Pontiac

[Firebird]

They already hate the Grand Prix. It's front-drive, and we know front-drive isn't "cool" anymore, right?

They don't like the GTO either (too expensive for a Pontiac, looks too much like a Cavalier, guzzles too much gas, etc.).

You watch, Vic. The media will find a way to hate Solstice too. It's a Pontiac: they're not allowed to like Pontiacs. People aren't supposed to like Pontiacs, remember? People who like Pontiacs are people who "don't know any better".

"Educated" consumers like Hondas and Toyotas. Hondas and Toyotas use an eye-dropper's worth of gasoline in 500 miles, handle like sportscars, have twice as much interior space in half the exterior dimensions, are completely indestructible, and buying one makes your bowel movements smell like freshly-baked cinnamon rolls.

 

[Victor Vance]

Front drive was never cool to drifters - but I'm sure greying baby boomers will love the promise of V8 power... which will keep the sales rolling until the rear-drive platform used on the CTS/STS/SRX starts to branch outside of Cadillac...

The solstice? C'mon, it's a Miata only with more decent room in it.

And the GTO to me is a ray of hope to me with the promise of maybe a 2007 Camaro.

My dad's already thinking of replacing the Roadmaster with the GXP after hearing the engine was a good old small-block 👍

 

[neanderthal]

the yanks ceded the small car market to the japanese in the 80s, and then basically gave up on cars, migrating to high profit trucks and SUVs.


now that the japanese (and europeans) are edging in on that high profit market segment, suddenly ford and GM have money troubles? i dont think so. they've had those "money problems" for a long time, but they were hidden by nice fat profits from truck sales.

i remember when ford was king of the hill in terms of profit, maybe six years ago, prior to the explorer/ firestone thing. they were even making bad business decisions over at ford credit, undervaluing the value of the cars at the end of the lease, to make the sale, coz they were making profits.

bad business decisions beget less money. thats what has happened. to both GM and ford.


but theres nothing there that good product cant fix. pity they dont seem to get that.

 

[Jetboy.]

People have the (mostly) right feeling that RWD with TCS is almost as good as FWD, and it's definitely WAY MORE FUN. All that TCS stuff is a sunk cost! They're only gonna use it on the vette? If the G6 was RWD, they'd be selling out! The'd have the only american car in the market in that segment. That's GUARANTEED SALES as long as it's not a complete waste of metal! Make the SS concept! Restyle it Pontiac style and make that the new GTO (No offense to the Monaro--I think GM should import half the Holden line)! Use the Caddy's RWD platform! Or just make the Grand Prix RWD (It seems I've actually heard rumors that the next GP will be)! And for people who think the front wheels need to turn themselves (helpful here for the 5-9 months we can get snow, and the people that can't seem to figure out how to dive in it--like everyone complaining about Chamonix and Ice Arena!!), GM is already getting Subaru small car AWD technology for Saab. Holden has non-SUV AWD they could use, too (I don't know if it's the same Sub tech? James?) I read several comments online where guys test drove GTPs just for reference when they were buying a G35 or 3 series, and they were all pleasantly surprised. So what killed the deal? NO RWD! Why is it such a novel idea that a dad would want a sports car, but need 4 doors on his hot rod? Do all the execs not have wives? Don't they have ANY IDEA how much easier it is to talk your wife into a 4 door vehicle? Why am I going to buy a '97 328 when I get a little cash? Simple--it's in my price range, has 4 doors, and it's RWD. It's that simple. Will I look at Imprezas? Maybe. In a couple years, when the price for used ones comes down, I'll look at Chargers. Does GM make a car I'm interested in? Sure. I absolutely love the vette, especially the new Z06. And the Caddys are awesome. Is there anything even close to my price range? Yes, but the GTO only has 2 doors. Is there anything else? Anything RWD with 4 doors? NOPE.

Which brings us right back to the question, "Where would America be if there was no Front Wheel Drive?" One may take that comment in a light-hearted fashion, but, it is the truth. Where would America be? Would there had been the rise of Japaniese imports in the 80's? Would the 'American Musclecar' still be alive?

James, Firebird, you guys want to comment on this?

 

[1X83Z]

It wasn't intended purely for you dude. Otherwise I would've addressed you personally, Firebird. Have any ideas what Pontiac should do?

