Project CARS 3: General Discussion Thread - Out August 28th, 2020 on XB1/PS4/PC

[r_outsider]

See, my thought is if they haven't bothered to model something as simple as drivetrain lockup induced by banging from 6th to 1st, which many will totally use as a braking exploit for multiplayer and time trials (and something I seriously don't recall in a single other title I've played, ever), what else haven't they bothered with or got wrong and how else can it be exploited?

 

[MarcoM]

See, my thought is if they haven't bothered to model something as simple as drivetrain lockup induced by banging from 6th to 1st, which many will totally use as a braking exploit for multiplayer and time trials (and something I seriously don't recall in a single other title I've played, ever), what else haven't they bothered with or got wrong and how else can it be exploited?

I don't think going from 6 to 1 can be used as an exploit in pc3.

 

[killerjimbag]

Can we at least agree to agree that we can nitpick every game title about something on the market?

I spend a significant amount of time in a vehicle. Overall, I find the Project CARS series as the best overall representation of driving vehicles despite its flaws.

Here we go again. Time in vehicle's. What vehicle would that be? We're still waiting on that.Project Cars 1 and 2 yes. Project cars 3 no. Don't lump them all together. Not even in the same ball park.

 

[GTsimms]

Here we go again. Time in vehicle's. What vehicle would that be? We're still waiting on that.Project Cars 1 and 2 yes. Project cars 3 no. Don't lump them all together. Not even in the same ball park.

Smart car for a smart guy up North!

Scaff and Famine got a pm.

 

[killerjimbag]

Smart car for a smart guy up North!

Scaff and Famine got a pm.

No I have a driveway full of Toyotas actually. Yes some of us can back up what we post.

 

[Tank621]

Does it actually matter what specific vehicle he drives or are you just getting kicks out of trying to discredit people because they disagree with you?

What is it for, some petty feud some of you can't get over because someone dared to give their perspective based on their experiences?

Why do you insist on trying to invalidate someone else's credibility? It is at best disrespectful, but it's veering into conspiracy theory, that anyone whose experience has led them to a different conclusion must be lying or have some ulterior motive.

I must say, all this effort to discredit someone for a different perspective, it's tragic and needlessly derails the thread. This kind of behaviour belongs in a Primary School playground.

 

[Scaff]

Smart car for a smart guy up North!

Scaff and Famine got a pm.

The PM @Famine and I got doesn't (in my opinion) clarify anything one way or another. A close-up of an ABS and TC warning light on a dashboard in the dark and another of a police vehicle that we have no way of confirming as being what they are one way or another.

What the vehicle is in terms of model is clear, your involvement with it less so.

Would I dismiss them out of hand? No, but equally I can't say what they support as a claim.

@Famine may have a different take on it.

Does it actually matter what specific vehicle he drives or are you just getting kicks out of trying to discredit people because they disagree with you?

What is it for, some petty feud some of you can't get over because someone dared to give their perspective based on their experiences?

Why do you insist on trying to invalidate someone else's credibility? It is at best disrespectful, but it's veering into conspiracy theory, that anyone whose experience has led them to a different conclusion must be lying or have some ulterior motive.

I must say, all this effort to discredit someone for a different perspective, it's tragic and needlessly derails the thread. This kind of behaviour belongs in a Primary School playground.

Because that claimed experience was used to invalidate the opinion of anyone who disagreed with it, as such it's only reasonable that the question is asked. In addition, some rather extraordinary claims were made on top of that, and as such 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' (to quote Carl Sagan).

 

[killerjimbag]

Does it actually matter what specific vehicle he drives or are you just getting kicks out of trying to discredit people because they disagree with you?

What is it for, some petty feud some of you can't get over because someone dared to give their perspective based on their experiences?

Why do you insist on trying to invalidate someone else's credibility? It is at best disrespectful, but it's veering into conspiracy theory, that anyone whose experience has led them to a different conclusion must be lying or have some ulterior motive.

I must say, all this effort to discredit someone for a different perspective, it's tragic and needlessly derails the thread. This kind of behaviour belongs in a Primary School playground.

Yes it does. I don't know if 47 years of driving everything from locomotives,bulldozers, to snow mobiles drag cars can equate to proof of anything. But proof of a vehicle you drive daily is pretty simple. Name it. There I said I had a driveway full of Toyotas. 1 the Camry is at work. The other 2 a Seianna and a Corrolla are clearly in the picture. Pretty simple now wasn't it. I'm not going outside to damn cold.

