real life manual cars questions.

[Kylehnat]

As you become more advanced, you will use the brake and clutch to "heel-and-toe" when downshifting for a perfect ratio to use coming uot of a turn.

That's manual-tranny master class. I've only successfully pulled off a heel-toe once (but man, was it sweet ). Heel-toeing is never necessary during normal driving, and a lot of cars today do not have decent pedals for doing it. I think ddldave has more urgent concerns anyway .

 

[ExigeEvan]

On the topic of stopping, I've seen a lot of people saying they stop, put the car in neutral and then apply the handbrake. That is wrong, you stop, you keep the car in gear with the clutch pressed, then you put the handbrake on, then you go into neutral. Although some leave it in gear, I only do if I'm parked on a slope.

People put it in neutral before the handbrake!?

Most driving instructors nowadays are quite regimental in that you stop, clutch in, handbrake, first gear, and you stay like that untill the lights change... No matter how long you have to wait

 

[Sage]

People put it in neutral before the handbrake!?

Most driving instructors nowadays are quite regimental in that you stop, clutch in, handbrake, first gear, and you stay like that untill the lights change... No matter how long you have to wait

Doesn’t that wear out the throwout bearing?

And I’m surprised that you all go through so many safety measures just for waiting at a light – usually I just stick it in neutral and stay on the footbrake.

Plus, what happens if I accidentally lift off? I might roll a few inches and then catch myself. What if you accidentally lift off while holding the clutch down and the parking brake up? Your car jumps forward, accelerating and decelerating in the blink of an eye, and you get the 🤬 scared out of you (and if your parking brake is weak, you rear-end the car in front of you).

That's manual-tranny master class. I've only successfully pulled off a heel-toe once (but man, was it sweet ). Heel-toeing is never necessary during normal driving, and a lot of cars today do not have decent pedals for doing it.

It’s not strictly necessary, but it does save your clutch wear and tear – for that reason alone, I try to heel-and-toe most of the time in my M3. The pedals aren’t the greatest for it, but in that car you seem to only need a tiny blip to get the engine and clutch synchronized.

 

[Kylehnat]

Unless you go out of your way to abuse the clutch, it should last a very long time.

Under heavy braking, the pedals in the 3 line up quite nicely for heel-toe. Of course, we wouldn't want to drive the 3 aggressively, would we? My biggest problem is the lazy throttle response. You request a blip, and you must wait 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Doesn’t that wear out the throwout bearing?

I raised this point before, but apparantley it's unlikely, and its the diaphram springs I'd be more worried about. Obviousley, I don't say you should do this in dead-stop traffic, but at traffic lights your supposed to. Though I'l add I don't do it now I've passed unless know the lights change is short.

And I’m surprised that you all go through so many safety measures just for waiting at a light – usually I just stick it in neutral and stay on the footbrake.

But that blinds the people behind you. Brake lighe glare equals the suck!

Plus, what happens if I accidentally lift off? I might roll a few inches and then catch myself. What if you accidentally lift off while holding the clutch down and the parking brake up? Your car jumps forward, accelerating and decelerating in the blink of an eye, and you get the 🤬 scared out of you (and if your parking brake is weak, you rear-end the car in front of you).

What if someone goes into teh back of you? Your foot comes off the break in shock or slips and you roll out into the junction and get T-boned.

Stalling isn't half as dramatic as you make out, christ the worst thing is how embarrasing it is, its such a rookie mistake.

 

[ddldave]

can you teach me how to heel and toe clutch?

 

[ExigeEvan]

If that was aimed at me, no. I have no clue. But I'm sure there's people here that could.

 

[daan]

can you teach me how to heel and toe clutch?

You don't heel and toe clutch. You use heel and toe to press the throttle and brake at the same time.

But you're trying to run before you can walk.

 

[Famine]

And it's a waste of time on public roads.

 

[ExigeEvan]

And it's a waste of time on public roads.

Even in the Brecons?

 

[YSSMAN]

But you're trying to run before you can walk.

