and other anti-American automotive reviews from the likes of the NYT and LAT.

The car is what it is, and improvement that was needed, moving the car to where it SHOULD have been when it debuted. Better late than never I suppose, but GM did a good job with the car. I like the Aura better though, and I still belive that will be the surprise hit once it comes out.

 

[1X83Z]

Excuse me? what's that say? oh it's Car. I'm just saying you were completley confused when typing this.

2003 Honda Civic SI and 2004, and 2005,......
Mini Cooper S.... Toyota Corolla S (170)

The main problem I have with this is that each of those vehicles has 160 horsepower or more, not less than 160 horsepower. Try again. What makes me laugh is that you said "many" performance models have had less than 160hp. You even underlined "many."

Solstice, GTO, G6, Grand Prix, hey!, that's 4 out of 7! that's more than half, no?

Except that I simply don't believe the G6 has a performance version, which means 3 of 7 - which is absolutely pathetic for the "performance division."

Name it. Tell me about the Accord, Hyundai, blah blah MID-size sedan/coupes with so much more power than what you named.

Okay. MazdaSpeed 6, Mitsubishi Galant RalliArt, Subaru Legacy GT, and Nissan Altima SE-R. Unlike you I don't make posts without anticipating that question, mister "many performance cars under 160hp."

So you demand better from Pontiac than everybody else?

Please attempt to actually READ my posts next time. I said the Pontiac has the SECOND WORST base V6 regarding horsepower. I'm not ASKING for best in class - that seems to be a complete impossibility for Pontiac. What I'm asking for is something other than second worst.

Give me times, and name the ones with 6-speeds. and then say how it's obvious.

The ones with 6-speeds are the Nissan Altima SE-R (260hp 3.5-liter V6; 6-M), Toyota Camry SE V6 (258hp 3.5-liter V6; 6-AT), Volkswagen Passat 3.6 (280hp 3.6-liter V6; 6-AT), and Honda Accord EX V6 (244hp 3.0-ltier V6; 6-M). And by the way, though you're touting the 6-speed manual on the G6 you should know that 98.1% of six-cylinder G6s sold are equipped with that 4-speed automatic, so good luck finding one of those six-speeds you're ranting about.

As for times:

Toyota Camry SE V6 (258hp 3.5-liter V6): 5.9sec
Hyundai Azera (263hp 3.8-liter V6): 6.2sec
Mitsubishi Galant Ralliart (258hp 3.8-liter V6): 6.2sec
Nissan Altima SE-R (260hp 3.5-liter V6): 6.3sec
Volkswagen Passat 3.6 (280hp 3.6-liter V6): 6.3sec
Honda Accord EX V6 (244hp 3.0-liter V6): 6.6sec
Pontiac G6 GTP (240hp 3.9-liter V6): 6.9sec
Subaru Legacy 3.0R (250hp 3.0-liter H6): 7.5sec

I admit I assumed the piss-ass Legacy was quicker. Six out of seven ain't bad.

Chevy builds Pontiac Engines

Actually I assume General Motors builds the engines, but this is another issue with you not reading my posts properly; you might want to check the definition of "engineer" as it relates to "engine"; you'll note they're quite different.

YOU mentioned The Solstice being underpowered, I retorted comparing the Solstice to a Miata, and Elise, two vehicles with similar, or less, power. Keep with the game, man,

I actually had no idea you were referring to the Solstice since not only did you not mention it, you made that point right after discussing the G6. However you're missing my point - I don't think the horsepower figure on the Solstice is bad, I think its quickness leaves a lot to be desired. The difference between the Elise and the Solstice is that though the Elise is also a relatively low-powered vehicle, it's still a rocketship. I'm not about to question the Solstice's looks, nor its dynamics - just its acceleration.

Except you can't seem to grasp my piss-poor rebuttals, which sort of sums it up about anti-American car - people.