 

[Tank621]

All I'm seeing is a personal vendetta spiralling out of control and being actively encouraged by those meant to contain this. Maybe if people weren't made to feel so explicitly unwelcome by being berated by constant interrogation they might be happier to answer your questions.

There's I reason I stopped using these Forums and I am once again reminded why. I would delete my account but apparently, that's not permitted. Either way, I am done.

 

[GTsimms]

Someone please tell Scaff. What the vehicle in front looks like from two years ago! Since, he can't understand how to confirm it.

Actually nevermind, here's a hint.

 

[Toblerone]

No I have a driveway full of Toyotas actually. Yes some of us can back up what we post.

Would this count as back up for you? (Read the text)

 

[Famine]

All I'm seeing is a personal vendetta spiralling out of control and being actively encouraged by those meant to contain this.

As I've been summoned again, please explain this comment.

All I've seen so far is one user disrupting the thread for the past couple of weeks. Initially this was in the form of complaints that people are allowed to say negative things about PC3 in this thread, which became people "shutting him down" by saying negative things about PC3 in this thread somehow, before they unilaterally decided that GTPlanet will not allow positive things about PC3 in this thread - despite being told several times that this is a lie and to stop claiming it. That, thankfully, seems to have stopped, by way of containment.

That user has posted up some opinions about the realism of vehicle tyre/track physics and hinged that off claimed real-world experience of road driving that is not massively relevant; a tyre with a giant sidewall on a fat-ass police cruiser even hauling ass at high road speeds will not give the same experience or information as the rubberbands on very fast stuff on a track, even if you don't account for the wildly different surfaces and crowning (and compounds, and tread, and footprint, and so on).

However it's hard to know exactly what experience he's drawing on as he seems keen to only evade the question of what this experience is. It doesn't seem unreasonable that if someone is citing their real-world experience of stuff, people should know what the experience is in order to place it in context. I could claim I have 20 years of experience in driving race cars, but you wouldn't know what race cars because you'll have never heard of the series, and it was in a different country and anyway she goes to another school. Users would, could, and should rightly question that claim, especially if I was using it to bolster a point of view about racing cars.

That particular line of enquiry could have been over two weeks ago with a PM to any member of staff at all; no need for a big public statement on it, no need to reveal names or identities to all and sundry (Edit: unlike the post above mine, which seems unwise).

By comparison @Scaff's real-world experience is pretty firmly established, with a couple of decades in vehicle dynamics within the motor industry. That's very relevant experience when talking about... well, vehicle dynamics.


I'm not sure who has a vendetta against who, or who's encouraging it.

 

[PJTierney]

Whenever this thread flares up I am reminded of this:

Anyway, here's a picture of a BMW; bask in its greatness (fun car to drive in-game too ):

 

[killerjimbag]

Would this count as back up for you? (Read the text)

Sorry for your accident and thank you for your service. Thankfully you survived.
So it was a Ford Explorer. Thanks.

 

[Nacho Libre]

This likely quashes any possible Xbox Series S/X or PS5 true optimizations. My only hope is that they keep patching the base game. While it has visually improved since launch, it still can match PC2, in fact, the latter has the best balance between visuals/performance in my Series S (!)
Edit: Sorry, I meant to say that PC3 still CAN'T match PC2 on visual terms.

 

[PJTierney]

It runs pretty well on Series X to be fair. Granted it’s not had a visual touch-up but at least the framerate feels solid.

 

[FuriousDemon]

It runs pretty well on Series X to be fair. Granted it’s not had a visual touch-up but at least the framerate feels solid.

Same on PS5.

It’s pretty much 60fps all the time, other than maybe some very specific cases like Monaco in the rain with a bunch of AI, but even then dips are rare and not that severe. I still think pCARS 2 looks a bit better, but it’s not too far off.

 

[Wolfe]

In a modern car yes, in an older vehicle without a reverse inhibitor? That depends, you would need to overcome the lack of syncro (which is possible) and the end result would quite likely be a dead transmission and drivetrain.

