Rendering Replays to Video - yes it is a headache and a big deal

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RC45

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I know the previous thread was closed and many others have been posted, but I figured a quick explanation might save others repeating the same request over when in reality we probably dont want it as it will need to be severly restricted in capability.

Kaz please, add some SIMPLE features to the replays:

- The ability to export it to so kind of file that can be seen in a PC or Mac;
- Rewind to any point from begining to the end;
- And if not too hard: SLOWMOTIONS.

But the most important thing is the hability to send our replays to our friends around the world. Don´t need any YouTube feature. No. Just as simple as to export pictures, but with video files! We find our way to post it on internet. :)

It can´t be that hard!

Please!

If you guys agree and want that feature, please, let´s make some noise.
Thanks

The problem with the rendering of the ingame replay to some kind of video file is the processing time.

rFactor (as an example) has built in ability to render the replay to a video file - but you must understand what that means to understand why it is actually a big deal.

In order to render the replay to a video file, the programmer needs to essentially set the 3D game engine up to behave like a 3D CAD program with a high end rendering engine hooked on. You have to export each frame of motion in the 3D world from that cameras view point and write that image to disc, compiling them together into a video file and add the audio track and sync it and write the file out.

And of course who knows what video/audio codec Kaz would choose that would bring with it all sorts of other issues.

Even a decent high end PC will take longer than real-time (in other words each second of video takes longer than 1 second to render and write to disc) - on a quad core 3.8GHZ 4GB ram 1GB video card, rfactor takes hours to render a 7 minute video in hires at 60fps. Thats a lot of time for a lot of computing. I am sure this is why even Forza3's video export is severly limited in scope and resolution to save from someone accidently trying to render a 30 minute race and locking up their console for a week :lol:

Even us PC rFactor racers would rather use a Windows screen cap utility like FRAPS to make our videos. We play the replay in the game and then jsut capture the video window to disc.

Now what we do use is the Director feature in rFactor to edit the videos - this lets you set start/end times of clips and change camera views and cars and then save that "edited replay" back to the game. It is still an ingame replay, but it uses the camera angles and car views we want for the cuts we like. A replay director in GT5 would be great and probably more useful than a video exporter.

These edited replay files can be viewed at any time in the future and the game will simply process the replay as ingame footage just like GT5 does now.

I would not really want my PS3 tied up for hours on end rendering a movie that in the end I might not like and needed to render again and edit on the PC with proper video editing tools anyway.

(Perhaps the mods might stick this in the Q&A section instead of it hanging out as its own thread)
 
It should be fairly easy for them to add this "FRAPS" type of capability of screen capture to the game. The export of the replay would then, of course, take as long as the replay itself. But it shouldn't take any longer than that, provided PD doesn't decide to increase the resolution/quality in the way they do for photo travel. If they do then I can see how exporting the replay could take many hours even for a 7 minute clip.

But at least a simple screen capturing tool would end the need for filming your replays from screen and we wouldn't see these wobbly you tube videos any more :)
 
It should be fairly easy for them to add this "FRAPS" type of capability of screen capture to the game. The export of the replay would then, of course, take as long as the replay itself. But it shouldn't take any longer than that, provided PD doesn't decide to increase the resolution/quality in the way they do for photo travel. If they do then I can see how exporting the replay could take many hours even for a 7 minute clip.

But at least a simple screen capturing tool would end the need for filming your replays from screen and we wouldn't see these wobbly you tube videos any more :)

Considering the amount of strain something like FRAPS can put on a computer that's quite near its limits with processing the game, I don't thing adding something like this to GT5 would work out too well...
 
Does nobody recall the X-Port? A bit fiddly to mess about swapping disks and all that but it served us all very well with the PS2 for replay verification for our off-line version of on-line racing :D.

It's not an unreasonable request to make replays exportable and it's yet another of those "Oh! You can't ... ?" moments for GT5.

