Rear Wings on FF cars

[Johnnypenso]

That's news to me. I wasn't aware that there was even a single car where any aero parts other than the rear wing made any difference at all. All the cars I've seen have exactly the same numbers no matter what other parts you put on. I've never noticed any "hidden" effect on track either. Not saying you're wrong as I haven't checked everything(particularly on-track performance), but do you know of any examples? This has been a minor preoccupation and irritation of mine for a long time, is why I'm asking.

I should have clarified because even reading my own post it's a bit misleading. Front aero parts in GTAuto are all cosmetic, but there are some cars that magically gain front downforce by adding rear aero, even though no parts are added at the front of the car, cosmetically or otherwise. Sorry for the confusion

You can use the Audi R8 5.2 as an example. No wing rear added and you get no downforce. Add a rear wing only (there are no cosmetic aero parts available) and you get 10 (fixed) at the front and I believe 25-40 at the back. The 4.2 is the same, 458 Italia and a few others. Not sure off the top of my head it's been a long time since I've driven any of them.

You can try my Civic RM currently shared on my account, it has rear wing at low value, bring it to Spa, try to go flat out at Eau Rouge, it should do it, but if there's slight any mistakes, prepare for some rear tail action. The car does have oversteer, especially during aggressive trail braking. Of course it's not the car natural traits, it's just how it's tuned

Racecars are different because they have added front downforce that needs to be compensated with rear downforce to keep the car balanced. Adding rear downforce only to a street FF is what I'm saying I've never found to be beneficial in GT5, within the confines of a PP limit.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Ok, I see what you meant. I've always assumed that the "extra" downforce was always there, it's just that you can't get into the menu to see the values without installing a variable part like the wing. So if for example one car with a wing has 0 at the front and 5-15 at the rear and another one has 8 at the front and 15-25 at the rear it would mean that(assuming the wings are the same) the second car began with 8 at the front and 10 at the rear before adding the wing.

I've never noticed any increase in front grip from adding the wing, just the rear grip. But it can be difficult to be sure since you're adding both at one time and since these cars are still fairly low in downforce anyway. I'm also not always the best at detecting small performance changes from setup so I could just not be noticing it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ok, I see what you meant. I've always assumed that the "extra" downforce was always there, it's just that you can't get into the menu to see the values without installing a variable part like the wing. So if for example one car with a wing has 0 at the front and 5-15 at the rear and another one has 8 at the front and 15-25 at the rear it would mean that(assuming the wings are the same) the second car began with 8 at the front and 10 at the rear before adding the wing.

I've never noticed any increase in front grip from adding the wing, just the rear grip. But it can be difficult to be sure since you're adding both at one time and since these cars are still fairly low in downforce anyway. I'm also not always the best at detecting small performance changes from setup so I could just not be noticing it.

The Audi for sure comes with 0/0 downforce (there is no window for adjustment) before you put the wing on it. Only after you add the rear wing, does the front and rear downforce window even open and the front is locked. Not sure how many cars it happens with, but if memory serves it's just a few of the supercars. On RS tires you commonly find online, it's no advantage, but on street tires, adding that 10/25 downforce is a huge advantage in added grip with a straightline speed loss.

 

[Tornado]

There not being a window for adjustment doesn't mean that the downforce isn't there. That's how all of GT5's garage tuning was set up before they included buying parts from the garage menu. If you didn't have the parts required to adjust something, it didn't even show up on the tuning menu.

 

[Johnnypenso]

There not being a window for adjustment doesn't mean that the downforce isn't there. That's how all of GT5's garage tuning was set up before they included buying parts from the garage menu. If you didn't have the parts required to adjust something, it didn't even show up on the tuning menu.

I have no clue what that means...sorry.

 

[Tornado]

It means that something not showing up in the tuning menu doesn't mean it isn't there, because PD set it up to hide things that aren't adjustable.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It means that something not showing up in the tuning menu doesn't mean it isn't there, because PD set it up to hide things that aren't adjustable.

