Pontiac

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GM is in trouble. This isn't news. First the F-Bodies, then Oldsmobile, and now rumors are running around about how Pontiac and/or Buick should be the next to go. Here's more on it than most of you will want to read, but it fairly comprehensively rounds out GM's current problems.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazin...mpaign_id=nws_insdr_apr29&link_position=link1

A lot of GM's problems are rooted in the simple fact that GM is too large. Too many competing product lines (and worse, too many identical models that compete), too much bureaucracy to adapt to the market, and too much in the way of non-cash legacy costs ("At a meeting with mid-level managers last December, Wagoner described the strategy of engineering cars to use up production capacity as a "legacy cost," says one manager who heard the presentation."(From BW article) And remember, they have to pay one way or another, according to their union agreements).

Now, the solution I have for GM would never have worked with Olds, and would not work with Buick either. But Pontiac used to be "Driving Excitement." How many people are STILL bothered that there is no Camaro or Firebird? And how many dislike the "new" GTO, but would buy one if it was "done right?" I don't think its sales have been wonderful, either. But it's gotten great reviews, and it really is a great car--just ask the Aussies. Can anyone see where I'm going with this?

I think GM should not shutter Pontiac--I think they should sell it. And not all of it, either, just most of it. They'll get cash, and if it's successful, they'll keep getting cash. They maintain enough interest in it to feel comfortable sharing technology (ie the GTO's new 6.0L vette engine, and hopefully the 427 someday, too) not just now, but int he future, too. But Pontiac is freed from the Titanic-like turning radius, and is free to develop cars people actually WANT! WHAT A NOVEL IDEA! Instead of a write-off of several BILLION DOLLARS, they get CASH and (hopefully) future profitability! In addition, they achieve economies for some of their newer (ie still expensive and needing-to-be-paid-off capital investments) investments, and someone else is free to capitalize on Pontiac's rich heritage. Union employees keep their jobs (maybe not under union contract anymore, one may hope, but they still have jobs nonetheless), and the factories don't go to waste either.

Now, my vision for how this would work would initially be like Shelby's or Saleen's relationship with Ford, or HSV's with Holden, transitioning into a more Maserati and Ferrari type relationship. But I don't think GM just has to just take it in the shorts. I think there are creative ways around it, that may benefit GM, billionaires with a yen to enter the car business, and auto enthusiasts alike.
 
I find you've got some good points, but there might be a simple conclusion to your ideologies. Nobody wants to buy Pontiac. Taking a look at the product line right now, they'd have no rights to any of the vehicles in the stable anyways, they would essentially be buying an expensive 7 letter name and a red quadrilateral. Also, the seller would have to be American. The main market would obviously be USA, and having a foreign investor would certainly douse sales a bit, as the all-American part is fairly crucial in what is fundementally an all-American auto maker since the start. GM couldn't even sell the Ste-Therese plant, producing the Firebirds/Camaros. This thing was huge and nobody wanted to even touch the place. Good working area, the factory was already built, and nobody wanted it. Imagine having to sell all of the company? Now the factory is a pile of rubble, some company bought the thing, promptly tore it down and in its place, yet another mega-mall shopping complex.

I'd love to see an independant owner taking over though, it is certainly something that would be interesting to see. A new company that doesn't have to be as conservative with it's designs and has nothing to lose. It would be an interesting move, a challenging one, but possibly a profitable one.
 
Pontiac makes crap cars today. That's something we can all agree with. (The GTO doesn't cound IMO, since it was not designed by Pontiac). But, they have no reason to die off yet. Why? Their cars are selling well, at least in Toronto. The G6 and the Montana SV6 are all over the place here unfortunately. I have no idea why they sell so well; the cars are nothing special, and you can get a superior vehicle for very similar amounts of money.
 
Yet another GM bashing thread, it's getting old :rolleyes:. I don't even have the time or desire to explain.
 
Wasnt there already a thread about GM dropping Pontiac or Buick and it wasnt true?
 
Argh.

Pontiac isn't making crap. In fact they're making quality cars. The problem is a Japanese-centric marketplace that won't give Pontiac a fair shake coupled with big losses developing new product.

