Power Pack = sripted AI again

[wlashack]

I am not a hater so writing these lines hurts me inside. But I must say it loud: What I never liked on GT7 was its really unfortunately (to say it nicely) scripted AI. Cars do not race on a given difficulty level, they behave on a scripted basis like "in the middle of the race you all start runningh on 95% only" or "if you are overtaken, you stop racing, as if you were offended that someone passed you" etc. I never understood how anyone came up with this sick idea to "improve" the racing atmosphere.
I hoped that with "new AI" presented in Power Pack these days are over but I was wrong. On the contrary, several new scenarios have been added, such as "three cars will overtake you immediately after the race start, regardless of how well you started". And it really, really hurts. There are no races again, there a pre-scripted scenarios. Therefore I do not compete, I watch what PD thinks will be fun or challenging. But it is none of these. It has nothing to do with racing principles and skills.
In my eyes this ruins all the effort they put into the whole content which is huge and perfectly put together with a deep sense for interesting racing possibilities. After I've done a few races, I've realized that this really doesn't bother me at all. And it doesn't matter if I win or lose. After a race, I never feel like a winner or a loser, but like "WTF was that?". I wish I was wrong and maybe you have a totally different experience.

 

[CTznOfTime]

All video games are scripted.
I understand the feeling, you want a satisfying racing experience, especially since racing online is also a cf...

In this day and age, one would think that AI should know how to give you a fair run for your money...


But The truth is : AI development and script is still at its enfancy.
pD and Kaz are truly doing their earnest best to give you what you want, but I think it is not as easy as we think.

Designing and giving us all a fair AI that can be challenging for everyone between 7 and 77 is much more harder than you think....


If you design an AI for the top 1% best driver player, which they totally can, then no doubt 100% of us will suffer and just give up.

How do you strike the right balance?... How can the Ai know Who they are dealing with, which type of driver is racing the Ai ?

How can Sophy know ?
So for now, and as a compromise until PD and Kaz can update Sophy accordingly with many more machine learning iterations, this is the "best" you will get...


It will take time until PD and Kaz figure out how we can tell how Soph should race against each one of us ... So please be patience...

Scripting racing Ai aint easy.

Instead of having a rabbit, now we have
A Rabbit Ai Or Ai on a leash

You wouldn't be able to compete against a pure, unrestrained AI Sophy...
We already saw her and it was scary .. Kaz tone her down.
The first Sophy 3.0 apparently was already a bit too much for some of us...
So with this update 1.66, we got Sophy 3.1, a tad softer


I unfortunately didn't have a taste of Sophy 3.0, so I can't comment for sure
I still haven't started my peepee, hopefully this weekend or next week.. before Christmas I will try Sophy 3.1

That's my take on this.

 

[wlashack]

I do not talk about scripting. I talk about lets say overscripting.
AI in GT7 Power Pack is very good itself. But PD tries to put an "additoonal layer of commands" to control its behavior to make races "even better" but it works the opposite way — it ruins racing.
Old GT7 AI would race much better if it runs the whole race with the skill it has. But PD does not allow it, it commands the AI cars to go slower after you overtake them and overall in the second half of the race etc. etc. Nonsense, no one is happy with that because this is not racing. No one wants to lose nor win this way. And the same continues with Sophy 3.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I do not talk about scripting. I talk about lets say overscripting.
AI in GT7 Power Pack is very good itself. But PD tries to put an "additoonal layer of commands" to control its behavior to make races "even better" but it works the opposite way — it ruins racing.
Old GT7 AI would race much better if it runs the whole race with the skill it has. But PD does not allow it, it commands the AI cars to go slower after you overtake them and overall in the second half of the race etc. etc. Nonsense, no one is happy with that because this is not racing. No one wants to lose nor win this way. And the same continues with Sophy 3.

Tbh
I have noticed thay behavior in the gt script with the normal computer racer, non Sophy in the regular World Circuit races .. even since GT5, GT6 and GT Sport...

As soon as you pass the leader, they concede....
Only on a few occasions they would keep the challenge, but that's not often ...

It must be some sort of PD philosophy or design choice....
But again we don't know their requirements, they don't design only for you and I, but a wider audience.... That's my guess....

Maybe this should be a question for Jordan to ask Kaz, to Understand their design philosophy
How do they balance... How to tailor going forward... Some sort of Ai scale maybe

 

[suomi1]

Tbh
I have noticed thay behavior in the gt script with the normal computer racer, non Sophy in the regular World Circuit races .. even since GT5, GT6 and GT Sport...

