Proposal about a new tuning/parts shop system

[shirakawaa]

Recently I've been pondering about the tuning system, and in particular about the parts shop in GT5. I've come to the conclusion that the way it is, it has several problems:

- It gives a false illusion of detail
- There's not much incentive in buying lower grade parts, except when just starting the game, where credits are hard to come by
- It's hard to quickly define a "tuning level" except for PP and power
- Overall it's an outdated, slow, cumbersome system that isn't either fun, engaging (as a game) or satisfactorily realistic (as a simulator)

My opinion is that the system could be revamped and made not only simpler but also better, by reducing it to "tuning levels" in several areas: powertrain, drivetrain/transmission, chassis/suspensions, tires. Each area would be divided in 10 levels, with 1 being stock and 10 fully tuned. Each step would increasingly cost money and each perform increasingly better upgrades to the car in addition of unlocking options and features. Of course, each step would have a general description stating what is performed, so that it doesn't end up being a completely generic "level system".

I've written down a possible example:

Powertrain

1. Stock
   • No modifications performed. At this stage, all cars in Gran Turismo can only fit freely provided flanges to reduce output power and torque
2. Sports ECU
   • Optimizes engine output power and allows the modification of certain basic engine parameters
3. Sports intake / exhaust
   • Fits a free-flowing sports cat-back exhaust system and a sports intake air filter that optimize power and torque output
   • Further, the Exhaust/Sport and Intake/Sport sound options get unlocked
4. Stage 1 engine modifications
   • This engine modification step performs small changes to the engine internals in order to improve the engine's general efficiency by improving output power, torque and maximum rpm.
   • Unlocks three different engine configurations focusing engine efficiency on low, mid and high rpm
5. Sports Flywheel 1
   • By decreasing the flywheel weight, the car's engine response will become quicker. However engine control ad idle might become more difficult.
   • Unlocks the sports flywheel engine part
6. Stage 2 engine modifications
   • This engine modification step further improves what has been done in the previous one. More parts get optimized and some get replaced by custom hi-spec ones. The engine's general efficiency improves, and so the maximum attainable rpm
   • Further, additional engine power/torque configurations become available, for a total of 6
7. Semi-racing Flywheel + Semi-racing intake / exhaust
   • Fits a lighter flywheel further reducing engine inertia. Engine control at low rpm, over slopes and road irregularities might become problematic.
   • Fits a free-flowing semi-racing exhaust system and air filter in order to further improve engine output.
   • Unlocks the semi-racing flywheel parts and semi-racing intake/exhaust sound options
8. Stage 3 engine modifications + Racing ECU
   • [...]
9. Racing Flywheel + Racing Intake / Exhaust
   • [...]
10. Stage 4 engine modifications
    • [...]

Chassis, brakes and suspensions

1. Stock
2. Sports brakes kit
3. Sports suspensions kit
4. Chassis reinforcement and Lightening 1
5. Semi-racing brakes kit
6. Semi-race suspensions
7. Chassis reinforcement and Lightening 2
8. Racing brakes kit
9. Racing suspension kit + Lightening 3
10. Chassis reinforcement 3 and Lightening 4

Transmission and drivetrain

1. Stock
2. Customizable final gear ratio
3. Sports fixed-setting LSD package
4. Drivetrain reinforcement and lightening 1
5. Drivetrain controller
6. Sports transmission (+1 gear) + wider final gear ratio selection
7. Drivetrain reinforcement and lightening 2
8. Fully customizable LSD package
9. Drivetrain reinforcement and lightening 3
10. Fully customizable Racing transmission

Tires
(each level includes previously added tires where applicable)

1. Street economy
2. Street touring
3. Street performance
   • Street mud&snow
4. Semi-slick hard
5. Semi-slick medium
6. Semi-slick soft
   • Specialized mud tires
   • Specialized snow tires
7. Racing hard
   • Racing rain
8. Racing medium
9. Racing soft
10. Racing super soft
    • Drag racing tires

What do you think?

 

[trk29]

I like it.

 

[robbo6]

Apart from racing rain needing to be appended to racing softs not hards I agree 100%.

 

[Aloha62_2]

No thanks, I would rather have complete choice over every bit I choose to buy rather then have a 'level 7 mclaren 12c'.

Although there should be a higher price difference between parts and the downsides of some options should be more apparent.