Drive the G6 back to back with a Grand Am. There's a huge gain being made there, and the G6 is actually a very good car to replace the Grand Am and do what a Grand Am did.

Yes, the G6 is a boring little family sedan. Is it supposed to be something else? Is a $20,000 V6 sedan that competes with Corollas, Lancers, and Stratuses supposed to be a BMW slayer? Be realistic folks, and judge the car for what it is - a practical, well rounded, affordable family sedan.
 
>>
PURITY OF INTENT

You can't make a car to suit all people. I think the marketers listen to too many varying groups when designing a car. The focus of the car becomes lost in endless surveys about what it needs to do. Awesome at nothing, mediocre at everything.

Every car that is a new or old 'classic' has nearly always been designed by one lead designer, with the intent of the car clear from the first day pen touches drawing board. Think Mini, VW Beetle (1948), Ferrari, Maclaren F1 etc etc. This doesn't have to be any less relevant just because the cars have to be built to a given price.


"Good design doesn't cost any more than bad design."
- myself, 6 May, 2005
Have to remember that one hehe.

I believe that if you build a beautiful car that inspires people, that in itself can drive market interest. Bold move but this is exactly what the new (ie not 70's era) Holden Monaro did in Australia, it came from nowhere to stun show-goers at the Sydney motorshow. It was just a concept, but there was such amazing public affection for it that Holden said "Bloody 'ell mate! We'd better make it now!"

>>
HERO CARS

Every marque that has any sort of performance heritage, NEEDS A "HERO" CAR that is made true and pure to the spirit of the company. It helps sales of even the more ordinary cars in the company's lineup. I know the V8 supercars and Monaros etc help sell a lot of ordinary Commadoor family cars in Aus...

Where's Pontiac's hero car?

Now, the GTO is AUSTRALIA'S hero car, and was only ever designed as such. The GTO is not a Pontiac, and Americans know this. Many Aussies despise the awful changes made to 'their' icon, myself included. The original of a certain model will always be the 'classic', especially when compromised over time (awful fake bonnet scoops on current Aussie Monaro), with updates just to renew flagging sales.

The day Pontiac releases a BRAND NEW, modern, pure performance car that generates a similar kind of love among Americans is when they will be saved as a marque. And not before. The cars are all thats important. You can't market rubbish and Americans know.


>>
INSPIRATION?

As an outsider (my views are totally neutral regarding the US car market), the yanks in general (just browsing around the various brands on the 'net, reading reviews etc), really needs to get some pizazz back into their cars. Seriously uninspired looking cars! (apart from Cadillac - they look like sex and are very modern).

Reinvigorating a brand is my job (although I don't do cars yet! LOL), I am optimistic ANY brand can be saved with fresh, cutting-edge product and a new face. This has worked wonders in recent years for Alfa, Volvo, Mazda (especially), BMW (not to everyones taste, but you can't argue they don't use a cutting edge design direction), even McDonalds LOL with the salads and crap! Anyone can do it with the right product. Hire the best designers, let them go nuts I say! Build it and they will come!

Ford Australia have bounced back from very serious worries they sustained with the (worst car ever) AU Falcon to a solid competitor to Holden. Putting serious research and development costs (more than double of what Holden spent on its new VY Commodoore) into its new BA Falcon was what let them become a force again. Properly funding development of new models is where its at!

Any other concerns about buy-outs, sell-outs or take-overs, union worries etc etc are secondary issues to that of building the best cars possible.

I really like (as does most) the older American cars from the 60's and 70s.. they had style. They made you want to own one, regardless of the practicalities. Where has this ability to inspire the public gone? If you inspire the people, marketing is done for you every time your car is seen by any 10 year old kid on the street who drools at, say, a 1970 Oldsmobile 442 (is that the cool one?) as it burbles by.. it has an inert mystique and glamour about it. This is what American cars lack today (for the most part).

>> OK
Smart-arse time.

Strange how it takes serious problems with things before the yanks do anything to remedy it...
General Motors? Haliburton? 9/11? WW2? Ah enough joking around. I'll get attacked by crazy patriotic republicans that chew tobacco, listen to Rush Limbaugh and drink Bud Lite. (yanks have always been soft drinkers)...

"Oh thats un-American! You can't say that!"
"Hang on, sir he's not an American, so er.. he can."