Quite right, and even then, not all cars have their pedals place properly in order for you to perform this task with your foot. My VW's brake pedal is placed too high to make heel-toe shifting possible, despite the fact that I have attempted it before with minimal results.

Like Famine said, its better to just drive normal when on normal roads.

 

[Wolfe]

Just trying to pass on a bit of my (limited) knowledge.

I'm sorry, my response came off harsher than it should have.

 

[TopHat]

Hey, this thread is great! Very informative read.

 

[Azuremen]

can you teach me how to heel and toe clutch?

Like everyone else said, its like running before you can walk. Or maybe flying.

It requires you to be fairly familiar with down shifting, up shifting, how the engine responds to gas, and all that jazz.

And its not needed on public roads at all anyhow.

 

[Muzaffar]

can you teach me how to heel and toe clutch?

Nah, I think you need to learn how to brake with your right feet first, then with your left feet, then only you can learn how to do heel toe. But most importantly of all, you need to get a car and a drivers license first!!!! But like everyone said, its like learning to run before you walk, or like I would say "trying to tie a show without shoelaces...."

 

[Azuremen]

Nah, I think you need to learn how to brake with your right feet first, then with your left feet, then only you can learn how to do heel toe. But most importantly of all, you need to get a car and a drivers license first!!!! But like everyone said, its like learning to run before you walk, or like I would say "trying to tie a show without shoelaces...."

Braking with your left is not relevant at all. And it has nothing to do with toe and heel...

Left foot braking is only relevant in rally type situations, and only with cars setup for it pretty much. Other than that, you have no reason to. Well, turbo's I guess, but bleh to massive turbos.

 

[Muzaffar]

Braking with your left is not relevant at all. And it has nothing to do with toe and heel...

Left foot braking is only relevant in rally type situations, and only with cars setup for it pretty much. Other than that, you have no reason to. Well, turbo's I guess, but bleh to massive turbos.

Well I think left foot braking is better than a heel-toe. But what do you think is harder to do? I know heel-toes are harder to do, but you can have your other foot on the clutch so you can shift easily. While with left foot braking, you have your right foot on the throttle at all times and have better control of your throttle than with a heel-toe.

But meh, your not going to do this on the street are you? Its just simply a racing technique that we will rarely use while normal driving......

 

[Perfect Balance]

Well I think left foot braking is better than a heel-toe. But what do you think is harder to do? I know heel-toes are harder to do, but you can have your other foot on the clutch so you can shift easily. While with left foot braking, you have your right foot on the throttle at all times and have better control of your throttle than with a heel-toe.

But meh, your not going to do this on the street are you? Its just simply a racing technique that we will rarely use while normal driving......

You can't compare those two, they are used in completely different situations.

Heel-toe is a smooth way of downshifting, and left foot braking is, well, left foot braking.


Also, you only use heel-toe while slowing down, so you don't need "better" control of the throttle.

EDIT: For me, left foot braking is harder to do. I have almost no modulation with my left foot. I always manage to slam on the brakes when I try using my left foot.

 

[ExigeEvan]

EDIT: For me, left foot braking is harder to do. I have almost no modulation with my left foot. I always manage to slam on the brakes when I try using my left foot.

A common problem when people switch from manual to automatics and adopt to using both feet. Which I'd like to add you should because of the obvious reaction advantage.

 

[Kylehnat]

Reaction advantage? We're driving on the street, not flying an F-18 in combat.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yeah and little Timmy is running infront of a car doing 30mph and not a granny with her zimmer frame.

 

[TheBigMan045]

I have tried left foot braking but all i ended up doing was locking the brakes. But right foot braking can still be used for performance driving

 

[somebody]

Under normal driving conditions left foot braking offers no significant advantage. Left foot braking can also lead to bad habits like leaving the left foot resting slightly against the brake pedal so the brake lights stay on. This means drivers behind you can't tell when you really are applying the brakes.

But I'm sure other people feel left foot braking is the end all and be all of driving, so meh.

