Purists racing in cockpit view vs exterior views

[ColinNZ]

I have to laugh aloud every time a cockpit view user calls themselves a 'purist'.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Inigo Montoya

I know, it's inconceivable.

 

[parkman_20]

Not sure I understand why there is such resistance from the casual crowd to the sim crowd.
I totally understand where both are coming from.. I grew up a pad user, loved Gran Turismo for the cars and collecting etc., but now I really enjoy racing, competition, and improving my driving skills and technique.

The casual fans are saying "sport is for everyone", the purpose of it is just to match similar paced drivers with each other. That's only partly true, the goal was also to move away from just a game to "sport". Sport has rules, and regulations. Bumper cam is an advantage, counter steer assist is an advantage, by regulating it to a certain preset like the OP is suggesting, you create equal/balanced competition.

All I would humbly suggest is have places in the game for both! Right now the casual fans are mostly happy it seems, but the purists aren't as much because there isn't a daily race option for them. I would say the FIA should be the place for that, but it's only 3 times a day. Creating a lobby isn't the same, you could flip that argument and say "ALL THE CASUALS SHOULD MAKE THEIR OWN LOBBY, SPORT IS FOR SPORT". The purists need the benefits of matchmaking, ranking and all that too.

But I see a lot of hostility on here and it comes off as defensive. There's really no need to react to the so-called "purists" as if they are elitists, they just have different preferences and their own desires/expectations for the game.

 

[azrilnazli]

sit this close if you want to enjoy cockpit view

 

[ColinNZ]

Not sure I understand why there is such resistance from the casual crowd to the sim crowd.
I totally understand where both are coming from.. I grew up a pad user, loved Gran Turismo for the cars and collecting etc., but now I really enjoy racing, competition, and improving my driving skills and technique.

The casual fans are saying "sport is for everyone", the purpose of it is just to match similar paced drivers with each other. That's only partly true, the goal was also to move away from just a game to "sport". Sport has rules, and regulations. Bumper cam is an advantage, counter steer assist is an advantage, by regulating it to a certain preset like the OP is suggesting, you create equal/balanced competition.

All I would humbly suggest is have places in the game for both! Right now the casual fans are mostly happy it seems, but the purists aren't as much because there isn't a daily race option for them. I would say the FIA should be the place for that, but it's only 3 times a day. Creating a lobby isn't the same, you could flip that argument and say "ALL THE CASUALS SHOULD MAKE THEIR OWN LOBBY, SPORT IS FOR SPORT". The purists need the benefits of matchmaking, ranking and all that too.

But I see a lot of hostility on here and it comes off as defensive. There's really no need to react to the so-called "purists" as if they are elitists, they just have different preferences and their own desires/expectations for the game.

Threads like this come up all the time, and the gist of them is always, "I'd enjoy GT Sport more if I could control how other people play it." I doubt they're meant to come across this way, but that's always how they read.

I don't care what view you're using, I don't care what assists you're using, I don't care whether you're using a DS4 or a wheel, I don't care if I'm the fastest driver in the lobby or the slowest. All I care about is sitting down and playing my favorite game in a view I'm comfortable with.

Simple as that.

 

[Eva]

I always race in cockpit cameras, but that's purely because I love the immersion factor they provide. I've never judged someone for not using the cockpit cameras, and if I'm not racing competitively, it's not my business to care. We enjoy games differently. From a pace perspective, external cameras provide more pace because you can be more accurate with your car placement, but it's never stopped me from being competitive with others around me.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

Do purists also wear race suits and a helmet? Have a technical engineer on the radio and live in a motorbike next to the track.

 

[TwIsTeD_83]

Played Gt1-Gt5 in chase cam.
I bought a wheel and now I race only in cockpit cam.
An option for lobbies would be nice but enforcing it in Sport mode is a bad idea all around.

 

[thefraggle]

This is possibly the one thing that takes the shine off this game for me, because I'm more of a sim racing purist (and I know there are some others on here too), I drive every car from cockpit view. It's authentic, immersive, and this game in particular offers probably the best visually modelled cockpit views. I've been racing cockpit view for many years so it's quite instinctive. I know I sacrifice a small amount of time against others this way but generally I can hold my own easily. When it comes to the faster players out there, it does become a bit uncompetitive though, and most of the opposition do not race in this view because the general online mentality is to gain maximum advantage over any other factor.