GT5 is to my knowledge the only Gran Turismo game without any enforced rubberbanding.

 

[CTznOfTime]

GT5 is to my knowledge the only Gran Turismo game without any enforced rubebrbanding.

Ouai ça fait longtemps
It's been a long time I haven't played GT5, over 12 years maybe
My memory might be a bit rusty there.... You might be right... But the point is: I haven't as challenged as I am now with Sophy.

 

[wlashack]

But it is not about having challenging opponent only. It is important how this opponent behaves to be challenging. If he is challenging in a natural way or not.
In Power Pack I raced Tsukuba. The car in front of me had a 5 second lead. But it couldn't have because I did all the laps in top qualifying times. And during the last two laps I caught up to that car. Without me driving even faster or the car making any mistakes. It was just ridiculously fast for a while and then ridiculously slow again. That's what I'm talking about, that's just not what I like about that behavior. And it is not about Sophy, it is about something "above" Sophy that tells do this now and do that now. There is no consistency in how cars behave.

On Tokyo Expressway there is a hairpin where you must full brake up to the apex. I go first, brake as late as possible, but before I get to apex, five cars overtake me. It is simply not possible. You cannot approach the hairpin faster without leaving the track completely. But they did. And if you see this, you do not want to race on because this is nonsense. You were not beaten, you were cheated.

Good old ACC has AI that behaves very naturally. At least in terms of consistent driving. You set the level and cars go that fast the whole race. Simple and easy because no additional magic is used here.

 

[ShiftingGears]

The thing I dislike most is the marketing of Sophy by PD that we, the players, will get some rolled gold, diamond encrusted AI experience within the game. When in reality the actual pace of the AI is just their standard AI with rubber banding and scripting, which they could've done 20 years ago if they so chose.

 

[pabloprp69]

The thing I dislike most is the marketing of Sophy by PD that we, the players, will get some rolled gold, diamond encrusted AI experience within the game. When in reality the actual pace of the AI is just their standard AI with rubber banding and scripting, which they could've done 20 years ago if they so chose.

Have to agree. They advertised this evolution of Sophy that supposedly brings a realistic and challenging race.. most of the races now behave just like the base game AI. And don't get me wrong, I'm a custom mode enthusiast, and really really like Sophy 2.1, so speaking from my perspective, I was over excited for what they advertised.

Not only that, they have the genius idea to nerf more and more the dlc just a few days lost launch.

I've been using only two pepper cars and most races have been just like the base game races. There are a handful that provides a decent challenge.

Here's Catalunya Old timers, using the two chilli car, starting from the back. Read their description of the power pack and see if it plays anything like it..

(I took the lead on lap 2)

 

[CodeRedR51]

Thought I would share this 3 lap battle for the lead that recently happened during one of my custom GT4 races using Sophy 2.1. Now this comes with a huge asterisk because there are several settings and/or tricks you need to do to get the racing to be this good. But it is super satisfying when you nail it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I am not a hater so writing these lines hurts me inside. But I must say it loud: What I never liked on GT7 was its really unfortunately (to say it nicely) scripted AI. Cars do not race on a given difficulty level, they behave on a scripted basis like "in the middle of the race you all start runningh on 95% only" or "if you are overtaken, you stop racing, as if you were offended that someone passed you" etc. I never understood how anyone came up with this sick idea to "improve" the racing atmosphere.
I hoped that with "new AI" presented in Power Pack these days are over but I was wrong. On the contrary, several new scenarios have been added, such as "three cars will overtake you immediately after the race start, regardless of how well you started". And it really, really hurts. There are no races again, there a pre-scripted scenarios. Therefore I do not compete, I watch what PD thinks will be fun or challenging. But it is none of these. It has nothing to do with racing principles and skills.
In my eyes this ruins all the effort they put into the whole content which is huge and perfectly put together with a deep sense for interesting racing possibilities. After I've done a few races, I've realized that this really doesn't bother me at all. And it doesn't matter if I win or lose. After a race, I never feel like a winner or a loser, but like "WTF was that?". I wish I was wrong and maybe you have a totally different experience.

Custom races. Make custom races. It's worth it. All the good single player experience is in that feature.

 

[Ande3200]

To me power pack is by far the best place to race the ai. Its where i got the closest to race the ai. The most fun i had in gt7 i feel for years.

Far better than chase rabbit you get in the main career.

Taking the slowest car can be challange specially if you are an average player.