I expected some whiz-bang advances buying this new console just to play one racing game and I am underwhelmed in too many ways presently.

Fingers crossed for very good DLC and patches to bring the game up to where it should be.
 
You can share replay data at the moment i believe.
Save the replay out, then copy it to a USB drive zip it up and email it to a friend.
 
Ah, that is good. Mind you, just to show that there is always something to be unhappy about, with the DS3 in one port and my wheel in the other there appears to be a USB shortage :D.
 
No one said it had to be hi-res. Sure, it takes ages to render in 1080, but a Youtube jobbie can be as little as 320x240, and certainly 640x480 would be acceptable. I see no reason why the PS3 couldn't render the replay in low res and convert to a video in a reasonable timeframe.

Even with the replay data we have now, it's unnecessarily complex. Why can I not just message a replay to one of my friends in-game? Why all the hassle with flash drives and email?
 
Forza 3 has no problems with that. So I don't think the reason is a technical issue

30 second clips maximum at 720p30, not even sure if it's real 720p too.
Although, that's still better than nothing, I am a bit disappointed that they haven't implemented that feature, because I was looking forward to it.

By the way, Yamauchi said it was cut because it took too long to render and there were memory issues.

Even with the replay data we have now, it's unnecessarily complex. Why can I not just message a replay to one of my friends in-game? Why all the hassle with flash drives and email?
That's not PDs fault, the PSN system just doesn't allow to send any files except pictures, so far.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again... Just Cause 2.

Give us 10 minute clips at 480p. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing and it'll look perfectly clear on YouTube. Upon loading a saved replay the game asks if we'd like to enable recording, we choose yes and it records on the fly as it plays. If Just Cause 2 can manage it during live gameplay with no slowdowns or other ill effects, I'm sure PD could scrape up something similar.
 
30 second clips maximum at 720p

30 seconds because greedy MS wants users to pay money for everything, it goes through MS servers and they are saving space.

Otherwise 30 seconds or 30 minutes won't make any difference except HDD space.

And 720p is more than enough for video, GT5 doesn't run in 1080p neither
 
Errr... no it's 30 seconds for the reason listed above. It would take forever and a day for any length of processing it.
 
No one said it had to be hi-res. Sure, it takes ages to render in 1080, but a Youtube jobbie can be as little as 320x240, and certainly 640x480 would be acceptable. I see no reason why the PS3 couldn't render the replay in low res and convert to a video in a reasonable timeframe.

Even with the replay data we have now, it's unnecessarily complex. Why can I not just message a replay to one of my friends in-game? Why all the hassle with flash drives and email?

The high-res I was talking about is only 800x600.

You guys can choose not to believe those of us who understand and know the technology all you want.

I have probably captured, rendered and converted 100's of TB's of video, 3D graphics, movies, replays clips and such likeover the last decade - using all sorts of hardware from analog high compression realtime MPG capture cards to direct digital capture - this stuff takes time and compute power.

The PS3 is just not powerful enough to render video realtime in a reasonable amount of time while handling a complex game like GT5.


Forza 3 has no problems with that. So I don't think the reason is a technical issue

Who said there si a "technical issue" - It is a practicality issues. For the duration the XBox360 is unusable. 30s takes 10 minutes on the 360 to render.

That would be 20m for 1m, or 40m for 2m or 80m for 4m. You going sit around for an hour and a half to render 5 minutes or 2 laps of LeMans?

The XBox360 is just not powerful enough to render video realtime in a reasonable amount of time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Just Cause 2.

Give us 10 minute clips at 480p. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing and it'll look perfectly clear on YouTube. Upon loading a saved replay the game asks if we'd like to enable recording, we choose yes and it records on the fly as it plays. If Just Cause 2 can manage it during live gameplay with no slowdowns or other ill effects, I'm sure PD could scrape up something similar.

