Pro physics on the limit of grip. How often does this happen to you?

[Bandit6]

Most likely a combination of driver error, poor GT5 FBB effects, and input lag. Just watch the people at game show demos that can't even drive the car straight line - they oscillate back and forth until they're off the road. Same thing is happening in the OP's video to some extent and you can't blame that on the driver.

I think sony and pd took notice and are (hopefully) working to make the FFB and wheel delay better. Just watch this poor kid try to drive straight:

But the kid is going wild on the wheel as well. Its the classic problem when inexperienced players play with a wheel, they over react with every attempt to straighten out. If you look at his first movements when he takes control off the pit lane its all over the place.

 

[myke6699]

He hit the curb- at the Nordschleife the curb is quite high and that unsettled the car, putting more weight to one side or one of the tire and at high speed, that's enough to cause the car to spin. That section- Schwedenkreuz- is quite tricky. You coming off a fast descent, then ascending at high speed, a wide right hand turn in which you have to start braking before facing the hairpin at Aremberg. People have a tendency to go too fast. And the slick tire on the tuned 370Z is not as forgiving as most people think- slick tires don't break progressively and in combination with the stiff suspension and at the speed he was going there is little chance for recovery.

Go Youtube and a do a search on accident or crash and Schwedenkreuz and you can find accident the replicate Lucas'.

 

[tsuchiya]

But the kid is going wild on the wheel as well. Its the classic problem when inexperienced players play with a wheel, they over react with every attempt to straighten out. If you look at his first movements when he takes control off the pit lane its all over the place.

That´s it. This kid over reacts with every attempt to straighten out. It´s the same that happens to everybody because the wheel feedback makes you feel like you have to do this. You may say that is because the kid is a noob but, as you can see in the op, it happens to lucas ordonez a lot of times in 1 lap. Thats what isnt normal.

And really, what we are talking here is not about making it easier to drive on the limit, but making it fair. If the wheel sends you correct feedback and you can´t manage to recover control. on the car, you may crash but it was fair.

If the wheel sends you wrong feedback about how much you should countersteer and because of that you crash, that´s not fair.

Regards.

 

[Spagetti69]

In the spirit of your post, did that make you feel better? Must be great knowing how superior you are to everybody else.

Yes and no.

 

[niky]

That´s it. This kid over reacts with every attempt to straighten out. It´s the same that happens to everybody because the wheel feedback makes you feel like you have to do this. You may say that is because the kid is a noob but, as you can see in the op, it happens to lucas ordonez a lot of times in 1 lap. Thats what isnt normal.

And really, what we are talking here is not about making it easier to drive on the limit, but making it fair. If the wheel sends you correct feedback and you can´t manage to recover control. on the car, you may crash but it was fair.

If the wheel sends you wrong feedback about how much you should countersteer and because of that you crash, that´s not fair.

Regards.

Whether or not the wheel sends you the correct feedback, it's all for naught if your butt doesn't.

Most cars today have even less feedback through the wheel than the Driving Force Pro. Thanks to electrohydraulic and even fully electric steering racks, steering feel has gone mostly to pot. But you can still countersteer them. The moment you feel the change in the car's attitude as the tail starts to sweep wide, you know you have to catch it, and you automatically apply a dose of opposite lock.

This is all without any steering feedback whatsoever. A wheel will give you some feedback, but it's only going to tell you that your front tires are loaded/unloaded... not what the rear end of the car is doing. By the time it tugs and tells you it's time to countersteer, the rear end is arcing out... and in cases like this, where the driver is in a high speed corner, by the time it's moving sideways, it's almost impossible to catch.

You don't get that seat-of-the-pants feel with a simulator. In a simulator, you're reacting mostly to what you see on screen... and by the time you can actually see the drift, it's too late.

 

[Raitziger]

You don't get that seat-of-the-pants feel with a simulator. In a simulator, you're reacting mostly to what you see on screen... and by the time you can actually see the drift, it's too late.