While power pack is paid to me its by far the best thing added to gt7 since it launched.

 

[benjoi84]

In Power Pack I raced Tsukuba. The car in front of me had a 5 second lead. But it couldn't have because I did all the laps in top qualifying times. And during the last two laps I caught up to that car. Without me driving even faster or the car making any mistakes.

Would it have made you feel better about it, had the car in front actually made a big mistake?

I used to have this argument about soccer games, and that's why i stopped playing them. Rather than randomly slip over, mis-kick the ball or pick a pass that wasn't on, the AI opponents just randomly begin to run extra fast/slow, or have unlimited balance and strength (or none), depending on whether the 'script' decided it was time for you to start winning or losing.

Fundamentally, real sports have an intangible quality to them. We feel tension and the sensation of momentum when watching them or playing them. Videogames, especially playing against the AI, are still not at the required technological level to truly replicate that je ne sé quoi of real competition.

My point is, yes, you were made very aware of the script to slow the car in front. Would you have felt more satisfied if you knew that the driver was feeling the pressure of your laps behind him, got distracted and caught a huge moment of oversteer (for example), even if it were a 'scripted event'?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm more wondering how far away we really are from realistically expecting human-like responses from our digital cousins, and whether it's really worth getting our knickers in a twist about it.

 

[VBdoughboy]

disclosure. I've not the pp, for the game in general.

how hard would it be just to have the ai run consistent lap times? +/- this delta depending on tire wear % (fastest lap minus 1 1/2 sec.). possibly add 1/4 to a 1/2 sec. increase, comparable to tire wear delta, for overtaking situations only.
for player skill level, have a sliding scale that would adjust ai lap times but retain this consistency. 10 being alien, 1 being 10 to 20 secs. slower.
this should appeal to those who'd still tune their max Godzilla to win big, yet still
allow those who prefer to tune a more balanced race.

& get rid of brake checking mid apex. please!

 

[Voodoovaj]

For context, I was fortunate enough to be with DICE during the development of Rally Sport Challenge. I wasn't on the team, but I did get information on development, so I can shed light on the questions in this thread (Just opinions because, obviously, PD is a different team, but racing game AI is generally the same).

disclosure. I've not the pp, for the game in general.

how hard would it be just to have the ai run consistent lap times? +/- this delta depending on tire wear % (fastest lap minus 1 1/2 sec.). possibly add 1/4 to a 1/2 sec. increase, comparable to tire wear delta, for overtaking situations only.

Super easy. In fact that's what they do right now (until they are told to change, see below). If you want full race consistency, set up a custom Sophy race correctly and this is what they do for the most part. It's important to point out that this isn't a "script" but an emergent behavior.

What's the difference? A script is exactly that. It will be the same exact behavior every time. Emergent behaviour (as the name implies) emerges from the systems of the AI and it's directives. Coincidentally, I have started to push the emergent behviour in the custom races to see what I can get Sophy to do.

for player skill level, have a sliding scale that would adjust ai lap times but retain this consistency. 10 being alien, 1 being 10 to 20 secs. slower.
this should appeal to those who'd still tune their max Godzilla to win big, yet still
allow those who prefer to tune a more balanced race.

Here's the issue. This is as far from reality that one could get and much more difficulty (to hide) that you think. If you show up at a race IRL, the other competitors don't slow down. YOU have to go faster. Take this year's F1 season. Max didn't get slower, Lando and the McLaren got faster. People want an extremely realistic experience, while also making it as far from realistic as possible, and well, you can see the conflict.

The way Gran Turismo has always operated is that the AI stays (relatively) the same and the player tunes the car to be faster or slower. They set up the "race" to be reflective of how multiplayer (or real life) races play out. The starting position of each driver is a reflection of their skill level. Can you get them to change this behaviour? Yes. Give the back markers faster cars (in custom races) and watch them rip through the field. Their skills "improve" as they gain position.

Why not slow down the AI? You can see this most dramatically with the base AI. It will PARK in the corners. It doesn't flow naturally. Sophy is much better in all regards in terms of behaviour. Making Sophy less difficult means choosing places to obviously slow it down, like the straight, like the braking zones, etc.

This is what the OP is complaining about. Sophy had a lead, and then slowed down to allow the player to catch up. The slowing (the rubber band) is always going to be noticeable.

& get rid of brake checking mid apex. please!

That's only with the base AI. Sophy doesn't do it.


