PP-Tuning system correlation is now ruined

  • Thread starter Daniel55
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Bullwinkle
The PP system was (is) horrible for “balancing” anything because it is built around edge cases, which will ALWAYS lead to exploits. PD isn’t worried about balance, just the exploits, which are indicative of their own lazy game design.
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Back in the PS3 era this was also the case, as lightweight cars like the GSX-R/4 and 2002 Focus RS (plus the Rocket in GT6) being prominent meta cars in PP lobby races (and quick matches in GT6). There is also the issue of hybrid system being treated in PS3-era PP system, given some lobbies tried to ban the TS030 in GT6.

(idk if there were PP exploits in the PS3 era though.)
 
i spent days to earn money, get cars and spent most of the time at tuning my cars to enjoy while driving them. Now all my tunes are gone because of that PP thingy. f.e; 800pp car which i spent hours of doing it now has 860pp. now i have to reduce power of it for no reason...just give people more priced races so that people will not going to need exploits to buy cars and enjoy the game. PD is the worst ever.
 
In my opinion, removing stuff from PP is the wrong direction.
PP in my eyes has to reflect on all tuning, to give a meaning to the term "perfomance points".
Something "the real driving simulator" should take aim at.
 
Guess how we tuned cars in GT1-4? Tweak a setting, go drive it. Tweak it a little more, go drive it. Repeat til you get the desired result. If you needed help you could try GameFAQs or buy a book from Babbage's.
I think the PP system sucks. It has encouraged me too often to set up a car in a way I'd never drive it IRL. Hand me a list of regs instead, it's cut and dried.
The removal of suspension settings will actually reduce the PP of several cars I run by grading them as though they're not at the minimum ride height. As a gamer, not a pro driver, I think this is a good thing. GT7 isn't marketed just to hardcore drivers, it's marketed to everyone including those who just want to crowd around the big screen and have a one evening split screen tournament just for fun. These might be folks who have never played a car game in their life and have no idea what a torque wrench, a combination wrench, or even a 10mm socket are. They certainly don't dig around in Forscan and tweak the PCM tune on a Raptor with it. For them, keep it simple.
In GT1 we didn't have PP. We had restrictions on car types. One of the more difficult endurance races enforced no downforce adjustments by banning race prepared cars.
In real life this is similar. You wanna swap engines or change gear ratios (outside an eCVT) you put the time and sweat into making it happen. For example, a port polish on a 5.0 Windsor takes 2-3 hours at least, plus replacing some gaskets. It does not happen with a point and a click. Wanna change the compression or replace the crankshaft, you gotta pull the engine out (not the easiest from an old Thunderbird). When you're done you don't get a PP number. You go drive it... and if you messed up something, you walked home to use the phone and call a tow truck.
 
Daniel55
By this logic, let's just delete the whole PP system.

Every change that affects the car should be reflected in the PP rating, otherwise is pointless. This is a step backwards
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No - by this logic - set the cars PP limit and set a tyre choice limit.

It worked in gt5/gt6.

It makes it a lot easier to figure out decent cars when picking events.

Ie: you know what the car is, based on the car… not random tyre choice… and don’t have to navigate the slow menu’s to change car and tyres for each one.

Update: looking at all of the complaints: most of them are people complaining that they have used suspension to de-tune cars and get into events that way.

- that’s not why people generally install expensive suspension in their race cars - it’s to increase and improve performance and set it up for their driving style.

The other complaints saying that now you can have cars with the same pp but different performance…

-A. That is 100% how this has always worked anyway - and is only worse when you don’t set a specific tyre type.
If you want balanced races, use stock/spec cars or turn BoP on - that’s the best you’ll get.

-B. Becuase you use suspension to detune your car - to get better cars into lower races - this will actually even things out more and have closer cars.

The main point here is: people will now have to learn to how to tune a car to actually improve performance, not reduce it… just like it should be.
 
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Played 1.23 last night, and see that the Rotational G's calc's do not change if the suspension settings change. Seriously? WT*?

I have no issue with the suspension or diff or gearing etc not impacting the PP calc's, but the G's numbers are a great indicator of whether a suspension tweak is better/worse without needing to do a lot more test laps.

Bring back some form of calculation that show Rotational Gs but doesn't impact the PP calc.


Why are all game developers so detached from the player base? Try to fix one problem but break other features players like.
 
Bikeboy555
Bring back some form of calculation that show Rotational Gs but doesn't impact the PP calc.
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This is just a guess, but the reason why they've done it might be that the PP calculation uses those numbers as an input, so it can't change them or it would change the PP. Obviously it's possible to work around this, but if that's the reason why, it could need considerable extra work to maintain two sets of G figures, one hidden set for the PP calculation that changes in one set of circumstances, and another visible set that changes in other circumstances. It would also risk introducing bugs, but all the same they might be planning to do that at some point.

What would be nice is some sort of free drive environment for testing. In FH4 I always headed to the same roundabout and drove around it, using the lanes on the road to keep a constant radius, and noting the fastest speed I could drive that radius at, that's how I tested things such as optimal cambers. I also looked at the effect on tyre temperatures while doing that, FH4 let you see inner, middle and outer temperatures IIRC, a bit ironic that it was actually more sim in that way than the real driving simulator.
 