I believe this is because the game itself is less taxing on the PS3 than GT4 is and it is spooling the video output to memory in a very cleverly compressed format and then writing it out to disc or the Interwebs at the end of the capture. You are correct, these guys have made optimal use of the PS3's ability to offload video handling while they process the rest of their code. Maybe PD should outsource the GT6 game engine EIDOS :lol:
 
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The XBox360 is just not powerful enough to render video realtime in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm not sure what are you talking about. Any video capture card with 1/100 of X360 power can do it in real time
 
I'm not sure what are you talking about. Any video capture card with 1/100 of X360 power can do it in real time

Capturing a screen is not equal to rendering 3D scenes.

A game engine processes then renders the 3D scene to screen - a screen capture utility simply captures the rows of pixels on screen.

Forza currently RENDERS the 3D scene as shown by the replay data out to a video file 1 frame at a time.

Now what exactly is it you dont understand?

Perhaps PD and Turn10 should work on a simpler mechanism to take the video page in memory and write it directly out to a large spool file at the same time they light up the pixels on the screen - thereby re-using the rendered frame for a video frame as well as an onscreen frame simultaneously.

Essentially producing a FRAPS that scrubs the paged display rather than the onscreen display - perhaps that is how EIDOS does it in Just Cause - the downside to that method is you need to devote CPU cycles to the cache scrubber and you limited to real-time videos - you dont get to first review your replays then only save what you want - unless they load the cache scrubber during replay plays as well....

Or better yet, they ONLY load the video cache scrubber during replays rather than during the game and you get to stream the replay to disc realtime if you want to "capture" it. This porbably needs to be designed into the game engine which is what EIDOS seem to have done.
 
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RC45, thanks for starting this thread.
I hope PD get to work on some solution for us who want to have some replay files to edit and make it available ONLINE.
 
Capturing a screen is not equal to rendering 3D scenes.

A game engine processes then renders the 3D scene to screen - a screen capture utility simply captures the rows of pixels on screen.

Forza currently RENDERS the 3D scene as shown by the replay data out to a video file 1 frame at a time.

Now what exactly is it you dont understand?

Perhaps PD and Turn10 should work on a simpler mechanism to take the video page in memory and write it directly out to a large spool file at the same time they light up the pixels on the screen - thereby re-using the rendered frame for a video frame as well as an onscreen frame simultaneously.

Essentially producing a FRAPS that scrubs the paged display rather than the onscreen display - perhaps that is how EIDOS does it in Just Cause - the downside to that method is you need to devote CPU cycles to the cache scrubber and you limited to real-time videos - you dont get to first review your replays then only save what you want - unless they load the cache scrubber during replay plays as well....

Or better yet, they ONLY load the video cache scrubber during replays rather than during the game and you get to stream the replay to disc realtime if you want to "capture" it. This porbably needs to be designed into the game engine which is what EIDOS seem to have done.

Honestly, most of us probably just *AT LEAST* want to output a replay to Youtube or better yet to storage for editing on a PC later. Essentially the equivalent of using a capture card, which is our only real option right now anyways (and damn expensive if you want to capture in HD). Capturing the replay as it played would work fantastic for that, sure I would love more options but they should at least offer us something basic. We can cut the videos as we need on our PCs if we only want X laps. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to implement this functionality into replay only through an update, in game play I understand the resource issue. They can enlist the help of the Fraps guys :lol:

Or I can leave my PS3 on overnight, it's not like my lazy system is doing anything else :crazy:.

Although, unfortunately it seems like capturing replays to youtube/storage does not seem like one of their priorities right now.
 
For the duration the XBox360 is unusable. 30s takes 10 minutes on the 360 to render.

That would be 20m for 1m, or 40m for 2m or 80m for 4m. You going sit around for an hour and a half to render 5 minutes or 2 laps of LeMans?