 

[moaibob]

Left foot braking is useless in normal driving. and since few years ago, neither F1 drivers were doing it. If you have an electro-actuate gear box (and no clutch) it may become useful if you have a sporty (and dangerous) driving on the public road.

Heel & toe is always useless. It was applied by drivers in the '60 and '70 races, where gearboxes had no synchronizers, and you had to gas a bit to shift down while braking at the limit of the bend. I used to do it when driving my mom's 1967 fiat 500. You had to make what we call "doppietta", that is the double-clutching, to avoid gear scratches.
while driving i.e. on 3rg gear and you need to shift down:
1-leave gas
2-push clutch (contemporarily to #1)
3-shift neutral
4-leave clutch
5-give and leave gas (contemporarily to #4)
6-push clutch (contemporarily to #5)
7-shift lower gear
8-leave clutch and give gas
all of this (easier doing than writing it) can be speeded by the heel-toe manouver
But nowadays, all cars have sync gearboxes and this is almost useless, since the lower gear fits very smooth even at high rpm

Edit: how various is the world! Here in Italy it is quite rare to drive an auto geared car... and over there, there's people that never drove a manual gear car... sounds so strange to me!

 

[Gil]

can you teach me how to heel and toe clutch?

Go back to my first post and read all that stuff in CAPs and bolded.👍

 

[buickgnx88]

Edit: how various is the world! Here in Italy it is quite rare to drive an auto geared car... and over there, there's people that never drove a manual gear car... sounds so strange to me!

I know, it's stupid! I'm American and I learned to drive on a stick because it's so much fun, in fact my current vehicle is a stick. I suppose people over here want automatics so they can put on their makeup and eat their cheeseburgers while they drive!

 

[ExigeEvan]

I know, it's stupid! I'm American and I learned to drive on a stick because it's so much fun, in fact my current vehicle is a stick. I suppose people over here want automatics so they can put on their makeup and eat their cheeseburgers while they drive!

What, you can't do that driving stick? Amateur.

 

[Duke]

And it's a waste of time on public roads.

I disagree. I heel and toe nearly every downshift. It takes a couple weeks to get in real practice, but once you do, it is second nature. It really makes your driving smoother, and I get phenomenal life out of my clutches.

I'm with Sage on the sitting in neutral. It's not the end of the world to stay with the clutch in, but why wear the throwout bearing and clutch springs if you don't need to? If you're paying the slightest bit of attention it's easy to pop the car into gear a second before your light turns green, so you are ready to go/

I also don't see the point of the handbrake at stoplights. I want my brakelights on, showing any traffic coming up from behind that I am stopped.

On the subject of left-foot braking, I never do that. I tried, but I found that I braked much too early, too hard, and too often. From watching other left footers drive, that seems to be a very common problem. The only time I could see really using LFB is of you have a turbo racecar and you need to keep load on the engine during turns to keep the boost up.

 

[moaibob]

I know, it's stupid! I'm American and I learned to drive on a stick because it's so much fun, in fact my current vehicle is a stick. I suppose people over here want automatics so they can put on their makeup and eat their cheeseburgers while they drive!

Yep

but needless to say, i'd rather have automatic when stuck in the rush hour traffic of the city... less left calf cramps.... clutch-gas-clutch-gas-clutch-gas-clutch.......

[OT]
...and girls here put makeup with manual gear too. just a little practice needed, et voilà, their Lancia Y/nissan micra/VW Lupo become a beauty farm in the middle of the crosslight
[/OT]

 

[ExigeEvan]

I also don't see the point of the handbrake at stoplights. I want my brakelights on, showing any traffic coming up from behind that I am stopped.

So even the guy who's already stopped behind you must know that you have some nice bright red lights on the back of your car?

I can understand that argument if you used it when you were the only person at the traffic lights, but how often are you the only person at those lights?

And all you that speak of wearing out the throwout bearing, you realise that staying on the breaks while stopped after heavy breaking will lead to pitting on your disk brakes, yeah?