I think this dated back to filesharing, pre-YouTube, but there's a video of a BMW M Coupe that managed to accidentally engage reverse during an autocross run. It took multiple grinding attempts, but in his panic the poor guy never made it out of the reverse gate to 1st! Since the driver was still carrying some speed and trying to navigate the course, the clutch managed to engage, sending the car skittering into a spin and stall. The reverse lights were visible in the video.

While shifting to reverse at speed is a pretty unlikely event, I would expect a game that does not model a clutch requirement between shifts to engage reverse at my whim, with either the consequence of backwards wheelspin or the telltale hovering RPM of an auto-clutch waiting to slip the clutch from a lower speed.

 

[GTsimms]

.

As I've been summoned again, please explain this comment.

All I've seen so far is one user disrupting the thread for the past couple of weeks. Initially this was in the form of complaints that people are allowed to say negative things about PC3 in this thread, which became people "shutting him down" by saying negative things about PC3 in this thread somehow, before they unilaterally decided that GTPlanet will not allow positive things about PC3 in this thread - despite being told several times that this is a lie and to stop claiming it. That, thankfully, seems to have stopped, by way of containment.

That user has posted up some opinions about the realism of vehicle tyre/track physics and hinged that off claimed real-world experience of road driving that is not massively relevant; a tyre with a giant sidewall on a fat-ass police cruiser even hauling ass at high road speeds will not give the same experience or information as the rubberbands on very fast stuff on a track, even if you don't account for the wildly different surfaces and crowning (and compounds, and tread, and footprint, and so on).

However it's hard to know exactly what experience he's drawing on as he seems keen to only evade the question of what this experience is. It doesn't seem unreasonable that if someone is citing their real-world experience of stuff, people should know what the experience is in order to place it in context. I could claim I have 20 years of experience in driving race cars, but you wouldn't know what race cars because you'll have never heard of the series, and it was in a different country and anyway she goes to another school. Users would, could, and should rightly question that claim, especially if I was using it to bolster a point of view about racing cars.

That particular line of enquiry could have been over two weeks ago with a PM to any member of staff at all; no need for a big public statement on it, no need to reveal names or identities to all and sundry (Edit: unlike the post above mine, which seems unwise).

By comparison @Scaff's real-world experience is pretty firmly established, with a couple of decades in vehicle dynamics within the motor industry. That's very relevant experience when talking about... well, vehicle dynamics.


I'm not sure who has a vendetta against who, or who's encouraging it.

So, the giant tire wall invalidates my road vehicle experience. You, Scaff, and killerjimbag act like, I have only driven one vehicle in LE or over 27 years of driving. I do have personal vehicles.

So, you are telling me that road vehicles (standard or modified) are slow and never driven on tracks which can be street circuits?

Ex: What type of tire side wall does F1, Indy, and NASCAR use? Unless, I have Mr. Magoo vision. I thought, those side walls were pretty giant!

This guy gives a good example:

 

[NotThePrez]

.

Ex: What type of tire side wall does F1, Indy, and NASCAR use? Unless, I have Mr. Magoo vision. I thought, those side walls were pretty giant!

Look, I'm only a casual observer who pops in from time to time, but if you're seriously trying to imply that your experience in a PI Utility is even remotely comparable to the vehicles you mentioned, because they also have relatively large sidewalls, than that honestly has to be one of the silliest takes I've ever seen on this website, and I frequent the Opinions subforum for the most part. It would be like me claiming that I'm an expert on how TCR Touring Cars should perform because I drive a stock Kia Forte.

So, the giant tire wall invalidates my road vehicle experience. You, Scaff, and killerjimbag act like, I have only driven one vehicle in LE or over 27 years of driving. I do have personal vehicles.

Ok, what kind of vehicles? Are they stock or modified, and in what capacity? Have you done any track days or spent time competing in proper races? Is your experience driving spent on proper race tracks, or mostly/only on public roads with occasional use of high-performance driving?

These are the kind of questions that you've been asked for (what seems like) weeks, and you constantly dodge them, while continuously banging on about your driving experience, and getting heated with anybody who challenges your claims. If you haven't noticed (which I doubt, since it seems you've been told about it before) this is a forum that very much appreciates it when people have sufficient evidence to back up their claims. Using your experience in a tall, high-CoG, 4,000+ lbs vehicle with (relatively) skinny all-season tires on imperfect public roads isn't what I would personally call sufficient evidence to back up claims on how realistic a track-focused racing simulator is or isn't. It seems I'm not the only one who thinks that.