Games like LFS anf rfactor give you enough feedback to catch slides and physics allow realistic drifts. And of course you can get yourself a buttkicker

 

[machschnel]

DING DING DING!!! I think we have winner!

The lack of centrifugal forces on your body and lack of input from one's inner ear, will always make it (more) difficult to truly know when you're approaching the limit in any given situation on a racing sim as opposed to when you're driving a real car and have the benefit of this extra stimuli. When people say you tend to drive faster in a racing sim than you would in real life because there's no fear that you're going to have an accident, I believe this is true. But it's also because in real life, if you sense that you're already in trouble in a particular situation, you're not going to dig deeper, you're going to back off.

So I guess in a sense, you could say, "YES", TT was a bit too twitchy when approaching the limit because it doesn't offer enough feedback as to when you're approaching that limit. But I don't know if that's really the game's fault. My preference would be to have a bit more feel and sense of understeer and oversteer from the wheel.

But this poses a very important question - If the feedback we are given in game is unreliable at best (essentially, not realistic), what level of simulation physics wise do we want? Wouldn't having a game were the physics are 100% realistic, but the feedback not kind of defeat the purpose of the game? How can you drive what(depending on how good the physics get) amounts to a real car, without real-world feedback? One to ponder for sure.

 

[[UK] ANDYW]

The crash seems realistic in my eyes. You might be able go faster in that corner, but he hit the rumble strip too hard and the car got out of balance. Thats why many drivers try to stay away from the rumblestrips on the Nurburgring.

@ANDYW:
This is a pretty fast section of the Nurburgring, but this corner is one of the most demanding corners in my book. I don't think you took that corner with more tan 100 mph. Even the driver, that drove the Official 7:26.4 Record in a Corvette ZR1, drove through the corner with about 120mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o

You must be right!! Refreshing my memory of how rough that section is (from your video link) .. It must have been the straight leading up to this section where I was hitting 140ish .. not at the corner.

It doesnt look half as bad in GT5 (probably what skewed my memory)

Admittedly, watching Lucas' spin over and over actually looks pretty well simulated, but I guess this isnt what I was commenting on, there are definitely times where the cars go 'light' at speed and bin off the road in a seemingly unrealistic way.

As other people have commented, perhaps this is the restriction of feedback thats possible through sixaxis/wheel.. where its physically correct, but you just cant 'feel' it happening.

 

[zed300]

Lucas applys the brake and the rear locks and points him at the curb, he gets off the brake and tries to get the car settled, but he's too late. The curb comes up as he is loading the inside front and the suspension has nothing left, so it releases it's tension and pushes him away from the corner. He, again tries to correct and the back comes around.

Nothing wrong with those physics IMO.

 

[jjaisli]

But this poses a very important question - If the feedback we are given in game is unreliable at best (essentially, not realistic), what level of simulation physics wise do we want? Wouldn't having a game were the physics are 100% realistic, but the feedback not kind of defeat the purpose of the game? How can you drive what(depending on how good the physics get) amounts to a real car, without real-world feedback? One to ponder for sure.

I think the important point is that increasing or exaggerating the feedback from the wheel does not necessarily have anything to do with altering the game's physics. It's simply clueing you in to what the car is doing and how it's tires are interacting with the road BEFORE you start spinning or understeer off the road. Some cars in the real world, thank goodness, still give a tremendous amount of feedback. But as others have pointed out, many modern cars don't. But given the choice, and compared to other games that I think do a superior job in this particular area, I hope PD decides to increase the FFB accordingly.

 

[Jarmo]

I think the important point is that increasing or exaggerating the feedback from the wheel does not necessarily have anything to do with altering the game's physics. It's simply clueing you in to what the car is doing and how it's tires are interacting with the road BEFORE you start spinning or understeer off the road. Some cars in the real world, thank goodness, still give a tremendous amount of feedback. But as others have pointed out, many modern cars don't. But given the choice, and compared to other games that I think do a superior job in this particular area, I hope PD decides to increase the FFB accordingly.