People I race with have said they have tried cockpit view but can't get used to it. This is probably because too many alternative views are offered. I know GT Sport isn't exactly a hardcore sim but back in the day when Geoff Crammond released his F1 games, there was ONLY cockpit view, and everyone had to use it. That may be too much to deal with for todays gamers but very least we should have an option to lock the view in a lobby like Project Cars does, and offer bigger rewards to those who use this view, to encourage more people to play the way it should be played.

I know some will say they want to be allowed to use what ever view they want etc etc but frankly it's way too easy with an external view but because most people use that, it eventually forces us all to, if you really want to compete, and that is unfortunate I think because it kind of renders the cockpit view as pointless.

It's just my personal thing at the end of the day because I feel that cockpit view isn't really catered for, for players that want to use it - against other players using it because the masses are all using bumper view or the dial view. How many real life racing drivers sit on the bonnet of their cars or on the roof to drive...of course you would get a better view, but it's bit bogus really, it just feels like an acrcade game to me in those views.

If you could lock it, or there were lobby's just for cockpit view, you would know everyone has the same deal. I know the more sim orientated players will sympathise with me on this.

I was never a cockpit racer and then I got another PSVR. I tried the VR mode and now ONLY play in cockpit view with the VR. I've ended up being a faster and better racer.

 

[Haitauer]

Ive been racing from bumber/hood view for two decades, but for few months now ive been racing from cockpit for immersion. In gtsport the fov is really narrow and for some reason the horizontal camera control (front/back) is very limited. I have noticed its very hard to avoid collisions even if i am one of the more clean drivers trying to leave room in corners when side by side. One just cant always tell if someone is behind or by ones side.

Also gts cockpit view lacks in sense of speed. Wider fov would help this greatly.

 

[Macboyilija]

Threads like this come up all the time, and the gist of them is always, "I'd enjoy GT Sport more if I could control how other people play it." I doubt they're meant to come across this way, but that's always how they read.

I don't care what view you're using, I don't care what assists you're using, I don't care whether you're using a DS4 or a wheel, I don't care if I'm the fastest driver in the lobby or the slowest. All I care about is sitting down and playing my favorite game in a view I'm comfortable with.

Simple as that.

Thats not so simple. As stated, the problem with these kind of threads is not controlling how other people play. It is the fact that some people would enjoy a game more if other people play the same way and style. That you dont care how other people play does not mean that all people think like you.

To me there is only one argument against this wish: it would probably be making the fields way too small.

But to me it matters how others play. And I dont care about the speed or who is faster which most of the times is a counter-reaction. Or go play iRacing. I dont want hardcore simracing but i hate arcade racing games especially when calling themselves a simulator.

It would feel better if people who use aids and play the game as arcade would not feel so attacked and just respect the fact that there are some people who like to play it different and would enjoy it more if they know that everybody plays the same and has the same “difficulties” when playing and mastering the game.

It is not that those people who ask more simracing-style force everybody to do so as well. But the people who do not want this force “us” not to think like this. What is this kind of strange logic ? Unless something is made possible for this group these discussions will come back. They are not even a discussion worth.

We only would like to see some kind of different league and not only in the lobby. GT sport is not about lobbies only but sport mode. I dont see FIA races with controllers driving around in real life.

And of course the end argument would be to say in response that its just a game ....

 

[Paulzx]

They should be able to use whatever view they want.


I find exterior view far harder than cockpit view.



No it doesn't.


Now how realistic GTS's cockpit view is depends totally on how big your monitor is and how far away from it you sit, but given that the default FOV is quite wide then its far from accurate in that regard as well.

What a stupid reply. Nobody finds exterior views harder, the sheer fact you can see more makes it easier and more importantly faster.

 

[Scaff]

We only would like to see some kind of different league and not only in the lobby. GT sport is not about lobbies only but sport mode. I dont see FIA races with controllers driving around in real life.

Yes you do, its called GTS's Sport modes FIA races.

Now if you are refering to FIA approved race series and competitions outside of GTS, then you are almost right, as the FIA is also associated with both the WRC and F1 eSport series (one of which has been around longer than GTS's).

So reduing it down you are refering to FIA series that are not esport, in which case you are right. However you sort of then undo your own logic by saying:

"It would feel better if people who use aids and play the game as arcade would not feel so attacked and just respect the fact that there are some people who like to play it different and would enjoy it more if they know that everybody plays the same and has the same “difficulties” when playing and mastering the game."

Yet many FIA series (that are not esport) allow the use of aids, and even given the option no one switches them off, for a very good reason.

What a stupid reply. Nobody finds exterior views harder, the sheer fact you can see more makes it easier and more importantly faster.

