Pro physics on the limit of grip. How often does this happen to you?

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tsuchiya

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Davidrick
Lucas Ordonez, winner of last years TT Academy and now a professional racing driver in real life. Seconds .39 to .50




I think the way the car behaves in that situation, and all of them RWD cars in GT5P seem to be the same, is not too realistic and a bit hard in an unfair way. I mean, if this guy who won GT Academy can´t manage to control the car, who is expected to do it?

It´s obvious there is an issue with the physics when reaching the limit between grip and drift (it was also present in GT4) that must be addressed before the game is launched. What do you guys think?

Regards
 
So what you're saying is that racing drivers never get twitchy, try to correct, oversteer and lose control? Ok.....
 
dave_sz
So what you're saying is that racing drivers never get twitchy, try to correct, oversteer and lose control? Ok.....
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I´m not saying this never happens in real life, I say it doesn´t happen so often (in this lap you can see this happen to the winner of TT academy up to three times).

I think if there were held two races, one in real life and the other one in GT, using this same car, driven by 8 professional drivers for 10 laps in Nürburgring, in real life none or maybe at most one of the drivers would lose control like this and crash his car. In GT, i´m sure all of them would lose control multiple times because of this

Regards.
 
tsuchiya
I´m not saying this never happens in real life, I say it doesn´t happen so often (in this lap you can see this happen to the winner of TT academy up to three times).

I think if there were held two races, one in real life and the other one in GT, using this same car, driven by 8 professional drivers for 10 laps in Nürburgring, in real life none or maybe at most one of the drivers would lose control like this and crash his car. In GT, i´m sure all of them would lose control multiple times because of this

Regards.
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The answer is quite simple. It's a game. He can push as hard as he wants to with no consequences at all. Therefore you see he making more mistakes than he would in real life.
 
Ya when your pushing a vehicle past the limits or yours, your body and its body will tell you, gravity will tell you, and several survival instincts will tell you that you are going too hard.

As we've seen with the TT demo the second you notice your car is stepping out, is most of the time the second you lose control of it.
 
Agree with the OP (once again) they made it way too twitchy IMO, too.
This isn't supposed to be the real skidding simulator without skidmarks, rather a driving simulalator...
(and as I said often before my car doesn't skid around like the cars in GT5/demos :odd: ... not even on ice)


Well then so long I lost most of my interest in this vapourware / picture game anyways.
See you when the next demo rolls out. :p
 
That spin looked legit to me. He was accelerating, hit the brakes, caused some weight shift, he tried to correct it, BUT if you look at the telemetry, he hits the gas as he reaches the top. Even if for a split second, he was already slightly sideways...
 
tsuchiya
I think the way the car behaves in that situation, and all of them RWD cars in GT5P seem to be the same, is not too realistic and a bit hard in an unfair way. I mean, if this guy who won GT Academy can´t manage to control the car, who is expected to do it?

It´s obvious there is an issue with the physics when reaching the limit between grip and drift (it was also present in GT4) that must be addressed before the game is launched. What do you guys think?
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crash with spinout


Spin out but wet


the GT5 version looks pretty natural to me
 
I thought he hit the ripple strip which made the car bounce out of balance. So long as that isn't as pronounced as in fm3 it's ok :p. I've had many a rollover due to the ripple strips in that game.
 
I just got GT5:P this week and found the physics pretty arcadey compared to the Time Trail, even on Pro, and pretty easy to recover any spin, it's just that the feedback and FFB on the wheel is terrible, even worse than Enthusia, and GT4! Infact, GT4 feels better!
Thankfully the Time Trial is better, and GT5 will be better yet

So with hardly any feedback you just end up losing control like that. And without G Forces your more likely to plant full throttle without a care

One thing though, if GT4 is any indication, all cars will feel and act differently with a wheel. Not all FR and MR cars are insta spin devices in GT4 on the limit. Take out a Shelby Cobra and you can drift that thing so easily and steer it on the throttle :)
Ford GT = snap oversteer, GT40 progressive etc
 
phosphor112
That spin looked legit to me. He was accelerating, hit the brakes, caused some weight shift, he tried to correct it, BUT if you look at the telemetry, he hits the gas as he reaches the top. Even if for a split second, he was already slightly sideways...
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Yeah looks more like a car suspension setup issue more than driving physics issue.
 
FOOZZY
I thought he hit the ripple strip which made the car bounce out of balance. So long as that isn't as pronounced as in fm3 it's ok :p. I've had many a rollover due to the ripple strips in that game.
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Oh god... The amount of roll over in Forza 3 is just ridiculous. You will flip for no bloody reason what so ever, and when you did, you bounced like 100 times in the slowest manner.
 
Of course it's harder in the game. You can't feel the G forces through your body so you gotta pay extra attention to the behavior of the vehicle.
 
tsuchiya
Lucas Ordonez, winner of last years TT Academy and now a professional racing driver in real life. Seconds .39 to .50

I think the way the car behaves in that situation, and all of them RWD cars in GT5P seem to be the same, is not too realistic and a bit hard in an unfair way. I mean, if this guy who won GT Academy can´t manage to control the car, who is expected to do it?

It´s obvious there is an issue with the physics when reaching the limit between grip and drift (it was also present in GT4) that must be addressed before the game is launched. What do you guys think?

Regards
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Right, so you see one driver make one mistake, and you assume that's that. The physics must be so out of line that even the best-of-the-best can't handle it, because they never, ever make mistakes... :rolleyes:

Do you really think that 100% of his virtual lap times were/are flawless each and every single time?
 
Jarmo
Of course it's harder in the game. You can't feel the G forces through your body so you gotta pay extra attention to the behavior of the vehicle.
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I think the same, he hit the rumble strip so the car "jump" and loose too much contact with the asphalt so it spin out.

