Rate my lunge. JUDGE ME!

[CapraKiwi]

So last night i did the GR.3, Nurburgring daily race, and in the second lap I did a crazy lunge into the first corner which resulted in the guy i was trying to overtake pretty much putting the nose of his car into my passenger door. Well, he was not happy with that move and his response was to ram me not once, but three times.

I have done this maneuver a number of times throughout my GTS career with more successes than failures. A viewer said that it was a questionable move. I think the move was so clean you could eat off it. So clean in fact, I did it twice. Senna is looking down at that nodding his head in approval.

I kinda feel bad for reporting him, most times when i report i'm livid, but this time i found it funny. I wish i had done it in my EVO that has a Hokuto no Ken livery so i could write "omae wa mou shindeiru" in the chat at the end.

I would love to hear your input, like i said i thought it was clean, i got no penalty or SR down warning from the stewards so they thought it was legit.
Happens at 1:59:48 and 2:03:55

 

[rono_thomas]

So last night i did the GR.3, Nurburgring daily race, and in the second lap I did a crazy lunge into the first corner which resulted in the guy i was trying to overtake pretty much putting the nose of his car into my passenger door. Well, he was not happy with that move and his response was to ram me not once, but three times.

I have done this maneuver a number of times throughout my GTS career with more successes than failures. A viewer said that it was a questionable move. I think the move was so clean you could eat off it. So clean in fact, I did it twice. Senna is looking down at that nodding his head in approval.

I kinda feel bad for reporting him, most times when i report i'm livid, but this time i found it funny. I wish i had done it in my EVO that has a Hokuto no Ken livery so i could write "omae wa mou shindeiru" in the chat at the end.

I would love to hear your input, like i said i thought it was clean, i got no penalty or SR down warning from the stewards so they thought it was legit.
Happens at 1:59:48 and 2:03:55

Really need outside views to see positions of the cars, however the first one seems ok, 2nd one as long as you have achieved track position then that would seem legit.

 

[Vegard]

He should have defended the inside line or left you a car width at the apex. He would have gotten a better exit and would have had the inside line for T2. I'd say his lack of situational/spacial awareness caused the contact and cost him the position.

 

[BigJimmy]

First one was fine. Just lack of awareness and sour grapes from the other driver.

Second one was pretty much the same again but a bit cheeky.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Hard to judge from that camera view.
Your first overtake was ok I think, the second wasn't however imo.
It's a question of how much overlap gives you right of line. To me, you did not have enough overlap when the other car turned in, so you should've backed off there.

Compliments for staying that relaxed after that triple ram 👍.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

First one is better than second.

By the way, you'll be much more likely to overtake if you don't go so far to the inside. When going for the lunge, you only have to be as far outwards as the car you are overtaking. You don't have to be 4 car widths away. All you are doing is forcing yourself to go even slower than you need to, hence making it less likely to overtake and more likely to collide.

 

[JayOTT]

Extremely dirty. Even on the first lunge you're still three car lengths behind into the braking zone. And the second would've left me fuming. In fact that exact move from that exact distance back ruined an entire FIA race for me back when the damage was on heavy.

 

[VBR]

The first one was a great late lunge from you, not a divebomb at all, as shown by the fact that you were along side him before the turn in point & that you didn't overshoot the corner using the other car to lean on. The contact was entirely his fault for turning into you. You also said that his nose hit your passenger door, this confirms that you were ahead at that time, so the contact was 100% his fault imo.

The second one was entirely your fault imo. You weren't alongside by the turn in point, & this time it was your nose hitting the other drivers door, as he was in front & already turning into the corner. I still wouldn't consider it a divebomb, as you didn't overshoot the apex nor lean on the other car, but you certainly didn't pull off the lunge on that occasion either. A gentleman driver would've given the position back, & then continued racing. Driving off like you did was not very sporting imo.

Have a read of The Good Racecraft Guide if clean racing is of interest for you.


👍

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Both are dirty imo. You do not have significant overlap before turn in, therefore the apex belonged to the other car.

First one, you are both already turning while the back end of his car barely starts showing on radar

Second one is even more clear

You both are already much further into turning when his car finally shows on radar.