Bring back the Safari.

 

[a6m5]

What is the appeal in a Corolla, Civic or Sentra, beyond being "Japanese"?

The Corolla, like its larger counterpart Camry, is the single most boring vehicle in its segment. It's slow and drives like a boat. Even the 180hp XRS is slower than its competitors.

The Civic is more composed, but is even slower unless you spring a few grand for the VTEC engine, which is still underpowered.

The Sentra... Christ man, the Sentra is probably the worst compact on the market. Unlike the Corolla and Civic which are half-decently put together, the Sentra uses shoddy materials throughout and build quality is barely a step above the old Cavalier and Sunfire.

Buddy, you seriously need to take a look at a Ford Focus. It and the Mazda3 are easily the best compacts (and, amusingly enough, they're both Ford products).

Corolla: Selling point of the Corollas are not "excitement". Toyotas have built serious reputation with those cars. When I think of "quality", I think of Corollas. Owners seems to love them as well.

Civics: I agree, they are gutless. However, they are also known for quality, fuel economy, built/finish. Hondas are one of the best handling economy cars IMO.

Sentra: I agree 100%. I don't like them(this coming from a Nissan fan).

Focus: Great value for your money(at least in the U.S.). I've never driven one, but they do get good MPG and looks decent. I still don't like the interior and liked the old exterior better, but still above average IMO.

Mazda 3s: You can call this a "Ford Product"(I'd give Mazda little more credit), but I like it way better than the Focuses. Better looking than Focus, in and out. Do Mazda build these themselves? I've been impressed with Mazda's quality in previous Proteges.

And what's this crap about American midsizers being "heavy", having "horrible suspensions" and getting "terrible gas mileage". What the hell planet are YOU living on? Camry weighs 3108-3428lbs. Accord weighs 3020-3353lbs. Altima weighs 3044-3298lbs. Mazda6 weighs 3078-3287lbs. Malibu weighs 3174-3315lbs. Sebring weighs 3173-3228lbs. They're all pretty damn close.

"Horrible suspensions"? What!? Have you driven a Camry? You remember how you think a Buick drives? A Camry is exactly like that: soft, floaty ride on straightaways, then the softly-tuned shocks and springs make for a loss of composure and body roll as you round a corner (and some excessive understeer, depending on the corner).

Oh, and Transport Canada disagrees with your assessment of fuel economy:

Honda Accord (w/ 2.4L I4): 31/44
Chevrolet Malibu (w/ Ecotec): 29/43
Toyota Camry (w/ 2.4L I4): 28/44
Nissan Altima (w/ 2.5L I4): 29/41
Chevrolet Malibu (w/ 3500): 27/42
Pontiac G6: 27/42
Mazda6 I4: 28/40
Chrysler Sebring (w/ 2.4L I4): 27/39
Honda Accord (w/ 3.0L V6): 25/39
Buick Century: 24/39
Buick Allure (w/ 3800): 24/39
Ford Five Hundred (a large car, I know, but I'll include it anyway; w/ 6-spd. AT): 25/38
Toyota Camry (w/ 3.0L & 3.3L V6): 25/38
Nissan Altima (w/ 3.5L V6): 24/37
Ford Five Hundred (w/ CVT): 25/36
Chrysler Sebring (w/ 2.7L V6): 25/36
Chevrolet Epica: 24/36
Ford Taurus: 24/35
Buick Allure (w/ 3.6L VVT): 23/35
Mazda6 V6: 23/35

Seems to me they're all pretty close...




Customers don't want to buy "American" cars anyway. Like I said earlier:

Personally, I don't think anybody has bias against the "Big 3", because they are "American". Out of your list, only ones I wouldn't mind owning are: Accord, Altima, Mazda 6 and maybe Ford Five Hundred. Five Hundred is not a solid pick yet, because of the high price, but the design is starting to grow on me(I did hate it at first). I wouldn't buy any of the American cars in the list, including the Five Hundred and Pontiac G6. It's not because of their nationality, I'd just rather have an Accord or Mazda 6. I like their design, they handle well(IMO) and has above average quality. I might select Camry, if I was a family man. It looks "grown up". Last time I drove one was in the mid-late 90's, but I thought it drove smooth and handled well.

M5: What's a Safari?

 

[1X83Z]

M5: What's a Safari?

