POWER?

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Pop_173rd_ABN, Oct 28, 2016.

  1. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    New to tuning... Can anyone tell me the best way to add power for Quick Match/One Make events?

    Specifically current event at Tsukuba: Mazda Roadster TC. The race spec. is 464PP. The car's default PP is also 464PP. Default HP is 206. What is the best option for adding power? I have tried "Engine" (Stage 3, only option available)... also Turbo (experimented with all three stages)...

    I've tried both methods of getting PP back down to 464: by using "Ballast"/"Power Limiter" (or a combination of both). In all cases the increases in HP don't have much effect on speed performance on the test track. Lap times are just about equal to the car's default HP206.

    My ignorant guess is that adding ballast to achieve PP limit reduces HP gain because of the additional weight the car has to pull... and the Power Limiter also negates the HP gain. Is there a solution or should I just stick with default power?

    I need to get a handle on this before I get into more advanced tuning. I've read here and elsewhere that power needs to be set before Tranny tuning. I would imagine that final power might also have an effect on the other tune categories like Suspension, Drivetrain and etc.

    Any help I can get with this will be greatly appreciated, I'm going cross-eyed!

    ps– just in case, my email is: rixa@optonline.net
     
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  2. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    Your right on the money with your thoughts that adding weight negates any added power. There may be exeptions, but generally the lighter car will almost always have the advantage in GT6. You might be able to get a better top speed with more power and weight, but acceleration and more importantly handling are going to be negatively impacted. You may not lose a lot of time on a high-speed oval, but the more technical the circuit, the more you'll lose.
    And yes, power and weight levels can have a dramatic effect on other settings too :). For instance, a heavier car or a car which travels faster, will require stiffer springs to handle the extra force being applied when accelerating, braking and turning, but make the springs too stiff and you may not have enough weight being transfered to the right tyres when you need it, which could result in any number of problems (loss of stability/traction under braking/accelerating and inability to rotate car properly in corners etc.).

    For one make races with PP set at stock levels, I'd say the best bet is to stick with stock (or as close as possible) and start working on the other settings :tup:.

    Best of luck with your tuning.
    :cheers:
     
  3. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thank you Mr. Cain, for taking the time to read my post and your, bare-bones/facts of physics, reply. My gut tells me to take your advice and go with the stock HP. Using that as my base point, I'm inclined to tackle the transmission settings to see if I can get a smooth gear transition which will give me an increase of power/speed above what the default settings are in the "Car Settings/Transmission" panel. I see there are many transmission setup posts, here and elsewhere, some start with a flip foundation: max "Final Gear"/minimum "Max Speed" (Auto Set), with various 0.000 settings for each gear (praiano and ghost rider come to mind). Others get deeper into the weeds with a formulaic approach. Again, my gut tells me to dive into the weeds and learn formulas for gear ratios/power band/RPM and etc. Of course that will force me to put on my "math hat" ... which is actually a dunce cap! :)

    Again, many thanks for your input.
     
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  4. Thorin Cain

    Thorin Cain Premium

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    You are welcome :).

    When I started off tuning in GT6 I used the flip trick, which worked out pretty good. But later I found I was limiting the potential of the cars in some cases, that way. It's good for standing start races for sure as you can easily dial in a good launch and adjust other gears, but In lower powered cars the top gears always seem to lack punch (depending on power curve of course).
    Advice I picked up later was to use the top speed slider to find the right top speed then experiment with the final gear (adjust final gear then move slider off desired speed then back on.) to find a ratio that allows better performance. Then adjust other ratios to suit for smooth transitions etc.

    If you want to go down the road of looking into all the real world calculations then go for it, they will work pretty well. @Lionheart2113 and/or @OdeFinn could probably help (Very good maths hats ;)). @Otaliema and @Pete05 are also very knowledgeable with transmissions as far as GT goes and can provide better insight than I can as to what will work best for your needs.

    :cheers:
     
  5. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    For OP, slight power upgrade and limiting it will help many cases to give you few HP less t than stock, but longer flat hp curve on end of rpm.
    Meaning something less than 10% limiter used, otherwise you'll lose too much on torque side.

    This topic can be short, or really long story ;)
     
  6. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thanks again! Looks like I'm gonna put a lot of mileage on the ole calculator, not to mention the wear and tear on my pencil eraser!!! :) Happy racing, buddy!
     