LOL mate.

Giving the US car industry a second thought..
"When we show the Americans German cars they will understand and stop trying." - John Cleese.

It confuses me greatly that the country with the largest economy and biggest market can't produce the best cars in the world. Why? Someone please enlighten me.


James Hassall
 
BlazinXtreme
Yet another GM bashing thread, it's getting old :rolleyes:. I don't even have the time or desire to explain.

Allow me. :sly:

General Motors seems to be turning around. Kirk Kerkorian recently bought 28 million shares in the company. I'm watching GM's bonds VERY closely.

*edit* Speak of the devil! :dopey: Bonds are junk. :nervous:
 
Its not a GM bashing thread. skicrush is a GM fan, and is thinking about how to SAVE them as opposed to enjoying letting them go under like I might do (only joking :) I am a Holden man).

Denying that there is a problem isn't helpful, even if you throw blind support behind the company.

OK time to cook a BBQ and drink some Crownies (Fosters is just the crap stuff we export to gullible yanks looking for a hick Aussie beer). Crikey mate its good. Wanna tinny cobba? They're in me ute..
I think I'm working the Aussie thing too hard. But most yanks love it. Simple things for simple mi.....
 
I wouldn't be opposed to GM selling Pontiac. Last time I checked, Toyota(who is close to GM) is making more money than they know what to do with. What if GM could sell majority of the shares to Toyota, and let them build new models? Toyota needs to expand, while GM needs to focus more on the brands that's making money for them. I think it could work. I got an idea! 💡 How about combining Pontiac with Scion? Kind of like Chevrolet/Geo or Jeep/Eagle in the 80's. It could be interesting...... :)

James2097
>>
Giving the US car industry a second thought..
"When we show the Americans German cars they will understand and stop trying." - John Cleese.
Thanks, James! I found the rest of "NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE" by John Cleese :lol: It's great! Here's a link, but if you are an American without a sense of humor, I advise you not to read it. :D http://www.patridiots.com/001410.html
 
James2097
(Fosters is just the crap stuff we export to gullible yanks looking for a hick Aussie beer)

Hahaha too right, what Aussies actually drink Fosters anyway?

I dont drink any beer, I dont drive a ute, I never say crikey or cobba, Im not very good for the Aussie stereotype.
 
Smart-arse time.

Strange how it takes serious problems with things before the yanks do anything to remedy it...
General Motors? Haliburton? 9/11? WW2? Ah enough joking around. I'll get attacked by crazy patriotic republicans that chew tobacco, listen to Rush Limbaugh and drink Bud Lite. (yanks have always been soft drinkers)...

"Oh thats un-American! You can't say that!"
"Hang on, sir he's not an American, so er.. he can."

LOL mate.

Giving the US car industry a second thought..
"When we show the Americans German cars they will understand and stop trying." - John Cleese.

It confuses me greatly that the country with the largest economy and biggest market can't produce the best cars in the world. Why? Someone please enlighten me.

Actually smart ass should be changed to dumbass. America produces good cars, are there better one in some catagories? Yes of course, the American companies can't be good at anything. But since you are from the land down under (unless there is another Melbourne somewhere), I would assume you like Holdens. Well they are an American company at the root of it, but hopefully you are aware of that. Car companies have to feed off one another to survive.

You say America can't make the best vehicles in the world? Last time I checked the Ford F-150 was one of the best selling, but I guess you wouldn't know anything about that.

Gah I'm not even going to get started on the sterotypical Republican stuff, but that right there makes you an idiot.

I hate it when non Americans think they know everything about our country.

Allow me.

General Motors seems to be turning around. Kirk Kerkorian recently bought 28 million shares in the company. I'm watching GM's bonds VERY closely.

I hope they trun around so I can get my Christmas bonus :lol:. But it will take a long time to get back going again.
 
James2097
>>
This has worked wonders in recent years for Alfa, Volvo, Mazda (especially), BMW (not to everyones taste, but you can't argue they don't use a cutting edge design direction), even McDonalds LOL with the salads and crap!

Forming a list of these kinds of brands without Nissan is somewhat a shock. Ghosn (sp?) pulled the company completely out of possible destruction, creating a Euro influence skin on a complete new lineup of interesting, modern models.
 
