Racing Education

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Segnit

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Complex is the word when real driving physics come to mind. GT 4 will no doubt have complex physics. The purpose of this thread is to have general racing guidelines for all beginners to follow… a set of rules if you like. This is a place for hardcore drivers to use their knowledge to make the racing scene more competitive. From what i have noticed, it seems like there are a lot of real professional racers on this forum. We appreciate you and your knowledge 👍


Everyone is welcomed to ask questions. However people shouldn’t answer if:
1) They don’t fully know the answer.
2) They cannot back their claims up with well written supportive/complementary text.


I will ask the first question:
What do you do when approaching a 90° corner at high speed when taking into consideration that the corner following is a short distance away? Do you brake into the 90°? Should you press the accelerator before the apex or past it? Any additional information is well appreciated.


Remember everyone give a lot of information in a single post so that we don’t get stuck on a single question. And everyone has their level so no question is stupid. Asking anything and don’t be shy :) Thanks everyone.
 
In what direction is the corner after the first one? Since its a short distance between them two corners...
 
BAZZ
In what direction is the corner after the first one? Since its a short distance between them two corners...
Click to expand...

Does the direction really matter?
OK let's assume that you turn left for the 90 degree turn and then right for the next turn.
 
Segnit
Does the direction really matter?
OK let's assume that you turn left for the 90 degree turn and then right for the next turn.
Click to expand...

Yes it does.
Is the breaking area bumpy or smooth, are corners uphill or downhill, is corners tight slow or fast open.

Watch some car racing on TV to get an idea of how to take drifferent corners.
Different drivers will find different lines that best suit the car / driver at each track.
It is hard to give a accurate answer to your original question.

The original GT hand book gave good information for beginners to learn how to take corners.
 
Well trust me this is already helping a lot. If the question can't be answered at least you are pointing out the flaws in it. In that case let me ask this.. is there any general rule that apply's to the apex? Like is it common to press the gas before touching the apex?

Edit: Let me give you what my idea is... you brake late so as to keep your speed as long as possible (since you are coming from a long straight and the next turn immidiatiatly follows the 90 degree turn) ... you touch the apex past the 45degree angle (meaning that you will turn into a corner late thus allowing for more straight line braking). Also touching the apex late will help you be positioned well for the upcoming right hander. I also would assume that breaking into a corner would help aerodynamic downforce thus increasing the effectivness of the breaks (Although based on the GT2 manual, braking power is reduced when the car is turning). Based on all of the above, i would have to press the throttle quiet a bit past the apex which is unlike most turns i imagine.

Any comments? Any errors?
 
Generally all your braking should be done before the apex and start easing on the gas just before you reach the apex.

The F1 Telecasts generally show a flying lap with the brake / gas application being shown on the TV. Gives a good idea on how the pro's do it.
 
Well, what i meant segnit, was that the line would differ quite alot on a right/right cornering and a right/left. :D
But, as Uncle Harry said, "Generally all your braking should be done before the apex and start easing on the gas just before you reach the apex.". Couldnt have said it better myself, but think its will be more fun in testing out different lines in turns with different cars when we actually get GT4.

[OT]: Oh and code_kev you might not be the only one thinking that this is a "REALLY REALLY boring topic" but im sure as heck not the only who thinks that your post was REALLY REALLY useless. Ofcourse not everyone is gonna think that this thread is good, but why the heck would i go complaining in threads that i dont see any interest in?[/OT]
 
You want to make the 90 degree corner as short as possible, so you have as much room left as possible to clear the second corner at higher speed, because you want to take that corner out-in-out. You'll make speed at the next section to make up for the rather slow 90 degree. If you took the 90 degree wide and you didn't have the optimal racing line for the second corner, you would have the speed in the 90 degree, but you'll lose more time over the next section. Hope that makes sense.

If both were lefthanders or righthanders, then you should make the 90 degree corner longer, so you have more room. This generally means you'll enter the 90 degree at higher speed.
 