If you experience is as you say it is, it should be extremely easy for you to answer these and other peoples questions (and I am genuinely curious myself, as a casual observer). On the flipside, it's also very easy to say that you were wrong in your judgement, and concede.

 

[Konan]

What i don't get is how the experience of someone driving a fast car once in a while for 25 years gets more valued than the experience of someone who does it almost every day since 27 years...

 

[GTsimms]

Not only, I linked a video showing thoughts on SMS development of the tire model by Nik Romano. You can see what he thinks about PC2.

PC3 took everything a lot further. But, they flipped the switch and turned some features off. But, do those features really kill the experience. Some areas yes and others no!

SMS worked with multiple test drivers from multiple vehicle manufacturers including directly working with Pirelli for PC2. Not only, Ben Collins and several other drivers. But, these guys are liars and don't have a clue about driving a real vehicle? Joe Simracer has more knowledge than these guys combined?

The problem exists as some (assume) the only vehicle that I have ever driven in RL is a PI SUV.

 

[Scaff]

Not only, I linked a video showing thoughts on SMS development of the tire model by Nik Romano. You can see what he thinks about PC2.

That you have to use a video that references PC2 is quite telling, why not ask him what his thoughts on PC3 are?

PC3 took everything a lot further. But, they flipped the switch and turned some features off. But, do those features really kill the experience. Some areas yes and others no!

Not in quite a few peoples view, more than enough has changed to show that.

SMS worked with multiple test drivers from multiple vehicle manufacturers including directly working with Pirelli for PC2. Not only, Ben Collins and several other drivers. But, these guys are liars and don't have a clue about driving a real vehicle? Joe Simracer has more knowledge than these guys combined?

And once again that’s an argument that applies to PC2, not PC3, a title that SMS chose specifically not to work with those people when developing.

The problem exists as some (assume) the only vehicle that I have ever driven in RL is a PI SUV.

No, the problem exists because you have been stunningly evasive about everything. It took weeks for you to even acknowledge what you job was, even longer to provide some zero context details, and another member to provide context for a single image.

Context that did at least allow to staff to gain an understanding of at least two police forces you have worked at (along with publicly available information you have posted). What that did was actually raise more questions among the staff about certain aspects of it.

Nor does it actually support claims of being regularly involved in high speed driving, and people who have driven at speed on tracks and roads (closed roads on proving grounds such as MIRA in my case) will tell you they are quite different things.


As for claiming a direct comparison between high sidewall road tyres and those used in Motorsport? Seriously!

You also have a record of repeatedly dismissing any opinions other than your own, I recall you doing it for Jimmy Broadbent. Who the last time I checked has road and track experience with a 300bhp MX5, a highly modified R32 and an R35, all his own cars. Add in his experience racing karts, driving a TCR Audi and GT4 McLaren and his upcoming guest spot as a Britcar driver, but he’s not valid because, checks notes, ah yes that’s it, he doesn’t agree with you on PC3.

What i don't get is how the experience of someone driving a fast car once in a while for 25 years gets more valued than the experience of someone who does it almost every day since 27 years...

You don’t get how one of those things have been independently verified and the other one hasn’t?

Want to see me driving on track, here you go, the staff can also confirm via IP lookup that I posted here at GTP on that day from Thruxton circuit.

Thruxton Race Car Experience vs AC and AMS



Not to forget that Simms is under the impression that the following...

Assetto Corsa - CSP 1.73 and Sol 2.0.1


...is impossible.

Oh, I hope that I don't die today at 40 mph trying to take a turn on dry pavement like in (x) sim has simulated.

 

[Konan]

[You don’t get how one of those things have been independently verified and the other one hasn’t?]

I think being a patrol officer for all those years doesn't need more explanation than that.
I wasn't strictly talking about you either.
Some people think they are more experienced driving trucks, snow mobiles, etc...
I was just wondering why Simms' experience gets shot down, only because he doesn't get into detail or has videos to prove what he experiences...

 

[Scaff]

Oh, I hope that I don't die today at 40 mph trying to take a turn on dry pavement like in (x) sim has simulated.

[You don’t get how one of those things have been independently verified and the other one hasn’t?]

I think being a patrol officer for all those years doesn't need more explanation than that.
I wasn't strictly talking about you either.
Some people think they are more experienced driving trucks, snow mobiles, etc...
I was just wondering why Simms' experience gets shot down, only because he doesn't get into detail or has videos to prove what he experiences...