Sorry, still doesn't make any sense. You're basically saying it might be there, or it might not. You can't see it, but it might exist, but we don't know, and can't ever prove it.

 

[Tornado]

That's exactly right, yes. The fact that the front downforce isn't visible in the tuning menu until you equip a spoiler is not proof that the car doesn't have front downforce before you add that rear spoiler, because PD designed the tuning menu that way.


It applied just the same for the stock LSD before they added the ability to buy upgrades in the garage. Having only a stock LSD meant no LSD showed up in the garage, but that didn't mean your car had an open diff.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Can you show the rest of us where PD acknowledged this hidden downforce?

 

[Tornado]

Can you show us proof PD changed how the tuning menu is designed, and what the rear spoilers do in game, only for the handful of cars that that have a small amount of non-adjustable front downforce?



I mean, I've driven the Viper ACR rather extensively and it certainly didn't seem to drive any different (I admittedly haven't driven it probably since Spec II, and it's certainly possible that they've changed it since) whether I left the stock spoiler or added an aftermarket one and adjusted it to match the downforce of the stock one, and assuming that the tuning menu works the same for downforce as it does/did for every other option seemed like a valid conclusion to make when the first thing is taken into account; but you seem to be operating on a higher level of information.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Can you show us proof PD changed how the tuning menu is designed, and what the rear spoilers do in game, only for the handful of cars that that have a small amount of non-adjustable front downforce?

I mean, I've driven the Viper ACR rather extensively and it certainly didn't seem to drive any different (I admittedly haven't driven it probably since Spec II, and it's certainly possible that they've changed it since) whether I left the stock spoiler or added an aftermarket one and adjusted it to match the downforce of the stock one, and assuming that the tuning menu works the same for downforce as it does/did for every other option seemed like a valid conclusion to make when the first thing is taken into account; but you seem to be operating on a higher level of information.

Again, I have no clue what you're going on about. Can you show us where PD acknowledged this hidden downforce is all I'm asking.

 

[Tornado]

You said this:

The Audi for sure comes with 0/0 downforce (there is no window for adjustment) before you put the wing on it.

I'd like some quantifiable reason why that is the case, since everything I've seen when I've bothered to investigate points to the downforce being on the cars of that type regardless of if you have equipped the rear spoiler to see it.





But, to answer your question:

Can you show us where PD acknowledged this hidden downforce is all I'm asking.

Chaparral 2J. Quite obviously has downforce, and a lot of it at that, but according to the tuning menu it has none whatsoever.

 

[niky]

Can you show the rest of us where PD acknowledged this hidden downforce?

Despite no adjustability being available for them, the airbrakes on cars like the SLR and MP412C actually work. As do the fans on the Red Bull and Chapparal. So yes, there is downforce that is not tuneable via the menu.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Despite no adjustability being available for them, the airbrakes on cars like the SLR and MP412C actually work. As do the fans on the Red Bull and Chapparal. So yes, there is downforce that is not tuneable via the menu.

2 cars out of 1000+ are an exception, not a rule. And technically the majority of the Chapparal's huge grip is not from downforce, which is a force created by wind passage, pushing the car down onto the road. It's from suction, created by a vacuum system and maybe that's why PD didn't include it as adjustable aero because it isn't aero. And doesn't the X1 have both a fan system and adjustable downforce?

All of which doesn't prove that FF's or ordinary street cars, somehow have magical downforce that we can't see. Again, show me where PD has acknowledge this and you win.

 

[niky]

2 cars out of 1000+ are an exception, not a rule. And technically the majority of the Chapparal's huge grip is not from downforce, which is a force created by wind passage, pushing the car down onto the road. It's from suction, created by a vacuum system and maybe that's why PD didn't include it as adjustable aero because it isn't aero. And doesn't the X1 have both a fan system and adjustable downforce?