Thanks BUZZ and Uncle Harry for pointing me to the right direction. I have a few questions still.

Is it important to ease onto the gas? Wouldn't it be better if you brake all the way until you can abrubtly press fullthrotle for maximum acceleration? Oh and what did you think this:

The following example assumes that there is a long straight followed buy 90 degree left hander followed by an imidiate very tight right hander. What i am concerned about is the long straight all the way up to the end of the 90 degree turn (which includes setting up the car for the very tight right hander).

Let me give you what my idea is... you brake late so as to keep your speed as long as possible (since you are coming from a long straight and the next turn immidiatiatly following the 90 degree turn is very close by) ... you touch the apex past the 45degree angle (meaning that you will turn into a corner late allowing for more straight line braking). Also touching the apex late will help you be positioned well for the upcoming right hander. I also would assume that breaking into a corner would help aerodynamic downforce which would increasing the effectivness of the breaks (Although based on the GT2 manual, braking power is reduced when the car is turning). Based on all of the above, i would have to press the throttle quiet a bit past the apex which is unlike most turns i imagine.

Is my way of thinking wrong? I know it's hypothetical a case but i think that you should be able to tell the flaws in my way of negotiating that corner? What's on your mind?
 
Well you have different types of cars. It all depends on which wheels are driven and the weight/roll of the car. If you have a front wheel driven car, and you keep mashing the gas, you'll get understeer, which means you'll run too wide into the corner.
If you have a 4 wheel drive car, it tends to understeer unless it is cured with some good steering work.
With a rear wheel drive car, you want to ease on the gas. If you feed it to much, it'll oversteer, and the possibility to spin is there. Easing the gas is better than not giving any at all, because of the laws of physics. Easing the gas means the tyres will keep the grip better.
Now you also have the issue of weight/roll. If a car weighs a lot, there is more force going "the wrong way", so the speed at which you take a corner should be lower, unless you want to hit the outside of the corner, or end up spinning.
And taking the Apex late will not position you well for the next corner. You want to keep the out-in-out racing line for every corner, which is the line that'll allow you the highest speed to take the corner.
 
If the following turn is the opposite direction of the 90 degree turn you would want to stay close to the inside, braking more than you would need to so you can setup for the apex of the next turn.
 
I've made a quick diagram of the ideal racing line in the two situations you described. Red signifies braking, and a dotted line means easing the gas to a minimum
90degreetorightapex.jpg

90degreetoleftapex.jpg
 
Generally slow in equates to fast out and more speed at the end of the next straight, but you have to brake earlier to get the slow in.
What you describe isa classic late braking move used to try to pass the car in front. Fast in slow out and less speed at the end of the next straight. If you can get in front of the passed car it generally works but if you only get alongside you are at a disadvantage at the next corner.
Quickest lap times are usually set by using slow in fast out method and using the classic racing lines.
It is best to watch some track races on telly. Ovals not included.
The fastest corner speed is gained by turning at the largest radius possible to make the turn which for a left hand turn means coming from the right side of the track at the entry, clipping the inside of the turn on the left side of the track (apex) and then exiting to the far right.
 
So, Dev_Zero, what you're saying is that easing onto the gas is preferable to abrubtly pressing the throttle. Hmm.. interesting.. i honestly had never thought about that. Your explenation was clear enough so your point really got through to me. So basically:

- The more weight we carry the slower we need to turn. (Can anyone elaborate on weight shifting and it's importance please?)
- Easing onto the gas is preferable.
- Out-in-out cornering is, generally speaking, the best way around a corner. (Though icemanshooter23 and Dev_Zero seem to think that for this particular corner, slow in fast out approach is better).
 