MrktMkr1986
Allow me. :sly:

General Motors seems to be turning around. Kirk Kerkorian recently bought 28 million shares in the company. I'm watching GM's bonds VERY closely.

*edit* Speak of the devil! :dopey: Bonds are junk. :nervous:
damn. I was afraid of that. Knew it was coming, but ... damn.

This is NOT a PONTIAC IS GOING UNDER thread. This is not a rumor--its an option. GM doesn't have to sell Pontiac for this to happen--but I can't see GM making these tough decisions (or getting smart--or at lest spreading the smarts) on its own. In fact, between the union problems and legacy cost issues, it's almost like the gov't's current problem of restructuring social security. More than that, Pontiac has been hamstrung by the loss of their "hero" as james put it. Its fine for the G6 to be a little people mover, but Pontiac is supposed to MOVE people. Not just physically, emotionally. It's supposed to be GM's "performance" division. Sure, it is nice to point out that the G6 is a good little car for what it's designed to do--but that isn't what Pontiac is supposed to be doing! Moreover, it competes with the cobalt in the "semi-econo somewhat smaller sedan" segment, against corollas and altimas. I am completely thrilled at Dodge's success with the 300 and Magnum. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in that market segment before they filled it (Caddy doesn't count--it's the same slot as the 5 series, and I'm talking layout/price here. They both cost a LOT more). In fact, there is STILL no american car that competes with the 3 series. The skyline did, and Nissan finally got smart (MAN!! WHAT A TURNAROUND!!) and brought it here (G35). And it spanks for less. COME ON!! DO ONLY RICH PEOPLE GET TO HAVE THE FUN? FINE! But I'm not rich yet!! And I still need a car!!

People have the (mostly) right feeling that RWD with TCS is almost as good as FWD, and it's definitely WAY MORE FUN. All that TCS stuff is a sunk cost! They're only gonna use it on the vette? If the G6 was RWD, they'd be selling out! The'd have the only american car in the market in that segment. That's GUARANTEED SALES as long as it's not a complete waste of metal! Make the SS concept! Restyle it Pontiac style and make that the new GTO (No offense to the Monaro--I think GM should import half the Holden line)! Use the Caddy's RWD platform! Or just make the Grand Prix RWD (It seems I've actually heard rumors that the next GP will be)! And for people who think the front wheels need to turn themselves (helpful here for the 5-9 months we can get snow, and the people that can't seem to figure out how to dive in it--like everyone complaining about Chamonix and Ice Arena!!), GM is already getting Subaru small car AWD technology for Saab. Holden has non-SUV AWD they could use, too (I don't know if it's the same Sub tech? James?) I read several comments online where guys test drove GTPs just for reference when they were buying a G35 or 3 series, and they were all pleasantly surprised. So what killed the deal? NO RWD! Why is it such a novel idea that a dad would want a sports car, but need 4 doors on his hot rod? Do all the execs not have wives? Don't they have ANY IDEA how much easier it is to talk your wife into a 4 door vehicle? Why am I going to buy a '97 328 when I get a little cash? Simple--it's in my price range, has 4 doors, and it's RWD. It's that simple. Will I look at Imprezas? Maybe. In a couple years, when the price for used ones comes down, I'll look at Chargers. Does GM make a car I'm interested in? Sure. I absolutely love the vette, especially the new Z06. And the Caddys are awesome. Is there anything even close to my price range? Yes, but the GTO only has 2 doors. Is there anything else? Anything RWD with 4 doors? NOPE.

This is what Pontiac's niche OUGHT to be. In or out of from under the GM umbrella, that's where the market is going. There should be a Phoenix in Pontiac's future.
 
DOH! They already made a Phoenix! And it's a POS predecessor (ish) to the sunbird. Man, I thought I was on to something!! With the Firebird dead, I thought a Phoenix would have been the PERFECT rebirth. I guess it still could be, but it wouldn't have as much punch. That just totally took the wind out of my sails. :(
 
VipFREAK
:lol: I Love that avatar. ;)

Thank you! Your avatar is nice too! :drool:

Also, seriously, GMs bonds have a "junk" rating. That means that they'll be paying a higher interest rate on their loans than competing companies. I hope Kirk knows what he's doing. :sick:
 
James2097
(Fosters is just the crap stuff we export to gullible yanks looking for a hick Aussie beer).
*cough* *ahem*
You don't export Fosters. In Australia it's brewed by Carlton and United Breweries, everywhere else is controlled by Foster's Brewing International and their product is generally much better.
 