That's exactly why I prefer driving our older Peugeot 206 over 607 because I can feel the 206 more. The gas and clutch pedals for example have very little mechanical feel to them in the 607.

 

[RedBaron]

The gas and clutch pedals for example have very little mechanical feel to them in the 607.

You can surely feel things through the steering if it's mechanically joined and just assisted by hydraulic power steering. You can also feel the mechanical rotation and tension in clutch pedal and brake pedal pressure as well but what feel should gas pedal have other than spring which returns it back to default position?

 

[Jarmo]

You can surely feel things through the steering if it's mechanically joined and just assisted by hydraulic power steering. You can also feel the mechanical rotation and tension in clutch pedal and brake pedal pressure as well but what feel should gas pedal have other than spring which returns it back to default position?

I can't quite explain the gas pedal feeling. It somehow feels that it isn't connected to anything and the resistance doesn't change as you push it down.

With the clutch you can barely feel the threshold of connection. It isn't as important though because the car is pretty hard to stall compared to 206.

Also it is a much bigger car than 206 so that takes away the feel of connection too.

Edit: Plus I think the car has a super heavy flywheel as a little throttle blip hardly does anything to the revs.

 

[machschnel]

That's exactly why I prefer driving our older Peugeot 206 over 607 because I can feel the 206 more. The gas and clutch pedals for example have very little mechanical feel to them in the 607.

So would a race car have even less feedback? It stands to reason that if later model cars have less feedback due to the increasing technology etc. race car's, usually on the cutting edge as far as tech goes, would have even less. Is that true? Anyone driven a race car that can shed some light on this?

 

[niky]

Supposedly, according to some road-tests by magazine writers, racecars have terrible steering feel.

Sticky tires degrade steering feel, as does power steering... both of which are present on modern-day racecars.

 

[ismellbacon611]

not only is this the only time he has raced on the ring in gt5 but never raced their in real life either. and as jeremy clarkson once said you will never go as fast in a real car as you do in a game due to fear. becuase he wasn't really in a life threatening situation and wasn't really feeling the forces of the car (other than amazing force feedback affects) he's going to drive much faster and make plenty of mistakes..... if it was real life and it was his first try he would (probably) never crash. and the reason he didn't save the spin isn't because of gt5's physics (their the best of the best for a console racer even beating some pc sims) its because he was playing the game and wasn't to serious about it otherwise he would spin the wheel the other way much faster than he did. like drifting in the gt5 tt you would really almost break the wheel in order to save a spin or keep a drift and with a stock car thats really how it works. (drift cars are set up to slide easier and have slick tires so they require less effort to keep on the track). gt5 physics the best reason he spins going too fast and not trying as hard as he could to keep the car on the road . Can't wait to drift the whole ring in a toyota ae 86!!!

 

[cicohipe]

@ismellbacon611 - Your quoting Jeremy Clarkson about racing? Really?!?

OT: As others have eluded to, because its a game you don't have the same amount of feel as if you were really there, does that mean they should dumb down the physics? Well i suppose thats called "Standard" isn't it.

 

[Dave A]

@ismellbacon611 - Your quoting Jeremy Clarkson about racing? Really?!?

He might not be the pinnacle of informative motoring journalism but he does happen to have a hell of a lot more experience than you and me at driving fast cars on a track. If he was saying things that more experienced drivers than him were dissagreeing with then I'd generally side with the more experienced driver, but what he said hasn't been dissagreed with. Just because the majorty of what he presents about cars is in a laid back general entertainment focused format doesn't mean that he isn't capable of making a serious comment or can't ever have a valid opinion on related matters.

 

[eSZee]

I love Clarkson, but to this day he still has no clue how a DYNO works, so in my book, he doesn't know anything about anything.

 

[machschnel]

@ismellbacon611 - Your quoting Jeremy Clarkson about racing? Really?!?

