PS4... Is this our issue?

Discussion in 'Project CARS 2' started by simsimsheree, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

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    project-cars-2-browse-online-L.png

    Note the upper left corner. 208 online lobbies. I've never seen more than 20-30 on PS4. Usually with only a handful or so with more than 5 cars in them.

    This might have a lot to do with why PC players seem content and fail to understand the issues that seem so important to console players. With such a tiny player base by comparison, finding a clean room in the console lobby, especially now SMS removed the last defense against trolls by nixing host kick options, is getting close to impossible.

    Anyone trying to delude themselves that all is good on the console side needs to see this. The player base is available, GTS and Forza sport numbers that dwarf this. But SMS don't want to go after them (or at least their every decision on how to design their online multiplayer system has worked actively against it).

    Perhaps if more of us understood the huge gap between the console players and the PC ones, we might at last understand how important it is to make the transition from GT or Forza to PC more console friendly..?

    BTW, note the room names.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  2. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    The little I've done in public online I've noticed more than 20 - 30 rooms and multiple rooms with more than 5 drivers in.

    On consoles (ps4) you have to refresh the page (as I'm sure your aware) as it only shows 20 rooms at a time which is why the top left only shows 20 not a total amount like pc.
    There's obviously a reason for it and why it won't change, not saying its perfect either.
     
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  3. pyrates

    pyrates Premium

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    Even if you do refresh there aren't much more. It's maybe 25 tops 30 of which 20 are shown. Still very few and simsimsheree is right with this observation.
     
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  4. hasslemoff

    hasslemoff Premium

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    Must be the time and day when Ive looked as there seems to be more than 20 - 30 rooms. Sunday night around 9pm gmt.
     
  5. coltsjugg

    coltsjugg

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    There might be 20-30 rooms but 15 are full of idiots. Booting them definitely works though.
     
  6. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Since the Le Mans update, I decided to give pcars another go after setting it aside after getting beyond frustrated with online play. This time around, I’ve been mostly focused on single player.

    For fun though, I decided to check the open lobby last night, around 7pm PST. It was dead. There was a grand total of 6 rooms, 2 of which were GT3. One room was 7/16 racing, the other was 3/16 with 1 min of quali left. The other 4 rooms were single players in random cars.

    So is casual open lobby play in the game dead?? Are there any times of day/week that the open lobby gets active? I gave up on vintage racing the open lobby years ago with PCARS1, all I go for now is GT3.

    Or did the open lobby community get so toxic that everyone has retreated to private sessions??

    Either way, it’s such a shame to see the lobby so empty. Really wish SMS would have beta tested online before the game went live, and wish they would have addressed people’s concerns quickly - instead of being more concerned about the tone or language that people sharing their issues were using. Focused to much on how people were saying things, not what they were saying. Pissed people off by acting like a kindergarten teacher, and pissed them off more by not fixing issues.

    I worry for the future of this franchise, what with many other titles getting stronger and stronger, FIA teaming up with Forza for the WEC series....really don’t know where this game will fit in.
     
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  7. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

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    How's that working for you since SMS nixed host booting? :banghead:

    And no, there is not a 20 room limit to the total rooms online count on console. Yes, if there are more you need to scroll down, but all of us have seen (at its busiest times) the lobby count going up to 30, sometimes beyond. Notice how small the vertical scroll bar is on the PC picture, and how big yours is on console. What you see in the top left hand corner IS all available public rooms. And all you have to do to see the rest is scroll down.

    And yes, we all know that full rooms don't get counted. But neither (AFAIK) do the PC rooms. NONE of those displayed in the screengrab were full, either.

    Bottom line... Not only evidence like this, but total forum traffic at SMS's forum (and PS4 sub-forum) seem to indicate the same degree of imbalance. And I guarantee no-one has EVER seen 200 open public rooms on a console. Ever.

    BTW, note that the lobby is filtered for Race rooms only.

