Problem with acceleration around corners

[Motor City Hami]

My personal beleif and method is that you should tune the LSD Initial the highest amount possible, WITHOUT receiving any detriments to turning ability. If you experience less turn-in or a lack of mid-corner rotation, those are both things I consider handling detriments, that negatively effect your ability to turn. Also known as understeer. If you experience these things, then you went too high with the Initial Setting, and you should go back to your previous setting, where those issues did not exist. Begin with low numbers and work your way up, until you find the breaking point. (Target range is usually between 7-20)

Thus I'll repeat. Use the highest setting possible WITHOUT hindering your maneuverability. If your turning is hindered, then you didn't listen; it's that simple. (Although there will be tracks where small sacrifices in turning ability, will still show increased lap times, due to a track being dominated by specific types of turns, where it would make sense, to sacrifice maneuverability in 2-3 turns, to gain an advantage in 5-6 turns.)

Now that wording, I can agree with. You are correct - we end up in nearly the same place. The only thing that I was taking issue with was the wording that higher numbers increase acceleration. It only increases acceleration if one wheel spins first, which is the job of the LSD Accel.

As I understand the LSD, having lower values of acceleration allows the rear wheels on these hypercars to rotate more independently of one another at different speeds, meaning that the LSD won't suddenly lock both back wheels and make the back overtake the front when you apply the throttle. The initial torque for me (as for many others) defines how much power/torque is needed to make the LSD lock the wheels.

I don't understand 5/5/5. It is NOT faster than a properly tuned LSD even in these high powered monsters. The inside wheel will spin first and you will still have to baby the throttle to get the car off the corner. Those tuning 5/5/5 are basically giving up on truly understanding the LSD and trying to compensate with other suspension settings to find rear grip.

 

[trackripper123]

I don't understand 5/5/5. It is NOT faster than a properly tuned LSD even in these high powered monsters. The inside wheel will spin first and you will still have to baby the throttle to get the car off the corner. Those tuning 5/5/5 are basically giving up on truly understanding the LSD and trying to compensate with other suspension settings to find rear grip.

Never said 5/5/5 was the fastest way my friend, what I meant was that lower numbers on those hypercars tend to help match the wheelspin of both back wheels so that both lose grip at the same time. And inside wheelspin is generally more controllable than outside wheelspin.

 

[Johnnypenso]

From whom, out of curiosity.

Uh oh a quiz!!!

You and Hami mostly, and your exchange ironing out the semantics of your positions on LSD. Unless something is really basic and simple, I usually need all the nitty gritty details of something to really understand how it works,and you guys provided that. 👍

 

[kleefton]

I have to agree with adrenaline in that higher initial settings make you faster around a turn in some cars. The 370z is a very good example of this. That car in my opinion naturally understeers too much and is practically impossible to oversteer. But it seems to like a 60/60/5 lsd combo the best. With the fully locked diff it just seems to grip a whole lot better on corner exit and this generates substantially faster lap times at almost any track, even though there is plenty of understeer present mid corner. You r all welcome to test this because god knows i found this out after hours of trying different settings.

 

[bigbear]

I believe that to get the most out of a car you must specifically tune the LSD to account for all the variables; track, tyres, suspension, controller, and driving style can all affect your optimum setting. This is just one of many reasons why LSD tuning is debatable and hard to understand. After months of reading through these forums I'm left with one big question.

What causes outside wheelspin in GT5?
(Edit: Why does high Accel cause outside wheelspin?)

My simple understanding of things states that the inside wheels lose grip, due to body roll, when turning through a corner. This should make the inside wheel the most likely to spin even with a fairly high percentage of lock. At 50% lock each wheel maintains 25% of the available torque and the other 50% is free to go where it please. So the inside wheel can recieve up to 75% of available torque. Unless I've missed the plot entirely, the inside wheel should be the most likely to spin unless both tyres spin.

Going back to my question I wonder if the tyre model has something to do with outside wheelspin. In GT5 softer compound tyres have more grip but react more violently when pushed past their limit. In similar fashion the outside tyre has more grip and reacts just as spectacularly destabilizing the car. What actually causes outside wheelspin? Is it the LSD, the tyre model, or both?