Well when you brake, you are trying to stop the wheels from turning. The wheels will try to turn slower, but the weight of the car still wants to go at the same speed. So you have the weight of the car transferring to the front. So the front brakes get the most pressure.
When the force of the weight is larger than the force the wheels can handle, you'll get loss of grip. Due to the weight shifting, the car gets pulled to one side. When turning, you want to go somewhere, but the force of the weight still wants to go the same direction. Straight forward that is, when compared to the turn. So you want to go one way, and the weight wants to go the other. The other side basicly means the outside of the corner, so unless you have enough grip, the car will start sliding towards the outside.
Braking earlier will make sure the force of the weight is less when entering the turn. So you have more grip. Which means you'll get the car to go where you want it to go.
When mashing the gas, exactly the opposite is happening. The weight actually slows you down, and is transferred to the back. Experienced racers can play with the weight shifting and make for an ideal situation. Drifters make for a non-ideal situation so they get the car to slide, then they try to control the slide.
 
Now for the easing onto the gas:
This can be derived from the weight shifting part. Basicly, if you don't do anything, you only have the force of the weight and your basic grip. If you try to ease the gas, the wheels will start turning, and try to force the car where you want it to go. It's an addition to your standard grip. Now when you floor it, the force might become too big, which means the wheels will spin. Spinning means loss of grip, which means the force of the weight gets free play, and you'll fly to the outside or spin around.

EDIT: Excuse me for the double post btw
 
Signit a good idea when presenting these scenario's is to find a track that's in the GT series that has the same corner combo that you are seeking to find the answers of...

That way people know exactly what you are referring to...

Like Div_Zero says, just how you take a corner may depend on what comes after the corner, there's a difference between taking a corner quickly and establishing quick 'sectors'...

If you were to take a corner at the quickest possible speed, it may mean that the next section of the track you may have to sacrifice speed and/or you are unable to position the car on the optimum racing line. The result is that you may lose more time in that section than you gained in taking that corner at max speed.

The speed you take a corner combined with the line taken for it, without sacrificing your speed/line into the next sector/corner/s is the way to quicker times...
 
code_kev
Am I the only one who thinks that this is a REALLY REALLY boring topic?
Click to expand...
I don't think it's boring I think its usless. There are plenty of how to drive topics related to the other gts, and since not many pepole have played Gt4 the other topics will proably help more than speculation on how to drive better on the new one.
 
Hello, Segnit. Welcome to GTPlanet. I am John of Houston, TX, USA. Nice meeting you.

Now, I'm no racing instructor but since we're dealing with the "Real Driving Simulator," I'd say that if you ever have any concerns on how to race, just maybe look up some resources on how to race effectively. If you can adjust your racing style in real life to how you race in GT4, you'll be the king/queen of the track. I know I'm talking to you Segnit, but I was referring to any GT gamer, male or female. So why not look around, Segnit?

Two things:

1.) I'm going to download that Skip Barber thing on the first page. Who knows? I may be a better GT gamer than in all my 4 or 5 years playing GT.

2.) A thread is really boring when no one really cares about what's being mentioned. If you're going to say this about all threads, then you're proving that you're one of the most selfish people to ever grace GTPlanet. If you have a shred of decency and respect, you should know better than to blast threads like this like you did.

Other than that, have a good day, Segnit!
 
Everyone thanks for the feedback. I have already adjusted quiet a few racing approaches in my mind.

Dev_Zero both of your diagrams are welcomed and extremely appreciated. And i actually have a question about that... earlier i said that touching the apex late would help me position the car better for the upcoming right hander and people disagreed. Your diagram seems to show exactly what i was saying... that touching the apex late will position you well for the upcoming right hander.

Also thanks for your weight shifting contribution. I am sure it will pop up later on as it's a major part of advanced racing techniques.

Zero thanks for the link. I am sure it helped a lot of people (including me). Though I have played GT 3 excessively, I have only done so while borrowing my friends PS 2. He has two children and they must have been real fond of ripping the GT 3 instruction booklet to smithereens.

JohnBM01 thanks for your participation though your post wasn’t really clear. Were you talking to me on your second point? Well if you were, then I am sorry if I posted a redundant thread. Before I started the thread I searched for “Educational” threads on the search engine and nothing similar to this thread came up. I apologize if I was being redundant to this flourishing forum. I don’t want do lower the grade of the forum. Some clarification would really be ace.