One of the worst station wagons ever. Oddly, at the same time it was being sold, GMC was also selling a Safari, except as a minivan. It was similarly trashy.

The Five Hundred is slow poo. The Mercury Montego is where it's all at.

 

[a6m5]

One of the worst station wagons ever. Oddly, at the same time it was being sold, GMC was also selling a Safari, except as a minivan. It was similarly trashy.

I do remember the GMC Safari. I've always liked it's twin, Chevy Astro. 👍 I have to find a picture of the Pontiac wagon.
Edit: I found some pictures. I see the late 80's Safaris were based on Chevy Caprice. I loved the looks of the 70's Safaris. Pretty cool looking(I'm sure they were trash though).

The Five Hundred is slow poo. The Mercury Montego is where it's all at.

You don't like Five Hundred? I wonder if Fusion will be good(name sure sucks ). I heard it's based on the streched out Mazda 6 chasis. I wish they kept it same size.

 

[James2097]

Yes, but the GTO only has 2 doors. Is there anything else? Anything RWD with 4 doors? NOPE.

If skicrush wants a V8, 4 doors, and RWD... We should definately export more Holdens/HSVs. Even the FPV vehicles like the Falcon GT fit the bill for these needs (smokin' dougnuts with kids in the back).

I think this (http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vz/main.asp?link=main/sv6000.html) would DEFINATELY make skicrush happy. We've got the new LS2 6 litre Gen4 V8. And HSV have put it in a real ball-tearer! There are mod shops in Aus that can tune these up to nearly V8 supercar kinds of power (500+ KW). And its practical. Big boot, plenty of rear leg room.

Standard, they do 0-100kph 5.1 secs, 0-400m is 13.3 secs. 👍

Oh and who said utilities have to be dull? Take note America! http://www.ozworks.net/html/home/11/holden-stormriders

 

[1X83Z]

You don't like Five Hundred? I wonder if Fusion will be good(name sure sucks ). I heard it's based on the streched out Mazda 6 chasis. I wish they kept it same size.

There's two reasons I don't liked the Five Hundred:

1. Not enough power or standard features to compete. Ford won't add standard features - god forbid - so I'm waiting for a new engine with 230+ horsepower to liven things up a bit. It's necessary to compete.

2. It replaced the best car made in my lifetime, the Ford Taurus, which singlehandedly put Ford back in consumers' minds in 1986.

 

[a6m5]

It replaced the best car made in my lifetime, the Ford Taurus, which singlehandedly put Ford back in consumers' minds in 1986.

Actually, I think it's the Fusion that's going to takeover for Taurus. Five Hundred is bigger and more expensive. If Ford is going to let Crown Vic die, it'll probably fill in there.

I do agree that Tauruses were revolutionary for America. Whoever designed the first Taurus should've gotten a medal(my personal favorite was the redesigned 92?). However, I still think the Japanese rivals from that era were still better.

 

[Joey D]

If skicrush wants a V8, 4 doors, and RWD... We should definately export more Holdens/HSVs. Even the FPV vehicles like the Falcon GT fit the bill for these needs (smokin' dougnuts with kids in the back).

Actually the 300C, Charger, Magnum...they all do the same thing and they are here in the US. The SRT-8 versions are even faster. But to answer you question no GM shouldn't bring more Holdens over here because they ride like crap. The GTO's suspension was designed to drive through rough roads in the land down under, here in America (save for Michigan) the roads are pretty good. Doubt me at all and I'll go talk to some of the guys on Monday who are working on the redesign.

I think this (http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vz/main....ain/sv6000.html) would DEFINATELY would make skicrush happy. We've got the new LS2 6 litre Gen4 V8. And HSV have put it in a real ball-tearer! There are mod shops in Aus that can tune these up to nearly V8 supercar kinds of power (500+ KW). And its practical. Big boot, plenty of rear leg room

Most of the world thinks of cars in horsepower, not watts. You say you live in America but you use words like boot? It's a friggen trunk. And that car is no different then the GTO, just a different engine. Also it is not practical, a hint of snow and that thing would blow just like the GTO does.

Standard, they do 0-100kph 5.1 secs, 0-400m is 13.3 secs.

The CTS-V will do the 0-60 (0-96.56064 kph) in under 5 seconds, looks better, has more
features, and still can't drive in the snow.