As far as describing LSD function I think perhaps a given setting can be both stable and unstable depending on if the limit of grip is maintained or exceeded. A high setting like 60/60/30 may be very stable and give understeer when at the limit but will react violently when pushed past the limit. This causes the appearance of instability and more confusion.

Theoretically:
- An open Diff. (0% lock) should be agile at the limit but stable past the limit because the outside wheel has lots of grip and anchors the car while the inside wheel spins freely doing nothing.

- A locked Diff. (100% lock) should be stable at the limit but unstable past the limit because both wheels spin causing the back end to kick out.

- A LSD (50% lock or so) should give a good balance between agility and stability at all times.

The two faces of these settings make understanding differential performance difficult, and make simple explanations debatable. I also feel there is possibly some flaw in the physics engine, causing excessive outside wheelspin, that makes the situation all the more muddled.

 

[Adrenaline]

What causes outside wheelspin in GT5?

LSD Acceleration Sensitivity being too high.

You can make any claim you like about tire models, or any other potential reason causing it, but I'm willing to bet, that on just about every car in the game, you can avoid outside tire spin, but nuking the LSD Accel setting to 5. (Assuming the Initial/Braking aren't unreasonable values either)

 

[CSLACR]

As I understand the LSD, having lower values of acceleration allows the rear wheels on these hypercars to rotate more independently of one another at different speeds, meaning that the LSD won't suddenly lock both back wheels and make the back overtake the front when you apply the throttle. The initial torque for me (as for many others) defines how much power/torque is needed to make the LSD lock the wheels.

Spot on, imo.

 

[Motor City Hami]

LSD Acceleration Sensitivity being too high.

You can make any claim you like about tire models, or any other potential reason causing it, but I'm willing to bet, that on just about every car in the game, you can avoid outside tire spin, but nuking the LSD Accel setting to 5. (Assuming the Initial/Braking aren't unreasonable values either)

100% agree. And a setting of 5 should produce inside wheel spin.

 

[bigbear]

100% agree. And a setting of 5 should produce inside wheel spin.

Unless you're driving a Shelby GT350R which as far as I can tell never spins its inside wheel. But thats just a strange exception.

I understand that high accel produces outside wheelspin and that lowering accel eliminates it.
But my question is why does it happen at all. I think it's the biggest cause of confusion concerning LSD tuning. Higher LSD numbers should make the car more stable ,but it generally doesn't work this way because of outside spin.

 

[Adrenaline]

As I understand the LSD, having lower values of acceleration allows the rear wheels on these hypercars to rotate more independently of one another at different speeds, meaning that the LSD won't suddenly lock both back wheels and make the back overtake the front when you apply the throttle.

Spot on, imo.

I've been contemplating whether to even bring this up...

Can either of you re-iterate this point, to make sure I'm reading it correctly, before I decide to say I disagree. The main concern I'm having is that you appear to be speaking of the 'acceleration' value, in which I've always believed to have zero effect on 'when the LSD locks both back wheels' and also the statement that 'lower values' allow tires 'more rotation independently of one another', because in my experience an acceleration setting of 60, allows the outside tire to 'rotate' just as independently(if not more) than a setting of 5 allows the inside tire to.

So... hopefully I'm misinterpreting, otherwise I feel I completely disagree with you both.

 

[CSLACR]

Well it's inside/both/outside, from 5/30/60, respectively. I just don't think about the high end because I think it's generally silly to run it there.

 

[lldantell]

Are you kidding me? You're going to sit there and critisize the forums foremost LSD tuner. You make me laugh, lol. I've tried your tunes, you yourself don't have a complete understanding of the LSD and you're going to critique an experienced tuner. Funny stuff.

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

 

[trackripper123]

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

*facepalm*

 

[Motor City Hami]

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

First - nice replying to a comment that was made two weeks ago.

Second - you are either on about me or Adrenaline. Both of us have won FITT tuner challenges and both of us have been active in the GTPlanet tuning forums since the beginning. If you want to talk with this much bravado, come back when you have more credibility. I think Adrenaline and I have what four FITT Tuner Challenge wins between us?