    We can put this to bed easily. Go count how many race lobbies are up at any time, and get PC players to do the same. Let's whip 'em out and see who's is longer! Post your results on this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  8. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

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    Check out this thread... https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ps4-is-this-our-issue.379478/

    And yes, SMS have acted like a bunch of snowflakes, melting as heat was applied. With console numbers like these, I can see PC2 going the way of Shift. Coincidentally, made by many from SMS, and ultimately doomed to only two editions as the devs failed to address issues and abandoned by players when it became evident it never would get fixed.

    I guess you can't fix complacent incompetence...
     
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  9. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

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    RETRACTION... (Sorry mods, I need to do this on a separate post so you all can see my mistake earlier, LOL. I am not the sort of person to edit away my mistakes!)

    I was wrong. Yes, you can only see 20 at a time. Refreshing brings up a different group. But not completely different. It depends on how you sort. I usually sort by number in room. Refreshes sometimes brings up a few different rooms, sometimes not. But never a total new batch. So, at best, 40 rooms. It's 6:40pm CST as I write this. No matter how many times I refresh, there are no more than four rooms with more than 6 drivers.

    I am utterly confused... How on earth does this way of displaying available rooms make any sense at all?
     
  10. twitcher

    twitcher

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    Have you ever tried searching by vehicle category, and scrolling through each one?

    Going back to pcars1 days, I quickly realized there was a limit of 20 lobbies that would display at one time. I could refresh as often as I wanted, but usually, the same lobbies would come up with each refresh. Same thing with the pCARS2 open lobby, it behaved much the same way (one of the dozens of “imperfect things” in pc1 that seemed to have been copied straight to pc2). Occasionally, 1, 2, maybe up to 4 lobbies would change - majority of the time these changes occurred, it was just swapping one single player with rediculous settings lobby for a different single player with rediculous settings lobby).

    In both my pcars1 and pCARS2 experience, it was obvious from the very jump that GT3 was the category for majority of the racing. I’ve always been one who likes the other stuff as well though, especially the Vintage GT stuff.

    Wanting to race these other catagories caused me to start searching the open lobby, by category, very frequently. In both games, after months of checking each catagory individually, it became pretty clear that there just wasn’t a whole lot going on in the open lobby. Regardless if the main search page would only show 20 lobbies, if I went through each catagory and added up all the rooms I saw, it would be between 20 and 30 lobbies during peak hours, dwindling to a handful of GT3 lobbies, accompanied by the usual single player randomness in off hours.


    So what would I consider peak hours? I live in BC Canada, so I’m on PST. With the amount of hours I sunk into both pc1 and pc2 online, it became clear that the population fluctuated based on the European day. Prime time gaming hours for European countries is when there is both the most quantity of lobbies, and variety of lobbies. If I logged on between 6-10am on weekends, that’s when the open lobby was at its best. It’s evening in Europe, midday on the east coast, crack of dawn out here. Sometimes I’d play literally all day, and could notice a steady decline in the quantity and variety of lobbies as the day got later.

    There was usually a smaller, but consistent second wave of decent lobbies in the late afternoon, early evening, which is prime time gaming hours on the east coast. But again, as the night gets later, the server population would fall off. By 10pm pst, it would be pretty quiet. It’s around this time that there would almost always be a one or two standard Aussie V8s at Bathurst lobbies - these were hit or miss.

    That became the standard pattern though, in both games. And like I said, catagory by catagory, during peak European hours, the most I could find was 30ish lobbies; and of those 30, it would be a good day if 15 of them had more than 5 people each. It’s all anecdotal and I didn’t keep stats, but I sunk a lot of hours into both games. Well over 1000 online races in pc1, and I’m probably around 700ish now in pc2....can’t tell for sure, as I deleted my file a while back, started over from scratch on my second go at the game 4-5 months ago. Lol when I was on here complaining about the rating system after release, players with 30 online races were telling me “it works fine” when I was at over 300 races started, some 500+ quali session start). Didn’t start my online rating from scratch though haha. The reason I quit the first time was because of getting screwed by the rating system - I was being prevented from getting in those Vintage GT races on Sunday morning because my rating was in the toilet from having done GT3 calamity the night before (and losing 50 points for DCing, which happened about every other lobby lol). When I came back, I had to start at 1200 and claw my way back to 1550, before going on another slide.


