real life manual cars questions.

[moaibob]

I disagree. I heel and toe nearly every downshift. It takes a couple weeks to get in real practice, but once you do, it is second nature. It really makes your driving smoother, and I get phenomenal life out of my clutches.

I can't see the point, Duke.
Where's the advantage in heel&toe-ing with a sync gearbox? As I wrote before, the heel&toe is for those old cars with no sync gearbox, when you are approaching a bend and you need to brake and contemporarily shift down (pushing clutch pedal) while giving gas to avoid gear scratches (all of three pedals in use).
This won't happen with a synchronized gearbox that you can find on every modern car.
Do you own a vintage car? Or is there something i am ignoring about?

 

[FoolKiller]

So even the guy who's already stopped behind you must know that you have some nice bright red lights on the back of your car?

I can understand that argument if you used it when you were the only person at the traffic lights, but how often are you the only person at those lights?

What kind of brake lights are you all using over there? I have never had brake lights cause an annoying glare, and I have congenital cataracts so I get cataract glare on wet roads.

 

[ExigeEvan]

What kind of brake lights are you all using over there? I have never had brake lights cause an annoying glare, and I have congenital cataracts so I get cataract glare on wet roads.

I'll keep an eye out for the car models over the next few nights.

 

[buickgnx88]

The nice thing about having a manual is on flat roads at a stoplight, you can stay off the brakes and the clutch and stay in place. Of course my Jeep has problems idling in cold weather and several lights here in town are on hills so I have to keep the clutch partially engaged while giving it a bit of gas. It keeps me in place and keeps the engine from wanting to stall...of course it probably isn't the best for the clutch, but I'll be getting a new one next summer anyways!

 

[Scaff]

I can't see the point, Duke.
Where's the advantage in heel&toe-ing with a sync gearbox? As I wrote before, the heel&toe is for those old cars with no sync gearbox, when you are approaching a bend and you need to brake and contemporarily shift down (pushing clutch pedal) while giving gas to avoid gear scratches (all of three pedals in use).
This won't happen with a synchronized gearbox that you can find on every modern car.
Do you own a vintage car? Or is there something i am ignoring about?

I'm with Duke on this one, I heel and toe almost every downshift, its not just a technique for gearboxes without syncros (double de-clutching would be more important for that and is a different thing and is what you have wrongly described as heel and toe). Heel and toe shift help smooth out downshifts massively, which makes for a much more pleasant ride for yourself and any passengers, it also helps with 'spirited' driving as you can match the gear. engine speed and road speed to the corner in question in one action allowing you more time to set the car up.

In addition the last thing you want is to drive into a corner hard on the brakes, bang it down two gears and have the driven wheels lock when you let the clutch out (well not if you want to stay facing the right way).

For me it has numerous advantages, no disadvantages and will help you focus on your driving techniques. The end result is that you will be a better, smoother driver in all situations; as at the very least regular heel and toeing keeps your technique up to scratch.

How to heel & toe - Click to view



Regards

Scaff

 

[moaibob]

ok, got it. I misunderstood the meaning. But i have smooth downshifts without heel and toe, just braking before the corner, then downshift and banlance the engine revs with the wheel speed before releasing the clutch pedal. I never experienced the "engine lash" that this tecnique is supposed to solve (also downshifting two gerars in one - i.e. 4th to 2nd).
I'll check this out anyway...

 

[Duke]

I do it mostly, as Scaff notes, for smoothness. It avoids having to release the clutch very slowly in order to bring the engine revs up without a jolt to the driveline. So it's easier on things and it doesn't add any wear and tear to the clutch.

As I said after a few weeks of practicing I got to where I could do it without thinking about it. Several upsides and no downsides.

On the subject of brakes, yes, if you keep the pads clamped against very hot rotors, there can be problems. But under 90% of normal driving my brakes just aren't that hot.

 

[Roo]

II also don't see the point of the handbrake at stoplights. I want my brakelights on, showing any traffic coming up from behind that I am stopped.

Personally, when I get to a red light, I'll pop the handbrake on but keep my foot on the brake pedal. When the car behind stops, I release the brakes so that the brakelights turn off but the handbrake is holding the car.

 

[Giancarlo]

Why are you guys asking/explaining so much about downshifting? My daily driver is a manual and i almost never downshift unless i have to overtake somebody on the highway. I never use it to slow down, that's simply a waste of gas because your engine is revving higher and a huge strain on your gears.

In terms of being at too low an RPM, though, i try to avoid downshifting into 2nd unless i'm going sub-20 mph...and 1st you should never downshift into.

 

[Sureboss]

And you should never down shift from 1st...