First drop the attitude, you agreed to follow the AUP when you joined, so please do so.

Now as for why I find it harder (and I do like that my subjective view is somehow wrong), car movement is wrong from a driving perspective for me in chase cam, and that doesn't at all gel with wheel input.

What is gained in visibility around the car is more than lost for me in the disconnect between the input and the car movement.

 

[Paulzx]

I know the feeling

To start with I used cockpit view with all aids off. But it’s harder to hit apexes and even harder to drive door-to-door this way because the view is so much more restricted.

Now in sports mode I use bumper cam with countersteer assistance and radar to make sure I’m 100% competitive. I hang my head in shame

Now I just use VR on the Nurburgring whenever I want my realism fix.

It’s not impossible though. The race below was done in cockpit cam with no radar!

Excellent reply Alan. As I read through the various replies I am starting to get a better feel for how we all approach this. Your comment about sport races is particularly telling. In my view, to go back to switching on various driver aids and external views just to be competitive with people who want it easy, is a fail on the part of the game. For those who want to race with higher difficulty, the game rewards should be higher

 

[ColinNZ]

I think people need to be honest with themselves regarding the nature of Gran Turismo. It is the flagship racing game on Playstation. It is designed to sell PS4s and to be played fully on a DS4. It is not an arcade racer; it is not a hardcore sim. But within the game there is the ability to cater for fans of both genres.

Sport mode is designed to be played by everyone. The game itself does not care what pov you are using, MT or AT, controller or wheel etc. It just tries to match you up with people it thinks you will have a close race with. Quite a lot of people seem to be enjoying this.

But lobbies are what make the online part of this game shine. They mean that people are not bound by what Sport has to offer that day. They also allow you to organise whatever race/series you want with a group of like-minded people. Do you want a series of 50 lap races with a certain set of rules ... ORGANISE IT YOURSELF! That's what the online racing and leagues section of this site is for.

Gran Turismo cannot be a hardcore sim, if it was it would never be able to sell enough copies to stay afloat. But it does offer the tools to those who want to use it as one.

 

[Paulzx]

I'm slowly starting to build a list of players who I've run into and all are looking for more challenging lobby races.
We are definitely out there its just a matter of getting everyone online at the same time.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I will post my conclusions to this discussion shortly, but one thing it has done is to highlight who the sim drivers are amongst us which is helpful

 

[Crazy Taylor]

For those who want to race with higher difficulty, the game rewards should be higher

For those I would suggest playing something else. Gran turismo was never and probably never will be, a Hardcore racer

 

[Paulzx]

Another "force people to play it my way" thread.

I think they should add catastrophic damage to the game, so when you wreck, your car is finished! If you hit hard enough, they should replicate recovery time....fine, it can be sped up....but it's still unrealistic that I can crash and still race in the same day, much less the same race. You should have to pay to repair the car and if you total the car, you should have to buy a new one.

Nope..if you can read, what I said was enable us to force cockpit view in our own lobbies that's all. You don't have to join it, you can keep playing with all the easy settings

 

[azrilnazli]

Ive fulfilled the mandatory 8 weeks online racing in iRacing GT3 ( in forced cockpit mode )....now I just want to enjoy casual sport mode racing in GTS in whatever view I want.

GTS always for casual, the 90% of GTS targetted audience is always a casual.

 

[Paulzx]

I enjoy driving in cockpit view. But, from a purist perspective an exterior view predates a cockpit view by years and would probably be considered truer to the genre of racing games.

That has nothing to do with being a purist or sim racing enthusiast. Tech improves all the time to make better sims it doesn't matter what the limitations were previously

As we've already discussed here before, people have their own opinions about what view is best. To suggest that one view has an advantage over another is stupid because it's subjective. Only the user can determine what view is best for them.

Please read my post properly. This is not a subjective discussion about which view is best. My point is that we have no way of making it a level playing field in private lobbies. Bumper cam is faster than cockpit even after you have it down to a fine art. We might be only talking tenths here but when you're racing the fastest guys, it's still an advantage that can only be equalised by using the same view. It's much more satisfying racing equally, viewpoint and driver aids. That is the real test.

Yeah, it’s weird, when I drive my car I don’t see two steering wheels.

Do you drive your real car from bumper cam then?

 

[JulesDennis]

Do purists also wear race suits and a helmet? Have a technical engineer on the radio and live in a motorbike next to the track.

In some ways they do mate.Maybe they dont have helmets or suits but they do wear gloves and racing shoes.Most of them have a ton of apps working with their racing title as their crew/manager (example the well known Crew Chief application).