Even if you had significant overlap you would still not have been able to share the corner evenly. It's a bump pass.
However the other car could have seen it coming and undercut you.

 

[Leggacy]

Not really a dive bomb, a totally valid move in my opinion. You were late on the brakes and took the inside line. Your exit line would have been wider so he could have got back at you on the way out. He was behind when he hit you. You can’t take your normal line if there is already a car on that piece of track. Lack of judgment on his part and totally unforgivable behaviour afterwards.

 

[rono_thomas]

Both are dirty imo. You do not have significant overlap before turn in, therefore the apex belonged to the other car.

First one, you are both already turning while the back end of his car barely starts showing on radar

Second one is even more clear

You both are already much further into turning when his car finally shows on radar.

Even if you had significant overlap you would still not have been able to share the corner evenly. It's a bump pass.
However the other car could have seen it coming and undercut you.

The radar is not accurate to judge this. The photos you have there are still a long way from turn in.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

That was some clean driving!

 

[SjefGielen]

Coming from that far behind there is no way a safe overtake is possible, both drivers are not clean, but in my opinion this is not outbraking but divebombing.

 

[CapraKiwi]

Hey thanks everyone for your input. I'll give it up the second one was cocky and cheeky. It's good having extra sets of eyes on the track to keep morons (like me) in check. Real time stewards should be a thing in the game and make it so your earn credits and mile points.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The radar is not accurate to judge this. The photos you have there are still a long way from turn in.

That's always the question, where is the turn in point. In both screenshots, both cars are already turning. At least there was no significant overlap before turn in. Since the cars are turned slightly already, if you take a straight line across the road in those screenshots, the other car is still even further ahead.

This is what I use for safe driving

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

Shooting further ahead doesn't give you more right to the racing line imo, that's how dive bombs 'work'. In any case it was at the least a racing incident, not clean. There is also the part to let the other driver know you are there and give them time to respond. Coming from so far back, at the last moment, all the way up the inside, is not a good strategy for safe driving. Stick closer to the outside line just enough to brake up his inside just out of his slipstream. Make sure you come alongside in the braking zone so the other car has time to see you and respond.

 

[rono_thomas]

That's always the question, where is the turn in point. In both screenshots, both cars are already turning. At least there was no significant overlap before turn in. Since the cars are turned slightly already, if you take a straight line across the road in those screenshots, the other car is still even further ahead.

This is what I use for safe driving

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

Shooting further ahead doesn't give you more right to the racing line imo, that's how dive bombs 'work'. In any case it was at the least a racing incident, not clean. There is also the part to let the other driver know you are there and give them time to respond. Coming from so far back, at the last moment, all the way up the inside, is not a good strategy for safe driving. Stick closer to the outside line just enough to brake up his inside just out of his slipstream. Make sure you come alongside in the braking zone so the other car has time to see you and respond.

I dont actually think you’ve read what you have linked. I think you’d agree that an outside view is needed.

Thats a screenshot from the first paragraph of what you linked, its not who gets where in braking but who gets to the apex first in a legal manner which he does, whilst the second one is questionable the first one is not.

Unfortunately in both instances the other drivers have not adopted racing lines that involve other racers, they are still hot lapping and at turn 1 at nurb this leaves the inside vulnerable.

BTW

There is also the part to let the other driver know you are there and give them time to respond. Coming from so far back, at the last moment, all the way up the inside, is not a good strategy for safe driving. Stick closer to the outside line just enough to brake up his inside just out of his slipstream. Make sure you come alongside in the braking zone so the other car has time to see you and respond.

That is not the responsibility of the overtaking car. At all.

Both times he is alongside before the apex and in control therefore clean.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Thats a screenshot from the first paragraph of what you linked, its not who gets where in braking but who gets to the apex first in a legal manner which he does, whilst the second one is questionable the first one is not.