Actually smart ass should be changed to dumbass.
This would be funnier if you meant I was in fact, a speech impaired donkey.
Which of course is the literal meaning.

America produces good cars, are there better one in some catagories? Yes of course, the American companies can't be good at anything.

I agree, the American companies can't be good at anything.


Which market segments, worldwide, could America make the BEST car in? Lets see:

Supercar? Italy cleans up, Germans second.
Large and mid-size sedans? Japan and Germany clean up.
Small econo boxes? Japan cleans up, Europe second.
Best utilities? Japan cleans up. Yanks have nothing that is as reliable.
Best luxury car? Germany by a considerable margin, then England.
Best hybrid lawnmower? Yanks have nothing. Surprise surprise. Very forward thinking.
Best sportscars? Italy, Germany, Japan, England... The Vette you cry - live rear axle (edit: my bad I meant the new Mustang), bodywork that wobbles when you lean against it even slightly... laughable.
Best proper 4WD? Japan. The only vehicle that wouldn't break after 2 days in the Aussie outback: Toyota Landcruiser.
Best pickup truck? Japan. There's a good reason why the rest of the world doesn't want America's pickups. They are crude, noisy, slow, uneconomical, handle poorly and have terrible interior design and still look mid 90s in style. They are, however, cheap. This means selling a lot of them isn't really hard in the largest economy in the world. It doesn't, however, mean the trucks are well built.
Best muscle cars?
This is controversial but an easy decision. Australia! Thanks for the engines, we put them in cars that look better than the US can manage and we've made a new advancement... they can now go around corners well!

But since you are from the land down under (unless there is another Melbourne somewhere), I would assume you like Holdens. Well they are an American company at the root of it, but hopefully you are aware of that. Car companies have to feed off one another to survive.
For your information (about your own country no less), there's another Melbourne in Florida.

Yes I like Holdens, they are great value for money for what they do, and look classier and cleaner than most yank cars. Cadillacs look nice, but still lack class, being big ostentatious lumps of chrome that still drive like a boat.

Holden operates quite independently from GM (we pretty much just source the V8s. We make the alloytech V6's ourselves, which are incidently far more refined), as one of the more successful brands under the GM umbrella. The less Americanised, the better the car. Thats the pattern lately. Note that the Holden Astra (Opel sourced, more Euro origins) is one of the more refined and better vehicles in the range. The Monaro got substantially worse with only the slightest of 'yank' touches...

You say America can't make the best vehicles in the world? Last time I checked the Ford F-150 was one of the best selling, but I guess you wouldn't know anything about that.

They sold an awful lot of Hyundai Excels in Aus a few years ago. Really exceptional sales. It was however, the cheapest car you could buy at the time. I think we know quality and sales are two distinct things. These 'excel's were complete deathtraps.

By the way, Chevy and GM sells more trucks combined than Ford, and therefore GM sells more full size trucks than anyone, period.

You can get more reliable, more fuel efficient utilities that drive more like a car and do the same job as a US style truck. Toyota and Mitsubishi are favoured amongst the toughest Aussie tradesmen. The F-series Fords, according to them, can't handle the abuse...

See the BBC's program "TopGear" where they test how strong a Hilux is built. This is an incredibly famous test of durability, and was how Hilux's tagline "Invincible" got invented.


Gah I'm not even going to get started on the sterotypical Republican stuff, but that right there makes you an idiot.
I hate it when non Americans think they know everything about our country.

You sir, by replying in such an earnest, humourless fashion, makes you a crazy gung-ho shootin' tobacco chewin' Texas cowboy redneck. Seriously, go get a hungry-man-meal. Someone had to bite in just the way I predicted, and you win mate! Good work! If Americans more readily understood different types of humour, getting a grip on irony, satire and sarcasm, with the bonus ability to laugh at oneself, this alone could bring world peace.

