Radical does it again

  • Thread starter Thread starter dancardesigner
  • 101 comments
  • 8,565 views
Because no other number makes any sense. It's just an arbitrary figure plucked out of the air for no good logical reason.

Pick any number and I'll tell you a production car that number excludes. Though I'll grant you that some will be quite specialised and probably demonically fast.
 
Famine
Because no other number makes any sense. It's just an arbitrary figure plucked out of the air for no good logical reason.

Pick any number and I'll tell you a production car that number excludes. Though I'll grant you that some will be quite specialised and probably demonically fast.
Click to expand...

Although this won't be the real definition, i think the term production car should mean any car that can be purchased by anyone providing they have enough money of course, and is able to be produced in volume, not just a one off.
 
Famine
There's a set number to qualify as a production car. One.
Click to expand...

Technically yes, you're right. But it's not as valid as that high cost (was it GT1? I'm not sure) race series which requires 25 road going versions to be in production before they were able to qualify. Hence there only being 25 Porsche 996 GT1 Strassesversions.

Wouldn't 25 make more sence? Or am I not talking sence (probably the latter).
 
Famine
There's a set number to qualify as a production car. One.
Click to expand...
Technically yes, but to qualify for records, no. If a company makes one car to break one record then I don't think they qualify for a production car record, I'm sure the car is classed as a one off. There is a number a car has to hit in order to qualify for the production car records, I thought it was 25 per year of production but I may be wrong.
 
25 wouldn't make any sense. Why is a car with 25 examples a production car, but one with 24 not?

It might make sense insofar as a race series is concerned - you don't want some manufacturer with far too much money purpose building a one-off lunatic mobile to destroy your series (though even "25" won't put off too many manufacturers - Ford purpose-built the RS200 to take Group B and even included the homologation requirement in its name). But no number other than 1 makes sense when you're talking about a car being production or not.


Take the Schuppan 962. I don't think anyone would reasonably argue that the Porsche 962 is a production car - it's a purpose-built GT Prototype which, though run by privateer teams (so "bought" from Porsche), never had any customers turning up at a Porsche dealership to buy one. The Schuppan - along with its more famous cousin the Dauer Le Mans - was a Porsche 962 converted for road use and sold to customers who wanted to buy one. The Schuppan is a production car - and they made three (maybe four).

Dave A
Technically yes, but to qualify for records, no. If a company makes one car to break one record then they don't qualify for a production car record, it's classed as a one off. There is a number a car has to hit in order to qualify for the production car records, I thought it was 25 per year of production but I may be wrong.
Click to expand...

Well, if there is then you are - in the three-and-a-half years the Apollo has been built up to December 2008 they'd made forty of them. So if they're claiming a production record and there's a set number needed it can't be any more than one a month...
 
Why would a second example make it a production car? Was the first one not a production car? If not, what makes the second one a production car and the first one not?

Stotty
Says who?
Click to expand...

Rationality.
 
Because it proves that the car design itself is not merely a one-off? In essence, the first one isn't a production car until they make a second one, then they both are.
For example, is this a production car?

They made one of them and I'm fairly certain it was street legal for the purposes of testing it.
And what about all those silly Rinspeed things?
 
Toronado
Because it proves that the car design itself is not merely a one-off?
Click to expand...

Who cares if it is or not? All it needs to be is built and sold.

Toronado
In essence, the first one isn't a production car until they make a second one, then they both are.
Click to expand...

I can think of several examples of multiply-produced non-production cars. The Brabus Smart Roadster is a good start point.

Toronado
For example, is this a production car?
Click to expand...

Did anyone buy it?

Toronado
And what about all those silly Rinspeed things?
Click to expand...

Again, any customers?
 
I'll avoid getting in to a pedantic discussion about the technical meaning of the word 'production'.

For me, the discussion here is if the lap times of the Radical and the Grumpet (not in isolation - I'm sure there are others), and cars that are run by the manufacturers without independant scrutiny (meaning boost can be 'massaged' and 'special' tyres fitted) is within the spirt of 'fastest production car lap of the 'Ring... IMO, they are not.
 
The Radical was driven to, round and from the track on the same set of factory, UK road-legal tyres. It's a non-turbo 2.8 litre V8 so has no "boost" to be massaged. The previous record by the Radical was observed and timed by sportAuto magazine, as was the Gumpert.