 

[lldantell]

First - nice replying to a comment that was made two weeks ago.

Second - you are either on about me or Adrenaline. Both of us have won FITT tuner challenges and both of us have been active in the GTPlanet tuning forums since the beginning. If you want to talk with this much bravado, come back when you have more credibility. I think Adrenaline and I have what four FITT Tuner Challenge wins between us?

I was talking about adrenaline

 

[trackripper123]

I was talking about adrenaline

Still doesn't make your comment legit in any way.

 

[VTiRoj]

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

Saying that the amount of tunes someone has published shows how experienced they are doesn't sound right either. By your logic, if one were to spam-tune 20 cars a day, within 2 weeks they'd be the most experienced tuner on the forums.

 

[Onboy123]

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

It's not that we think he's experienced. We know for a fact that he's one of the most experienced guys around. And I can also safely say he's among the most dedicated tuners here. Us lot normally just jump in a car, make adjustments, give it a final shakedown and if it passes that, we post the tune. Adrenaline goes through every single tune available for the car before making his own adjustments. If that level of attention to detail hasn't given him some form of experience, I don't know what will.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

Lol, you kill me. First of all, they both are my friends and Hami is the one that taught me about tuning, over a year ago. He also wrote a very good LSD guide, which I am sure you yourself have used. Oh, need I mention he also races in real life.

Adrenalin is also a very good tuner with much testing under his belt. He has done alot for the tuning community so he should not be discredited either.

You need to learn that its not the number of tunes a person has, but the quality. You are a good example. This may be a bit hard for you to take and not a personal attack on you in any way, just some constructive advice. You rattle off tunes like crazy and the ones I've tested just arn't that great. Just because you have a ton of tunes in your garage, doesn't mean you are some great tuner. (Praiano and others are an exception.) You really need to gain more credibility and know the person you are talking about before you go critisizing anyone. I have seen you do this before. Also, in regards to your last comment: You don't have to be a member of these forums to know alot about them. The main thing being a member gets you is the ability to post. You can be a non-member and still know alot about these forums just by reading. Yet another mistake made by you in assuming new people know little about these forums. Again, nothing personal, just pointing some things out to you.

 

[krenkme]

Saying that the amount of tunes someone has published shows how experienced they are doesn't sound right either. By your logic, if one were to spam-tune 20 cars a day, within 2 weeks they'd be the most experienced tuner on the forums.

Yahoo! I'm the most experienced tuner on the forums ... sorry... I couldn't pass that one up

 

[Onboy123]

Yahoo! I'm the most experienced tuner on the forums ... sorry... I couldn't pass that one up

Noo…because I'm lazy and never post any of my tunes that I use for shootouts, I must be a total newb!!! Despite the fact that some of these tunes have come in the top three, I'm still just a newb because I don't post them!!!

I couldn't resist that either.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I raise my hand as the Ultimate Noob Tuner. I have posted a grand total of 3 tunes and that's only because I entered 3 F.I.T.T. events...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I am a bad tuner, yeah I know, all my tune entry on FITT are either tried to kill the driver or made the car even harder to handle, but they sure are fun in a cruel kind of way

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I raise my hand as the Ultimate Noob Tuner. I have posted a grand total of 3 tunes and that's only because I entered 3 F.I.T.T. events...

No, I am the ultimate noob tuner. I don't even have a garage, lol. We just won't mention all the tunes I've posted in the Seasonal and TT threads.

 

[iainoflo85]

I have to say this thread has been a joy to read - from the very first few posts, about someone wanting to know about LSD's on a Viper, to a Pescarolo and then you don't see him posting again in his own thread because of a heated debate between Adrenaline and Hami, then Dante interjects with a completely reversed opinion and this just makes me laugh, his naivete later on as well is exceptional.

As Johnny has said as well I have learned more from this thread about tuning LSD's than from the LSD thread here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=203009 because both Hami and Adrenaline, although in complete agreement with how LSD's should be tuned, I have found that the two ways of explaining it have shown to me certain definitions of what to look out for when cornering effectively - I simply understand them as understeer and oversteer, but now I know a few more terms that better describe these things. And I also have found, though from naivete rather than hard experience and testing that a lower LSD is generally better.