 

[shirakawaa]

Apart from racing rain needing to be appended to racing softs not hards I agree 100%.

Forgot to write that regarding tires each "level" would include all previous ones, where applicable.
Or did you mean that they should become available only after purchasing racing soft tires?

No thanks, I would rather have complete choice over every bit I choose to buy rather then have a 'level 7 mclaren 12c'.

Although there should be a higher price difference between parts and the downsides of some options should be more apparent.

As I explained summarily, the "choice" in GT5 gives a false sense of detail.
Every engine component you see, other than moving up the torque curve by small percentage and shifting it to the right by 100 or 200 rpm, doesn't do much. There are no downsides and no incentives in getting lower grade parts (example Sports air filter VS racing air filter. Or sports flywheel vs semi-racing flywheel).
Only forced induction systems give some sort of engine torque/power curves customization, currently. However nothing would prevent offering this sort of customization (making it wider, step by step) as the general "engine performance level" improves. It's not realistic, but this aspect in particular has never been realistic anyway, nor PD seems to want to make it more complex than it is.

 

[Nismo34]

👍 This is a brillliant idea. Good work.

I had a random thought a little while back too:
What if PD were to implement a system where you could build your own race cars from the ground up?

Say there is a dealership, but, unlike the one we have, It would sell bare chassis'. There would be a chassis selection for every Premium car.
After you buy the chassis, there would be a "Workshop" menu option.
In there you can add all the panels to your liking. There would be a wide range of option like materials, aero factor, etc. That way you could have Carbon fibre wide bodies and stuff.
Then, you could selct the interior, like seats, how many there are, what they are made of, what style. You can also change the Speedo and other dials, select what dials you want, select style whether Digital or analog etc.
Then you could select the drivetrain and engine. There would also be a list of engines to select and drivetrain options.
Drivetrain may be limited to the chassis I.E if you are using a F430 chassis, you can select bewteen MR or AWD. If you were using a skyline chassis, you could select between AWD and FR, If it was a Honda Civic, you could selct FF, FR or AWD.
There could also be the same option for a car you already own. You could go to the workshop with the car and strip it down. You could choose to use the stock body with a different engine/drivetrain setup or rebuild as above.
Even if its like the paint system where you can only use the engines by buying the stock car themselves, they would also have to add a livery editor even if it is only for the workshopped cars.

What you guys think?

 

[yellomello]

Great Idea

 

[shirakawaa]

👍 This is a brillliant idea. Good work.

I had a random thought a little while back too:
What if PD were to implement a system where you could build your own race cars from the ground up? [...]

I don't think they would ever allow such a detailed (maybe excessively so) system. I think they'd better include more pre-made racing modifications, but not simply in terms of more of them for more cars or more liveries (like in GT1 and GT2. However liveries in a modern GT should be customizable). The main difference would be that racing modifications with different specifications (for example: WRC, LM, Touring class, NASCAR, etc depending on the car) would be provided.

 

[Inferno251]

I think it's a good idea. The tuning shop could do with more parts and modifications available

One thing i'd like to see is the AI cars all have different and randomised modifications on each car (i.e: one car has better tyres, one is lighter, one is more powerful, etc)

This is a brillliant idea. Good work.

I had a random thought a little while back too:
What if PD were to implement a system where you could build your own race cars from the ground up?

Say there is a dealership, but, unlike the one we have, It would sell bare chassis'. There would be a chassis selection for every Premium car.
After you buy the chassis, there would be a "Workshop" menu option.
In there you can add all the panels to your liking. There would be a wide range of option like materials, aero factor, etc. That way you could have Carbon fibre wide bodies and stuff.
Then, you could selct the interior, like seats, how many there are, what they are made of, what style. You can also change the Speedo and other dials, select what dials you want, select style whether Digital or analog etc.
Then you could select the drivetrain and engine. There would also be a list of engines to select and drivetrain options.
Drivetrain may be limited to the chassis I.E if you are using a F430 chassis, you can select bewteen MR or AWD. If you were using a skyline chassis, you could select between AWD and FR, If it was a Honda Civic, you could selct FF, FR or AWD.
There could also be the same option for a car you already own. You could go to the workshop with the car and strip it down. You could choose to use the stock body with a different engine/drivetrain setup or rebuild as above.
Even if its like the paint system where you can only use the engines by buying the stock car themselves, they would also have to add a livery editor even if it is only for the workshopped cars.

