Project CARS/SMS vs Gran Turismo/PD Graphical quality

[Samus]

For the benefit of @Saidur_Ali, comparisons of SMS graphical quality to PD and GT. Note that this is not intended to turn into a general vs thread or flaming/trolling free for all, just a factual comparison of graphical quality.

So to start for Project CARS, here are some details of car models. Note that many of these are not entirely finished but we're not permitted to share most of this stuff outside the forum. We also can't tell you how many polys they're running, to answer a direct question from Saidur. It's worth noting that SMS don't only model the visible/exterior part of cars. They model all of the major physical components of each car in clear detail.

I also don't think I can tell you which cars are modeled by video/image reference and which are modeled from 3D CAD data but suffice to say there are quite a lot of the latter.

So, Saidur by all means upload some comparisons from PD to see if they're doing anything better, or as you specifically claimed anything from 2007.

 

[Samus]

Now for track quality/detail. Not cherry picks photos, just some of the latest photos posted in a screenshots thread on WMD forum.

Will add some close up textures later. But by all means show us what PD were doing in 2007 that was graphically superior.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Do you have wireframe of any interiors, any for example as detailed as this:

It is going to be hard to show graphics of GT considering I have no access to wireframe models unless they showed it and only level of detail they allow us to see for other components. Given limited discussion on other points, I guess we can only compare pictures and what PD do. If you want to compare track textures then I guess it is only fair to compare PS3 vs PS3.

Here is picture on GT6 of Willow Springs track:

 

[Samus]

Not that I can post here, no. Wireframes are less important though IMO, it's what they 'do' with those polys and how the final product looks that matters. No point adding thousands more tri's if the final result is no better.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Not that I can post here, no. Wireframes are less important though IMO, it's what they 'do' with those polys and how the final product looks that matters. No point adding thousands more tri's if the final result is no better.

I think they are doing a great job on PS3, you can see how great they look on photomode the cars. One can imagine how great they will look on PS4 considering how much more memory and GPU power they have. Why do you think the final result will be no better, I think that is reason why recent GT games can look so good due to asset quality, for example on GT5P:



Hardware power is one thing but asset quality has to be at a really high level to make most of it and I think PD are in good position to make best looking racing game ever created on any platform once they release next GT game on PS4.

 

[Samus]

What I meant was more polys does not automatically mean better. After a certain point more polys won't really make much of a visible difference.

Hardware power is one thing but asset quality has to be at a really high level to make most of it and I think PD are in good position to make best looking racing game ever created on any platform once they release next GT game on PS4.

That may well be true but that wasn't your claim in the other thread, your claim was that SMS are behind what PD were doing in 2007. There is plenty of detail in SMS car models to match the above and as noted in the OP they go far beyond what PD do under the skin. We've not seen any evidence that PD model cars to that level of detail.

Also remember these are all in game shots, no photomode.


I'd also wager you won't find track textures like this from PD in 2007.

And why would you, this is 2014 high end graphics on PC and PS4, which is why that whole point seemed ridiculous to me.

 

[Parker]

This isn't something that could be handled in a PM? I think it is fairly obvious that Project Cars on the PC will be graphically superior to a PS3 game, if others don't agree, who cares?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Again @Samus you seem to be talking about hardware strength, I'm not sure if I can post the pCARS PS3 pics although they are on other internet forums, but I personally think they look quite a bit below GT5 or GT6 the same track and that is a game with framerate and resolution target quite a bit lower overall. You can see kind of procedure PD did back in 2007 for capturing cars: Link

You can also see for example kind of car detail they are working with on this video:




Asset quality and capturing methods are key to end product and I think PD do it quite well so with PS3 they still look very good:




I can only imagine what they can do with PS4 when they show off their work in all its glory. What Naughty Dog has shown at 1080p 60FPS gives me high hopes what PD will be able to achieve.

 

[Sele1981]

You can't simply compare a ps3 game with next gen. We have to wait for gt7 to get an answer. And all I can say is, PD was always a Messias in graphics on the new console. No game looked better than gt (prologue) as it came out on ps3 for the first time.

Fairly enough, I must say pcars looks photo realistic. I have no doubts that gt7 will blow us away! You've seen the uncharted trailer? Sony exclusive games looks eye candy.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You can't simply compare a ps3 game with next gen. We have to wait for gt7 to get an answer. And all I can say is, PD was always a Messias in graphics on the new console. No game looked better than gt (prologue) as it came out on ps3 for the first time.

Fairly enough, I must say pcars looks photo realistic. I have no doubts that gt7 will blow us away! You've seen the uncharted trailer? Sony exclusive games looks eye candy.