I refrain from using words like faster/stable etc. because this is subjective. I can get the control I need by using these lower settings - I now know how to fine tune out the under/oversteer in the LSD, I previously thought it could only be tuned out of the suspension.

All in all a really great thread that I'm glad I checked out. I've learned more than I thought I would because it was relayed in the simplest terms. This setting means this and this one means this - I can't say that's not the best way to learn, I don't know what LSD is like in real life because I've never needed to, but I now know what it does in GT5 and can tweak it accordingly.

 

[praiano63]

Experienced?he only tuned 8 cars and you think he's experienced.thats like saying a newbie in this website knows everything about this site.doesnt sound right.

I think you'll not take away his sleep with this anyway.... What is experience ? With PD it's something very difficult to have or at least you have it for a short time between all this physics changes.
What i know is that i don't have any, because i don't tune my cars basing me on knowledge but yes about feeling and sensations with the help of my G27 force feedback and my playseat.
Knowledges are very hard to have because GT5 is just an interpretation of the real car's physic and it don't match always with logical deduction adquired with the help of the named "experience".
It's very hard to do like this. Personally i don't know anybody in this forum more dedicated to understand all this digital physic than adrenaline. The guy is crazy, going so deep in each details till his logical mind can accept something like a true value.(till the next patch )
His tunes are very rock solid, they are the best synthese of the top cars you can find around here.
I won also some fitt shootouts ,but sorry for the other tuners, i don't think this very important . To much differents criterions, differents cars, conditions.......
Again ,the only way for me to know "who is the most experienced" if this have any kind of importance, is the adrenaline's "Tuner Challenge Championship". Everybody with the same car, same track, check the time at the end. Done. Like this you will know who is good with settings.

Take it easy, have fun doing this, this is all about FUN ,only.

Have a good day everybody.

><(((((°>°°°°°°

 

[NEWDRIVER2]

@ Praiano
+1 for what you said .👍
I just start to mess out with some cars and I can't say that I'm a tuner .
But I'm learning day after day to understand how to tune a car by the feeling and my driving style .
And I know that in all of my cars that I tuned you can't found all of them had a good tune on it maybe 2 or 3 that I can say they are not bad to drive them .
Maybe it can be good for some driver and bad for others .

Just I found by posting those tunes and sign up for Shootout is the FUN thing that I'm looking for even I didn't won any of this Shootout but I'm happy with that at list I try .

And that can't allow me to say this is experience tuner or not but I can say you tamed this car very well 👍

MCH Adrenaline Praiano Krenkme Roj Ripper and more sorry if I didn't mention them are very good tuner in many points and I learn from them a lot by reviewing there garage to find a car I'm looking for to tune it as a paunch mark 👍

Sorry for my english .
Thanks

 

[CSLACR]

So on one end we're criticizing someone for not giving credit to a guy because he "only has 8 tunes", and on the other we're saying "if you don't have tunes and success, you have nothing to back up your talk".

Someone riddle me that one, please.

Adrenaline is a great tuner, we all know this, but this has gotta be some of the most back-asswards logic I've ever heard.

Where the topic at?

 

[Onboy123]

Uhh&#8230;on the latter bit, if you were referring to our screwing around posts on the top of the page, I think that was mostly sarcasm. At least, I know I was being sarcastic about that.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Yes, I was being sarcastic myself. I in no way consider myself an elite tuner. I have tuned cars for the Seasonals and TT's and some people have used them with success and even get requests sometimes. Does that make me an elite tuner in the likes of Praiano, Hami, CSLACR, Adrenaline, ect. No, not by a long shot. No where near as good as those guys. Hence the reason I don't go around critisizing those guys. I know enough to make a car handle decent and help other people who don't tune at all. So, again, I was just being sarcastic with my post #84.

@CSLACR: I know your post was probably mostly aimed at me. I'm not sure what your problem is with me as I have done nothing to you in the past, but you seem to like taking your digs at me. I see you are a fellow WRS member and D1 driver. I have nothing but respect for you guys and enjoy learning from you all. So please, lose your attitude with me as I have no problem with you.