Purists racing in cockpit view vs exterior views

  • Thread starter Paulzx
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I've come to learn over the years that majority of people don't like a challenge when it comes to online racing. They want the easiest view with the stickiest tires with unrealistic driving assist.
The great thing about lobbies is you can force people to drive without those crutches and make the racing much more challenging.

I fully agree with you that the option for cockpit view only should be added to the lobby features. It's one of the best views to drive from and really makes you become a better driver. Now in GTS they have added the sun glare on the front window and depending on the time of day it can be a real challenge to see out of.
I'm all for it and I would definitely seek out those type of view races only.
 
Voodoovaj
For who? If you like cockpit, you get to use it. If you don't, it's forced down your throat. How is that a "great option"?
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Just a lobby option, other games have it if I remember correctly. So if people want to run a "real settings" lobby / user-made race series they have the option to restrict the camera. The game currently lets you set the car aid levels, etc, so would be a good addition.

As an aside, use the radar to compensate for the lack of peripheral vision.

UGA95
View attachment 714886
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You're half right I think, that real picture won't look like that from the eyes of the driver, it's just a wide-angle lens.

EDIT: Then again our own vision is pretty wide, hmm, just not much of it is actually detailed. It would be great to have proper FOV adjustments 100%.
 
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The cockpit view in GT has always been nothing like reality, because the aperture is very small and you don't really notice the dash/pillars anyway in RL when you are looking far ahead down the track. Also, you can't see the exits of hairpins either (depending on what side) because you can't look out through the side window.

A better setup for single screen users would be to put the binnacle in the immediate foreground together with the appropriate left of right hand pillar and then automatically rotate the view as you enter corners so you can see all exits.

And the three screen users would be better with just two, where the screen split of the TV frames super-impose where the pillar is and you just set your two screens up for right or left hand drive.
 
Paulzx
This is possibly the one thing that takes the shine off this game for me, because I'm more of a sim racing purist (and I know there are some others on here too), I drive every car from cockpit view. It's authentic, immersive, and this game in particular offers probably the best visually modelled cockpit views. I've been racing cockpit view for many years so it's quite instinctive. I know I sacrifice a small amount of time against others this way but generally I can hold my own easily. When it comes to the faster players out there, it does become a bit uncompetitive though, and most of the opposition do not race in this view because the general online mentality is to gain maximum advantage over any other factor.

People I race with have said they have tried cockpit view but can't get used to it. This is probably because too many alternative views are offered. I know GT Sport isn't exactly a hardcore sim but back in the day when Geoff Crammond released his F1 games, there was ONLY cockpit view, and everyone had to use it. That may be too much to deal with for todays gamers but very least we should have an option to lock the view in a lobby like Project Cars does, and offer bigger rewards to those who use this view, to encourage more people to play the way it should be played.

I know some will say they want to be allowed to use what ever view they want etc etc but frankly it's way too easy with an external view but because most people use that, it eventually forces us all to, if you really want to compete, and that is unfortunate I think because it kind of renders the cockpit view as pointless.

It's just my personal thing at the end of the day because I feel that cockpit view isn't really catered for, for players that want to use it - against other players using it because the masses are all using bumper view or the dial view. How many real life racing drivers sit on the bonnet of their cars or on the roof to drive...of course you would get a better view, but it's bit bogus really, it just feels like an acrcade game to me in those views.

If you could lock it, or there were lobby's just for cockpit view, you would know everyone has the same deal. I know the more sim orientated players will sympathise with me on this.
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Cockpit view isn't really that "authentic" though. In real life, your field of vision is much less restricted. But I do use cockpit view when racing offline for fun. It does feel more immersive.
 
UGA95
Not even close

View attachment 714887

View attachment 714886

Saying your view from the cockpit in GTS isn't more restricted than in real life is just silly.
This is basically cockpit view in GTS:

View attachment 714889



No it wouldn't
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The seat position is not the issue with GTS's camera. Its that for the vast majority of screen / distance combinations the angle is far wider than a driver would realistically see.

Even the real world shot you have included is not even close to the view a driver would have in reality.

This is a rough breakdown of human fields of view.

main-qimg-98480834abf7f027fff333f8798899dc-c


The real car shot is a lot wider than the 60 degree 3D field of view most humans have, and a lot wider than the 30degree field of view than humans focus on.

The default FOV on most titles is around 80 to 90 degree (horizontal), which provides a nice wide view, but messes with corner radius perception, flattens elevations and would only be right if you were sat around two and a half feet from a 100" screen (as you would then need to move your head to see the peripheral parts.

GTS is not alone in this, most console titles have a default FOV that is too wide for the majority of peoples set-ups, and unfortunately far, far too few titles on console allow you to adjust your FOV.

This video explains why this is the case (note it is based around PC titles):



and for those titles you can adjust FOV for, this calculator allows you to get it set correctly.

http://www.projectimmersion.com/fov/index.php

This thread however has given my an idea for a video, I'm going to take a look at how the FOV affects corner radius perception and elevation, as well as the current state of FOV options for PS4 titles.
 