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  7. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thank you OdeFinn, Something tells me that by the time I get my tune right for this Quick Match... the race won't be there anymore! :)
     
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  8. Jeje6410

    Jeje6410

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  9. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thank you Jeje, and all you other guys kind enough to support my learning!

    I plan to experiment with my tuning in the following stages: (1)Power, (2)Transmission, (3)Drive Train, (4)Body, (5)Suspension.

    My reasoning for that sequence is that the first three will determine speed +/-. So by my logic speed would play a major role in tuning the chassis, (4) & (5), to take maximum advantage of the power in turns and fixed starts. I would hate like heck to spend a lot of time fine-tuning the suspension only to have it blown out by the power and weight being exerted on the ride height, springs, dampers and etc.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong... I won't be shocked :)
     
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  10. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    Hi Pop,

    I'd love to help you with sorting out your gearbox ratios as it's the only area I'm truly confident in.
    Unfortunately, I don't have the car you're working on so that'll make it a little bit difficult & in some way, flying blind.

    For Tsukuba, you want your car almost to the redline on the tach in top gear just before braking for the last corner. Anything less isn't taking advantage of all the ratios you have available.

    The easiest way to do this is:
    1. Adjust the final drive slider all the way to the right,
    2. Adjust the top speed slider all the way to the left which will pack all ratios tightly together,
    3. Re-adjust the final gear slider back away from the left in increments until you hit your sweet spot.

    There a finer tuning methods available where you adjust each individual gear slider to suit the car and circuit better but I'd need the car and your final specs in order to do this.

    Good luck,

    Pete
     
  11. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thank you Pete, simple works for me... will definitely give it a try. By the way, met a bunch of great mates, back in the sixties, from the Royal Australian Regiment (1/RAR) when they were attached to my outfit in Vietnam.
     
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  12. Pete05

    Pete05 Premium

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    No worries Pop :tup:
    I'm happy to help however I can. If you have any dramas, let me know & I'll see what I can do.

    Finally, 173rd Sky Soldier. Thank you :bowdown:
     
  13. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    Pending on what type of event you are tuning for, "Body" might have to be moved to 2nd on the list, but that is a good order to start with.:tup: Just be aware that you might have to jump back a phase or 2 during tuning, and that is where it can get confusing.:ouch:
     
  14. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thanks Pete, as always, it's good to have an Aussie on your flank! The only drama I have is trying to race this, for now, under tuned car at Quick Match... I feel like a one legged man at an ass kicking contest! :)

    Be well and race happy!
     
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  15. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thank you Lionheart, this tune is strictly for the Roadster TC at Tsukuba (Quick Match). I've already experienced what you said about Body moving up in order. When I was playing around in the Power setting (earlier post), I had to add some ballast to get the PP back down to 164. And you are so right... Jumping back and forth can drive me nuts!

    Thanks again, have a great night.
     
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  16. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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  17. GNR1987

    GNR1987

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    Some things I've learned and just how I do things:

    Weight reducing to 900-905kg will give you the best P.W.R. at any given PP rating.

    However, most cars cannot reduce to 900kg. This makes light cars in GT6 OP because they generally corner better than heavier cars while at the same time receiving a better PWR at the same PP. Although, if two cars are in the same weight range, GT6 tends to give the better handling car less power. i.e. '97 NSX Type S Zero vs '02 NSX-R. The S Zero will be granted a better PWR at the same PP.

    If your car weight reduces below 900kg, you may want to add ballast. This works well on front heavy FFs like the Mitsubishi Cyborg. You can add a lot of ballast to the rear while maintaining a total weight of 900-905kg.

    Avoid the exhaust manifold and intake manifold. They do not give the best HP. They tend to increase torque.

    If you want a flatter curve, just overshoot the PP limit a little and turn down the power limiter ~5-10%.

    A short track implies a tight gear spacing, so you can get away with a higher peak HP value at the expense of a flat curve. Longer tracks imply a wider spacing, you may want to sacrifice some peak HP for a greater area under the curve for the rev range your gear spacing runs through.

    I tend to add exhaust, cat and sports computer before looking at the engine or turbo upgrades. But every car is different. Sometimes turbos provide the most HP and a decent curve when turned down.