 

[Scaff]

ok, got it. I misunderstood the meaning. But i have smooth downshifts without heel and toe, just braking before the corner, then downshift and banlance the engine revs with the wheel speed before releasing the clutch pedal. I never experienced the "engine lash" that this tecnique is supposed to solve (also downshifting two gerars in one - i.e. 4th to 2nd).
I'll check this out anyway...

From what you have described you are getting your braking done and then finishing changing gear, which is something (unless going to a stop) I would never do. Heel and toe allows you to get the gear change done, clutch out and then finish braking, which is much more efficent and controlled method of reducing speed. Particularly if the difference in speed between the approach and the corner is large (for example 60mph to a 20mph corner), while this is a much more common situation on a track (and greater speed differences can be involved), heel and toe changes do smooth out every downshift and allow you to drive more quickly, but in a much more controlled manner.

So when you are on an empty backroad you can push the car and yourself that little bit more in a safe manner, and when you get to a track it allows you to make the most of every corner. Done correctly heel and toe changes are the smoothest and most efficient method of downshifting, lets be honest it would not be taught as a racing technique if this was not the case.

Why are you guys asking/explaining so much about downshifting? My daily driver is a manual and i almost never downshift unless i have to overtake somebody on the highway. I never use it to slow down, that's simply a waste of gas because your engine is revving higher and a huge strain on your gears.

In terms of being at too low an RPM, though, i try to avoid downshifting into 2nd unless i'm going sub-20 mph...and 1st you should never downshift into.

The reason why I do it is to try and shift as well as possible with every gear change.

In regards to it putting a huge strain on your gears well heel and toe avoids sudden changes in torque loading on the gears, which is exactly the reason why we are discussing it. As long as you avoid sudden changes in loading the strain of simply being at higher revs is not going to put any more strain on your gears than they were designed to take.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Giancarlo]

The reason why I do it is to try and shift as well as possible with every gear change.

What car are you driving though? I've been going 55,000 miles on my RSX of putting it in neutral then picking a gear (even if it's 5th to 3rd, or what have you) without a hitch.

 

[Scaff]

What car are you driving though? I've been going 55,000 miles on my RSX of putting it in neutral then picking a gear (even if it's 5th to 3rd, or what have you) without a hitch.

Currently drive a 320i M-Sport (with 19k on the clock in 9 months), but this has nothing to do with having an problems with the gearbox. Quite the opposite it has a wonderful shift on it and a pedal set-up that is ideal for heel and toe changes.

Prior to that I had a Celica for 4 years/82k, and again heel and toe'd every change; I could keep going back a lot further than that as well. I learned to heel and toe many, many years ago and it does make a huge difference to both how smoothly you can change and how you can set a car up for a corner. On track its an invaluable technique and on the road it can make a big difference as well, especially on a favourite empty back road.

What I mean by shifting as well as possible is nothing to do with the car, rather about perfecting my own driving technique.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Perfect Balance]

Sort of on topic, but are anyone else's pedals worn out after heel-toeing?

My right side of the brake pedal and left side of the gas pedal are worn smooth.

It helps in the snow too when you have to be a lot more smooth.

 

[Kylehnat]

And you should never down shift from 1st...

True dat. The shift from 1 to R is quite rough .

 

[Wolfe]

I've been going 55,000 miles on my RSX of putting it in neutral then picking a gear (even if it's 5th to 3rd, or what have you) without a hitch.

If I'm reading this right, this is what I do in normal driving, because it's a lazy way to rev-match downshifts when you aren't moving quickly and don't need to shift quickly (as you do in performance driving).

Depress clutch, shift into neutral, use throttle to match RPM, shift into lower gear, release clutch.

Works great for turning left from a 35mph street into a parking lot, as I often do while heading in to work -- 5th to 3rd in that case. For my own amusement, or if I feel like being particularly nice to my synchros, I'll sometimes even double-clutch it.

 

[moaibob]

From what you have described you are getting your braking done and then finishing changing gear, which is something (unless going to a stop) I would never do. Heel and toe allows you to get the gear change done, clutch out and then finish braking, which is much more efficent and controlled method of reducing speed. Particularly if the difference in speed between the approach and the corner is large (for example 60mph to a 20mph corner), while this is a much more common situation on a track (and greater speed differences can be involved), heel and toe changes do smooth out every downshift and allow you to drive more quickly, but in a much more controlled manner.

So when you are on an empty backroad you can push the car and yourself that little bit more in a safe manner, and when you get to a track it allows you to make the most of every corner. Done correctly heel and toe changes are the smoothest and most efficient method of downshifting, lets be honest it would not be taught as a racing technique if this was not the case.