The others, in order of fastest time:

Viper ACR - Using factory "hardcore" suspension and aero package. Test conducted by Chrysler (not independent).
Maserati MC12 - 50 cars only, timed by Evo
Zonda F Clubsport - 25 cars only, timed by Evo
Ferrari Enzo Ferrari - 400 cars only, timed by Evo
Corvette C6 Z06 - Test conducted by GM (not independent) using non-stock safety equipment
Nissan GT-R - Test conducted by Nissan (not independent)
Porsche Carrera GT - 1,270 cars, timed by AutoBild


Where do you draw the line?
 
Last edited:
I didn't say that the Radical (or the Grumpert) was massaged for the lap... I said, IMO, it's time is not within the spirt of 'the fastest production car' idea.

As a seperate point I did insinuate that major manufacturers might not be 100% honest in how they set their cars up for their 'Ring times.

Famine
The others, in order of fastest time:

Viper ACR - Using factory "hardcore" suspension and aero package. Test conducted by Chrysler (not independent).
Maserati MC12 - 50 cars only, timed by Evo
Zonda F Clubsport - 25 cars only, timed by Evo
Ferrari Enzo Ferrari - 400 cars only, timed by Evo
Corvette C6 Z06 - Test conducted by GM (not independent) using non-stock safety equipment
Nissan GT-R - Test conducted by Nissan (not independent)
Porsche Carrera GT - 1,270 cars, timed by AutoBild


Where do you draw the line?
Click to expand...

Off that list, the Zonda, Enzo and Carerra GT are fine... they were all designed as road cars and all models produced were road registered. Not usre about how many MC12's were built as road cars and how many as GT cars... if all 50 were road registered then personally, I'd allow it.

The Viper, Vette and GTR times are meaningless as there's no independant verification of the car's being exactly the same as the one that comes off the production line.
 
Last edited:
Stotty
I didn't say that the Radical (or the Grumpert) was massaged for the lap... I said, IMO, it's time is not within the spirt of 'the fastest production car' idea.
Click to expand...

Why not? Both are production cars. Both are road legal. You can go and pony up the cash and they'll each sell you one (one considerably more than the other). One was even driven from the factory it was built in to and from the track through several countries on a single set of tyres.

So... what's the issue?
 
The Z06 got a faster time than the GTR? Or do you mean the ZR1?
 
Jay
The Z06 got a faster time than the GTR? Or do you mean the ZR1?
Click to expand...

Could be either. I don't care for any car listed enough to be that bothered. A stock C6 on the other hand... yes please.
 
Based on your responses to my questions, you seem to be taking this discussion personally or something, so I don't particularly care to continue this after this post. It was already explained pretty nicely by berguak why I feel at least two need to be built for a car to be production applicable, and I will add that I've never even heard of making the requirements as low as a single car.

Famine
So... what's the issue?
Click to expand...
I think it would be obvious just looking at the Radical why Stotty thinks the car is not within the spirt of 'the fastest production car' idea. If I cared more about 'Ring lap times, I would probably agree with him.
 
The issue is that the Radical is a race car, not a road car.

The fact that it's possible to make it road legal and that someone was masochistic enough to drive it several hundred miles to and from the venue does not make it a 'production road car'.

All my opinion of course :)
 
Toronado
Based on your responses to my questions, you seem to be taking this discussion personally or something, so I don't particularly care to continue this after this post.
Click to expand...

Well, I've already stated I can't abide either the Radical or the Gumpert. If you want to keep reading things into my statements, that's your call.

Toronado
It was already explained pretty nicely by berguak why I feel at least two need to be built for a car to be production applicable, and I will add that I've never even heard of making the requirements as low as a single car.
Click to expand...

It's the only number that makes sense.

Toronado
I think it would be obvious just looking at the Radical why Stotty thinks the car is not within the spirt of 'the fastest production car' idea. If I cared more about 'Ring lap times, I would probably agree with him.
Click to expand...

Luckily "production" isn't about looks, or anything that didn't look like a car from the 1930s wouldn't count.

Stotty
The issue is that the Radical is a race car, not a road car.
Click to expand...

Except that it's a road car, not a race car. Check the registration plate.

Stotty
The fact that it's possible to make it road legal and that someone was masochistic enough to drive it several hundred miles to and from the venue does not make it a 'production road car'.
Click to expand...

It's not made road legal. That's how it left the factory - and that's how it is bought by customers. A road legal production car.
 