    If we’re talking about things that effect the online lobby, I think the online rating is worth mentioning. It splits the online community up for obvious reasons, and some of them good - I prefer to race in lobbies where I know which players har some experience with the game.

    On top of splitting the community though, I think it tends to funnel the community into the GT3 only direction. For whatever reason, there aren’t very many lobbies with the driver rating set to OFF, and the few that do have it off are usually gong-show, corner cutting crash fests. So it’s really difficult to find a clean, but casual lobby.

    In the lobbies with the rating turned on, people take that stuff serious. That’s cool if I’m in a take it serious mood, and perhaps more important in a car that I’m both comfortable and fast (relative term here) with. However, if I want to jump into a lobby in a catagory or car I’m not familiar with, I basically know I’m going to take a hit on my license. If I take too many hits on my license, then I can’t get into clean GT3 rooms, or other weekend morning Vintage rooms.

    I remember a Road G lobby at RBR short I joined. It was a nearly full lobby, and basically everyone in the room was using the 2002 Turbo, the Mustang, or the 86, I think there was one truck. So, me being me, wanting to “add some variety to the grid”, I pick the Escort. Hadn’t driven the car since pcars1, but though what the heck, I love this little car (I wonder why no one else is using it?). I get into the lobby with only a couple minutes to spare, enough time to make a few quick adjustments. I don’t bother qualifying, I’m ok with starting at the back, as it was something like a 10 or 12 lap race...two digits for sure. Race starts, and the field is gone, bye bye. I knew the Escort was the “under powered, light weight” car of the group, but my god I think they exaggerated the underpoweredness (the altitude didn’t help either). So, in a full lobby where many of the other drivers had a lower rating than me, I finished next to last (even though there was terrible driving up ahead....terrible!!!), and lost between 20 and 30 points on my license. Pretty salty about it, but whatever. I leave that lobby after the race, go look for another one....and see a Vintage GTA lobby that I can’t get in, by some 10 points. At that point, for that day, I remember I just gave up. Turned the game off and went to do something else. I wasn’t so much fuming mad or anything like that, it was more just a feeling of, “I give up”.

    The lesson I took out of that experience was, “only race online in a car you have setup, and have checked the bop against the rest of the catagory”. Easy enough to say, pretty time consuming in practice. It’s also pretty discouraging to work on a tune for a car which you only get to race once in a blue moon. This is when I started to feel the rating system funnelling me to GT3, as it’s the only thing that’s common, so it feels like the only catagory worth spending time and effort on.



    Said it before, but this game has so much potential that’s being wasted because, while it has all the right pieces, they don’t quite fit together properly.

    I think it’s pretty obvious that GT3, sprint race, track shuffle lobbies (mandatory stop optional) are the most popular. If sms would have some dedicated servers, and run these lobbies like you see in an FPS game, I think people would be all over it. The game automatically puts you in full lobbies, shuffles players around to balance lobbies if necessary, closes empty rooms, etc. Then have the standard 10-15 min quali, followed by a 10-15 minute race. You could have a variety of rooms, some with more authentic settings, some more arcade. Keep “vote to kick” so the room can kick bad drivers. Have rooms for the popular catagories like GT3 open all the time, and then maybe have a small selection of catagories that rotate by the day or week (eg have one Road lobby, rotate through the various road catagories once per week or something).

    On top of that, have longer duration races that start at a scheduled time. For instance hour long races, where the lobby starts every second hour, on the hour. Half hour practice, half hour quali, hour long race. If you had 12 lobbies like this, with the start times offset by 10 minutes, there would be a new “endurance race” for players to enter every 10 minutes.

    Off course, still have custom lobbies, both public and private.