See this is the problem with you. Had you actually taken a second to get some perspective and size up my arguments, you'd realise that they're pretty rational things to say. Instead, you immediately thought I was some anti-American car guy, and you've treated me as such ever since. Unfortunately, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Let's take a look at my own personal history as it comes to American cars:

- The last car I recommended my family buy was domestic (a 2003 Mazda Tribute) as was the prior car (a 2001 Ford Explorer Sport). Both vehicles were purchased.
- The top car I'm recommending for my family's next purchase, which will happen next month, is also domestic - a Saturn Vue V6.
- My next car purchase, which will happen next summer, sees domestic vehicles at numbers three and four on the list.
- My favorite large SUV is the Dodge Durango.
- My favorite wagon is the Dodge Magnum.
- One of my favorite midsize sedans is the Chevrolet Malibu - in fact, it's my favorite for "non car people" due to its high number of features per dollar.
- My favorite large sedan is the Dodge Charger.
- My favorite small SUV is the Saturn Vue V6.
- Every year I give out a "Car of the Year" award to the best vehicle (only ONE VEHICLE) that year in terms of value. For 2004, that vehicle was the Saturn Vue V6; for 2005 it was the Ford Mustang, and for 2006 it was the Dodge Charger.
- My favorite SUV ever manufactured is the 1991 Ford Explorer.
- I believe that the number two most significant modern vehicle are the 1983 Chrysler minivans.
- I believe that the number ONE most significant modern vehicle is the 1986 Ford Taurus.
- My favorite car ever manufactured is the 1986 Ford Taurus.

Do not ever call me biased. I analyze cars based on their numbers - performance, handling, pricing, fuel economy, interior room. Country of origin never, EVER figures in to my analyzations. Don't ever call me biased or anti-American-car again. And for the record, I've heard the argument that I'm anti- every single nation's automobiles except Sweden (which is absurd because if I'm biased against anything, it's Saabs). American is not one I usually get given that list you just saw. Don't make that mistake again. Understood?

So A long wheelbase means a car's crappy? go road-race a Jeep than genius.

No see this is a problem with you not reading my posts again. We were discussing styling and I said its styling is piss because of its wheelbase. It's got nothing to do with performance. Come on, please attempt to read my posts if you're going to reply to them.

Wow, you think looks don't arouse excitment?

What I find funny here is that not only did you not read my post, you replaced MY word with YOURS. Dude, I'm not making the arguments you want me to - I'm making BETTER ones. Please rebut to them with a little common sense.

Of course looks AROUSE excitement. However I said looks do not EQUAL excitement. That statement is obvious if you're intelligent in the slightest. Please read it again. Looks do not EQUAL excitement. Do you see now??

P.S. I know you know where that edit button is... you rascal!

Huh? Go find me a sub-160hp performance model.

Good find, but I still say the differences are minimal as well when you are getting a more powerful engine and argueably better transmission for just a few bucks more

I can't figure out why you think it's more powerful - the Lacrosse with that engine has 240hp, which would be (marginally) less powerful than the Accord, and the Rendezvous with that engine has 242hp, also less powerful. I'm not saying you're wrong since that engine clearly is capable of more power (like in the CTS), but I don't understand why you think it's going to have the extra power.

And I admit in doing that comparison, the Accord barely squeaks by - I was quite surprised. However the 200hp V6 simply has got to go.

As for fuel economy, don't assume anything. The combination of the extra cog in the gearbox, FWD and a similar weight to the CTS, I'd predict the MPG to be about the same as the Honda, maybe down by one overall given the extra 10 BHP.

Perhaps - though it should be noted that the Accord compares very favorably to the Lacrosse in terms of fuel economy. Though as you said, the G6 would have a better transmission. We'll see, I suppose.

Actually no, the Honda Accord LX V6 starts about $700 more MSRP than the Pontiac. The Pontiac offers larger aluminum wheels, automatic climate control, and a few other luxury items not on the LX. It may not be a huge difference, but comparably speaking, the Pontiac still comes with a bit more.