Oh and who said utilities have to be dull? Take note America! http://www.ozworks.net/html/home/11/holden-stormriders

What the hell is a utility? I know it's what I get a bill for at the end of the month but that just looks like a bastardized modern El Camino. Or I guess it would be a mini truck since there was one in truckin magazine a few issues ago.

 

[Joey D]

Best pickup truck? Japan. There's a good reason why the rest of the world doesn't want America's pickups. They are crude, noisy, slow, uneconomical, handle poorly and have terrible interior design and still look mid 90s in style. They are, however, cheap. This means selling a lot of them isn't really hard in the largest economy in the world. It doesn't, however, mean the trucks are well built.

One word F-150! They are the best selling.

Best proper 4WD? Japan. The only vehicle that wouldn't break after 2 days in the Aussie outback: Toyota Landcruiser

Two words Land Rover.

Best hybrid lawnmower? Yanks have nothing. Surprise surprise. Very forward thinking.

Who wants a hybrided lawnmower thats pointless.

 

[James2097]

Nice sig a6m5!

Are we being too nostalgic thinking Pontiac is supposed to be a perfomance division of GM? Because they're obviously not...

Bring back the Trans-Am, just so when someone gets angry and I call them Trans-Am wheel-arch nostrils and they actually understand my insult.

This is exactly the kind of thing Pontiac should be about: http://www.texastransams.com/images/vintage_firebird_ads/81-trans-am-turbo-ad.jpg
They've forgotten how to have cool turbo-charge read-outs. This feature alone will put them on the cutting edge of car design.

 

[Joey D]

Are we being too nostalgic thinking Pontiac is supposed to be a perfomance division of GM? Because they're obviously not...

Performance? Uh Pontiac never has been really based on performance. I mean sure the T/A was nice, but it only sold to punk high school kids. Great market there

Bring back the Trans-Am, just so when someone gets angry and I call them Trans-Am wheel-arch nostrils and they actually understand my insult.

There is a replacement looking concept thing in the works, auto show tour 2007. But there won't ever be another F-body...at least not for a while.

This is exactly the kind of thing Pontiac should be about: http://www.texastransams.com/images...am-turbo-ad.jpg
They've forgotten how to have cool turbo-charge read-outs. This alone feature alone will put them on the cutting edge of car design.

How are turbo chrager read outs (boost gauges) cutting edge technology?

 

[Emohawk]

Don't lawnmowers and other small engines account for a pretty significant amount of pollution?

 

[Joey D]

Don't lawnmowers and other small engines account for a pretty significant amount of pollution?

Yes they do, hell my dirt bike makes tree huggers cry . Oh well if they made a hybrid lawnmower I would more then likely get it because I'm sick of going through 3 tanks to cut my damn lawn!

 

[a6m5]

Two words Land Rover.

Were they bought out buy Toyota recently? I must've missed it!

Nice sig a6m5!

Thanks to you.

There is a replacement looking concept thing in the works, auto show tour 2007. But there won't ever be another F-body...at least not for a while.

I hope, Pontiac will do an amazing job with the new Trans Am. I'm hugely dissapointed with the GTO. No offense to the original Holden car. It's just that, it doesn't strike me as an "Pontiac GTO".

 

[Joey D]

Were they bought out buy Toyota recently? I must've missed it!

Beats me, last I knew they were in partnership with Ford or something. But some other off roaders, Jeeps are capiable off roads and so are Hummers (both). I'll say right now you are an idiot if you doubt either Hummer's off road capibilty.

What about the Toureg? They can manage like a 50 degree approach angle or something like that?

I hope, Pontiac will do an amazing job with the new Trans Am. I'm hugely dissapointed with the GTO. No offense to the original Holden car. It's just that, it doesn't strike me as an "Pontiac GTO".

Purely concept, I've only been told since the drawings are locked up tight in the design dome.

 

[a6m5]

Beats me, last I knew they were in partnership with Ford or something. But some other off roaders, Jeeps are capiable off roads and so are Hummers (both). I'll say right now you are an idiot if you doubt either Hummer's off road capibilty.