Agreed, I'm sure GT7 on the PS4 will look as good as PCars does. Unfortunately GT's weakness is not graphics, it's gameplay and unless it's recreated from the ground up with racing in mind, online and off, scalable for all players, it won't have much appeal for me. GT6 looks great for the PS3, 1200 cars, dozens of tracks..and not much to do except TT's and hotlaps.

 

[GTAndy36]

I would buy GT7 for the graphical quality, eye candy and photomode.
I would buy PCars for the racing.

(I'm not completely sure what the point of this thread is, as we can't compare PCars to GT yet.)

 

[Imari]

I can only imagine what they can do with PS4 when they show off their work in all its glory.

Which is not the point. You said pCARS was worse that PD in 2007, ie. not next gen.

I'm not sure if I can post the pCARS PS3 pics although they are on other internet forums, but I personally think they look quite a bit below GT5 or GT6 the same track and that is a game with framerate and resolution target quite a bit lower overall.

There are no such things as pCARS PS3 pictures. The ones that were made were mockups to meet a hardware target that no longer exists. pCARS is PC/X1/PS4 only. Those are your choices for comparison.

 

[starknight97]

Can the op add a couple of Assetto Corsa pics in his posts and include it in the thread title?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Which is not the point. You said pCARS was worse that PD in 2007, ie. not next gen.

I'm comparing how good graphics the actual assets look, I would go even further and go back to 2006. Quite amazing how good for example the cars looked in GT HD back then but given how high polygon models they were doing back then, I guess it is not a surprise.

There are no such things as pCARS PS3 pictures. The ones that were made were mockups to meet a hardware target that no longer exists. pCARS is PC/X1/PS4 only. Those are your choices for comparison.

It was running on PS3.

 

[Imari]

It was running on PS3.

Prove it. If you want to link to stuff inside WMD then do so, I'm a member.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Prove it. If you want to link to stuff inside WMD then do so, I'm a member.

Sure, but that means you can't prove what you said: Link

 

[Samus]

I'm comparing how good graphics the actual assets look, I would go even further and go back to 2006. Quite amazing how good for example the cars looked in GT HD back then but given how high polygon models they were doing back then, I guess it is not a surprise..

So it was just the polygons on the exterior of car models you were talking about when you said they were way ahead? You really should have said that to start with rather than a general "they're way behind on graphics".

 

[LogiForce]

The way I see it is that PD doesn't model or hardly models any engine components. Hence they can spend those polygons on the exterior, and there are a lot of nooks and crannies on engine components that demand a lot of polygons... so that's a lot of spare polygons for PD.

Here is proof from GT6. You can clearly see that apart from the shocks, springs, brakes and exhaust, there isn't anything modelled under the hood and car.

So why does SMS model the entire car?
The answer is simple. Allowing cars to flip as well as have an extensive damage model. So when the hood flies off you can see the engine and all components. Things like that.
A proper damage model is what lacks in GT, they only have a few scratches and dents by comparison.

At least this definitally falls behind in the graphics department:

Taking into account how much polygons SMS is spending to model a car, I think SMS is actually able to be at least as efficient as PD... albeit with a different balance in graphical fidelity. But they won't go PS3 anymore, so comparing the current state of the game to GT6 is like comparing apples and oranges. However, it is true that SMS would have to scale down the eye candy for the game to run on PS3 with an acceptable field of cars and decent resolution and FPS.

 

[VBR]

I'd like to see P Cars running on a PS3, & then compare that with GT6. Or, wait for GT7 to come out on the PS4, & then compare that with P Cars running on a PS4. These are the only fair comparisons imo. I predict that GT7 will look better on the PS4 than P Cars, but that P Cars will be a much better game.

I'm a one sim man, if P Cars delivers I'll have no reason to buy GT7, & won't. Except maybe pick up a cheap second hand copy to marvel at the eye candy for 5 minutes.


👍

 

[Sele1981]

The way I see it is that PD doesn't model or hardly models any engine components. Hence they can spend those polygons on the exterior, and there are a lot of nooks and crannies on engine components that demand a lot of polygons... so that's a lot of spare polygons for PD.

Here is proof from GT6. You can clearly see that apart from the shocks, springs, brakes and exhaust, there isn't anything modelled under the hood and car.

So why does SMS model the entire car?
The answer is simple. Allowing cars to flip as well as have an extensive damage model. So when the hood flies off you can see the engine and all components. Things like that.
A proper damage model is what lacks in GT, they only have a few scratches and dents by comparison.

At least this definitally falls behind in the graphics department:

Taking into account how much polygons SMS is spending to model a car, I think SMS is actually able to be at least as efficient as PD... albeit with a different balance in graphical fidelity. But they won't go PS3 anymore, so comparing the current state of the game to GT6 is like comparing apples and oranges. However, it is true that SMS would have to scale down the eye candy for the game to run on PS3 with an acceptable field of cars and decent resolution and FPS.