OT: As others have eluded to, because its a game you don't have the same amount of feel as if you were really there, does that mean they should dumb down the physics? Well i suppose thats called "Standard" isn't it.

This has really got me thinking now.......... I feel that feedback levels will never reach realistic levels (I know there are some pretty high end cockpits out there, but a cheap track car would be a better option in my opinion). In saying this, the physics I think can reach very realistic levels ON PAPER. Lacking a proper feedback system the most realistic physics will still feel off

 

[tsuchiya]

In GT5, when your rear wheels lose grip you are almost guaranteed to spin out of the road. In comparison, controlling a real car in that situation seems almost too easy:







Regards

 

[stevetam]

In GT5, when your rear wheels lose grip you are almost guaranteed to spin out of the road. In comparison, controlling a real car in that situation seems almost too easy:

Regards

your video evidence doesn't point to controlling a drift to be easy - in fact you picked the better drifter who know how to initiate and control a drift. Of course they know how to drift and control the back coming out. They aren't the average GT player. Even when you look at the top drift and TT GT5P replays they control the slide very well



You can tell it shouldn't be easy to control the back. Orido, Tsuchiya and Iida have no trouble drifting because they can control it and they have EXPERIENCE. Now look at 4:46, Juiichi Wakisaka, part of the GT500 Super Essoflow Supra Team. Can't control the back and spins out frequently. In fact that is how GT5 TT behaved. Too fast and bumps cause a spin out, and lack of speed and momentum shift cause the understeer you see Wakisaka experience.

Now back on topic, with respect to Lucas Ordonez, he has limited experience on the track and I'm 99% sure he's never driven around the ring once. To control it like a pro, you really have to feel the forces and understand the proper reaction. Otherwise you are going to spin out.

 

[niky]

In GT5, when your rear wheels lose grip you are almost guaranteed to spin out of the road. In comparison, controlling a real car in that situation seems almost too easy:

I agree with stevetam... it's easy when you're an experienced drifter... and you're initiating those drifts. But if you're not: and I'd wonder whether you'd actually done any high-speed drifting on the racetrack (not the low speed parking-lot stuff), and if it catches you by surprise, it's another thing entirely.

Let's set this clear: There's a big difference between intentionally upsetting a car going into a corner in order to initiate a drift and hitting a bump or getting lock-up under braking and having the car start to fishtail into it.

In the former, you expect the car to break loose, and already have a dab of oppo dialed in when the rear end starts to arc wide, or have it dialed in in your head, only awaiting that tugging at your backside and fingertips to complete the circuit.

-

If it happens when you're not pushing the car into it... how easily you can catch it depends on the speed, the tires, the type of car you're driving and the situation in general. If it's a lower speed corner and you still have plenty of front-end grip left and you've got a front-driver or an AWD, you can countersteer (take your time... no rush... ) and mash on the gas and the car will straighten out, easy-peasy. If it's rear-wheel drive, don't mash anything (or lift)... just counter and trust your instincts.

If it's a slight drift due to letting off in a corner, and you're not going too fast (say just 80-100 km/h), no biggie... the steering will (usually) kick-back and nudge you in the right direction... take it easy on the pedals and you're back on line, just two or three meters wide. If you've got a front or four-driver, you can let it drift out further and then catch it on the throttle for kudos points... if you're in a rear-driver, you can tease the throttle to hold the angle longer.

If you recover too slowly, or over-recover, you can have the car fishtailing into the weeds.

If it happens at 160 km/h or over, or the car is well and truly sideways and you don't have the reflexes of Kimi Raikkonen or Jason Plato:


Wrap your arms around your shoulders (don't break your thumbs on the steering wheel, baby) and kiss your behind goodbye.

-

I've experienced all of the above... caught some of them... and the last one was well and truly a learning experience. You have a road-car go sideways on you at 160 km/h (100 mph) due to a locked brake, a patch of oil or a bump in the road, and you're at a 90 degeree angle in the blink of an eye. And at a 180 degree angle in two blinks... and at a 270 degree angle in... well... let's just say that while drifting is exhilirating fun... spinning is not.