Well, it seems just a different drive style. I use to take advantage by the engine braking when approaching a corner. I never get too close to the corner with an large speed difference; my style is braking early, then downshift while getting light on the brake pedal and when the mechanical braking is over, brake again, if needed, otherwise i give gas to approach the corner in half/full throttle. This happens before i get to the corner. Notice that i have a FF car and approaching corners in acceleration is more effective than braking while bending, since I prefer oversteer to understeer.
My Bora TDI has a good torque and the sensation it gives is quite pleasant when cornering (does this word exists?) in full throttle.

BTW, i tried heel & toe yesterday but my gas/brake pedals are not so aligned and the foot torsion for H&T is quite uncomfortable.

 

[Scaff]

Well, it seems just a different drive style. I use to take advantage by the engine braking when approaching a corner. I never get too close to the corner with an large speed difference; my style is braking early, then downshift while getting light on the brake pedal and when the mechanical braking is over, brake again, if needed, otherwise i give gas to approach the corner in half/full throttle. This happens before i get to the corner. Notice that i have a FF car and approaching corners in acceleration is more effective than braking while bending, since I prefer oversteer to understeer.
My Bora TDI has a good torque and the sensation it gives is quite pleasant when cornering (does this word exists?) in full throttle.

BTW, i tried heel & toe yesterday but my gas/brake pedals are not so aligned and the foot torsion for H&T is quite uncomfortable.

I personally never use engine braking while downshifting, as you can end up locking the tyres up (particularly if you are already braking hard or the conditions are slippery). Your method (which a lot of people use) separates braking and shifting into different stages, the advantage of heel and toe is that you are doing both at the same time, you downshift while braking but avoid the issues of engine/compression braking causing problems while downshifting. It shortens the overall time taken to do both, which allows you to brake later, but with more control.

Heel and toe is uncomfortable when you first start to tray and learn it, even if your pedals are well set-up for it, remember your are trying to get your feet to do something they are not yet trained to do. That said a lot of VW/Audi's don't have ideal pedal placement, which can make it a bit more difficult.


Regards

Scaff

 

[moaibob]

I personally never use engine braking while downshifting, as you can end up locking the tyres up (particularly if you are already braking hard or the conditions are slippery).

Wheel lock happens if you are downshifting and taking the engine to high regime and/or if clutch is suddenly released.
I approach the corners as above mentioned if the engine is supposed to get to a maximum of 2000 rpm in the lower gear, and smoothly releasing the clutch. in this situation it is impossible to lock tires by the mech brake that with this procedure is almost imperceptible.
I am convinced that with a sporty driving H&T may become useful, but not in everyday relaxed driving, when you can easily get to the corner at the adequate speed/gear, avoiding to brake at the beginning or along the corner (that i consider quite more dangerous).

Ciao
Roberto

P.S.: are we still on topic?

 

[Scaff]

Wheel lock happens if you are downshifting and taking the engine to high regime and/or if clutch is suddenly released.
I approach the corners as above mentioned if the engine is supposed to get to a maximum of 2000 rpm in the lower gear, and smoothly releasing the clutch. in this situation it is impossible to lock tires by the mech brake that with this procedure is almost imperceptible.
I am convinced that with a sporty driving H&T may become useful, but not in everyday relaxed driving, when you can easily get to the corner at the adequate speed/gear, avoiding to brake at the beginning or along the corner (that i consider quite more dangerous).

Ciao
Roberto

P.S.: are we still on topic?

Strictly speaking you can lock-up the tyres in a wide range of circumstances (the only common factor is that braking is involved), heel and toe will minimise the possibility as much as can be done.

You are right that heel and toe has more benifits in 'spirited' driving, but to say it has no use in everyday driving I would not agree with. Done well it can be smoother, but most of all it keeps you in practice.

You are also right that braking into a corner can be dangerous and as much braking as possible should be done before the corner (and again heel and toe will allow you to set the car up in a more balanced manner here), but done correctly trail braking can smooth out the approach to a corner.

It mainly down to the corner in question and the experience of the driver.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Azuremen]

You can always lock up the tires... you just don't have the weather for it.

Try a 1000 RPM shift in the snow and see what happens.

Toe and heel is just very nice to know and use in less than ideal situations I have found. Makes me feel much better about down shifting on ice and snow.