What you guys think?

This would take forever to implement, but is a good idea.
I myself have had a random thought as well. Many modern cars have computer systems, and can offer different driving modes, such as sport, all weather, etc. So my idea was what if you were able to adjust the computer controls specific to each car?

 

[Wardez]

Verrry interesting Shira. Me gusta.

Only thing I would change is maybe... exhaust before ECU?

I know I certainly wouldn't be getting an ECU and have to go through all the effort to set it up before I bolted on an easy pinch of HP with a cat-back.

Yo but that's just me.

We need more of this sort of intelligent discussion, free thought, experimentation, fiction and stage presence around these forums; thanks for providing 👍

P.S: engine swaps

 

[shirakawaa]

The tuning shop could do with more parts and modifications available

This contradicts with my proposal in some ways, though.
My system makes the performance upgrading system simpler/quicker, but also more gradual and progressive by grouping different parts together in "steps". Adding more parts would mean the opposite, unless they are included (either implicitely or explicitely, ie: unlocked in the parts options) with each step.

[...]Only thing I would change is maybe... exhaust before ECU?

I thought about this too. The reason for this choice is that in my system a "stock" (level 1) performance level means also that things like the original speed limiters are retained. So, in addition of adding basic engine options and increasing power slightly, the first step would be the ideal one to remove limiters if available. A mandatory "PDI sports ECU conversion kit" could also be used as an excuse to justify certain things on carburated cars on higher steps

Thinking about it, swapping their place would make sense too, though.

 

[Skiddy]

Don't like it.

I would rather see a check box type of tuning menu. (like in Porshe Unleashed from the year 2000). With some modifications offcourse. That would make it quicker and easier to use. And an option to save setups..

 

[JDMKING13]

Nice thread I like your ideal however I would like to express how my family and buddies and I play GT5 when it comes to upgrading and tuning our cars It's on the hardcore level. We use real performance parts and match them up with GT5 tuning shop parts. Everything is not always perfect but it still gives the game much more and a better connection to the player. I will use a small example with my bros Evo 9. The first upgrade he got was an AMS Turbo back exhaust here is a description of the specs

- 3" throughout entire system. Does not "neck down" like other popular systems
- 100% Stainless Steel construction. No mild steel flanges or hangers
- All flanged conections. No band clamps or slip fits to come loose
- 20lb. Weight savings (40lbs. Compared to stock at 60lbs.)

The exhaust system gives about 20hp max with a proper tune, so knowing that when my bro goes to upgrade his car in GT5 this is what he is allowed to do buy the 1st exhaust upgrade and also by the 1st stage body chassis upgrade. Now there is some other things he has to do such as go to the weight ballast and make up the extra weight loss by making the car only correspond with the 20lb he lost with his exhaust system. So basically he needs to add weight to the car so that the weight shows he only lost 20 lb. As he drops more weight he can adjust the weight ballast. So if he got a set of bride seats he can adjust the slider further more.

When it comes to the exhaust system hp numbers because he has no ecu upgrade he cannot get the full potential of the exhaust upgrade or any performance part he adds. So knowing that he has to bring the engine power down with the limiter to 97%. The more you add without an ecu or without an ecu tune that percentage goes down. So when you here people saying I have to get my car tuned in my league that goes for the truth. This is just a very small description on how the tuning in my league. Like I said nice thread.

 

[Exorcet]

What we have now better. A leveled tuning system like this doesn't make much sense, and is hardly realistic.

I'd like it if all the parts you mentioned were available to buy individually (basically what we have now with more parts).

As for the low end tuning parts, that's not an issue with the tune system. It's an issue with race rules. Online races should allow the host to limit car and part selection. Bingo, there's a reason to buy sports mufflers now.

The main difference would be that racing modifications with different specifications (for example: WRC, LM, Touring class, NASCAR, etc depending on the car) would be provided.

I've wanted that forever. Shouldn't be limited to specific cars though.

 

[JDMKING13]

What we have now better. A leveled tuning system like this doesn't make much sense, and is hardly realistic.

I'd like it if all the parts you mentioned were available to buy individually (basically what we have now with more parts).

As for the low end tuning parts, that's not an issue with the tune system. It's an issue with race rules. Online races should allow the host to limit car and part selection. Bingo, there's a reason to buy sports mufflers now.