 

[Paulzx]

Threads like this come up all the time, and the gist of them is always, "I'd enjoy GT Sport more if I could control how other people play it." I doubt they're meant to come across this way, but that's always how they read.

I don't care what view you're using, I don't care what assists you're using, I don't care whether you're using a DS4 or a wheel, I don't care if I'm the fastest driver in the lobby or the slowest. All I care about is sitting down and playing my favorite game in a view I'm comfortable with.

Simple as that.

Yes but you have no relevance in this discussion because this is not about sport mode or making you change which view you use

 

[Joe-dogs]

I think if you're hosting a lobby should decide if you can lock in copit mode. Then, you who like more arcade driving can host their own lobby and have fun. So, we who love sim racing can experience more sim. Then everyone is happy.
Google Translate
is my best frend.

 

[super_gt]

That has nothing to do with being a purist or sim racing enthusiast. Tech improves all the time to make better sims it doesn't matter what the limitations were previously

Please read my post properly. This is not a subjective discussion about which view is best. My point is that we have no way of making it a level playing field in private lobbies. Bumper cam is faster than cockpit even after you have it down to a fine art. We might be only talking tenths here but when you're racing the fastest guys, it's still an advantage that can only be equalised by using the same view. It's much more satisfying racing equally, viewpoint and driver aids. That is the real test.

Do you drive your real car from bumper cam then?

What a nice triple post!
Here's how to not do that.

Bumper cam in GT is not exactly on the bumper,unlike Project CARS 2

 

[JulesDennis]

Bumper cam in GT is not exactly on the bumper,unlike Project CARS 2

Explain please how the "bumper" cam in Pcars 2 is related to this topic.
Anyway I already wrote that most people would not use the "cockip" view -even if it was a perfect built- and thats fine since the game give alternative choices.
The same way some will not use radar while others do,or ABS or TCS.
I personally use only RL aids and cockpit camera.But since PD give players alternatives then its their choice if they want to use a bumper cam,ABS and TC in a '60s car.After all this is Gran Turismo and not iRacing (I mean they dont try to force all RL rules/specs to begin with).
If "hardcore" sim players want a hardcore sim experience then they propably did not make the right choice with GTS to start with.
"This is a game for everyone".

 

[MatskiMonk]

"purists"

LOL

 

[super_gt]

Explain please how the "bumper" cam in Pcars 2 is related to this topic.

I just gave an example for comparison what is real bumper cam.

 

[Rinsky]

This thread wasn't started as a debate between what view is better than the other. @Paulzx main question was who would like to see what driving views you could force upon players in the lobbies. No different than it is for the tires you run or the assist you use now.
Alot of us see cockpit cam as being the hardest of the bunch and would like to see it added as a choice for another level of difficulty in the lobbies.
Sport Mode can stay the arcade style of racing that people seem to like but lobbies can be made more hardcore for those of us looking for more of a challenge.
1. Cockpit view only
2. Sport tires only
3. No assist
4. Full damage on
5. Penalty on Strong
6. Fuel and tire wear on
7. 30 + laps
8. HUD turned off
9. No Tuning
I would also like the option for DS4 users only and one for wheel users only.

So why some may say that GTS is not a Hardcore Race Sim the lobbies do have the choice for a much higher level of difficulty than Sport Mode will probably ever offer.
This thread is bringing out other like-minded people who feel the same and would like to see these options added.

 

[JulesDennis]

This thread wasn't started as a debate between what view is better than the other. @Paulzx main question was who would like to see what driving views you could force upon players in the lobbies. No different than it is for the tires you run or the assist you use now.
Alot of us see cockpit cam as being the hardest of the bunch and would like to see it added as a choice for another level of difficulty in the lobbies.

I agree that more choices is a good thing.With that said:

Sport Mode can stay the arcade style of racing that people seem to like but lobbies can be made more hardcore for those of us looking for more of a challenge..

The game is either more "arcade" or "hardcore" because of other factors and not because of a camera view.I mean iRacing does -example- have the RL aids.For sure you cannot call it "arcade".

1. Cockpit view only

Like I said it could be a good option

2. Sport tires only

So from your point of view "racing tires" used in racing cars is arcade style.I mean the tire model (no matter if they are sport,race or whatever) is so simplistic and basic that whatever tire choice you make,its kinda "arcade" in GTS.

3. No assist

I guess that iRacing GT3 cars are for "casual" and "arcade" sim players following this logic.

4. Full damage on

I agree but its already an option for private lobbies.