He had no overlap heading into the turn, the apex wasn't his to take. He was way off of the natural line and messing up the race. He had no idea that the outside car would brake that early and he was willing to risk a collision at the apex for the position. As far as I'm concerned it's a trash move even if most of the online gamers do it.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
"Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex. If the attacker is ahead at the apex, there is no dispute over ownership of the racing line. The defender must yield. But what if the attacker is only partially alongside? Who owns the apex then?"

Note the word "alongside". He was not alongside and had not established an overlap with the outside car. Instead he barged to the apex and then had to slam on the brakes to stay on the track totally screwing up any normal race line through the corner.

Now the outside driver could have easily exploited this weak pass and regained position but he spazzed out instead. When I'm driving there and I see a car way back on the inside, I assuming they're going to pull this crap but I don't expect that many people pay attention to it.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Well which is it, significant overlap before turn in, or beating the other car to the apex. Those are two very different things. (And after reading it again, @BallPtPenTheif already has the answer, it's and, not or) The first one, sure, the defender should have paid more attention. The second he's 100% at fault. Of course you're going to 'beat' the other car to the apex at a hairpin when the outside car is already further turned in.

I just got one of those passes at Big Willow, final turn, dive in from behind and push me all the way out. I saw him coming and managed to hang on to the outside edge, yet imo, he had no right to dive in right there mid corner, sacrificing exit speed.

Anyway I agree with this
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-good-racecraft-guide.183891/
And I don't race on NGP because of those dives at T1 and the chicane.

 

[rono_thomas]

He had no overlap heading into the turn, the apex wasn't his to take.

Consider the textbook method for overtaking in a corner: the attacker takes an inside line, gets alongside the defender in the braking zone, and beats the defender to the apex.

The overlap has to be achieved in the braking zone, it was, turn 1 Nurb GP needs to be trail braked for the quickest line, the attacker shows this whilst the defenders are both braking in straight lines, and therefore taking the slow unatural line, the slower way, so did the attacker get alongside in the braking zone yes and did he then have significant overlap at the apex, did he win the right to the apex yes.

Was he in control yes did he run wide because he outbraked himself no not at all in either case, there was no barging involved he couldn’t have been any more in the apex.

Well which is it, significant overlap before turn in, or beating the other car to the apex. Those are two very different things. The first one, sure, the defender should have paid more attention. The second he's 100% at fault. Of course you're going to 'beat' the other car to the apex at a hairpin when the outside car is already further turned in.

I just got one of those passes at Big Willow, final turn, dive in from behind and push me all the way out. I saw him coming and managed to hang on to the outside edge, yet imo, he had no right to dive in right there mid corner, sacrificing exit speed.

Anyway I agree with this
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-good-racecraft-guide.183891/
And I don't race on NGP because of those dives at T1 and the chicane.

And I don’t disagree.

In these two instances a significant overlap was achieved in the braking zone meaning that the attacker achieved being able to get to the apex first as these two screenshots show,

The difference to your big willow incident is that the attacker here did not push the other car wide
In fact the attacker is in front before the apex in the first incident,

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@rono_thomas You're moving the braking zone further ahead by excuse of trail braking. That way you can extend the braking zone to even past the apex. Imo, when you start the turn, you are past the turn in point. In both cases, both cars had already started turning before overlap was established. Trail braking actually moves the turn in point backwards as you start turning earlier, tightening the turn ratio while slowing down further.

By pushing wide I meant him placing his car in the way and forcing me to run wide to avoid him, there never was contact, yet that was only because I changed my line mid corner to avoid the dive. In the cases above, the defender would also have to alter his line after turn in to avoid the dive. Hence you need significant overlap before turn in, instead of forcing the other car to adjust his line mid turn.

 

[LackLucid]

Textbook dive bomb. You do not have overlap.

'Clean' or not, your arrogance more than makes up for it. You're making New Zealand look bad.

 

[rono_thomas]

@rono_thomas You're moving the braking zone further ahead by excuse of trail braking. That way you can extend the braking zone to even past the apex. Imo, when you start the turn, you are past the turn in point. In both cases, both cars had already started turning before overlap was established. Trail braking actually moves the turn in point backwards as you start turning earlier, tightening the turn ratio while slowing down further.