Throw into all of this the general rules from Sony regarding game shipped for PS5. For instance, players needs to be able to complete the game. I can say that when the PP shipped, some of the 1 and 2 pepper races were impossible for me. It wasn't a show stopper, because you could still complete the game on 0 peppers, but that's why the patch came out so fast. It was likely in process before the PP launched.


So, in short, we need more people in the custom races (and I will bet MY LIFE that PD sees the usage numbers and the race data). IMHO, if we could get a hybrid of Custom Race Sophy and the PP Sophy, I think many of us would be happy. Make Sophy custom race (with boost) fast lap after lap, but maintain those consistent lap times regardless of how far it is from the player. It can be done.

 

[VBdoughboy]

For context..

first & foremost, thx for a thoughtful reply.
I'd be ecstatic to have this conversation with this group at the local pub. I'm far removed from coding, if you'd guess by my ID, a baker, retired at that.
on that note...
emergent behavior. Sophie should always learn. front Pro's, back AM's. front consistent, back not so much. individual ai should behave differently. extreme, possibly, but deltas of like F1 vs Champ Car. all I'd appreciate is the ability to choose where to pick and choose, to run and tune accordingly.
as the OP mentioned, how to have the FL and get overtaken is only one example. granted there's more than several variables for this. to have the retrospect, understanding why, would only make oneself learn (if willing).
copy/pasting isn't my strong point, but in paragraphs 4 thru 7, only seems to confirm the need to eliminate rubber banding.
again, I commend your enthusiasm for GT7. taking the time to adjust custom races is an art. I can only hope one day youll be able to share settings so we can all enjoy what's missing.

& please don't get me started on Oscar & McLaren (injest)

(edited for structure l)

 

[Bojador]

I think people focus too much on the AI pace, and it's fair given it's a bit all over the place, but the major aspect of Sophy is how it behaves and how it interacts with each other and with us, the human driver.

It's great fun to race against Sophy in custom races. Yes it has limitations, not all tracks are supported, not all cars are supported, but some of the limitations are choices or lack of priority. Things like rubberbanding, no qualy, lack of options for tyres and pitstops, no rain. Sophy can handle all of that if it can handle car setups (maybe not rain). It's just not built into the game (yet, hopefully).

And even with these limitations, I have a lot of fun racing against Sophy in custom races with the right recipe.

 

[hawkeyez]

The AI slows down once you pass them, because we’d all blow our brains out if we spent 5 laps to catch up to them only to make the pass and then be passed right back.

They showed Sophy unleashed and dialled it back so it’s possible they have control over it which blows my mind why they can’t just base Sophy’s speed/lap times of off the 7 year olds qualifying time or the 77 year olds qualifying time.

Gran Turismo races have always felt scripted unfortunately.

 

[Voodoovaj]

as the OP mentioned, how to have the FL and get overtaken is only one example.

Happens all the time in Sport mode. Racing against real people can generate results that don't necessarily square with each other.

That's my current Sport Mode stats. I have 273 wins, 253 Poles, and 165 fastest laps. None of that coincides. Just because I was on pole, that didn't guarantee a win and not being on pole didn't stop me from winning. Of those 165 fastest laps, few coincided with wins, and obviously given that there's more wins than fast laps, the fast laps don't guarantee wins either.

Yes, Sophy can be "better" but I think more people need to experience racing against others so the context of Sophy's behaviour can be better understood.

 

[VBdoughboy]

Happens all the time in Sport mode. Racing against real people

yes, but the thread was ai.
I gave up on Sport Mode long ago. there's a stark difference in sport, lobbies and single player. the older I've become, the less patience i have. when you get close to pushing 70, the little thing matter most.
yes, I enjoy GT, since 2, hoping I'll be around for 8.
but I digress. one thing I'll never understand is Kaz's philosophy of having to watch a video on sportsmanship, then letting a lobby go wild, doesn't teach good racecraft only bad. his ai isn't much better.

(lets have a bvg if you find your way to SFL)

 

[hawkeyez]

yes, but the thread was ai.
I gave up on Sport Mode long ago. there's a stark difference in sport, lobbies and single player. the older I've become, the less patience i have. when you get close to pushing 70, the little thing matter most.
yes, I enjoy GT, since 2, hoping I'll be around for 8.
but I digress. one thing I'll never understand is Kaz's philosophy of having to watch a video on sportsmanship, then letting a lobby go wild, doesn't teach good racecraft only bad. his ai isn't much better.

(lets have a bvg if you find your way to SFL)

Sportsmanship videos don’t do anything.