The G6 GTP is $23100; the Accord LX is $2k more expensive. The Accord has a 6-disc CD changer and power sunroof ($1650 together on the G6), brake assist (not available on the G6), heated mirrors (not available on the G6), a power driver seat (not available on the G6), and most importantly, front side and side curtain airbags ($690 on the G6). So Accord comes out marginally cheaper, with marginally more stuff, as well as marginally more powerful and as of right now with significantly better fuel economy, interior room, powertrain warranty, transmission, and resale value. My choice would be the Accord, then.

 

[Tornado]

In LeadSlead's defense, the last gen. Civic Si, original VW Golf 1.8T (I beleive they made it 180 in 2003) and Mini Cooper S were all around 160 BHP. The Si had 160, the Cooper S had 163 and the 1.8T originally had 150 BHP.

- The top car I'm recommending for my family's next purchase, which will happen next month, is also domestic - a Saturn Vue V6.

Be sure to reccomend the older body style. The new one is just bad

I'm anti- every single nation's automobiles except Sweden (which is absurd because if I'm biased against anything, it's Saabs).

That is just ironic on so many levels.

 

[1X83Z]

In LeadSlead's defense, the last gen. Civic Si, original VW Golf 1.8T (I beleive they made it 180 in 2003) and Mini Cooper S were all around 160 BHP. The Si had 160, the Cooper S had 163 and the 1.8T originally had 150 BHP.

I know, I'm just giving him a crap time because of his attitude. Plus he did say that many performance models are south of 160hp, which we all know is total crap. The Civic was 160 exactly, but the Cooper S was a bit north of 160, coming in at 163 originally and 168 today.

The GTI is really the only one I could think of as it had just 150hp - however only for model year 2001, as they were at 180 by 2002. The problem I have with that is that it's even worse than the G6 in terms of a performance model - 0-60 with the either tranny hovered at about 8.4 seconds. The Turbo Beetle also used that engine, putting out 150hp all the way into 2005, however that is neither pitched as nor considered a performance model.

Be sure to reccomend the older body style. The new one is just bad

I wasn't even aware that the new one was imminent enough for photos to be out. We'd better hurry!!

That is just ironic on so many levels.

Ah the out of context quote - you should run for political office as a Republican. (har har har, that was a joke, settle down right-wingers)

 

[Tornado]

I wasn't even aware that the new one was imminent enough for photos to be out. We'd better hurry!!

I meant the first body style of the Vue, before the recent revision, without the front grill that eat's children.

Ah the out of context quote - you should run for political office as a Republican. (har har har, that was a joke, settle down right-wingers)

Wait? What? I was talking about irony in that they are probably the best product the General puts out. What were you talking about?

 

[YSSMAN]

I can't figure out why you think it's more powerful - the Lacrosse with that engine has 240hp, which would be (marginally) less powerful than the Accord, and the Rendezvous with that engine has 242hp, also less powerful. I'm not saying you're wrong since that engine clearly is capable of more power (like in the CTS), but I don't understand why you think it's going to have the extra power.

And I admit in doing that comparison, the Accord barely squeaks by - I was quite surprised. However the 200hp V6 simply has got to go.

The LY7 that is being used in the '07 GTP has 252 BHP, the same ammount as the Saturn Aura, 3 fewer BHP than the Cadillac CTS. Once the DI version of the LY7 (I don't know if there is an engine code for it yet...) appears, that is rumored to have somewhere closer to 260-270 BHP, but nothing is offical yet.

...So, yes both the Pontiac and the Saturn are more powerful than the Honda...

As for the 200 BHP 3.5L unit, that has been replaced as well. Power on the base models has been bumped upwards to 224 BHP with the LZ4 version of which is based off of the LZ9 version of the 3.9L unit. This new aluminum heads with VVT along with a modified ECU, so it is supposed to be more efficent as well.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

wow, that post was so full of bad resources or stupidity, I just can't tell. To much for me to deal with.