And yanks HAVE always been soft drinkers. :)
 
Oh, joy... Another foreigner thinks he knows something about American automobiles....

I will only ask this: since when has the Corvette had a solid rear axle? That fact that you even suggest it speaks volumes of your ignorance.
 
Yep your right, I hadn't had any sleep all night after a big celebratory party, hence a small slip. I was confusing the vette's specs with the brand new Mustang that I looked at after it. It is in fact the Mustang that has the stone-age suspension. Very sorry for the confusion.

If your unhappy with my conclusions about US cars in general, it doesn't mean I'm not informed. I could say that unless you're NOT an American (because it is seemingly impossible for a yank to put his arrogance aside and look objectively at things), you just can't appreciate how embarrassingly far behind the rest of the world US cars are.

I could just as easily infer that if an American doesn't see why I would say such things about US cars, I could suggest he is the one with a limited understanding of foriegn cars. There is a world beyond your nuke-protected borders. You have, in fact been isolating yourself from a world better than your own. Which is a great shame, and need not continue. If America realises there are things its fantastic at (making electric guitars, inventing rock and roll, PCs, and medical research - big thanks to the US there!), and things its not so good at (making cars, food, diplomacy, comedy), we can all do what we're good at.

For instance, if I were to have a picnic, I would want ze Germans to make ze hamper very well, so its very strong, I would want the Italians to make the food, the French to do the wine, the Swiss can provide the fancy cutting-edge designer cutlery. America can provide the music, but kept clear away from the coffee... Australia would provide the location/weather, England can do the tea and picnic rug and provide some jokes. I think you know what I'm saying now... when you've got choices that extend from every part of the globe, why would you choose an American car? Its like letting the Japanese make the whisky. Hopefully some will see what I mean... and others will be too patriotic (read: irrationally xenophobic and biased, with a good spin put on it) to understand.

Btw, if anyone feels strongly against what I say, please note its just me stirring up the yanks in a friendly manner. I do love ya all, your like a good friend that just needs a good kick in the pants now and then :)

If US cars aim to be desirable again like they once were long ago, they need to be 'excessive', which is the only quality yanks really know how to do. Make them crazy with bits protruding out the back etc. Those kinds of cars were cool. America does 'over the top' well, and seems totally lost when trying to be sensible. That is my advise to GM!

I have to spell it out the yanks that I am 'joking' here, they don't have the best sarcasm detection (anything thats more subtle than an Adam Sandler movie is lost to them - Roy and HG are dumbed down depressingly so for the US audience...). Cheerio dudes. :)
 
It wasn't intended purely for you dude. Otherwise I would've addressed you personally, Firebird. Have any ideas what Pontiac should do?
 
Nope. No idea what they should do. I don't envy GM at all. They could make the single greatest car ever designed and the vast majority of the media and buying public would still hate it.

Conversely the Japanese and European automakers could literally put their badge on a pile of feces and everybody would fawn over it.
 
Firebird
Nope. No idea what they should do. I don't envy GM at all. They could make the single greatest car ever designed and the vast majority of the media and buying public would still hate it.

Conversely the Japanese and European automakers could literally put their badge on a pile of feces and everybody would fawn over it.

:lol:
Yes, theres truth in that.
 
The true problem with GM and Ford are that both manufacturers simply refuse to make the cars that the customers want. Sure, they're selling plenty of trucks and SUVs, but the only motivation to buy a normal car that's made in the US is patriotism. For decades, it's been the policy of these companies that small cars, and inexpensive cars, have to be unappealing and poorly built. Compare a Corolla, Civic, or even a Sentra to the American offerrings. (and, yes, Daimler Chrysler is European) Then, the American companies also are set in the idea that more expensive = bigger. The "midsize" cars the American companies make are heavy, have horrible suspensions, and get terrible gas mileage. Sure, the American companies may make some great niche cars, like the Mustang and 'Vette, but the cars that should make up the base of their lineup are simply subpar.

The American companies only need to realize one thing to achieve success, and that's that they need to build the cars the customers want to buy. Instead of concentrating on Image Cars and trying to develop new niches, they need to concentrate on making some good cars in the classes that make up the bulk of the vehicles on the road. They also have to stop thinking that they stand to benefit from trying to build a cheaper car and sell it for the same price. They'd make much more money if they simply spent more on development and manufacturing, because they'd sell more cars.
 