It doesn’t get shot down, it gets questioned, because a) people on the internet have been known to make things up and b) he’s been very, very evasive about providing anything to support it.

 

[Famine]

So, the giant tire wall invalidates my road vehicle experience. You, Scaff, and killerjimbag act like, I have only driven one vehicle in LE or over 27 years of driving. I do have personal vehicles.

So, you are telling me that road vehicles (standard or modified) are slow and never driven on tracks which can be street circuits?

Yet more evasion, of exactly the type mentioned in the quoted post, and with specious points already addressed in the quoted post...

Next we're going to have "What is it you drive day to day?" followed by "So you think I only drive during the day? Is night not a thing now? Are you telling me it's never dark where you live? They race on dark tracks in F1 and at Le Mans etc.".

 

[Konan]

It doesn’t get shot down, it gets questioned, because a) people on the internet have been known to make things up and b) he’s been very, very evasive about providing anything to support it.

He can't provide evidence though, he's in public service and isn't allowed to just share footage...

 

[Scaff]

He can't provide evidence though, he's in public service and isn't allowed to just share footage...

Of course, it's not like two of the forces he appears to have worked for have Facebook pages or anything, or that he would be able to provide details to the staff (which would never be posted publically) to verify it.

The latter is what I did (before I was a mod) to prove that I worked on the first generation Clio V6 while I was at Renault, involved with both the road car and the single model race series. Since then Famine has met a number of people in the industry I also know and/or have worked with. While I am now in management for a 3rd party company that provides software, training, and consultancy to the industry (at all levels), and rarely deliver training myself, and much of what I do is covered by NDA's, I have still managed to adequately back up my claims. As have others here, Famine himself, for example, has an absurd level of experience with road cars of all levels, and more than enough time on track to form a very valid experience, all of which again has been independently verified.

What we got instead was a photograph of an accident (with no context - that had to be provided by 'Sum Dixon' and was far more useful) and another picture that proved absolutely nothing).

 

[IfAndOr]

Actually never mind, here's a hint

I love that there's a note on the window that says "Post test". I'm sure know one would have a clue otherwise.


Anyway chaps let it lie. All this chest thumping is awkward. It's not compulsory to reply to every post you know. (The ignore user button is also a great option in some cases.)

Some like the game and think it replicates real life vehicles well, great. There are others who also like the game but say it's not so true to life, and that's also great. Others don't like the game or the handling (much like with PC2) and that's fine. That's opinions for you, and most seem to understand that it's just differing views of A GAME (or games). Although it often seems like it, there's no points to be scored so what's the point in getting so worked up about it and continually going over the same ground. There's too much bitterness about!

The only qualms I'd have is with those who haven't even got the game, yet seem to have strong opinions on it, particularly the handling. And this is I presume from... well I not sure. They'd have to try and explain, reviews, hearsay, a general prejudice? People seem to dislike the game, not because of the actual game, but because it wasn't marketed in the manner they'd like. I always find this odd. It's that "All the..." again.

As I've said before I like the game. A lot. Whether it's got entirely accurate true to life handling? Probably not. What I would say is it's got the best balance between realistic yet fun handling of any of the titles I've owned. Of course that's just an opinion just based on personal enjoyment, nothing else.


And @Mr Grumpy, from our PCCP races and from watching your videos then guessing at what you seem to like, I actually think you'd like PC3. Maybe take a chance when it's on sale next, you might be surprised. I was.

 

[r_outsider]

It's on sale on XBL right now, albeit not at a huge discount. Still pretty sure I'll still just save my money for now.

It's a funny thing, how different people view things. To be completely honest, and this is from a huge fan of racing games dating back to the first time I saw Night Driver in an arcade, none of them feel completely convincing to me. Some of them get close, but nothing quite gets there and without actually being in the car and feeling it move around under you and hearing everything going on and having the g-forces pull you around, they all don't quite compare to the actual experience. And I own, have owned, or even just driven a few cars (and bikes for that matter) that are in or at least related to models in a few games. In some pretty sketchy conditions for a good chunk of the year, too,

And no, driving really fast on a highway does not compare in any way to track driving. I don't think we can even compare to rally or point to point road racing on the same sort of roads, to be honest.