By pushing wide I meant him placing his car in the way and forcing me to run wide to avoid him, there never was contact, yet that was only because I changed my line mid corner to avoid the dive. In the cases above, the defender would also have to alter his line after turn in to avoid the dive. Hence you need significant overlap before turn in, instead of forcing the other car to adjust his line mid turn.

That is not the case a braking zone is just that.

If you are coasting from turn in to to apex at turn 1 nurb GP then your doing it wrong.

Neither sources provided state that a significant overlap is needed on turn in just it needs to be achieved on braking, it is, furthermore your first source states

Acheived without contact so the first incdent is 100% clean. Cannot be disputed.

Incident 2 however is nearing that fine line of a dive bomb that without an outside view and relying on radar alone means that I’d still stand by my original post.

But you guys need to understand that in certain corners the beginning of a turn in does not equal the end of the braking zone.

Edit:

That way you can extend the braking zone to even past the apex.

That would not be trail braking and that is a complete lack of understanding of the tecnique.

Trail Braking in essence extends the braking zone, correct. Still defined as the braking zone.

 

[ShiftingGears]

So last night i did the GR.3, Nurburgring daily race, and in the second lap I did a crazy lunge into the first corner which resulted in the guy i was trying to overtake pretty much putting the nose of his car into my passenger door. Well, he was not happy with that move and his response was to ram me not once, but three times.

I have done this maneuver a number of times throughout my GTS career with more successes than failures. A viewer said that it was a questionable move. I think the move was so clean you could eat off it. So clean in fact, I did it twice. Senna is looking down at that nodding his head in approval.

I kinda feel bad for reporting him, most times when i report i'm livid, but this time i found it funny. I wish i had done it in my EVO that has a Hokuto no Ken livery so i could write "omae wa mou shindeiru" in the chat at the end.

I would love to hear your input, like i said i thought it was clean, i got no penalty or SR down warning from the stewards so they thought it was legit.
Happens at 1:59:48 and 2:03:55

First one was fine, second one wasn't. Most telling is that you admitted you'd try the divebomb at Turn 1 after exiting the final corner, that's just stupid.

 

[serlemke]

risky.
Would be safe for both if you tried a better corner exit, then with slipstream passed on the straight.
For my point of view its a cut.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@rono_thomas Obviously we can't resolve this without a proper definition of the braking zone and turn in. And if we can't agree, there is no chance at the penalty system getting it right. All we have to go by is PD's "don't look bad". When I inadvertently approach someone like that, gambling wrong that I could get alongside in the braking zone, I will do my best to stay out of the way and not take the position. It feels bad to me, beyond out braking, too close to a late dive, taking the corner in a bad way to gain a position by forcing the other car out of the way.

In the end it's a risky move that did not pay off as pissing off the other drivers isn't to your advantage either. There are much better ways to overtake that don't look bad with much less risk at contact.

 

[rono_thomas]

@rono_thomas Obviously we can't resolve this without a proper definition of the braking zone and turn in. And if we can't agree, there is no chance at the penalty system getting it right. All we have to go by is PD's "don't look bad". When I inadvertently approach someone like that, gambling wrong that I could get alongside in the braking zone, I will do my best to stay out of the way and not take the position. It feels bad to me, beyond out braking, too close to a late dive, taking the corner in a bad way to gain a position by forcing the other car out of the way.

In the end it's a risky move that did not pay off as pissing off the other drivers isn't to your advantage either. There are much better ways to overtake that don't look bad with much less risk at contact.

Ok so lets move on from braking zones.

I can agree that the level of risk of this move is huge, and weighing up risk vs reward many including me wouldn’t attempt it from that far back, but lets not use PD’s crap term of not wanting to look bad, if that was followed always the racing would be sterilised and boring.