And I highly doubt many (if any) believe you "knew" the power ratings of those cars.

and 0-60 times are NOT any stand-out performance figure, common people use 1/4 mi for acceleration, but you know this already.
and was that G6 6-speed or 4-sp?

No, I didnt mention the Solstice. Good point. except you mentioned it, you brought it up, you brought it to light, and when I retorted, you couldnt remember what you typed a day before.

and 2 of your six speed manuals, are AT. - ???

And I AM calling you biased, hell, you called yourself biased. what? are you gonna sue me?

 

[YSSMAN]

Why wouldn't I know the power ratings on the G6? They use the same engines as the rest of the GM lineup.

 

[usedHONDA]

I think it looks tons better than the Cobalt.

I heard that there was a new Pontiac concept, but I didn't think it would come out so soon.

Now I would like to see the concept for the new Firebird.

The G6 has up to 280hp, GTO 400hp, the Solstice 175hp, no idea of the Grand Prix or Torrent or SV6, and the G5 has a low 173hp

 

[GT4_Rule]

Wow, this place is turning into quite bit of a war...

It's sad to see the 3800 V6 go. It was a great engine.

Back on topic, I did see a G5 a while back. It looks exactly like the Cobalt. So basically, my question was, "what the hell is the point?"

Badge-engineering at work.

 

[YSSMAN]

I saw a yellow G5 at the local Pontiac Dealer yesterday, and it was sitting next to a GTO. As I drove by, I thought to myself, "Wow, that G5 coupe looks kinda like a mini-GTO...!"

The car looks great, and I really do like it better than the Cobalt. The only problem is, I don't know if I can justify the price difference between the two cars, other than the idea that the Pontiac seems like it's design flows a bit better, and has an argueably better looking interior as well.

...But the fact remains, you are still buying baisically the same car...

 

[1X83Z]

I meant the first body style of the Vue, before the recent revision, without the front grill that eat's children.

I hadn't even noticed a major change - we'd be buying new though.

And if the Vue's grille eats children, then the B9 Tribeca's grille eats Indochina.

Wait? What? I was talking about irony in that they are probably the best product the General puts out. What were you talking about?

Oh I was just kidding - I thought you were making the joke that if you took that sentence alone it looks like I'm saying that I am biased against every manufacturer.

Do you really think Saab is the best product they make? My main problem with Saab is actually the 9-5; I just hate it so much. It and the Suzuki XL-7 make up the duo of the single worst vehicles on today's market. I actually really like the 9-7X and 9-3 SportCombi; I'm indifferent about the 9-3 and 9-2X, and I have a biting hatred for the 9-5 that runs so deep I'm considering pissing and moaning about it on an Internet forum for another three years.

By the way - Cadillac is definitely the best product they make. I'd put Chevrolet second. Isuzu is worst.

wow, that post was so full of bad resources or stupidity, I just can't tell. To much for me to deal with.

I'll revel in my victory - it's not often someone just concedes an argument as you've done right now. In fact, in my history on GTP I don't think I've ever seen someone be so hot on their argument and then just back down as you just have. Proving that rationality can indeed win out over irrationality - despite what it seems given the state of affairs with the oval office. I would like to bring to attention this statement however:

And I highly doubt many (if any) believe you "knew" the power ratings of those cars.

What does that mean? Which cars are you referring to?

As for the 200 BHP 3.5L unit, that has been replaced as well. Power on the base models has been bumped upwards to 224 BHP with the LZ4 version of which is based off of the LZ9 version of the 3.9L unit. This new aluminum heads with VVT along with a modified ECU, so it is supposed to be more efficent as well.

Better better better - now GM is taking larger strides.

Perhaps they can assist Ford...

It looks exactly like the Cobalt.

A lot of people are falling all over themselves to proclaim their love for Pontiac in this thread; you however have spoken the truth and should be lauded for it. The god damn car looks exactly like the Cobalt.

It's sad to see the 3800 V6 go. It was a great engine.

I'm not sure it'll be totally gone - remember, it still serves as the base engine in the Buick Lacrosse and Lucerne.