    It’s just that to me, it’s pretty obvious most people in the open lobby are looking for some sort of quick race, shuffle format. I am convinced that SMS is 100% in the dark as to how much effort and dedication it takes to run a good online lobby, and how much the “good racers” in the comminity rely on a very small number of people to host these lobbies. Back when I was frequent in this game, aside from picking up on the patterns in server population, I came to recognize the names of the people who were consistently hosting the good, full lobbies, night after night. It was always the same people...and when they would log off for the night, either everyone else would also log off, or would just sort of dispers into groups of 3/4, or all end up back doing Monza over and over and over and over again. You jump out of the lobby, see if the next “regular good host” had logged in. If yes, quickly join their lobby, if no, go do another 5 lapper at Monza. Same thing, night after night after night.


    So ya, that’s how I ended up putting the game down. I just came back to check out the Le Mans dlc, happy I did....but I don’t really see myself getting back into frequenting the open lobby.
     
  11. user3392345

    user3392345

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    What i learned so far, in almost every racing game, create a room, turn off all helpers, choose something else then gt3 class and the chances getting high that no chimps will join :)
     
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  12. HammyMansell

    HammyMansell

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    [​IMG]

    Thank god.....But plenty of room for Hamsters though! :D :dopey:
     
  13. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Switch the licence requirement on (even at the basic level) as well and bingo.
     
  14. jake2013guy

    jake2013guy

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    I think you should hear the story regarding EA and Ian Bell/SMS. It's a rather interesting one. And actually, they had signed a deal to make NFS Shift 3 which was cancelled because EA for an unknown EA reason.
     
  15. Flash_Noddy

    Flash_Noddy

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    I think you may have been on at a quiet time or something. I'm on all the time and it seems as active as ever. The issue I have noticed is the browser being terrible for showing available lobbies, needing repeated refreshes to find anything.
    But yeah I don't see the inactivity you've mentioned at all.
    I wouldn't worry about Forza though, they always made efforts to get endurance licenses and make feckin terrible use of them.
     
  16. twitcher

    twitcher

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    This isn’t just Forza getting a bunch of WEC licenses so they can have the cars in the game.

    The Automobile Club de l’Ouest (ACO) has teamed up with the Motorsport Network (Motorsport.com, Autosport.com, JAonF1.com, James Allen is the chairman, I believe Zak Brown used to have a top role before moving onto McLaren) to create the official WEC eSports Championship, using Forza as their chosen platform.

    The series will kick off this summer in England when the WEC heads to Silverstone.

    https://www.autosport.com/gaming/news/136756/aco-to-launch-le-mans-esports-series

    If you go into your main career menu in pCARS2, the ticket at the bottom with the news stories...that’s Autosport! So at one point, Autosport had an affiliation with sms, but have since moved on to other things.
     
  17. Sentry87

    Sentry87

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    Such a shame, doubt Forza can do any endurance licensing any justice. May be a blessing in disguise Project Cars has been a jack of all trades for almost all disciplines, which is great. You can do almost all Blancpain, half IMSA, most of WEC, Third of Indy and F1. Though they're masters of none, missing some important tracks.
     
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  18. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    Seriously! Why on earth would they do that?

    I remember that Ian Bell made the false assumption that it wouldn't even be allowed on console for P CARS 1, & we had to reason with him that it was. Low & behold the option was added shortly afterwards.

    Here's the post in question: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...-for-rammers&p=1146694&viewfull=1#post1146694

    Announcement that kick option will be added: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/sh...-for-rammers&p=1148607&viewfull=1#post1148607
     
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  19. Sloppy Shades

    Sloppy Shades Premium

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    You fight hard for something, present overwhelming facts to support it, are supported by the majority of forum members, finally GET the improvement , it works great, everyone loves it (except those getting kicked-good riddance) and then it gets taken away with no notice (no more patch notes).
    Is there a face-palm emoticon here?
     
