Project CARS 3: General Discussion Thread - Out August 28th, 2020 on XB1/PS4/PC

[MarcoM]

I recognize the things you say about Shift. But I do not get the feeling that PC3 has similar assists.

 

[Johnnn]

I recognize the things you say about Shift. But I do not get the feeling that PC3 has similar assists.

I am not sure, I quit it very fast because it was impossible to play on a gamepad. The lag was there and I have a problem with lag in PC3 so it could be similar. It wasn't the same problem. Some strange assists in both games.

 

[Toblerone]

nope wont be playing that mode again what a mess be so easy to implement an option too... sigh.

It would be great to be able to turn the ghosts on and off, but the best way to play Rivals for now is to select Restart after every run instead of Continue. That way you only race against the slowest three ghosts which shouldn't get in the way. All your times still get recorded and makes Rivals much less frustrating as it never loads up any faster opponents.

 

[evldave333]

It would be great to be able to turn the ghosts on and off, but the best way to play Rivals for now is to select Restart after every run instead of Continue. That way you only race against the slowest three ghosts which shouldn't get in the way. All your times still get recorded and makes Rivals much less frustrating as it never loads up any faster opponents.

thats really handy thanx, the faster I got the worse ghosts crowded out the apex's

 

[Toblerone]

thats really handy thanx, the faster I got the worse ghosts crowded out the apex's

Couldn't agree more, the ghosts are obtrusive and very distracting. Wireframe cars, less intrusive opacity or a simple On/Off option would help... they are supposed to be there to assist us, not hinder our ability to go quicker. When you have more than one ghost in a braking zone/apex... it's impossible to see where you are going.

 

[evldave333]

Couldn't agree more, the ghosts are obtrusive and very distracting. Wireframe cars, less intrusive opacity or a simple On/Off option would help... they are supposed to be there to assist us, not hinder our ability to go quicker. When you have more than one ghost in a braking zone/apex... it's impossible to see where you are going.

Was becoming a trippy psychedelic apex (with swearing instead of giggles) as each car took exactly the same line with just hundredths of a sec between lol

 

[IfAndOr]

Ghosts. It just needs an...

...option. I'll send the idea to SMS.

Rivals also needs a better search / find friends ability. Or even an option to find yourself! I'm still hooked by it though.

 

[GTsimms]

Couldn't agree more, the ghosts are obtrusive and very distracting. Wireframe cars, less intrusive opacity or a simple On/Off option would help... they are supposed to be there to assist us, not hinder our ability to go quicker. When you have more than one ghost in a braking zone/apex... it's impossible to see where you are going.

We have asked about having the option to turn them off. Unfortunately, I don't think it will change at this point.

 

[GTsimms]

I recognize the things you say about Shift. But I do not get the feeling that PC3 has similar assists.

You are correct with a wheel. I haven't noticed any assistance. I have at least 140 hours in-game.

Using a controller it's a different story. I have been using a controller to run the Raging Bull event for XP and Credits. I personally don't like the controller feeling.

 

[Johnnn]

You are correct with a wheel. I haven't noticed any assistance. I have at least 140 hours in-game.

Using a controller it's a different story. I have been using a controller to run the Raging Bull event for XP and Credits. I personally don't like the controller feeling.

That's good, I hate the feeling

But @Scaff told about wheel assists. I don't have space for a wheel so I don't know but it looks right to me they added some helpers directly before any input.

 

[GTsimms]

That's good, I hate the feeling

But @Scaff told about wheel assists. I don't have space for a wheel so I don't know but it looks right to me they added some helpers directly before any input.

If, the wheel really has some helpers. It would extend to every sim/game that I have ever played. Not only that, every vehicle that I have ever driven in RL must have some helpers directly before any input. But, who knows my experience is dumbed down and arcade 🤬.