Exactly that's why in my league we match up real life parts with the parts in GT5 with the hp limiter and the weight ballast. Did you read my description on my league I want to perfect it but I need help and input.

 

[shirakawaa]

What we have now better. A leveled tuning system like this doesn't make much sense, and is hardly realistic.

The problem in my opinion is that what we have now isn't realistic either. You don't get to really customize the way the engine delivers power and torque. Engine drivability remains always the same, be it fully stock or fully tuned. The negative aspects of tuning have been almost completely omitted. Tuning parts for performance do not operate much differently than "plus percentages". This is very apparent when using Tuner versions of certain cars: most of the time they have a much worse power/torque delivery than their "upgraded by GT" counterparts.

Now, if PD added more tuning parts and included negative characteristics that come together with the benefits (for example like racing brake pads that have good endurance that need a certain operating temperature to operate properly, etc), if they gave a certain amount of "customization" regarding torque/power curves shaping (with cams, headers, etc) or if in general they expanded tuning possibilities in a realistic way, that would be much better. However that would increase enormously the complexity of the parts shop/tuning system. While I don't have anything against that, I doubt very much that PD would make it any more detailed, seeing that over time they've started dumbing down simplifying certain technical aspects of the game.

I'd like it if all the parts you mentioned were available to buy individually (basically what we have now with more parts).

As for the low end tuning parts, that's not an issue with the tune system. It's an issue with race rules. Online races should allow the host to limit car and part selection. Bingo, there's a reason to buy sports mufflers now.

But would people online limit the use of those parts? Again, seeing that there hardly are online rooms making use of tires other than racing softs, I doubt it. Also most people go directly for the best parts in the tuning shop. Few really ever get to use other ones.

My method would promote the use of lower end parts, because people would be forced to get them in order to upgrade to the best ones. While not completely realistic, it follows a certain logic. It would also make simpler to conceptualize the car's "tuning class" to levels rather than individual components.

 

[JDMKING13]

This is why in my league people have to follow alot of rules for example you cannot throw a last stage turbo kit on a stock car because without the fordge piston and engine internal the motor would never last. If you had a evo for example and wanted to throw a gt35r turbo kit on that would be ok however after certain miles the driver must drop he's hp numbers because the motor would be taking a beating over time.

 

[Dougill]

Its not really for me I'd rather see a system similar to what we have now but with the parts characteristics more accurately represented.

 

[Ballfar]

I'd definitely like to have more control over how parts affect performance. Such as advancing/retarding timing, modify fuel maps and boost pressure, and set the redline/fuel cutoff. I really think there should be negative effects for tuning and parts. That way a little thought has to be put into the process.

 

[Exorcet]

The only negative should be your car not meeting the rules for the race. Tuning parts don't really bring negatives in reality, which is why they are considered upgrades.

Of course there are things like turbo lag, drag from wings, and poor cold performance from Carbon brakes which should certainly be included, but a racing ECU, suspension, weight reduction, etc aren't going to bring many drawbacks.

 

[shirakawaa]

In real life there are upgrades/parts/components that increase the overall efficiency of the engine, but many other ones ones, including tuned exhaust and intake headers, cams, etc, that shift the powerband toward higher rpm causing a loss, often dramatic, of torque at lower ones and in general making low speed/rpm engine behavior harsh. This is the main reason why highly tuned engines often have a rough, high idle.

More in general, the more you try improving performance at higher rpm, the more you lose at lower ones (the engine becomes peakier). Another example are high boost turbo engines running very rich in fuel not only because of the increased power, but also because of the need to maintain down temperatures and up reliability. Very light flywheels can make idling erratic too. Reinforced copper clutch disks can make launches (especially soft ones) quite hard to perform. Tuning is often double edged sword in most cases except when manufacturing tolerances are such that it's possible to improve the overall engine efficiency with no negative effect.

In GT1 and GT2 for PSX, this was more or less correctly represented (although lag and the loss of low-end torque due to engine decompression was exaggerated on Stage 4 turbo kits). Since GT3 this strategic aspect of tuning disappeared.

As for other components you mentioned, hard suspensions increases chassis strain and wear, especially if stock silent blocks are replaced with more rigid elements (this is often done on track-day cars in order to increase driving feel/precision).