Cockpit cam is definitely cool. I appreciate the thought behind it. I switch to it from time to time to change things up in offline races, but bumper cam is my go-to for online races. I prefer it over everything else because it doesn't mess with my depth perception and is less restrictive. I prefer a wider view and I also like having a dedicated rearview mirror. The HUD configuration is also best in bumper cam.
 
Scaff
The seat position is not the issue with GTS's camera. Its that for the vast majority of screen / distance combinations the angle is far wider than a driver would realistically see.

Even the real world shot you have included is not even close to the view a driver would have in reality.

This is a rough breakdown of human fields of view.

main-qimg-98480834abf7f027fff333f8798899dc-c


The real car shot is a lot wider than the 60 degree 3D field of view most humans have, and a lot wider than the 30degree field of view than humans focus on.

The default FOV on most titles is around 80 to 90 degree (horizontal), which provides a nice wide view, but messes with corner radius perception, flattens elevations and would only be right if you were sat around two and a half feet from a 100" screen (as you would then need to move your head to see the peripheral parts.

GTS is not alone in this, most console titles have a default FOV that is too wide for the majority of peoples set-ups, and unfortunately far, far too few titles on console allow you to adjust your FOV.

This video explains why this is the case (note it is based around PC titles):



and for those titles you can adjust FOV for, this calculator allows you to get it set correctly.

http://www.projectimmersion.com/fov/index.php

This thread however has given my an idea for a video, I'm going to take a look at how the FOV affects corner radius perception and elevation, as well as the current state of FOV options for PS4 titles.
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Can you confirm if the FOV number settings in PCARS2 are the exact degree amounts? I've always been curious about that.
 
'Enforcing' a particular view outside private lobbies is a non-starter in my view, absolutely crazy idea, people play how they play and use what they enjoy. I also don't subscribe to the view adding a challenge for 'real racers', it may be more authentic and I respect that but forcing people away from their preference doesn't equate to making them better at the game in my opinion. Besides, I love using cockpit view when it is good (PCars, Dirt Rally, Dirt 4, DriveClub) but the cockpit view in GT Sport is just not fit for purpose in most cases. The FOV is poorly implemented and renders the view, mirrors and 'feel' with the road useless.

Project Cars for example typically has a better in-car view as default, then you can look side to side (which in GT Sport often leads to looking behind you) and it also has a zoom into corner function where your view moves towards upcoming corner as you turn which is very useful.

The last thing Sport mode needs is more people who don't know what is around them, I can imagine the carnage at Monza in Gr.1 with everyone in cockpit view, it'd be like a herd of mad, blind donkeys at the 1st chicane!

I'm bumper cam all the way in GTS.
 
I don't see what's gained.

For those who use cockpit, there's a fuzzy good feeling, I suppose, in the knowledge that others are also using the cockpit view, but there would be nothing tangibly different. To everyone else, there's the PITA of being forced to use a view that you aren't accustomed to.

Personally, I dislike playing in the cockpit view because I simply have no idea where the other cars are. So many of the mirrors in the cockpit view are obscured and the radar, being off to one side, is too far over for me to use it effectively. I would love to use cockpit view, but I have too many unintended collisions.
 
DesertPenguin
Can you confirm if the FOV number settings in PCARS2 are the exact degree amounts? I've always been curious about that.
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They are, and are on a horizontal scale, while ACs are again in degrees but are on a vertical scale.

As an example I have a 50" screen, and my eyes (when I'm sat in the rig) are 45" from it. as such my FOV in PC2 is 52 degrees horizontal, while in AC its 31 degrees vertical.
 
Rinsky
I've come to learn over the years that majority of people don't like a challenge when it comes to online racing. They want the easiest view with the stickiest tires with unrealistic driving assist.
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In lobbies, perhaps, in Sport mode? I don't think so.

The whole point of sport mode is the challenge (ignoring the glitchers).
 
I fully support forced cockpit view.

But, with the stipulation of people no longer being able to complain about getting ran into.
 
zzz_pt
Cockpit view in GT is ridiculous. In PC2 I only use cockpit view because you can tweak it like you want and the FOV is way better.

In real life you have periferal vision while driving a car. In GTS you lose all of that and driving door to door with someone else is way more difficult than IRL or other games ftm.

Have you tried driving the 919 in cockpit view? Each time you turn the wheel, the hands block your view completely.

I'd be OK with the option to allow cockpit only in lobbies but not in sport mode.
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This covers it pretty much. The cockpit view option in all GT games so far is the very definition of arcade and the very opposite of sim. Other games like AC or PC1/2 offer and embarassing level of options from both cockpit and other views, to enable users to customize their experience and make it comfortable and efficient. The lack of an FOV adjustment alone ruins the cockpit view option in GTS. I'd have no trouble with having it forced on as an option in a private lobby but not in Sport Mode, at least not until it's brought up to par with other games.
 
NJ72
In lobbies, perhaps, in Sport mode? I don't think so.