 

[MarcoM]

If, the wheel really has some helpers. It would extend to every sim/game that I have ever played. Not only that, every vehicle that I have ever driven in RL must have some helpers directly before any input. But, who knows my experience is dumbed down and arcade 🤬.

I think every game has some helpers.

What I do notice that going back to pc2 is that I consider pc3 a more balanced or evolved experience.

When you push the limit in either rivals or career events, then you really notice the underlying physics.

 

[Johnnn]

If, the wheel really has some helpers. It would extend to every sim/game that I have ever played. Not only that, every vehicle that I have ever driven in RL must have some helpers directly before any input. But, who knows my experience is dumbed down and arcade 🤬.

I don't know. Normal sim games has direct input for a wheel and the same for a pad (no helpers at all). PC3 has many helpers for a pad so it makes sense to me they maybe improved wheel a bit. We need to ask Scaff.

 

[Toblerone]

I don't know. Normal sim games has direct input for a wheel and the same for a pad (no helpers at all). PC3 has many helpers for a pad so it makes sense to me they maybe improved wheel a bit. We need to ask Scaff.

PC3 has the same input as every other sim I've ever played with a FFB wheel... there are no hidden assists.

 

[MarcoM]

I don't know. Normal sim games has direct input for a wheel and the same for a pad (no helpers at all). PC3 has many helpers for a pad so it makes sense to me they maybe improved wheel a bit. We need to ask Scaff.

Gran Turismo games also have really awesome helpers for pad users and much less for wheel users.

Maybe you need to ask Scaff, that's OK. But that's not the same for everyone.

Scaff has a great technical insights, but in the end it's just an opinion like we all have.

 

[AlexWilmot]

There are some assist always on:




Yes the second video is on a pad,
Every racing game has the same input... It's what the game does with it and translates it to what the car does that's the arguement

 

[Scaff]

Maybe you need to ask Scaff, that's OK. But that's not the same for everyone.

Scaff has a great technical insights, but in the end it's just an opinion like we all have.

THanks.

I've covered my thought on what causes this before, but in all fairness it was in another thread and back last year.

I've already explained PC3 is more forgiving in this regard because of input smoothing.

Ok, so what is input smoothing?

First, you need to understand that a car will generate the maximum about of lateral grip when it actually exceeds it tyres slip angle limit by a small amount, the exact amount will vary depending on the tyre, but all tyres will do this. That is not a subject for debate, its a demonstrable, proven fact of vehicle dynamics and tyre physics.

As such all cornering on the limit will require constant corrections to keep at that optimum limit, and if you step over that limit then greater correction will be needed, until a point is reached where you will not be able to correct it. Any correction will need to involve applying the right amount of steering lock and throttle application. Once again these are not areas of debate, they are proven, demonstrable facts of vehicle dynamics and tyre physics.

See pages 13 to 75 of Milliken and Milliken's book, Race Car vehicle dynamics for citations on all of the above, and the following illustrates the point around slip angles rather well.

View attachment 954177

Now if a correction requires a steering input of X and a throttle input of Y to correct, then, in reality, you don't need to be exact with this and depending on the tyre you may well be able to get away with an overlap of say +/- 4% and still correct for it, with road tyres being more forgiving that slicks in general terms.

What input smoothing does is allow a greater, and more un-realistic range of error to still be seen as 'correct', let's say it allows correction overlaps of +/- 15% to still be seen as 'right'. Its not realistic, but it sure does feel great for most people. What its doing is smoothing out the errors in the input the user is making, making the driving model more forgiving and easy to get to grips with.

Ac to ACC categorically does not do this, PC3 in comparison to PC and PC2 does, and you can feel it.

Its why GTS and PC3 (and many other titles) feel so gamepad friendly, some even go so far as to start applying opposite lock for you, which PC3 does this with a gamepad even with all assist off. Its what Driveclub does, and funnily enough the same team that refined that area for Driveclub worked on PC3!