F1 metrics do define divebombing, they define it as carrying too much speed (excessive) to get to the apex first, carrying too much speed would indicate that contact was caused by the attacker because of many reasons, unable to stop the car at the apex being the one we should be concerned about, the video clearly shows in both incidents that this wasn’t the case, there was no excessive speed, albeit luckily, a tenth later on the brakes would have meant excessive speed - but there wasn’t any, so even using that definition we cant define it as a divebomb so returning to the OP’s question to judge him, I guess we are left with risk vs reward, the point being that these moves were not dirty, but, there was no margin of error left so in future when considering a late move because you think you can be or are better on the brakes is this a safe move for me to attempt or can I get this done elsewhere.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Extremely dirty. Even on the first lunge you're still three car lengths behind into the braking zone. And the second would've left me fuming. In fact that exact move from that exact distance back ruined an entire FIA race for me back when the damage was on heavy.

100% agree. You cant just bomb in from three lengths back, at some point I need to understand when to take the slower Inside line and from that far back I would think the faster racing line was fine.

This isn't racing.

 

[CapraKiwi]

Damn, it's a shame i'm not Spanish.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

The following is from another forum -ukgpl.com. Same message, with pictures.

Corner Rights

If you watch the odd few GPL drivers in action you might think the rule for corner rights goes something like, " Whatever piece of ground I can barge my way into I have the right to ". Well, ... not so. There is actually an etiquette for corner rights. It's not just for GPL, or racing sims, but is basically the same for every level of real-world motor racing - from Formula Ford to Formula 1 and everything in between. " What ! ", you say. " You mean I don't have the right to throw my car into any gap I see ? ". Actually no, you don't - and if you raced in any real-world competition the way you may race in GPL, instead of being hailed as a motor racing genius you may find yourself banned from even the lowest levels of the sport. Some of the everyday things you see in GPL simply aren't tolerated where real cars are damaged, real money is the cost of repair, and real lives are at risk.

In brief, the concept is, you must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before a corner's turn-in point to have the right for room to be left for you by the ahead driver. Substantial overlap means at least that the front of your car is up to say the driver's position in the ahead car - and that's at the very least. You probably should have more in many circumstances. The ahead driver has ever right to be fully committed to the racing line of his choice without any interference if there was no overlap before he turned in.

If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to room. The ahead driver can still battle for the place of course but must do so from a wider-out position, leaving room for the behind driver.

You can see here why overlap established after the turn-in point isn't really valid and therefore isn't honored in car racing rules. Its actually false overlap that's created by the turning movements of the cars. Its not due to one being faster than the other or one out-braking the other. In positions 1, 2, and 3, below, you can see that the Lotus has no overlap at all if you consider the straight ahead direction - shown by the blue lines. But if you take a perpendicular from the attitude of the cars, shown by the red lines, there is some overlap at position 2 and substantial overlap at position 3. This overlap is entirely false of course as the Lotus here hasn't actually out-braked or out-sped the Eagle by any amount what-so-ever - as I hope you can see form this diagram. Unfortunately many drivers think that if they do this they are some kind of out-braking genius, when in fact they are not out-preforming the other driver at all. Its a geometric illusion that has nothing to do with a driver's ability or performance. If they could really out-brake the other, they would have made some overlap before the turn-in point, not after it.

1 Before the turn-in point there's no overlap - therefore the Lotus has no right to room or to interfere with the Eagle's normal racing line in any way.

2 But, as often happens, the Lotus sees this empty zone along the inside and thinks they can zoom up into it, probably believing this to be the move of a talented racing genius.

3 Its possible to get apparent overlap after the turn-in point. The point is you shouldn't.

4 The Lotus may actually achieve their objective, forcing the Eagle out wide, who may actually not press the issue for the sake of not crashing - if they can.

5 But, if the Eagle doesn't back away, and holds their line, as they're entitled to do, this is what happens as often as not.
The issue is that the Eagle has the right to be fully committed to the racing line. In this case, the entire inside area ought to have been a no-go zone for the Lotus, who should have tucked in behind and followed the Eagle around. Of course, late braking barge drivers often end up in the hay bails, hopefully without taking you with them.

 

[splitwindow]

If you want to report him, I think it falls under race interference and illicit behaviour refers to people exploiting glitchs.
As for the incident more camera angles are needed but after a precursory 1 time viewing it does look to me like it's a very big lunge that you're making pretty late and from a long way back.
I'm not saying it was an illegal move, but definitely eyebrow raising.