Most of the time in real life weight reduction messes up the car balance (as in most cars most of the weight that can be easily removed is in the rear, weight distribution shifts to the front), in addition, of course, of increasing internal noise and chassis resonance (although it shouldn't be an important thing in GT. It would be nice to see this too, though).

Strut bars and rollcages make the chassis stiffer, but can also transfer impact damage to one side of the car to the opposite side.

Even just fitting very grippy tires on a car not originally conceived for track use, can cause all sorts of problems (chassis, transmission, engine lubrication if it's got a wet sump, brake pump not being resilient enough even though rotors and pads might be, etc).

I maintain that the negative aspects of tuning are overlooked in GT.
However, detailed discussion about this is probably off-topic in this thread.

 

[FishHunters]

I like it too! I would also add a Vettle/Loeb style tutorial to help the "un-initiated" understand what each does, and how it can help performance. Furthermore, there should be a "problem-solving" series of small tutorials. For example. Lets say my car doesn't handle well in turns. I should be able to go to a tutorial that teaches me how to address that.

All these things we're talking about cost "disk" space. However, just like the 8GB addition to our hard drive, I feel PD can do the same thing with some of the things we're asking. Even as DLC.

 

[IceMan PJN]

What do you think?

I think it does basically nothing to improve the upgrading and tuning. If PD really wants to improve the whole system, it needs to just imitate Forza. Forza has been doing this much better for years.

I was starting to go into a heap of detail explaining, but honestly I just don't feel like typing out a small novel about how to do it right.

 

[Exorcet]

The problem in my opinion is that what we have now isn't realistic either. You don't get to really customize the way the engine delivers power and torque. Engine drivability remains always the same, be it fully stock or fully tuned.

Not necessarily unrealistic. If you pour a lot of money into a car, you could probably improve it substantially while keeping negatives to a minimum. GT's tuning shop may not charge realistic prices for that level of tuning, but that's fine with me. The performance realism matter, the financial does not at all to me.

Also things like engine customization could just be added by giving us setting for the already in game ECU, turbos, etc.

Now, if PD added more tuning parts and included negative characteristics that come together with the benefits (for example like racing brake pads that have good endurance that need a certain operating temperature to operate properly, etc), if they gave a certain amount of "customization" regarding torque/power curves shaping (with cams, headers, etc) or if in general they expanded tuning possibilities in a realistic way, that would be much better. However that would increase enormously the complexity of the parts shop/tuning system. While I don't have anything against that, I doubt very much that PD would make it any more detailed, seeing that over time they've started dumbing down simplifying certain technical aspects of the game.

But would people online limit the use of those parts? Again, seeing that there hardly are online rooms making use of tires other than racing softs, I doubt it. Also most people go directly for the best parts in the tuning shop. Few really ever get to use other ones.

I'd use them and so would a handful of other people. That's enough. There's no need to force people to use things they don't want to. Also, all the people who don't want to would just burn their way to the top tunes.

On the negative characteristics, I say keep the "plus" upgrade parts, but also add new less ideal tuning parts that people could use by choice. Again, it won't be popular most likely, but it does not need to be.

My method would promote the use of lower end parts, because people would be forced to get them in order to upgrade to the best ones. While not completely realistic, it follows a certain logic. It would also make simpler to conceptualize the car's "tuning class" to levels rather than individual components.

IMO, PP is the only tuning level measurement needed. Ideally, I'd like to see things like "allow/disallow racing/semi-racing/sport clutch or high cl rear wing/med cl rear wing, etc though. There is a whole lot of things that could be added to GT's tuning system.

Tuning is often double edged sword in most cases except when manufacturing tolerances are such that it's possible to improve the overall engine efficiency with no negative effect.


I maintain that the negative aspects of tuning are overlooked in GT.
However, detailed discussion about this is probably off-topic in this thread.

Again, depends on what you think GT tuning should represent. I have no problems with GT tuning being akin to a multimillion dollar race team taking a regular car and tuning it to perfection for whatever reason. Some people just tuning to be average tuning shops. The lack of substantial negative tuning effects isn't necessarily that unrealistic and I don't want to give up the current modifications. I am completely willing to see more tradeoff based tunes along side the old though. Just not with a leveling system.