Now back on topic, I do some Go Karting over here where I live… the laps are robotically timed (i.e. accurately timed) and the track is amazing. Now I want to better my time but I can’t for two reasons.
1) There is no speedometer.
2) The Karts are amateur and hard to predict.

Recently I went with my two cousins for time trial runs at the circuit… and I beat both my cousins. It’s important to note that we used the same Go Kart with the same fuel load.
--------Driver---------Lap time---------Weight of driver
1st --- My time –----- 48:94 secs------------ 76 Kilos
2nd -- Gregory –----- 48:97 secs------------ 61 Kilos
3rd --- Garo --------- 52:16 secs------------ 98 Kilos

Now before we went, we were anticipating Gregory to win because he was a full 15 Kilos lighter than me. Like wise he is very energetic, very consistent and an aggressive driver. His dad plans to buy a Ferrari and his whole family is into automotive racing. In other words he is good and I can vouch for that. Now I really don’t get how I beat him. Did my extra weight add to the Go karts' mechanical grip when it came to lower speed corners? I mean any theories? Does more weight mean more grip on these ultra light go karts? I mean there is even an uphill U turn that with a person like me would kill the tiny torque of Kart. Am I wrong?

Oh and hellnback, i understand about your point of giving specific corners from GT. Since it would make explaining easier. I will do that from now on. Thanks
 
Segnit
Like wise he is very energetic, very consistent and an aggressive driver.

Oh and hellnback, i understand about your point of giving specific corners from GT. Since it would make explaining easier. I will do that from now on. Thanks
Click to expand...


Segnit, I have just been Karting in the same Karts at the same track as I did last year, and I set a best time of 27.550 compared to last years 28.325. In fact my average lap time over 59 laps was 28.225. Now I am a full stone (approx 6.4kg) heavier than I was last year, and I was expecting to be slower than last year, especially as the track has a bridge just after a hairpin which I expected my weight to take it's toll on. The reason I was quicker I feel is that I was more focussed on what I was doing. I think a lot of racing comes down to concentration and mental ability, to visualise the corners ahead and not just dealing with the corner when you are there. You saying that this gregory bloke is agressive probably sums up in one word why you were quicker... the key to quick times is smoothness and control. Being aggressive probably results in a slide and this is a sure fire way of wasting time.

Paul.
 
Guys you hafta remeber only one thing when racing. The advice my little sister gave me and my brothers once when we were playing GT3. She told us "Go fast on the straitaways and not to fast on the turns." Believe me it works!
 
Segnit
I will ask the first question:
What do you do when approaching a 90° corner at high speed when taking into consideration that the corner following is a short distance away? Do you brake into the 90°? Should you press the accelerator before the apex or past it? Any additional information is well appreciated.
Click to expand...

If it was a left 90, followed by a right 90, I would brake relatively early, and take a later apex than normal. Using all the track on entry, but only half the track on exit. I would thus take a wide entry into the 2nd 90.

If it was a left 90, followed by another left bend, I would brake later, turn in earlier, and use up all the track on the exit, and take a wide line into the 2nd bend.
 
Segnit
From what i have noticed, it seems like there are a lot of real professional racers on this forum.
Click to expand...

Priceless comment! :lol: you'll probably find a surprising number of astronauts, secret agents and millionaires if you look hard enough ;)
 
for people who never bought gt2, i've scanned the pages of the driving strategy guide you get with it. it covers most of the stuff people are talking about here, with some useful points and diagrams etc.

http://www.essell.org/gt

hope this helps :)
 
I have a specific type of corner that I still don't handle well and that is one which is just a bit sharper than a right-angle. Both of the ones in Rome Circuit and Laguna Seca give me trouble. I am getting better at both of these, but chances are it will take me a while more to do it right. I think the main thing is to slow down a bit more, but... there has to be more to it.

If anyone has suggestions on how to handle this kind of corner, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,

MasterGT
 

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