Besides, i never know if this kind of question goes to GT5P forum, GT5TT forum, or GT5 forum :confused:
 
I think people are much more aggressive with video games.
I can guarantee you I could drive the 'Nurb in GT5 and not crash, while still being fairly close to the limit, the catch comes in when you really push it, because face it, in real life you don't push as hard or as far.
 
phosphor112
Oh god... The amount of roll over in Forza 3 is just ridiculous. You will flip for no bloody reason what so ever, and when you did, you bounced like 100 times in the slowest manner.
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False you NEVER flip for no reason.
 
CoolColJ
...it's just that the feedback and FFB on the wheel is terrible...So with hardly any feedback you just end up losing control like that. And without G Forces your more likely to plant full throttle without a care...
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DING DING DING!!! I think we have winner! :)

The lack of centrifugal forces on your body and lack of input from one's inner ear, will always make it (more) difficult to truly know when you're approaching the limit in any given situation on a racing sim as opposed to when you're driving a real car and have the benefit of this extra stimuli. When people say you tend to drive faster in a racing sim than you would in real life because there's no fear that you're going to have an accident, I believe this is true. But it's also because in real life, if you sense that you're already in trouble in a particular situation, you're not going to dig deeper, you're going to back off.

So I guess in a sense, you could say, "YES", TT was a bit too twitchy when approaching the limit because it doesn't offer enough feedback as to when you're approaching that limit. But I don't know if that's really the game's fault. My preference would be to have a bit more feel and sense of understeer and oversteer from the wheel.
 
Leadfoot53
One thing to consider is that he has NEVER driven on the Ring in real life...
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The Green Hell isnt as bad as people say, its a myth in my opinion.
- The only reason for the reputation is idiot motorcyclists who decide to ride like there's no tomorrow, and that's exactly what they get.

Challenging?, yes, dangerous? - not at all.

I totally agree with tsuchiya, the physics on this video of Lucas are totally incorrect, it looks like he's hit a patch of ice, or is aqua-planing, with no feedback the car is about to ditch off the track.
- I've experienced this a number of times in GT4/GT5:P/GTPSP

I've done 140-150mph through that section in my real, mildly tuned roadcar (240hp RWD), yet never had any hint of sudden loss of grip!!

This is definitely something I think PD should work on, I personally regard this as a bug / inaccuracy.
 
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tsuchiya
I think the way the car behaves in that situation, and all of them RWD cars in GT5P seem to be the same, is not too realistic and a bit hard in an unfair way. I mean, if this guy who won GT Academy can´t manage to control the car, who is expected to do it?

It´s obvious there is an issue with the physics when reaching the limit between grip and drift (it was also present in GT4) that must be addressed before the game is launched. What do you guys think? Regards
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Like said before, he pushes much harder than in real life and that's a huge difference. Furthermore, i think that on this demo the 370z is equipped with N3 tyres ; in real life, it comes with Bridgestone RE050A, good sport tyres that would correspond to at least S2 in the game. Handling would be much better with S2 or S3 !
 
[UK] ANDYW;3804749
The Green Hell isnt as bad as people say, its a myth in my opinion.
- The only reason for the reputation is idiot motorcyclists who decide to ride like there's no tomorrow, and that's exactly what they get.

Challenging?, yes, dangerous? - not at all.

I totally agree with tsuchiya, the physics on this video of Lucas are totally incorrect, it looks like he's hit a patch of ice, or is aqua-planing, with no feedback the car is about to ditch off the track.
- I've experienced this a number of times in GT4/GT5:P/GTPSP

I've done 140-150mph through that section in my real, mildly tuned roadcar (240hp RWD), yet never had any hint of sudden loss of grip!!

This is definitely something I think PD should work on, I personally regard this as a bug / inaccuracy.
Click to expand...

It's quite obvious from the video that he was slightly off-line and trying to move over to the left to hit the proper line. Brain flub... wide shoes... whatever... cause him to mash the brakes in (see the red line that blips in on the display right before he starts sawing away a the wheel?) while making that correction (and that's a bumpy area), which upsets the balance of the car and puts him into a spin.
 
The crash seems realistic in my eyes. You might be able go faster in that corner, but he hit the rumble strip too hard and the car got out of balance. Thats why many drivers try to stay away from the rumblestrips on the Nurburgring.

@ANDYW:
This is a pretty fast section of the Nurburgring, but this corner is one of the most demanding corners in my book. I don't think you took that corner with more tan 100 mph. Even the driver, that drove the Official 7:26.4 Record in a Corvette ZR1, drove through the corner with about 120mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o
 
You would never take that corner at that speed in real life... people arent even full throttle when coming up to that hill and brake for the crest.
 
Most likely a combination of driver error, poor GT5 FBB effects, and input lag. Just watch the people at game show demos that can't even drive the car straight line - they oscillate back and forth until they're off the road. Same thing is happening in the OP's video to some extent and you can't blame that on the driver.

I think sony and pd took notice and are (hopefully) working to make the FFB and wheel delay better. Just watch this poor kid try to drive straight:

 
cschoei
Most likely a combination of driver error, poor GT5 FBB effects, and input lag. Just watch the people at game show demos that can't even drive the car straight line - they oscillate back and forth until they're off the road. Same thing is happening in the OP's video to some extent and you can't blame that on the driver.

I think sony and pd took notice and are (hopefully) working to make the FFB and wheel delay better. Just watch this poor kid try to drive straight:

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I think it's more because he can't feel the G forces. I mean from one G to the left to one G to the right back and forth would make you slow down in real life.

Plus many of these people completely forget how to drive a car when they take a seat in front of the screen. Some people are going in corners with full throttle, second gear and steering wheel turned all the way. Everyone with some sense knows that is not going to end well.
 

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