What causes the dive bombs and full contact races is the chase the rabbit single player races. It’s training people to race that way. I don’t know how many times I’ve been mid race thinking, I don’t think I’m ever going to catch that leader if I continue to make nice clean passes waiting for my moment. So I resort to bulldozing my way through. So I don’t have to race it again.

You don’t actually learn how to race beside someone in single player because you’re usually divebombing them so they let off and let you go. If you don’t do that, they’ll block you mid corner or coming out of the corner.

Best racing we have is when we’re all pulling almost the same lap times in similar cars and racing clean. Not afraid to hold the outside line or inside line around a corner and giving some space.

I can probably count on my hands how many times I’ve hand memorable races against the AI. Maybe even on one hand.

 

[Bojador]

Sportsmanship videos don’t do anything.

What causes the dive bombs and full contact races is the chase the rabbit single player races. It’s training people to race that way. I don’t know how many times I’ve been mid race thinking, I don’t think I’m ever going to catch that leader if I continue to make nice clean passes waiting for my moment. So I resort to bulldozing my way through. So I don’t have to race it again.

You don’t actually learn how to race beside someone in single player because you’re usually divebombing them so they let off and let you go. If you don’t do that, they’ll block you mid corner or coming out of the corner.

Best racing we have is when we’re all pulling almost the same lap times in similar cars and racing clean. Not afraid to hold the outside line or inside line around a corner and giving some space.

I can probably count on my hands how many times I’ve hand memorable races against the AI. Maybe even on one hand.

The problem is not the dive bombing per se. It's the dive bombs on people who want to race fair. That would be mitigated if SR was harder to gain.

I couldn't care less if bad SR drivers are playing destruction derby, as long as they are kep away of higher SR lobbies.

 

[VBdoughboy]

Sportsmanship videos don’t...

agreed, but racing PD's ai, same.
dont want to clog the tread and take it to some tangent, just an opinion.
Bojador is correct, a human choice, but developer's can always improve. coding is never settled

 

[Bojador]

agreed, but racing PD's ai, same.
dont want to clog the tread and take it to some tangent, just an opinion.
Bojador is correct, a human choice, but developer's can always improve. coding is never settled

Let's hope they do. One thing we can all agree, they are trying to push for a next gen AI. At least Sony AI is. That's more than what other studios, simracing and other genres, are doing.

 

[hawkeyez]

True. It’s very difficult to not get side tracked. I haven’t purchased or played the dlc but I predicted to myself it would mostly be the same old stuff. The only way around it is Sophy drives according to a persons qualify time. Doesn’t have to be exact but within an allowable ballpark. That way it’s matching its competitor. They had it too fast and slowed it down, they can do it again and just go both ways accordingly.

Yes easier said than done but I believe that’s the way to do it. Either that or give us more then easy/medium/hard. A difficulty slider going up by percentage. But that takes the realism out of it. If they can do it based off qualifying times then it will feel less like AI we’re adjusting.

If people want to botch their qualify times, be my guest. I don’t care what they do. I’d prefer to run my best and have a good race.

Just incase they could have a range within that incase you’re running your qualify times and keep losing.

 

[Bojador]

True. It’s very difficult to not get side tracked. I haven’t purchased or played the dlc but I predicted to myself it would mostly be the same old stuff. The only way around it is Sophy drives according to a persons qualify time. Doesn’t have to be exact but within an allowable ballpark. That way it’s matching its competitor. They had it too fast and slowed it down, they can do it again and just go both ways accordingly.

Yes easier said than done but I believe that’s the way to do it. Either that or give us more then easy/medium/hard. A difficulty slider going up by percentage. But that takes the realism out of it. If they can do it based off qualifying times then it will feel less like AI we’re adjusting.

If people want to botch their qualify times, be my guest. I don’t care what they do. I’d prefer to run my best and have a good race.

Just incase they could have a range within that incase you’re running your qualify times and keep losing.

I'd take a slider or more difficulty levels. Something tied to DR tiers pace. That would be very fitting I think.

 

[VBdoughboy]

given a choice, I'd rather DS based.

(note: DS equals driver safety, do not remember the acronym. sometimers.
I'd appreciate those in front have racecraft. those trailing, learning)

 

[Voodoovaj]

yes, but the thread was ai.

Yes, but how should the AI drive when people want "real" competition? Like real people, no? That's the big issue. People want it to be real, but not so real that they can't win, or that it does anything at all like what a real person would do. You can look at any real event and see that the drivers are aggressive, even F1, but if the AI does that, it's broken.