 

[moaibob]

Maybe, but i keep my opinion. In this link,

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html

i've found a description and what makes me wonder is that this example shows that the driver is keeping clutch down along the corner. I never approach or make a corner with the clutch in... It makes me feel uncomfortable about the behavior of the car making a corner in a "neutral" (read as clutch in) gear position. i get to the beginning of the corner with the correct gear already in and with the clutch off, the gas already open.
Maybe I need to see personally someone doing it to feel the difference and possibly change opinion.
Ciao
Rob

 

[Scaff]

Maybe, but i keep my opinion. In this link,

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html

i've found a description and what makes me wonder is that this example shows that the driver is keeping clutch down along the corner. I never approach or make a corner with the clutch in... It makes me feel uncomfortable about the behavior of the car making a corner in a "neutral" (read as clutch in) gear position. i get to the beginning of the corner with the correct gear already in and with the clutch off, the gas already open.
Maybe I need to see personally someone doing it to feel the difference and possibly change opinion.
Ciao
Rob

Uhh that description of heel and toe does not show the clutch being kept in around the corner when heel and toeing at all, the descripition of how not to change gear correctly in that article mentions it.

I would quite agree (as does the article) that coasting around a corner is very dangerous.

I would also echo the final words of that piece....

So, let's recap. It's fun to do. It improves driving safety. It reduces the amount of powertrain wear on your car. Other than the amount of time it takes to learn, there is no downside. What more could you want?

Regards

Scaff

 

[moaibob]

Uhh that description of heel and toe does not show the clutch being kept in around the corner when heel and toeing at all, the descripition of how not to change gear correctly in that article mentions it.

the article also states:
"but racecar drivers use it all the time. Once mastered, the heel-and-toe downshift offers the benefits of reduced vehicle wear-and-tear, better driver control and faster lap times on a racetrack."

Racecar drivers? fastest laps? Racetrack?
That gives value to what I stated: in normal driving it is completely useless.
If you drive a STi or a EVO VII on French Alps, taking it to the limit to have fun during a tarmac rally, ok, you score.
How less you wear and tear your vehicle, using h&t in normal daily driving (my clutch and gearbox are perfecly performing after 262000 km) ?
Do you gain some tens of seconds with h&t to reach home after working?
What if you miss the brake pedal for the wet on the sole of your shoe while passing a corner?

I never meant that h&t is bad. I'd like to learn this tecnique but for sporty driving spots only, possibly on a track.

👍
R

 

[Azuremen]

the article also states:
"but racecar drivers use it all the time. Once mastered, the heel-and-toe downshift offers the benefits of reduced vehicle wear-and-tear, better driver control and faster lap times on a racetrack."

Racecar drivers? fastest laps? Racetrack?
That gives value to what I stated: in normal driving it is completely useless.
If you drive a STi or a EVO VII on French Alps, taking it to the limit to have fun during a tarmac rally, ok, you score.
How less you wear and tear your vehicle, using h&t in normal daily driving (my clutch and gearbox are perfecly performing after 262000 km) ?
Do you gain some tens of seconds with h&t to reach home after working?
What if you miss the brake pedal for the wet on the sole of your shoe while passing a corner?

I never meant that h&t is bad. I'd like to learn this tecnique but for sporty driving spots only, possibly on a track.

👍
R

You seem to over look what race driving focuses heavily on - smoothness. Toe and Heel is vastly smoother than most methods of down-shifting, in addition to being faster and easier on your car. The method you describe, where you place the car in neutral and such, sounds somewhat awkward and rather un-flexible. It also seems you are not entirely familiar with your car if you are concerned you may upset it radically by shifting mid-corner. In any normal street conditions, shifting mid-corner is perfectly fine, as you are no where near the threshold of your car.

I do not know if you have had track time of any sort, but I have found applying track methods to street driving tends to result in smoother driving all around, even when I am not pushing it at all.

 

[moaibob]

I never said I put my car in neutral. I just said I do all the downshift stuff before the corner and I never had the need to downshift along it. And, maybe I am a 14-years-ago-licensed rookie with no track experience, but I always considered the engine-brake when downshifting as an advantage and not as a problem, even preserving the smoothness of the ride: you just have to be delicate while pulling the clutch off.
That's it, if you believe.

 

[Jim Prower]

What's this "Double Clutch" business? I've heard of Heel-And-Toe, (Tried it with my 3-speed auto...does work, but I wouldnt' reccommend it...) But how do you Double-Clutch?

 

[moaibob]

What's this "Double Clutch" business? I've heard of Heel-And-Toe, (Tried it with my 3-speed auto...does work, but I wouldnt' reccommend it...) But how do you Double-Clutch?

check it in post #84

 

[Scaff]

the article also states:
"but racecar drivers use it all the time. Once mastered, the heel-and-toe downshift offers the benefits of reduced vehicle wear-and-tear, better driver control and faster lap times on a racetrack."