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  20. simsimsheree

    simsimsheree

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    The problem listening to Ian Bell finding a way to blame EA for problems with Shift is, now his fate is in his own hands, and PC2 is no less buggy and has many of the same issues that plagued Shift. Who is he going to blame this time? Hearing one side of a blame game is hardly getting the whole picture, is it? Be interesting to hear EA's unvarnished account of their dealings with Mr. Bell for some balance...

    PC1's lobby system on console was roundly criticized, and doesn't seem to be improved in the slightest.

    If console users need any more proof that ProjectCars is a PC game and we are simply a poorly served cash cow for their continued development of features we won't get, it is this. Yes, if these issues plagued all console games, he'd have a leg to stand on. But they don't...

    GTS has room names. GTS shows ALL available rooms. GTS has no issues with hosts kicking. PC2 needs a total lobby rewrite, preferably by someone who knows more about consoles development than they know about PC's.

    At the very minimum, PC2's lobby display needs the TOTAL open rooms available displayed in the top left, even if they can't figure out how to display more than 20 of them to a page. When you sort by players in a room, that first page should be the busiest rooms out of ALL the available rooms, not just of the apparently random grabbing of 20 rooms out of however many there are (which you will never know!). Same with sorting by car category (and sorting by room rating needs to be added)...

    Full rooms should be displayed (so you can keep an eye on them if you want to join and jump in if someone leaves). At least as an option in the lobby filters.

    The problem, as I see it, is SMS want the money console players bring them. But want to do the absolute minimum for it, and if we suffer as a consequence, too :censored: bad! If they cannot port the PC's lobby as is, design us a new one that works...
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  21. Flash_Noddy

    Flash_Noddy

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    Preach brother!
     
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  22. jake2013guy

    jake2013guy

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    Hey. If you want a developer to listen to your suggestions, you've got to stop slagging them off. I've noticed this in the final paragraph especially but it has appeared in other parts. These comments add nothing to the discussion and possibly prevents your discussion from taking place. Sometimes, your posts are actually an interesting read with interesting suggestions. But slagging the developer off just turns me off it. Imagine how a developer feels when I'm frustrated by it.

    Another example.
     
  23. FOG-Smokebeer

    FOG-Smokebeer

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    Give up m8 the dudes passive aggressive even when trying to help him he cant help but have a dig @ someone
     
  24. jake2013guy

    jake2013guy

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    True. I'm just fed up with it. Though he'll label me a PC2 fanboy for it.
     
  25. Flash_Noddy

    Flash_Noddy

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    Passive aggressive or not, he's right. The console ports are a mess and SMS don't seem interested in fixing it.
     
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  26. The_American

    The_American Premium

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    In business there's a rule: "feed your winners, starve your losers."
     
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  27. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    I don't understand what you mean by that; what are you trying to say? Do you mean that SMS see console users as "losers" & thus think it's OK to starve us of support?


    :confused:
     
  28. twitcher

    twitcher

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    I’m assuming there were fewer sales on console, and sms probably see less activity on console compared to PC (if they monitor online activity at all, I’m assuming they must in some capacity). If this is the case, they would probably be more interested in servicing their largest community.

    It makes sense, buuuut....

    One would think the ultimate goal would be to grow the brand on all platforms, or why bother with the consoles to begin with? The current approach isn’t going to help sales of pcars3 on console, if there is a pc3 and if it gets ported.

    Perhaps sms have given up on console, maybe it’s too limited for where they want to go with things like dynamic whether, live track, etc. If they do go PC exclusive in the future, they’re competing against some pretty big fish in the likes of iRacing, whereas on console, they could have been the sim racing game while everything else, including Forza and GTS, are much closer to arcade games.
     
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  29. Chikane

    Chikane

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    If pcars 3 is announce as a pc exclusive it would break my heart :(

    Pcars is the only sim i like and play on consoles ( now now i have tried ac and gts and i didn't like them)
    plus gts doesn't have the p1 so i could careless about gts either way
    :rolleyes:
     
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  30. The_American

    The_American Premium

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    In business terms it means if a product is failing then do not support it, let it fail. If a product is winning then support it more.