Just because you can't figure out how to tune doesn't mean the system is wrong. I don't know of any real racing scenario where you can make you car not fit it's class just because you change suspension settings. This is a big step in the right direction, now they need to take tire choices off the list of things that change PP, it should be hp and weight.
 
boshuter
Just because you can't figure out how to tune doesn't mean the system is wrong. I don't know of any real racing scenario where you can make you car not fit it's class just because you change suspension settings. This is a big step in the right direction, now they need to take tire choices off the list of things that change PP, it should be hp and weight.
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PP is not a class. PP is a fictional value to set limits in the world of GT. Races of cars of predefined classes mostly use BoP so dont allow any changes at all (and if you have a look there, you can see totally different PP values to tell us how bad PP is in balance).
 
Samus
In a word, yes. The PP system, no matter how much they tweak it, can NEVER work properly across all cars and tracks. There are billions of variations to take into account and there will always be edge cases.

There is a reason you don't see any real world series using a similar system to set regulations. Mind you, of course there is still dominant cars in real world series that do use 1000s of regulations, that's just the nature of the beast. If it's not 100% spec racing, you'll never get totally equal cars. All tight regulations can do is their best to prevent too many wild variations.
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Exactly. It’s impossible for a one-dimensional PP score to accurately tell you how well a car will perform, because the physics are not determined by a single variable.

It works decently for cars of similar size, weight, aerodynamics and tyres, but as soon as you’ve got some variation among these variables it’s inevitable that the cars will perform differently depending on the type of track.

The effect of suspension settings on the performance is especially sensitive to the type of track you will be racing on. The impact it has at the Daytona oval will be very different from the impact at Tsukuba.

The good thing about a PP score it that it allows for more variations, because you’re not limited in weight, power and aerodynamics. The bad thing is that it’s not a very accurate rating of the actual performance.
 
Daniel55
If you are in a lobby now, a player can have a faster car than yours and you don't even know it because the PP is the same.
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under 1.19 or 1.20 I faced a 235hp 900kg 420PPCM AE86 trueno with my 132hp 900kg 420PPCM AE86 Trueno.
A 103hp difference isn't possible anymore.
I think the update is definitely going in the right direction.
 
It definitely has its ups and downs, for sure. Down for not being able to use the Tomahawk in Tokyo anymore, and up for finally not letting players be a bunch of pricks in multiplayer races by bringing pimped out, overpowered hunks of metal.

Some cars also need heavy tuning just to handle well and the wonky PP rating system didn’t help getting it to the right value unless I add ballast and/or power it down.

As for money (which I barely pay attention to because I barely buy any cars), I found myself doing these 30-minute endurances with actual cars lately and I love it.

Then again, the PP rating has always been a mess since GT5.
 
yeah just found this out and now racing against others online is pretty useless. unless you know how to tune a car in the game now and make it faster or better with dialing in those settings, you're guaranteed to lose. I always finished in the top 5 online races and now i'm usually in the lat 2-4 places because everyone else is way faster. and not that they're better drivers, their cars are significantly faster because they've clearly tuned their cars now that it doesn't make a difference to the pp. such a dumb change. it's now made racing in the online races in sport pretty useless.
 
Forget the pp system. How you divine pp? For one is straightline speed power, for other is cornerspeed power. We cant have both. I had 992 in super formula one on my buddylist had 982. he was 0.5 faster then me. Now i have 982 he hase 984 and its still the same. Max pp is not a garantie for quick laptimes. Pp system is not needed.

The only way to get a good tune is try and error and put time and effort in it.

Ps: or turn on Bop…
 
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Mrduder
yeah just found this out and now racing against others online is pretty useless. unless you know how to tune a car in the game now and make it faster or better with dialing in those settings, you're guaranteed to lose. I always finished in the top 5 online races and now i'm usually in the lat 2-4 places because everyone else is way faster. and not that they're better drivers, their cars are significantly faster because they've clearly tuned their cars now that it doesn't make a difference to the pp. such a dumb change. it's now made racing in the online races in sport pretty useless.
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Not sure what you're experiencing but sport mode Daily races and Nations/Manufs are almost always fixed car settings races.
PP rating is not even relevant in sport mode in most events.
As for the open lobbies, it is now much better balanced if you only rely on PP limitations without implementing hp and weight limits.
I'm curious about how you could be experiencing such a drop in race results...
 
Daniel55
So, instead of seeing what I'm doing to the car, now after every change i should go out with the car to see what's changed? This is extremely bad and it is an even bigger exploit than the broken PP system that was before.

If you are in a lobby now, a player can have a faster car than yours and you don't even know it because the PP is the same.
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Even before the update the calculations weren’t accurate. I’ve stiffened the springs, lowered a car, adjusted camber, etc by a couple ticks and the data pointed to lower cornering Gs and PP going down, but on track it was better to drive and I could get more speed out of the car.

I’m not entirely on board with PP calculations being removed from suspension settings (old cars in particular benefit dramatically from lowered and stiffened settings), but it certainly wasn’t working correctly before either. Hopefully this is just a temporary switch to halt exploits (squatted ride heights or Tomahawk-style nerfing), and an improved system of calculation will be implemented later.
 
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