Racecar drivers? fastest laps? Racetrack?
That gives value to what I stated: in normal driving it is completely useless.
If you drive a STi or a EVO VII on French Alps, taking it to the limit to have fun during a tarmac rally, ok, you score.
How less you wear and tear your vehicle, using h&t in normal daily driving (my clutch and gearbox are perfecly performing after 262000 km) ?
Do you gain some tens of seconds with h&t to reach home after working?
What if you miss the brake pedal for the wet on the sole of your shoe while passing a corner?

I never meant that h&t is bad. I'd like to learn this tecnique but for sporty driving spots only, possibly on a track.

👍
R

I never said I put my car in neutral. I just said I do all the downshift stuff before the corner and I never had the need to downshift along it. And, maybe I am a 14-years-ago-licensed rookie with no track experience, but I always considered the engine-brake when downshifting as an advantage and not as a problem, even preserving the smoothness of the ride: you just have to be delicate while pulling the clutch off.
That's it, if you believe.

As Azuremen says so well, just because a technique is of principal use on the track does not make it pointless or useless on the road. Quite the opposite, smoothness of input, sympathy for the car and its controls, feel, and an understanding of the physics involved will all make you a better driver.

You are also being very selective about the quotes you use from that article, as it also says....

The great thing is that you don't have to be a racecar driver or be on a racetrack to use it. Additionally, using the heel-and-toe downshift technique on the street can improve safety. In certain emergency situations, you might be required to brake heavily and then accelerate quickly. By heel-and-toe downshifting, your car will be in the best gear to achieve maximum acceleration.

...as for missing the pedal because of wet feet!!!! You could just as easily do that with standard braking, just make sure your shoes are dry and suitable for driving. In addition if the roads are that wet, then heel and toe is going to help you keep the car under much more control.

Personally I'm not a big fan of engine braking when downshifting, compression/engine braking in this situation is unpredictable and will only effect the driven wheels. In a RWD car (as I drive) the last thing I want when approaching a corner is even the smallest chance of the rear wheels locking up. Simply put the engine drives the car and the brakes stop the car, and that's how I use them.

What I find a bit odd here is that you have no direct experience of comparing the two, yet you are dismissing anyone who does. So far three of us (Azuremen, Duke and myself) have all explained how this is the smoothest way of shifting and given the benefit of our own real world experience, yet you are maintaining that we are wrong????

You seem to over look what race driving focuses heavily on - smoothness. Toe and Heel is vastly smoother than most methods of down-shifting, in addition to being faster and easier on your car. The method you describe, where you place the car in neutral and such, sounds somewhat awkward and rather un-flexible. It also seems you are not entirely familiar with your car if you are concerned you may upset it radically by shifting mid-corner. In any normal street conditions, shifting mid-corner is perfectly fine, as you are no where near the threshold of your car.

I do not know if you have had track time of any sort, but I have found applying track methods to street driving tends to result in smoother driving all around, even when I am not pushing it at all.

If I could +Rep you for that I would.

What's this "Double Clutch" business? I've heard of Heel-And-Toe, (Tried it with my 3-speed auto...does work, but I wouldnt' reccommend it...) But how do you Double-Clutch?

It only really needed on cars with non-syncro gearboxes....

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=190


...hope that explains.


Regards

Scaff

 

[TheCracker]

You seem to over look what race driving focuses heavily on - smoothness. Toe and Heel is vastly smoother than most methods of down-shifting, in addition to being faster and easier on your car. The method you describe, where you place the car in neutral and such, sounds somewhat awkward and rather un-flexible. It also seems you are not entirely familiar with your car if you are concerned you may upset it radically by shifting mid-corner. In any normal street conditions, shifting mid-corner is perfectly fine, as you are no where near the threshold of your car.

I do not know if you have had track time of any sort, but I have found applying track methods to street driving tends to result in smoother driving all around, even when I am not pushing it at all.

Smoothness is the key to this whole 'Heel and Toe in everyday driving' argument. Race drivers either use the technique because they have to or they use it because the smoothness it brings gives the car they are driving better stability. A race car spends 95% of the time driving on the absolute limit, whether this limit is maximum acceleration, maximum braking or maximum cornering. Stability in these situations is paramount to keeping in control of the vehicle and therefore not spinning or crashing.

Although you are highly unlikely to ever drive to these extremes on the road, the whole issue of smoothness/stability is still going to help you when you drive your road car in a spirited manor. Engine braking can only possibly put more stress through your whole drivetrain. As someone else on these boards once pointed out - disks and pads are much cheaper to replace then any major engine components so why not utilise them?