Rally physics feel really terrible.

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by OrbitingCow, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Lain

    Lain Premium

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    I don't play a lot of rally games, nor do I have any real world experience driving fast on loose surfaces, so I admittedly don't have any point of comparison... but rally in GT has never felt like it was just tarmac physics with low grip to me. (Haven't tried GTS specifically yet though... not gonna download a massive demo just to get a taste of the game when it's almost out and I've already gotten a taste with the beta, still trying to download FM7 over here for crying out loud!)

    Yet I see a lot of people saying that it just drives like tarmac with reduced grip and doesn't accurately model loose surface driving, so I'm genuinely curious... does anybody have any specific examples of behaviors typical of driving on loose surfaces that aren't being modeled by GTS's dirt physics, or behaviors of GTS's dirt physics that wouldn't be expected on loose surfaces?
     
  2. PozzaP87

    PozzaP87

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    The last decent rally mode - if you could even call it rally mode :p - was GT3 and Tahiti and Smokey Mountain tracks. Had hours of fun on those tracks in the Escort rally car.

    Sadly the rallying in GTS in just... well ... rubbish. Really poor physics and like others have said like driving on ice and bouncing off invisible walls. Doubt I will be putting many miles on those tracks.
     
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  3. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Wide stages and more grip (or equal grip) off course hardly ruin the experience... how the car feels to drive is the most important thing as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly it was a good few years (>2 decades) ago, but I've driven FWD (Astra GSi), RWD (Opel Manta with a Rover V8 and 400 kit) and 4WD (Impreza) on gravel, which I expect is more experience than 99% of the people on here criticising GTS physics ;)

    When I see people criticising the game as the cars have no grip or like driving on ice or you can't slide the cars... I'm more inclined to think operator error than game issue. I have none of those issues.
     
  4. TRGTspecialist

    TRGTspecialist

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    Whilst it's no patch on DiRT, SLRE, PCARS2 and WRC7, to me this is the best that loose surface driving has felt in the series - although perhaps that just says more about previous GT games than this one. But unless my memory is fuzzy, I'm fairly sure it feels less skittish than the previous games. For me, it just about crosses the "fun" threshold.

    Also my judgement is possibly clouded because PD's controller settings for rally driving are very responsive - much closer to the controller settings I'd like from the game than the settings they have for circuit driving (as is being discussed in this thread).
     
  5. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I've driven on loose surfaces in a wide range of vehicles from rally prepared cars (fwd,rwd and 4wd) to a lot of off roading in Land Rovers (mainly series ones, Defenders and V8 Rangies).

    The key issue I have with GTS is that the tyres simply don't bite into the surface as they should under braking. Switch off ABS and you should be able to brake with a small degree of traction loss at first, followed by a gain in traction as the tyres bite through the gravel, at which point you should be able to rotate the car around the front end.

    GTS provides a lot of understeer under braking, until you drop to a low enough speed that it then allows you to rotate the car, and the rotation feels like it's from the centre of the car, not the front.
     
  6. Imari

    Imari

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    Certainly, it's easy to dismiss the more outlandish claims. "No grip" is obviously a straw man. And not being able to slide the cars is not what I've seen people saying, both you and others have said the opposite, that large angles are required. Which is often how real life rally cars are driven, but in modern times it has become less so, and it shouldn't be required.

    Would you care to comment in a more detailed manner what aspects of the dirt driving you find to be particularly realistic?

    I mean, I thought it was accepted in general that Gran Turismo as a series was a good but not great simulation by design. It behaves in a largely realistic manner, but certain behaviours are reduced or omitted (or just missing) in order to give that Gran Turismo "feel" that we all enjoy. Historically, Gran Turismo rallying has been probably the weakest part of the simulation. The wide courses were a necessity, because it often would have been horrendously difficult to thread a single lane road with the lack of lateral grip available.

    I thought that this had kind of been accepted as a given. Gran Turismo in the past was a mediocre dirt simulation, but it was a few extra courses on the top of some already pretty sizable games, so there was no sense that there was much missed out on because of it. That's not true in GTS, the game is small and every part of it really needs to earn it's place.

    If the dirt physics really have taken a step forward, then I'm interested to hear about it. So far the consensus from people whose opinions I'd trust is that it's in the same vein as past entries. Videos seem to show the same, an entirely uniform track surface that the cars sort of glide over. No patches of gravel, no digging the tyres into the surface to find grip, no getting out of shape after a jump, just a smooth surface that happens to have a different grip coefficient and visual texture to tarmac. Pick your gear and angle for the corner and just ride it through smoothly. Feels pretty slick, but it's not really that similar to real driving on dirt.

    Perhaps that surface is remarkably similar to driving on dirt, but if that's all it is then it seems like it's missing a lot of what making driving (or racing!) on dirt unique and exciting. Rally is more than just a slippery surface, there's all the inconsistency and risk that comes from driving on an uneven and difficult to predict surface with really quite large jumps which can have significant effects on the car. Like I said, Gran Turismo reduces or omits certain behaviours in order to simplify it's simulation, and it so happens that the ones that they omit on dirt are quite key to making the experience similar to real life.
     