    As for the trans: You want to do what's known as a transmission flip. All that means is you're stretching out the tightest gear spacing available just enough to suit your top speed need. Do this after settling on your power settings. In general:
    1. Reset trans to default.
    2. Pick a final gear "flip" point. (Trial and error)
    3. Set your max speed slider all the way left. (This is the tightest gear spacing)
    4. Bring your final gear ratio all the way left. (This is the stretching of the gearbox)
    5. Adjust the individual gear spacing. (Usually 1st all the way left , 5th&6th all the way right and 2-4 spaced evenly.)
    6. If you don't have enough gear, or too much gear, start over and pick another flip point.
    You can always adjust each gear individually to suit specific corners/circuits like Pete05 said. Also, having 1st gear full left may prove too much gear for low powered cars, especially in slow corners. The revs may drop well below the powerband.

    You may want to set 1st through 3rd relatively short and have 4,5 and 6 hang out. (This works well on 4WDs for drag racing.) Just wanna make sure that after every shift your car stays in the powerband and the revs don't fall too far.

    You can download the GTP drag leaderboard test track or make your own through the course creator and play around. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...t6-drag-leaderboards-begin-no-nitrous.337317/

    One thing I'll add is this: Regardless of the spacing you settle upon, always - ALWAYS - flip the trans so your final gear ends up full left. I don't know what it is, but your car will be quicker this way. I have tested this on the GTP drag leaderboard. Two gearboxes. One with the final gear full left. The other with the final gear somewhere in the middle. Each gearbox is set so that their ratios multiply out to the same net value. The gearbox with the FG full left will always be half a car to a full car length quicker over a quarter mile span.

    Flipping full right is more convenient since you bring the final gear down to what you need and it ends up somewhere in the middle (thus you have adjustment room for either more or less gear without having to re-flip), but it is slower. If you do it this way, make sure to convert your ratios so that your FG is full left once you're happy with your gearbox. Just takes some simple algebra and you're good to go.

    I hope this helps.
     
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  18. Lionheart2113

    Lionheart2113

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    A full left Final Gear @ the end is "quicker" and will set faster times in a straight line... and I will agree because there is no disputing that, but it doesn't mean that it is better for track racing.

    Low Final @ end = quicker acceleration and a more nimble feeling around the track. Tends to slide more entering the turn with its "point and shoot" style. But has great braking ability.

    Mid Final @ end = carries more speed into the corner and tends to develop a snug condition on corner exit. Longer braking distance, but a huge help for tracks with medium speed corners.

    High Final @ end = carries speed into the corner, much like mid final, but a noticeable tight condition on exit. It almost feels like on FWD cars that the front tires are pulling up asphalt when you hit the throttle, and RWD cars are squatting at the rear lifting up the front. Again, it requires stronger brakes and different front suspension to get it to slow down compared to the low final version. It will NEVER win a race down a straight, I'll give it that!

    Each have their own pros and cons...although I wil admit I am having a difficult time trying to find a setup that has high final beating the others:banghead:, but I'm sure it's out there.

    All of this is based on car, track, and driving style of course, and then leads to different ways to tune the car from that point.:tup:
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2016
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  19. GNR1987

    GNR1987

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    That's very interesting. I did not know that. Maybe it has to do with the way the differential interacts with the differing FG ratios?

    A couple weeks ago I helped my friend Maxx_Pain with the Laguna Seca and Suzuka seasonals. He sent me his trans numbers and had his FG roughly in the middle. I did some algebra to convert the values over so that his FG ended up full left and he could keep the same gear spacing. He ended up improving a few tenths in both and ended up taking the 2nd place spot at Laguna. He noted that he had to reduce the acceleration sensitivity and add some initial torque.
     
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  20. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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    Thank you GNR... for taking the time and effort to help me in getting a handle on tuning with all the detailed info. I will definitely keep the weight issues you raise for future tunes. This car is only 795kg to begin with and has no options for further weight reduction. I will take a crack at the tray setup as well.

    Again, your input is appreciated and I hope that someday, when I become more proficient, I can thank you by my being able to help someone else.
     
    GNR1987 likes this.
  21. Pop_173rd_ABN

    Pop_173rd_ABN

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