I was being sarcastic(sorry). James2097 was referring to Landcruiser's durability in the outbacks. Landcruisers pretty much kicked Land Rover out of the market with their Toyota reliability. When I see footages from third world countries, they mostly drive Landcruisers(sometimes I see Pajeros & Nissan Safaris). If Land Rover had failed in transition to become an premium/luxury company, they could've easily gone out of business.

P.S. I'm an big fan of the Hummers(only H1's). Yes, they're amazing off-road vehicles, but not exactly an everyday SUV.......

 

[James2097]

Looks like you need to re-read my posts with your sarcasm detection cap on blazinxtreme. That whole post about the Trans-Am was intended as a joke. You gotta stop taking jokes seriously! Btw I am in Australia (just pointed out where another Melbourne was you didn't know about), so I am allowed (along with most of the world apart from the US) to say boots and bonnets have something to do with cars, not durable footwear or Jane Austin respectively. I'll reply to your many posts later, gotta go now though.

Alternating between sarcasm and serious posts would confuse the yanks a bit. Better keep it clearer in future.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Actually, to back up BlazinXtreme's post, Pontiac actually wasn't a "performance" division at General Motors until the brand started its NASCAR association with Smokey Yunick in the late 50's, early 60's and the great Fireball Roberts started driving Catalinas to victories.

This, of course, led to the NASCAR/NHRA Super Stock special super duty Pontiacs with the infamous Super Duty line of engines. These lasted until 1963 when the AMA stepped in and killed factory supported racing in America.

Bunkie Knudsen and John Delorean's solution with what to do with the leftover Super Duty parts was to bolt them onto a 389 in a Tempest. We all know how well that worked, and how much the brass was against it because they wanted Pontiac to go back to being a classy, civil brand that produced classy and civil cars like the 1963 Tempest....

....that, for all of you "American cars got no technology" folks, should realize had an all aluminum V8 engine and a rear mounted transaxle with independent suspension all around.

 

[Joey D]

You sir, by replying in such an earnest, humourless fashion, makes you a crazy gung-ho shootin' tobacco chewin' Texas cowboy redneck. Seriously, go get a hungry-man-meal. Someone had to bite in just the way I predicted, and you win mate! Good work! If Americans more readily understood different types of humour, getting a grip on irony, satire and sarcasm, with the bonus ability to laugh at oneself, this alone could bring world peace.

I'm sorry I missed this. First off I'm not gun ho at all, I smoke cigars, I'm from Michigan, and cowboys died out a long time ago. By the way your humor blows.

Looks like you need to re-read my posts with your sarcasm detection cap on blazinxtreme. That whole post about the Trans-Am was intended as a joke. You gotta stop taking jokes seriously! Btw I am in Australia (just pointed out where another Melbourne was you didn't know about), so I am allowed (along with most of the world apart from the US) to say boots and bonnets have something to do with cars, not durable footwear or Jane Austin respectively. I'll reply to your many posts later, gotta go now though.

Alternating between sarcasm and serious posts would confuse the yanks a bit. Better keep it clearer in future.

When being sarcastic [sarcasim][/sarcasim] tags are used on this forum.

 

[1X83Z]

I do agree that Tauruses were revolutionary for America. Whoever designed the first Taurus should've gotten a medal(my personal favorite was the redesigned 92?). However, I still think the Japanese rivals from that era were still better.

That's an absurd viewpoint, having been in an 86-89 Honda Accord and an 87-91 Toyota Camry very recently. Toyota didn't catch up to the 1986 Taurus until 1992, and it took Honda until at least 1994. Then Ford came out with the best Taurus, the 1992-1995 model, and renewed their reign on the midsize market. The 1986 Taurus is the best vehicle in my lifetime, but the 1995 Taurus is the best version of the best vehicle.

Unfortunately Ford didn't continue the domination and in 1996 turned out what I refer to as "the beginning of the end" or perhaps "Ovaltine."

Couldn't fit any more ovals on to the dash, Ford?

I'll say right now you are an idiot if you doubt either Hummer's off road capibilty.

I'm an idiot then. The H1 is too wide and too heavy, and the H2... heh.

If I needed a vehicle for legitimate off-road use, I'd get a Jeep Wrangler. Obviously the Land Rover Defender is nice but for its high price due to its popularity with New Englanders who think it's really cool. The Defender 90 is expensive but the Defender 110 is really expensive. Current Land Cruisers are way too expensive, and 1992-1997 models are expensive and not really that adept offroad (though I saw an off-roader Lexus LX450 yesterday). Previous models are too sparse - one of my friends has an '86 which is a joke inside (plus, it's huge!). FJ40s are nice but we're now talking 25 years old.