Takumi Fujiwara
The true problem with GM and Ford are that both manufacturers simply refuse to make the cars that the customers want. Sure, they're selling plenty of trucks and SUVs, but the only motivation to buy a normal car that's made in the US is patriotism. For decades, it's been the policy of these companies that small cars, and inexpensive cars, have to be unappealing and poorly built. Compare a Corolla, Civic, or even a Sentra to the American offerrings. (and, yes, Daimler Chrysler is European) Then, the American companies also are set in the idea that more expensive = bigger. The "midsize" cars the American companies make are heavy, have horrible suspensions, and get terrible gas mileage. Sure, the American companies may make some great niche cars, like the Mustang and 'Vette, but the cars that should make up the base of their lineup are simply subpar.

What is the appeal in a Corolla, Civic or Sentra, beyond being "Japanese"?

The Corolla, like its larger counterpart Camry, is the single most boring vehicle in its segment. It's slow and drives like a boat. Even the 180hp XRS is slower than its competitors.

The Civic is more composed, but is even slower unless you spring a few grand for the VTEC engine, which is still underpowered.

The Sentra... Christ man, the Sentra is probably the worst compact on the market. Unlike the Corolla and Civic which are half-decently put together, the Sentra uses shoddy materials throughout and build quality is barely a step above the old Cavalier and Sunfire.

Buddy, you seriously need to take a look at a Ford Focus. It and the Mazda3 are easily the best compacts (and, amusingly enough, they're both Ford products).


And what's this crap about American midsizers being "heavy", having "horrible suspensions" and getting "terrible gas mileage". What the hell planet are YOU living on? Camry weighs 3108-3428lbs. Accord weighs 3020-3353lbs. Altima weighs 3044-3298lbs. Mazda6 weighs 3078-3287lbs. Malibu weighs 3174-3315lbs. Sebring weighs 3173-3228lbs. They're all pretty damn close.

"Horrible suspensions"? What!? Have you driven a Camry? You remember how you think a Buick drives? A Camry is exactly like that: soft, floaty ride on straightaways, then the softly-tuned shocks and springs make for a loss of composure and body roll as you round a corner (and some excessive understeer, depending on the corner).

Oh, and Transport Canada disagrees with your assessment of fuel economy:

Honda Accord (w/ 2.4L I4): 31/44
Chevrolet Malibu (w/ Ecotec): 29/43
Toyota Camry (w/ 2.4L I4): 28/44
Nissan Altima (w/ 2.5L I4): 29/41

Chevrolet Malibu (w/ 3500): 27/42
Pontiac G6: 27/42

Mazda6 I4: 28/40
Chrysler Sebring (w/ 2.4L I4): 27/39
Honda Accord (w/ 3.0L V6): 25/39
Buick Century: 24/39
Buick Allure (w/ 3800): 24/39
Ford Five Hundred (a large car, I know, but I'll include it anyway; w/ 6-spd. AT): 25/38

Toyota Camry (w/ 3.0L & 3.3L V6): 25/38
Nissan Altima (w/ 3.5L V6): 24/37

Ford Five Hundred (w/ CVT): 25/36
Chrysler Sebring (w/ 2.7L V6): 25/36
Chevrolet Epica: 24/36
Ford Taurus: 24/35
Buick Allure (w/ 3.6L VVT): 23/35

Mazda6 V6: 23/35

Seems to me they're all pretty close...


The American companies only need to realize one thing to achieve success, and that's that they need to build the cars the customers want to buy. Instead of concentrating on Image Cars and trying to develop new niches, they need to concentrate on making some good cars in the classes that make up the bulk of the vehicles on the road. They also have to stop thinking that they stand to benefit from trying to build a cheaper car and sell it for the same price. They'd make much more money if they simply spent more on development and manufacturing, because they'd sell more cars.

Customers don't want to buy "American" cars anyway. Like I said earlier:

Nope. No idea what they should do. I don't envy GM at all. They could make the single greatest car ever designed and the vast majority of the media and buying public would still hate it.

Conversely the Japanese and European automakers could literally put their badge on a pile of feces and everybody would fawn over it.
 
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