By definition, the Radical is a production road car. Whether or not its time is impressive or is a fair comparison time for other cars is your opinion but the fact is its a production road car.
Nothing to stop people making a new set of records according to their own specific definition of road car if they so want to see their favourite car at the top.
 
Bit of digging...

Radical have zero registrations for the whole of 2008 and zero for 2009 to the end of July according to the SMT... didn't bother going back any further.

On the Radical web site, out of the 5 car range listed, only the SR3 RS is quoted as being available from the factory with an SVA kit (necessary to make the car road legal in the UK)... none of the other models quote an SVA kit on the very long list of options for your build.

None of the approved used Radicals on their site are road registered.

All the vocabulary on the site (for each model) talks exclusively about the car's performance as a race car or as a track day car... no mention at all of suitablity for road use.

The Radical SR8 LM is not a series production road car... one was built and subsequently modified by the factory to be 'road legal' specifically to set this record.

Of course arguing the toss on t'internet is always fun ;)
 
Stotty
Bit of digging...

Radical have zero registrations for the whole of 2008 and zero for 2009 to the end of July according to the SMT... didn't bother going back any further.
Click to expand...

Which is patent nonsense. And I can prove it:

70185351.jpg

2009 car wearing a 2009 registration plate.

Edit: Currently taxed until February 2010, and listed as a white Radical manufactured in 2009.

Double Edit: AE08EWK, an April 2008 registered grey Radical SR8, taxed to October 2009

Stotty
On the Radical web site, out of the 5 car range listed, only the SR3 RS is quoted as being available from the factory with an SVA kit (necessary to make the car road legal in the UK)... none of the other models quote an SVA kit on the very long list of options for your build.

None of the approved used Radicals on their site are road registered.

All the vocabulary on the site (for each model) talks exclusively about the car's performance as a race car or as a track day car... no mention at all of suitablity for road use.
Click to expand...

Radical's strengths - like Ariel's and Caterham's - is a road legal track weapon. Much of Ariel's literature concentrates on performance - and after all, how relevant is 0-100mph to road driving in the UK?

It's not particularly relevant to the fact that the customer cars are road legal production models - though like the Ariel you can specify the car without a road package.

The S8 doesn't require an SVA package because it's not classified as a low volume kit car. The vehicle range is classed as roadworthy, rather than individual models requiring individual testing.

Stotty
The Radical SR8 LM is not a series production road car... one was built and subsequently modified by the factory to be 'road legal' specifically to set this record.
Click to expand...

It is both a non-road legal track car and a road legal production car. Depends on the customer's specification.
 
Last edited:
Likely registered in August... SMT don't quote registrations for August yet

And Radical is nothing like Ariel or Caterham. Ariel and and Caterham produce road cars suitable for track use. Radical makes race cars and trackday cars that can be made road legal.
 
Stotty
Likely registered in August... SMT don't quote registrations for August yet
Click to expand...

And the edit edit car, registered April 2008?

Stotty
And Radical is nothing like Ariel or Caterham. Ariel and and Caterham produce road cars suitable for track use. Radical makes race cars and trackday cars that can be made road legal.
Click to expand...

Actually, with the Ariel you have to specify the road pack so by your argument Ariel and Radical are close analogues.

Caterham sell road or race cars depending on the customer's specification. Prebuild road cars are already road certified, self-build road cars must pass an SVA test.

In either case, the Radical SR8 can be ordered as a road car or as a race car. The example taken to the 'Ring was production road car specification and was road certified, not requiring of an SVA test.
 
I believe it's a 2.6 litre V8 composed from two Suzuki 1.3 bike engines on a common crankshaft, made by Radical themselves. There's a bored 2.8 litre version as well.
 
Famine
I believe it's a 2.6 litre V8 composed from two Suzuki 1.3 bike engines on a common crankshaft, made by Radical themselves. There's a bored 2.8 litre version as well.
Click to expand...

Really.... Thought it was a BMW powered car... Anyway, that's already powerful enough to be honest :)

Thanks for the info mate 👍
 
KidrauhlM5
Really.... Thought it was a BMW powered car... Anyway, that's already powerful enough to be honest :)

Thanks for the info mate 👍
Click to expand...

You may be getting mixed up with Norma. They quite often use BMW engines and their cars are pretty similar to Radicals.
 
If that Radical wasn't sold then it seems like the only criteria for production car is that it's road legal so why don't Dauer with their exotic 962 get a decent driver and smash the record?

dauer.jpg
 

Latest Posts

Back