The whole point of sport mode is the challenge (ignoring the glitchers).
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Yes im only referring to lobbies. Right now about 99% of the rooms are set up with no limits on anything but car class.
 
Scaff
They are, and are on a horizontal scale, while ACs are again in degrees but are on a vertical scale.

As an example I have a 50" screen, and my eyes (when I'm sat in the rig) are 45" from it. as such my FOV in PC2 is 52 degrees horizontal, while in AC its 31 degrees vertical.
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Awesome. I'm using a 32" screen and my eyes when in rig are also 45" away. I wonder what my FOV should be. I can't use the site becuase my computer can't use the version of Adobe it needs.
 
MikeV27
pretty much this
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I'm slowly starting to build a list of players who I've run into and all are looking for more challenging lobby races.
We are definitely out there its just a matter of getting everyone online at the same time.
 
Robben
Absolutely disagree. I get that you are saying it is more realistic but it's so restrictive in comparison to being in a real cockpit where you can see 3 mirrors and have a peripheral vision out of your side windows, can quickly glance etc. I use chase cam as I need to see what and who is around me, as well as the angle of the car. Being a pad user, you get basically no feedback as to what direction the car is in and if it is losing traction. In cockpit view it's basically like trying to drive a car looking through a postbox.

Fair enough if you want 'cockpit only' lobbies, but forcibly restricting Sport Mode races would be unfair.
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I don't want to force certain camera views down people's throats. So no, don't force it.

But one thing I noticed when driving for real: taking a quick glance at the side mirrors is not that quick at all. It takes time to focus and see what is really there. Same thing with taking a quick glance at the dashboard to read the speed, rpm etc. IRL the eye's have to focus for a different distance each time you take a look away from the road.

In game, the distance stays the same so your eyes don't have to refocus.

As for the post box comment.. To me GTSPort cockpit view is very similar to what I see IRL. for example, yes IRL you do see the mirrors, but they are completely out of focus until you direct your eyes to them, and then you don't see what's going on on the road ahead. In GTS you have the right thumb stick that does exactly that, it 'moves your eyes' to the side mirrors. The right thumb stick is ok, but it violently snaps back and really breaks the immersion.

I would rather see an option like quick glance to left and right side mirror ( something like the L1 button for the rear.)
 
bokimoto
Cockpit view without VR or 3 screens is crap.
It is not realistic at all, to anyone who has driven a car in real life.
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Can't disagree more that it's crap with a single screen. I made the switch to cockpit with a single 60" screen and never looked back. With the right tools in game you are fully aware of what's going on around you. I'm using triples now and agree it's much better, being able to simply glance left and right and see the car mirror is great, but I had no trouble racing or being fast when I had a single screen and for me the immersion was much higher. Realism is a bit of a red herring for comparison since you're sitting in your living room in a comfy chair and likely with a plastic wheel in front of you.
 
Rinsky
I've come to learn over the years that majority of people don't like a challenge when it comes to online racing. They want the easiest view with the stickiest tires with unrealistic driving assist.
The great thing about lobbies is you can force people to drive without those crutches and make the racing much more challenging.

I fully agree with you that the option for cockpit view only should be added to the lobby features. It's one of the best views to drive from and really makes you become a better driver. Now in GTS they have added the sun glare on the front window and depending on the time of day it can be a real challenge to see out of.
I'm all for it and I would definitely seek out those type of view races only.
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Wanting to be able to see properly out of the car and see what’s around you isn’t taking the easy way out and isn’t avoiding challenges, nor does it make you a worse driver. Driving blind and overly safe because of cockpit view isn’t teaching you anything about racing, it’s just making it more difficult for no reason.
 
JulesDennis
I dont think iRacing members complain about the "cockpit" view (or AC or Pcars for that matter) the same way GTS players do.
Since I could be considered a "purist" (I always use "cockpit") I think that forcing that view in Sport mode is not a good idea for these reasons:
a. Most GTS players are not "hardcore sim" players.They dont like the cockpit view and they will never like it.Either way the majority of GTS players do not use it and would not accept getting forced to use it.
b. They way that view is designed by PD is so poor that even some "hardcore" sim players will option not to use it (yes its that bad).
c. There are various camera views in games for a simple reason: people can use the one they prefer.You cannot give 5 different options but then say "You can only use one of those".If PD wanted to create a more "hardcore" experience,apart from other things,they should have just created only one view.
So even if I personally would be fine with "cockpit" view only,at this point I dont find it a good idea.
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i did like it in project cars, i used it there. especially since the computer displays on the dashboards work and tell you things like tyre pressures and brake temps so you can race easily without the hud on
 
bokimoto
Cockpit view without VR or 3 screens is crap.
It is not realistic at all, to anyone who has driven a car in real life.
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I've driven plenty of cars in real life over the last 30 years, cockpit view with a single screen is a long way from crap or unrealistic, if you get your FOV right.

DesertPenguin
Or the screen needs to be much bigger. I can't really move my TV... lol

Thanks for the info tho
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Perfect excuse for a bigger screen
 

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