 

[tsuchiya]

your video evidence doesn't point to controlling a drift to be easy - in fact you picked the better drifter who know how to initiate and control a drift. Of course they know how to drift and control the back coming out. They aren't the average GT player. Even when you look at the top drift and TT GT5P replays they control the slide very well

The thing is I don´t think even Keiichi Tsuchiya himself could make that mercedes drift in GT5 with a Driving force GT and pro physics. It seems really hard. I have a Driving force pro and I love it, but when it comes to drifting in GT5 the feedback is terrible. I´ve drifted in other games (GT3, Battle Gear 3, Enthusia, Richard Burns Rally, Live for Speed, Rfactor, etc...) with no problem, but GT5 is really the hardest and I think it´s because of the poor wheel feedback when the car switches its behaviour between grip and drift.

In the real life videos we both quoted, you can see how drivers in real life apply little strength and, at times, even release the wheel while drifting, and the wheel automatically goes to where it should to get the car back straight. If you do the same in GT5, you will spin from one side to the other till you lose control.

Maybe my problem is simply that I need to update to a G25-27, but I´m not rich and it´s a bit frustrating since DFP seems to be OK for every other game.

 

[niky]

You're talking about the Merc SL55?

The big, understeery barge that understeers because... it's a big, understeery barge? (which just happens to not be in any of those non-GT games you cited...)

Battle Gear is an arcade game. GT3 was fairly realistic, but ridiculously... ridiculously easy to drift in. Richard Burns Rally... there's a difference between low-grip rally stages and rally cars designed to go sideways and a road car on a racetrack... Enthusia? Lovely little game... pretty realistic for its time, but also very easy to drift in.

 

[tsuchiya]

You're talking about the Merc SL55?

The big, understeery barge that understeers because... it's a big, understeery barge? (which just happens to not be in any of those non-GT games you cited...)

Well, I´m not talking about the behaviour of one car. It´s all or most of GT rwd cars which are difficult to drift with.

Anyway, the car I was talking about is the SLS in Nürburgring demo.

Battle Gear is an arcade game. GT3 was fairly realistic, but ridiculously... ridiculously easy to drift in. Richard Burns Rally... there's a difference between low-grip rally stages and rally cars designed to go sideways and a road car on a racetrack... Enthusia? Lovely little game... pretty realistic for its time, but also very easy to drift in.

Yeah, so it isn´t that latest GT5 is hard to drift in but that it is too easy in every other game and in real life. Ok. It´s like that joke about one guy who was driving opposite direction in the highway and heard in the radio about a mad man driving counter direction, and he says "One mad man? There are dozens!"

 

[niky]

The question is:

Have you drifted in real life?

Not "handbrake-in-the-parking-lot" or "sliding-in-the-rain" drifting but honest-to-goodness 160 km/h "oh-manure-on-a-stick" stuff?

If drifting were "easy" in real-life, everybody would be doing it... and the mountain passes in Japan wouldn't be lined by dented and broken railing at the most popular touge run spots.

Now I'm pretty quick on the track... not as fast as a pro, but I'd bet on myself to land within the top three with any group of amateurs who don't race on a regular basis... but I don't find high speed drifting easy... at all.

 

[Raitziger]

Drifting is not easy but it is not also unrealisticly hard what it was in academy demo.

 

[stevetam]

It think the problem with the GT5 demo was that the stock 370Z had 7 Traction control on and the tuned 370Z had racing slicks on. I was disappointed that they did crank up the TC up for the stock car because it always stopped in mid drift...

 

[JDMKING13]

It think the problem with the GT5 demo was that the stock 370Z had 7 Traction control on and the tuned 370Z had racing slicks on. I was disappointed that they did crank up the TC up for the stock car because it always stopped in mid drift...

👍 I agree 100% If you watch Bestmotoring Tsuchiya does drift test with the 350Z and when the TC is on he cannot finish the drift because the TC kicks in.