All of which doesn't prove that FF's or ordinary street cars, somehow have magical downforce that we can't see. Again, show me where PD has acknowledge this and you win.

Non-mechanical grip is still non-mechanical grip.

Still, pretty easy to see which cars have non-adjustable aero but still have downforce. The unit-less, arbitrary figures that GT5 gice will appear in the aero-adjustment screen. Just greyed out.

Not many cars have this, however. Of course, I wasn't claiming all the cars in GT5 did, merely that GT5 does model aerodynamic grip that we can't adjust.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Non-mechanical grip is still non-mechanical grip.

Still, pretty easy to see which cars have non-adjustable aero but still have downforce. The unit-less, arbitrary figures that GT5 gice will appear in the aero-adjustment screen. Just greyed out.

Not many cars have this, however. Of course, I wasn't claiming all the cars in GT5 did, merely that GT5 does model aerodynamic grip that we can't adjust.

You're missing the point. Toro is saying that there is downforce there at the front, even when there is no greyed out window and no window at all to look at because PD modelled it that way. I'm asking him to show me where PD has said that this is true. Has nothing to do with the greyed out aero, mechanical grip or sucker cars.

Like so,

It means that something not showing up in the tuning menu doesn't mean it isn't there, because PD set it up to hide things that aren't adjustable

The fact that the front downforce isn't visible in the tuning menu until you equip a spoiler is not proof that the car doesn't have front downforce before you add that rear spoiler, because PD designed the tuning menu that way.

See, invisible downforce. I don't know if that is true or not, but if someone is going to take that position, I'd like to see the proof from PD that this is actually the case. Of course all cars have some element of downforce from their shape but we're talking about wings here, not aerodynamic downforce from the shape of the body.

 

[Tornado]

All of which doesn't prove that FF's or ordinary street cars, somehow have magical downforce that we can't see.

No one ever argued that ordinary street cars had front downforce. Only that the cars that visibly have it after you add a spoiler may also have it before you do.

You're missing the point. Toro is saying that there is downforce there at the front, even when there is no greyed out window and no window at all to look at because PD modelled it that way.

No, you're the one missing the point. What I'm saying, and all I was ever saying, is that it not showing up until you can adjust it is not proof that the car doesn't have it (as I said almost word for word in the part you bolded) for a couple of reasons that you've ignored rather than debate despite never actually backing up your original assertion that there is "for sure" no front downforce before you equip a rear spoiler on any cars that have front downforce after you do so (even though you were asked to do so repeatedly). Saying that something isn't proof of something is not saying that the opposite is the case.


And I'm not going to go looking for a statement from PD that we both know doesn't exist to disprove an assertion that you never bothered supporting in the first place.

 

[Exorcet]

Toronado isn't making a claim, he's questioning yours Johnny.

From my experience, I'd say that the downforce is there whether or not the menu shows them. The Viper ACR certainly does have downforce in stock form, you can see it from an ever so slight lateral g advantage vs other cars at speed. Adding the GT Auto wing just allows you to see the front downforce.

Also in regards to what does and doesn't show up in the aero menu, we don't know if undertrays and rear diffusers like those on race cars contribute to aero separately or if PD mashed them in with the adjustable downforce numbers. Also, PD isn't even really consistent with their own units. The F1's and X1's have the same front/rear downforce range, but the X1 is far draggier with max downforce. Either the X1 has terribly inefficient wings, or the 150/250 downforce on that car is more than the 150/250 on the F1.

 

[Morgoth_666]

I'm pretty sure PD has never released a statement declaring that the fact that a window isn't there means that all values that would be in it are zero, either. As Toronado said, it used to be the case that nothing showed up in the tuning menu unless you had bought the parts - meaning that you couldn't see transmission settings, LSD settings or suspension settings until you bought the adjustable parts either. I assume downforce to work the same as that, just for some reason they still don't let you look at it like they now do with the others.