5. Penalty on Strong

See above

6. Fuel and tire wear on

See above

7. 30 + laps

See above

8. HUD turned off

Now tell me,if you want to change your fuel map,how is that going to happen without the HUD?

9. No Tuning

You want a more hardcore experience but you dont like tuning?So people cannot adjust their car because the BoP is so good and perfect for hardcore players?
Still its something you can do already.

I would also like the option for DS4 users only and one for wheel users only.

Why?There are super fast/clean DS4 users and super slow/dirty wheel users.But in any case,you really think that to code something like that is easy or possible?

So why some may say that GTS is not a Hardcore Race Sim the lobbies do have the choice for a much higher level of difficulty than Sport Mode will probably ever offer.
This thread is bringing out other like-minded people who feel the same and would like to see these options added.

More "difficulty" does not equal "hardcore sim experience".I mean when the physics model is that basic -just and example- adding factors that make the game more "difficult" -from your point of view- will not make the game "more sim".It will only make it more "difficult".
If you are looking for a bigger challenge I would sugest to bult a good PC and sub into iRacing.Try to get a PRO licence there while racing Nicki Thimm and co in the A licence and the "Scott Speed" type of players of the sim racing community.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

This thread wasn't started as a debate between what view is better than the other. @Paulzx main question was who would like to see what driving views you could force upon players in the lobbies. No different than it is for the tires you run or the assist you use now.
Alot of us see cockpit cam as being the hardest of the bunch and would like to see it added as a choice for another level of difficulty in the lobbies.
Sport Mode can stay the arcade style of racing that people seem to like but lobbies can be made more hardcore for those of us looking for more of a challenge.
1. Cockpit view only
2. Sport tires only
3. No assist
4. Full damage on
5. Penalty on Strong
6. Fuel and tire wear on
7. 30 + laps
8. HUD turned off
9. No Tuning
I would also like the option for DS4 users only and one for wheel users only.

So why some may say that GTS is not a Hardcore Race Sim the lobbies do have the choice for a much higher level of difficulty than Sport Mode will probably ever offer.
This thread is bringing out other like-minded people who feel the same and would like to see these options added.

*

 

[Rinsky]

I agree that more choices is a good thing.With that said:




The game is either more "arcade" or "hardcore" because of other factors and not because of a camera view.I mean iRacing does -example- have the RL aids.For sure you cannot call it "arcade".


Like I said it could be a good option

So from your point of view "racing tires" used in racing cars is arcade style.I mean the tire model (no matter if they are sport,race or whatever) is so simplistic and basic that whatever tire choice you make,its kinda "arcade" in GTS.

I guess that iRacing GT3 cars are for "casual" and "arcade" sim players following this logic.

I agree but its already an option for private lobbies.

See above

See above

See above

Now tell me,if you want to change your fuel map,how is that going to happen without the HUD?

You want a more hardcore experience but you dont like tuning?So people cannot adjust their car because the BoP is so good and perfect for hardcore players?
Still its something you can do already.

Why?There are super fast/clean DS4 users and super slow/dirty wheel users.But in any case,you really think that to code something like that is easy or possible?


More "difficulty" does not equal "hardcore sim experience".I mean when the physics model is that basic -just and example- adding factors that make the game more "difficult" -from your point of view- will not make the game "more sim".It will only make it more "difficult".
If you are looking for a bigger challenge I would sugest to bult a good PC and sub into iRacing.Try to get a PRO licence there while racing Nicki Thimm and co in the A licence and the "Scott Speed" type of players of the sim racing community.

First off this is not IRacing and was never mentioned in any of my post so why you feel the need to compare the two is beyond me.

I also never said anything about race cars. Believe it or not some of us prefer street cars over race cars. Yes running race tires on street cars is definitely more of an arcade experience.

I also never said Sport Mode was arcade just because of the view choice.
Sport Mode is more arcade because of all its rules that caterers to people of all ages. That's fine and a lot of people seem to like that simplicity. At the same time there are those of us who are looking for a stricter set of rules to play by.

No Tuning is another level of difficulty and does not allow people to modify their cars to handle better. No HUD means no fuel map and is another level of difficulty. You want to save fuel then learn to do it with throttle management and not with the in game fuel map.

GT can be customized in private lobbies to be very challenging and difficult but has room for improvement. It amazes me the amount of people who just don't understand why some of us like or want more of a challenge in the lobby section.

Some of the best racing I've ever experienced has been in private lobbies with difficult settings.

And Hitler wanted everyone to have blonde hair blue eyes. That went well

So now you want to be racist?