So possibly we'll get premium premium cars in gt7 with engine. So we have ps2,ps3 and ps4 cars

They should really get rid of the ps2 cars for ps4.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'd like to see P Cars running on a PS3, & then compare that with GT6. Or, wait for GT7 to come out on the PS4, & then compare that with P Cars running on a PS4. These are the only fair comparisons imo. I predict that GT7 will look better on the PS4 than P Cars, but that P Cars will be a much better game.

I'm a one sim man, if P Cars delivers I'll have no reason to buy GT7, & won't. Except maybe pick up a cheap second hand copy to marvel at the eye candy for 5 minutes.

👍

Thing is, once you get to true 1080P/60FPS and PS4/PC levels of graphics, if a decent effort is put into modeling, there won't be much difference in any game. Cars look almost photo real in GT6 photo mode already and they certainly look almost real in PCars as well. DriveClub looks great, so does Forza 5. Once you get to the polygon level you're at now, there is almost nothing to gain in car modeling. After that it's all about the game. Physics obviously, sounds, racing, accurate FFB, basically attempting to recreate a real racing/driving experience in your home. Car and track variety become more important as well because you'll have more things to do with them.

The next couple of years are going to be outstanding. I'm usually a one-sim guy myself, don't really have time to do more than that but it's going to be awfully hard to resist in the near future.

 

[LogiForce]

So possibly we'll get premium premium cars in gt7 with engine. So we have ps2,ps3 and ps4 cars

They should really get rid of the ps2 cars for ps4.

How about just starting from scratch like Turn10 did with the latest Forza?
Of course already laserscanned tracks will only need a polygon update in the corners to improve smoothness, plus a texture overhaul. Maybe new curbs with properly shaped collision mesh and let the rumble fall out of collision.

Anyway... first we need proper sound I think.

 

[VBR]

Thing is, once you get to true 1080P/60FPS and PS4/PC levels of graphics, if a decent effort is put into modeling, there won't be much difference in any game. Cars look almost photo real in GT6 photo mode already and they certainly look almost real in PCars as well. DriveClub looks great, so does Forza 5. Once you get to the polygon level you're at now, there is almost nothing to gain in car modeling. After that it's all about the game. Physics obviously, sounds, racing, accurate FFB, basically attempting to recreate a real racing/driving experience in your home. Car and track variety become more important as well because you'll have more things to do with them.

The next couple of years are going to be outstanding. I'm usually a one-sim guy myself, don't really have time to do more than that but it's going to be awfully hard to resist in the near future.

PD have always had the edge when it comes to lighting, paint shading, & environmental effects. For instance, I really don't like the fog effects in P Cars, GT6 looks way better to me. When GT7 is running on the PS4 I think the combination of all these things will make it look better. It's not just about how many polygons you have.

 

[MasamuneDate]

PD have always had the edge when it comes to lighting, paint shading, & environmental effects. For instance, I really don't like the fog effects in P Cars, GT6 looks way better to me. When GT7 is running on the PS4 I think the combination of all these things will make it look better. It's not just about how many polygons you have.

I wonder if PD is going to model an entire car for GT7 as SMS do with PCARS. It doesn't matter a damn whether the graphical quality is superior than PCARS' if their models aren't complete.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I wonder if PD is going to model an entire car for GT7 as SMS do with PCARS. It doesn't matter a damn if the graphical quality is superior than PCARS' if their models aren't complete.

I'm not aware of them modeling engine bays, and the undersides of cars but they may have recorded the data and just stored it for later use.

 

[MasamuneDate]

I'm not aware of them modeling engine bays, and the undersides of cars but they may have recorded the data and just stored it for later use.

I sure hope that's the case.

 

[Robin]

PD have always had the edge when it comes to lighting, paint shading, & environmental effects.

This. Although I feel PCars has the best models PD manages to slightly win in the graphics dept and its all down to clever lighting and reflections.

However given how limited Gran Turismo is in everything else, including the tracks looking really bland, PCars is better overall.

 

[VBR]

I wonder if PD is going to model an entire car for GT7 as SMS do with PCARS. It doesn't matter a damn whether the graphical quality is superior than PCARS' if their models aren't complete.

Good point, I hope they start doing this. One thing that really annoys me about PD's car models is that they don't model the inside of wheels. I can see how this was a clever strategy on the PS1 to conserve polygons & use them in more important areas, but they've become stuck in their ways & doing it on PS3 seems plain lazy imo. If they carry on doing this on the PS4, they'll become more of a laughing stock than they already are!

 

[Sele1981]

I wonder how you guys can see the engine under the hood or the inside of the wheels when you are racing 1st world problems...

 

[DG_Silva]

When the bonnet or wings come off.