On a related topic you can see how far it can be taken with the steering and brake assists that you can complete a daily Rivals event with the throttle buried and only minor steering input.

Now, this also doesn't include the issues that exist within PC3 that also help the driver, such as the very short stopping distances, the reducing/absence of lock-up in straight-line braking, the bodged clutch implementation (a factor that PC2 also suffered with) and the ability to change from 6 to reverse using an h-pattern with little effect on the balance of the car.

None of which means I dislike PC3, quite the opposite, I simply enjoy it for what it is.

 

[GTsimms]

THanks.

I've covered my thought on what causes this before, but in all fairness it was in another thread and back last year.



Now, this also doesn't include the issues that exist within PC3 that also help the driver, such as the very short stopping distances, the reducing/absence of lock-up in straight-line braking, the bodged clutch implementation (a factor that PC2 also suffered with) and the ability to change from 6 to reverse using an h-pattern with little effect on the balance of the car.

None of which means I dislike PC3, quite the opposite, I simply enjoy it for what it is.

I haven't noticed any absence of lock-ups in straight line braking. It's interesting that, I regularly use brF to reduce it as much as possible.

 

[Scaff]

I haven't noticed any absence of lock-ups in straight line braking. It's interesting that, I regularly use brF to reduce it as much as possible.

I talk about it in this video, the R35 stops significantly quick in PC3 than in reality, that's without ABS in PC3 and my tactile unit sends the same feed you get with ABS on when braking in a straight line without ABS. Note that any steering input stops this and it will then lock-up.

I've not tested this specifically in a while, but at the time the video was put together it was present.

 

[evldave333]

the ability to change from 6 to reverse using an h-pattern with little effect on the balance of the car

Indeed this factor is of prime importance as its used so frequently too, Im always doing it to get that last parking space at Tesco's. However this is nothing when compared to the omission of electric milk float & shop mobility scooter racing leagues, I am quietly appalled...

 

[Scaff]

Indeed this factor is of prime importance as its used so frequently too, Im always doing it to get that last parking space at Tesco's. However this is nothing when compared to the omission of electric milk float & shop mobility scooter racing leagues, I am quietly appalled...

It’s a rather brutal, but effective method of testing how well drivetrain shunt from mismatched downshifts is modelled, as well as (for titles that have it) the drive train damage model.

 

[evldave333]

It’s a rather brutal, but effective method of testing how well drivetrain shunt from mismatched downshifts is modelled, as well as (for titles that have it) the drive train damage model.

Its a ludicrous concept, forced downshift modelling one or two gears yes, into reverse from 6th nope. Programmers are not going to model and write lines of code for scenarios that have no practical function, they have deadlines to meet. Im sure you spit your coffee, because they dont accurately model midge build up on a windscreen whilst driving on a summer day... I get being the most "sim" is an ego badge of honour for some, but keep it real...

 

[Scaff]

Its a ludicrous concept, forced downshift modelling one or two gears yes, into reverse from 6th nope. Programmers are not going to model and write lines of code for scenarios that have no practical function, they have deadlines to meet. Im sure you spit your coffee, because they dont accurately model midge build up on a windscreen whilst driving on a summer day... I get being the most "sim" is an ego badge of honour for some, but keep it real...

Really, because I can point out quite a few titles that do model it, including PCars1 and PCars2.

Nor does it need to be 'modelled' separately if the physics engine models the difference between engine speed and road speed and its effects.

Seem's I'm not the one getting worked up here either, might want to calm down and watch the blood pressure.

 

[MarcoM]

Just tried the porsche GT4. It does not allow downshifts to a gear that is not in the rpm range. Good.

Also tried the Porsche 962. Downshift from 280 km/h to 1st. Car slows a bit down, but yeah that is not very realistic.

If you drive a manual car, keep the gear shifts real

 

[GTsimms]

Can we at least agree to agree that we can nitpick every game title about something on the market?