Like the dive bomb. It's absolutely and acceptable move. It happens all the time. Good players pull it off better, but the person on the losing side of it always says that it's cheap or unrealistic, despite HOURS of evidence to the contrary.

The only way around it is Sophy drives according to a persons qualify time. Doesn’t have to be exact but within an allowable ballpark. That way it’s matching its competitor.

And if the player skips qualifying? Or as is the case in the main game, there is no qualifying? Also, people seem to forget that the game is built around modifying and tuning your car. Like, right now there's a Sunday Cup event and every one calls them easy. Take a stock Panda to that race and see how "easy" it is. It's super easy with a modded car, and that's how most people play the single player.

How should the Sunday Cup event "speed up" to match a player, when the AI uses stock cars, and the player uses a modded car? It can't. And this issue exists in almost every event.

given a choice, I'd rather DS based.

SR says absolutely nothing about your ability to drive or how fast the AI should be. It merely says that you don't hit people. Many people (myself included) use Race A in sport mode to regain SR by letting everyone pass and driving by myself at the back of the field.

I'd take a slider or more difficulty levels. Something tied to DR tiers pace. That would be very fitting I think.

Already in the game.

I know people complain that it's still not fast enough, but I see those same people post about the cars they use in an event, and they OP themselves every time. Take the 700PP race at LeMans. Every car in that event is a GR4 car. Does anyone do it with a GR4 car? Do they try something like the 4C? Those GR4 cars are 625-650pp (max), and people use 700pp cars, then complain that the AI is easy.

This is repeated again and again whenever there is a difficult race. The 600pp Tokyo race has pages and pages dedicated to cheating it for a win. Does anyone play it with a 600pp street car and risk losing? I have unbeatable custom races with cars that are 5-10PP more than what I am driving, so the game already has what it takes to be difficult. It simply doesn't employ it in the single player campaign because most players will find a way to win each event easily. Players always take the maximum allowable cars and then complain about the difficulty.

I have said from Day 1 of GT7 that they should have carried over the handicap bonus of GT Sport to encourage players to stick to cars that are competitive to what the AI is using. The Power Pack somewhat enforces this by forcing you into certain cars.

 

[hawkeyez]

And if the player skips qualifying? Or as is the case in the main game, there is no qualifying? Also, people seem to forget that the game is built around modifying and tuning your car. Like, right now there's a Sunday Cup event and every one calls them easy. Take a stock Panda to that race and see how "easy" it is. It's super easy with a modded car, and that's how most people play the single player.

How should the Sunday Cup event "speed up" to match a player, when the AI uses stock cars, and the player uses a modded car? It can't. And this issue exists in almost every event.

Can be a seperate part of the game with qualifying. Cant skip it because AI needs your lap time. Doesn’t matter if you have a tuned car, Sophy will bring something to match your lap time or just copy your tune and slap a random livery on all the cars.

Just ideas, probably impossible to do but hey why not reach for the stars.

Of course taking a slower car to a race makes it more difficult. The problem is it’s always chase the rabbit. I think people want difficulty in defending more than how much speed can I carry to zip past the ai with this 💩 box.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Can be a seperate part of the game with qualifying. Cant skip it because AI needs your lap time. Doesn’t matter if you have a tuned car, Sophy will bring something to match your lap time or just copy your tune and slap a random livery on all the cars.

Gran Turismo's accessibility comes from the freedom of allowing a player to make the game easier on themselves. Some events have limitations, others don't. If you choose to make yourself faster because you find it too challenging, it makes no sense for the game to then speed up even more.

Seriously, try a Sunday cup race with an unmodified car that is under the suggested limit of 400pp. It might surprise you. Every event has a suggested PP and at those levels, it's usually a good race.

Just ideas, probably impossible to do but hey why not reach for the stars.

Of course taking a slower car to a race makes it more difficult. The problem is it’s always chase the rabbit. I think people want difficulty in defending more than how much speed can I carry to zip past the ai with this 💩 box.

But that's what all racing is. All racing is "chase the rabbit" in some form, racing is even where the term comes from (greyhound racing). If you go online, you are either chasing the rabbit, or you are the rabbit. No one will ever accept an AI that behaves like a person.

Here's what's in the game right now. I started 5th finished 10th. PD will never make events like this, because some will not be able to complete the game. They will leave it to the player to make it for themselves. FYI, these cars are all 650pp. 4 in the field are 655pp for an extra kick (and only 2 are at the front of the field at the start).