 

[Joey D]

They are both very capiable off road, can they climb up a rockey trail, no probably not but they offer more off road then something from the facotry needs. The H1 is a great off roader, the military beats the hell out of them and they haven't failed them yet. Could they better? Are there better? Yes but they still can go off road.

If I needed a vehicle for legitimate off-road use, I'd get a Jeep Wrangler. Obviously the Land Rover Defender is nice but for its high price due to its popularity with New Englanders who think it's really cool. The Defender 90 is expensive but the Defender 110 is really expensive. Current Land Cruisers are way too expensive, and 1992-1997 models are expensive and not really that adept offroad (though I saw an off-roader Lexus LX450 yesterday). Previous models are too sparse - one of my friends has an '86 which is a joke inside (plus, it's huge!). FJ40s are nice but we're now talking 25 years old.

Well at least you see that there are other things out there that can off road.

 

[Victor Vance]

Actually, I think it's the Fusion that's going to takeover for Taurus. Five Hundred is bigger and more expensive. If Ford is going to let Crown Vic die, it'll probably fill in there.

I do agree that Tauruses were revolutionary for America. Whoever designed the first Taurus should've gotten a medal(my personal favorite was the redesigned 92?). However, I still think the Japanese rivals from that era were still better.

One reason the Crown Vic won't die: Ford's selling a lot more than most think. Sure you don't see many consumers driving them but Ford is selling a ton of them to police departments/taxi companies because of their tough and for the most part reliable design... Oh yeah and they're pretty cheap for a full-size RWD V8, the next competitor costing nearly $10,000 more (300C) that's just been introduced to the market with the Crown Vic having proved its dependibility since 1991... and as far as I know cops don't like floor shifters because they normally put their laptops in the middle... and the Crown Vic has a colum shifter and bench seat.

 

[1X83Z]

Oh yeah and they're pretty cheap for a full-size RWD V8, the next competitor costing nearly $10,000 more (300C)

I'm going to take issue with this here because I've seen this mentioned before. One thing people forget is the sheer power of the 300C and the mediocre engine in the Crown Victoria. A base Crown Victoria, with a 224-horsepower 4.6L V8 (275 lb-ft) goes for $24100; opt for the 239-horsepower 4.6L V8 (287 lb-ft) and it rises to $27800. A base 300C is $32900 - $8800 more expensive than the 224-horsepower Crown Victoria, and $5100 more expensive than the 239-horsepower model.

But, the 300C comes standard with a 340-horsepower 5.7L V8 - that's considerably more power than a Crown Victoria. Consider instead the Chrysler 300 Touring: it's a SOHC V6, but it's 250-horsepower, and it starts at $27100 - just $3000 more than the 224-horsepower Crown Victoria, and actually slightly cheaper than the 239-horsepower model. Torque is down - 25lb-ft to the 224 and 37lb-ft to the 239 - but acceleration is improved, slightly.

The problem here is that the Crown Victoria is the favorite. All the parts are around, and they're cheap - plus, fleet mechanics know how to work on Crown Victorias. Instead of price or power, that's the real reason why you won't be seeing the Crown Victoria replaced by any 300 or any other vehicle anytime soon (the Dodge Intrepid was also better - quicker and cheaper - but very few departments switched to it).

 

[skip0110]

Maybe the 4.6 V8 and 4-spd auto make V6-like horsepower, but the engine is under-stressed and can go 150,000 miles easily with only basic maintenance. Great for taxicab and police abuse. Also, I think police departments really want a full-frame car, for durability and the percieved safety (yes, I know about the Crown Vic safety lawsuit). A unibody can't have a push bar on it. The 300C is a unibody.

Police departments will be unlikely to use a FWD vehicle as a patrol car, as the officers are trained in RWD cars. The 300C has a very intrusive stability control system, whihc would get in the way.

 

[Joey D]

Heh we have Magnum cop cars around here, I'll see if I can't snag a picture of one sometime.

 

[skip0110]

Does the Magnum have the same intrusive stabililty control system as the 300C?