 

[TheFlyingKiwi]

No all this game needs in a tuning menu is more parts. They are way to simple so when you buy you don't exactly understand what your getting.
- It also needs more suspension options so that you can change the entire geometry.
- A more robust selection of drivetrain and transmission mechanisms (dual clutch and changing the drivetrain all together RWD FWD etc.).
-Tires need a big upgrade but that's a different story.
- Different computers for engine mapping as well as the opportunity to adjust the engine mapping.
- Air restrictors to limit the power need to be included instead of the electronic ones. Can we also have an option to remove air restrictors on racing cars like LMP's and Formula cars.
- More options for forced induction, twin turbos would be nice.
- Brake options
- weight reduction needs an update on how each part increases/decreases weight.
- Fuel tanks to be changed would be an icing on the cake.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I like to see 'matched' sort of 'tuning sets' as an option, perhaps through the 'tuner shops.' So you get a suspension, brake, tire, and powertrain package that are balanced nicely. Sometimes I would rather just drive a nicely sorted car than try to tune it myself, knowing that I could probably make it better if I spent hours and hours tuning. Which is annoying.

 

[plate88]

I like the idea:tup: Yes, people go for for the best parts and especially for those stupid racing soft tires right away. GT5 to me, is best played on no more than sports tires(except for race cars-racing hard).

I like the idea of having negative effects for performance parts. In real life when upgrading, when you change something it will no doubt effect something else. Example, if you add supercharger/turbo you will no doubt have to upgrade fuel system and computer.

The only thing about this upgrade system is it would have to be more real world pricing. All those different tiers of upgrades with current GT5 pricing would be a pain in the arse.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Any system would be better than the current system IMO. The current system doesn't take into account the limitations of the car (e.g. Sports catalyst on a Kübelwagen ) and it's not possible to overtune a car either (e.g. cars will always remain handling excellent, even when adding another 400HP on a stock suspension). Add to that the cumbersome menus and here we have yet another poorly implemented feature.

I think a system as proposed by the OP would work well, especially since other games already have similar systems and they have proven to work well. I have been playing Shift 2 lately and the tuning/upgrade system there is way superior to GT5s. Upgrading is as simple as hitting 'X' on the part, and again to take it off (credits are returned instantaniously too, so it really invites you to try different things). The performance effect (speed, power, torque, acceleration, braking distance, etc.) is also shown before actually fitting it. And it is very much possible to overtune a car in S2U, making it very hard to drive. And don't even get me started on having live telemetry (showing multiple tyre temperatures per tyre, suspension travel, etc. etc.) and adjusting your setup on the fly.

I heard people propose things like proper brake fading/warmup and suspension geometry settings as well as more info on tyre temperature. Sounds good (and very much needed), but I doubt the current physics engine even supports those things.

But first things first, an extensive overhaul of the upgrade/tuning is not very likely to happen. So I'd settle for a more friendly UI at this time.

 

[Willfred_1]

I think they ought to Be realistic on the tuning options I've before put ecu on the 60's and 70's cars when they don't use an ecu.
I also would like to see the weight reduction like in su2 when you remove weight it visually does strip the car inside small things like this would make it more realistic.
The tuning in the shift series is good because u can put parts on easily and just quickly set it up or if u want you can fine tune all the settings by using this system you could implement more realistic parts
To be honest I would say the tuning system is what pd should use a basis for improving on

 

[JDMKING13]

The only negative should be your car not meeting the rules for the race. Tuning parts don't really bring negatives in reality, which is why they are considered upgrades.

Of course there are things like turbo lag, drag from wings, and poor cold performance from Carbon brakes which should certainly be included, but a racing ECU, suspension, weight reduction, etc aren't going to bring many drawbacks.

In my league if you don't have the correct setup it can have a negative effect on your car for example if a person with a evo 9 has the gt35r turbo(second turbo upgrade in the tuning shop) and never got fordge internals after a set amount of miles, that person in my league would have to drop his HP numbers down the longer he takes running on a stock block the more HP he would loose. I see many people not liking the tuning options in gt5 and I could understand what they mean, however I love how you can adjust HP and weight. With these tools my buddies and I have a realistic tuning system going on. I would love to see more individual parts like cams for sell , but with my current upgrading system you can make up for the cams. Ex find the cams you want and the numbers they give you. With this you would be able to buy the engine upgrade 2 however you must go back and adjust the power to the HP the cams gave your car.