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  7. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    I’d never go anywhere near calling GT a sim when it comes to rallying.

    I would agree with your ‘It behaves in a largely realistic manner, but certain behaviours are reduced or omitted (or just missing) in order to give that Gran Turismo "feel" that we all enjoy.’ comment.

    How do you drive a car on the loose? The techniques for going fast remain true for modern rally cars on loose surfaces, though the angles are much smaller than in older generations.

    In simple terms… heavy brake, shift weight forward, turn wheel (large input), wait for the front of the car to get to a level of grip where it starts to turn or the unloaded rear starts to swing, pointing the car in to the corner, get straight on the gas, wind lock off.

    In more complex terms… using the major controls to adjust the direction of the car from corner to corner… exiting a left hand corner, car sliding to the right (in oversteer), right hand corner approaching, apply big input of right lock, big input of brakes (left foot), feel the weight shift forwards unloading the rear, allow rear to swing back to the left pointing the car in to the turn, apply throttle once you get the desired angle, which shifts weight to the rear and allows you to carry power through the corner.

    Repeat as necessary… executed correctly, the car should almost never be pointing in a straight line, you’re always working to keep the rear of the car mobile to enable you to help rotate it in to a corner.

    Get any of the different phases wrong, and the car will most likely slip in to understeer/slide sideways… so if you get the car pointed in to the corner, and don’t get on the gas, it will just slide wide… you need to get on the gas to drag the car forwards, out of the slide.

    My experience (based on a session in the Lancer last night) is if you use these techniques, GTS rallying interprets the inputs correctly as far as the way the car behaves (the way weight transfers, and grip changes).

    As far as simulation? No. It’s far from a simulation – tracks are too wide, more grip off line, no penalties for cutting. Lateral grip is probably too low, and as @Scaff says, the way the tyres interact with the surface isn’t correct.

    But the ‘feeling’ is right.

    Better than previous versions of rallying in GT? To be honest I don’t remember – it must be 2 or 3 years since I last tried rallying in GT6… I don’t remember that being a particularly enjoyable… and I do remember that driving like that was never the fastest way round… for that you had to take the racing line, and use as much off course as you could.
     
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  8. GTP_Patrick1

    GTP_Patrick1

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    I too have the NSX and tried to qualify for Suzuka. I ran for about 30 minutes and decided the car was so hard to control that I would not do the races. I had no confidence that I could control the car in traffic. I am a fairly good driver in this game, but it seems this car needs a tune to make it somewhat usable.
     
  9. Grandi

    Grandi Premium

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    Circuits are what they are (no rally sim by any means) but driving is quite fun, need to spend a lot of effort on the weight transfer and setting up corners in advance



    Still think they would have a chance to make point-to-point stages (or let the community make them) and we could have half a rally game in our hands. Would think a stage-based structure (such as in other rally titles) would also fit the esports bill. Well, one can always hope (in vain)... ;)
     
  10. The Chosen One

    The Chosen One

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    Reading this thread now, I had always thought I was just bad at rallying when it came to Gran Turismo.

    Now I have myself an excuse to fall back on.
     
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  11. PocketZeven

    PocketZeven

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    I was trying stage 6 rally mission. TC off, no assists. Couldn't seem to finish top 3. Really difficult! Might need to turn on the assists to complete the mission. Any tips?
     
  12. xtnt5x

    xtnt5x

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    Try TC 1, brake and turn a little earlier then you can get on the gas more
     
  13. PocketZeven

    PocketZeven

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    Thnx I'll try it when GT sport releases. The demo will have ended by the time I get home from work.
     
  14. DigitalBaka

    DigitalBaka Premium

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    I am wondering if the default tunes don't contribute to some of the goofy feel. Admittedly, I have no RL experience on loose surfaces and I'm a hack at best when tuning in GT but my understanding from a few weeks doing a rally event in GT6 is that the setup on rally cars was more suited to tarmac than dirt or snow with the suspension settings being too stiff for the loose surfaces. Several folks were able to get a tune together that really changed the feel and, at least to me, felt like rallying in a video game should feel.

    I only played around with the Colorado Springs course learning events but I feel like that same thing holds true. The car felt very much more stiff and bouncy where as watching any rallying it seems like the tires and suspension are doing more of the work. Maybe I'm way off, but did anyone try playing around with settings at all? Does the demo even let you?
     
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  15. eCiD

    eCiD

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    im not saying the physics are good or anything, but im having a blast lapping colorado 1 at >night< on my RCZ grpB! the beautiful sky and especially the headlights on the road and trees are so stunning, hell i even remember feelings from reallife moments because they so nailed the lighting on that track. pure atmosphere! after a few laps i adapted to the physics and now i can't stop :]
     
  16. ToyGTone

    ToyGTone

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    I wish if they would return those random generated rally stages from GT5's special event.

    Still, I never been a big fan of the physics on rally stages.
     
  17. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    It'll be interesting to see if the tuners can come up with something that enhances realism without sacrificing speed.