I spend a significant amount of time in a vehicle. Overall, I find the Project CARS series as the best overall representation of driving vehicles despite its flaws.

 

[evldave333]

Really, because I can point out quite a few titles that do model it, including PCars1 and PCars2.

Nor does it need to be 'modelled' separately if the physics engine models the difference between engine speed and road speed and its effects.

Seem's I'm not the one getting worked up here either, might want to calm down and watch the blood pressure.

I knew you would bite... my blood pressure is fine thanks (are you projecting there?). You're are spot on it is erroneously modelled in some titles, you're an astute guy when it comes to breaking down how software is modelled, I respect that analysis. But there is a matter of actual physics here, you cannot engage reverse from sixth gear at speed (although you can get a delightful crunching sound and stink of burning clutch), thus there is no need to model it in software... You base your opinions off of driving in game rather than reality (I saw your hilarious youtube video review were you demonstrated this fact and expected the car to spin rofl / you actually believed that for the model to be accurate the gear would engage sixth to reverse at speed) . Now I wouldnt expect you to concede a point as it is not in your nature to do so, (as a mighty moderator / arbiter of sim driving truth).

 

[MarcoM]

@GTsimms

As do I.

So I really wonder why the aggressive tone of voice here. From my post history in this thread, you should know that I am on the side of PC3 (and many other titles).

When I notice strange things in other titles, I report them as well. Here and via the official channels.

I am a bit shocked by your response really.

Edit: my response was to GTsimms, because he quoted my previous post about the Gt4 an 962. GTsimms removed the quote.

Still I think this is not nit picking. It happens to other games as well. Pointing out things is good. Racing improves the breed.

 

[Johnnn]

I spend a significant amount of time in a vehicle. Overall, I find the Project CARS series as the best overall representation of driving vehicles despite its flaws.

I am still not sure why I like PC1 handling so much (PC2 is fine). It's so different and I can't find it in any other game. Do you think PC handling overall is great? Because I read many times how bad PC is. It doesn't make much sense because almost every sim is a crap in someone's opinion.

 

[GTsimms]

I am still not sure why I like PC1 handling so much (PC2 is fine). It's so different and I can't find it in any other game. Do you think PC handling overall is great? Because I read many times how bad PC is. It doesn't make much sense because almost every sim is a crap in someone's opinion.

I think, they are all good. I think some of the WMD1 members screwed the handling up on PC1. The car setup menu Master Scale was probably about 90% of the main issue.

It would have been great, if a FFB settings per car could have been saved in PC2/PC3.

 

[Scaff]

I knew you would bite... my blood pressure is fine thanks (are you projecting there?).

Replying to a post I'm quoted in is biting now?

You're are spot on it is erroneously modelled in some titles, you're an astute guy when it comes to breaking down how software is modelled, I respect that analysis. But there is a matter of actual physics here, you cannot engage reverse from sixth gear at speed (although you can get a delightful crunching sound and stink of burning clutch), thus there is no need to model it in software... You base your opinions off of driving in game rather than reality (I saw your hilarious youtube video review were you demonstrated this fact and expected the car to spin rofl / you actually believed that for the model to be accurate the gear would engage sixth to reverse at speed) .

In a modern car yes, in an older vehicle without a reverse inhibitor? That depends, you would need to overcome the lack of syncro (which is possible) and the end result would quite likely be a dead transmission and drivetrain.

Now I wouldnt expect you to concede a point as it is not in your nature to do so, (as a mighty moderator / arbiter of sim driving truth).

Play the ball, not the person. As I seem to have seriously upset you at some point in the past, no idea when however.

Ah, that's it, I disagreed with you on this:

I think you will find this game will appeal more to the Forza and GT player base than the previous titles did, and will garner higher sales as a result. What is guaranteed is the small minority of sim players would generate less sales and money is what its all about for good or bad.

A point even Ian Bell has conceded, it shifted fewer units and is less active than either of the first two titles, regardless of platform.