The XBox360 is just not powerful enough to render video realtime in a reasonable amount of time.
I don't know if your time frames are accurate or not. Not really the point. The point is having the option to do so. I don't need Kaz deciding for me if I want to waste my time doing it or not. I think I'm pretty grown enough to make the decision myself. All I want to do is do what I've been doing and create videos like the following one I made. Not the best editing job but when I get in the mood to do videos I do them and would LOVE the option to do so in GT5 without having to buy hardware.

I just want to recreate this in GT5!!!




EDIT: I just had an event filled race with the same group in the video you see in GT5 doing NASCAR. Some nice replay footage and I can't use a lick of it to make a video. Very disappointing. The video is an example of what I'd like to do in GT5. They really need to enable this feature. Something tells me it's already on the disc and all they have to do is enable it. :(
 
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i would expect the codecs kaz would use would be AVC for video and PCM or AAC or audio

AVC is used in Bluray movies(dont know if AVC supports 3D), AAC or PCM are both multichannel audio formats which are also used in the bluray format

plus with 256MB of ram, it will be hard to make a good program that can export replay data files as a HD video file
 
When I first heard about youtube uploading I figured it'd be lowres (320-480) clips and I was fine with that.

I'm pretty sure it would be just about doable on PS3 hardware using a screencap to spoolfile method like RC45 outlined above. The difference is that the rendered screens would only have to be 480 pixels across which would happen much faster than trying to downscale 1080p frames.

One possible reason they wouldn't go with this is because "perfectionist" Kaz doesn't want his baby shown off in anything less than HD quality and, if that's the case, we'll never see this feature. PS3 hardware just doesn't have the grunt.
 
720p should be good enough for all. I just want the feature sooner than later. I got a load of replays waiting to get done. I guess I could ask someone to get the footage for me but who's gonna want to do that.
 
Rendering video replays in 1080p and photo mode quality would be fantastic, no matter how long it takes.

Sure you'll feel that way in a months time, when you haven't been able to play GT at all and it's still only done a minute and a half's worth of your nurburgring lap?

ETA: okay so I did a quick calculation and I might have exaggerated a bit. Your minute and a half of nurb wouldn't really take a month. It'd probably be done in just under a week
 
Why is everyone talking about real-time rendering. All they need to do is to implement software which captures the screen frames out of the replay (like FRAPS or any other software does).
It costs a lot of power, too. But not as much as real-time-rendering and no one said we need FULL HD resolution. Forza 3 has this option, it should be possible in GT5, too.

Has anyone an idea of how long the 30sec. replays needs to be created in Forza 3?
 
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Buy a video capture card or PVR - problem solved, and it's much faster and you can capture in real time
 
If PSP can export video replays in the game FF:Dissidia that can be seen in the video section of PSP why shouldn't PS3 be able to export GT5 replays on some format?
I know it's a complete diferent sistem but it is also much more powerfull sistem it could be done easy and it would be great adiction to the game.
 
OK i have a small question that was sitting in my head from the second i knew that GT5 will be 3D compatible long before the game was released :
IF THE GAME AND THE SYSTEM CAN SUPPORT 3D (which means rendering the same scene twice from 2 different cameras and still display the motion in real time) THEN SURELY IT CAN SUPPORT A SIMPLE PROGRAM THAT CAN CAPTURE THE A FRAME THAT WAS RENDERED ONCE FOR A (Non-3D) REPLAY AS IT WAS OUTPUTTED TO THE SCREEN AND SAVE THEM TO A VIDEO FILE LIKE FRAPS DOES !!!
Im pretty sure that rendering then saving the frame in a file while outputting it to the screen takes less time than rendering it twice with two different cameras as 3D compatibily requires ....
ITS NOT A HARDWARE PROBLEM NOR A TIME PROBLEM in my opinion ;)

EDIT : THE REASON IS that this feature will definitely decrease the sales on SONY's PVRs and capture cards ... that's why PD DID NOT IMPLEMENT THE FEATURE ... AS SIMPLE AS THAT :D
 
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OK i have a small question that was sitting in my head from the second i knew that GT5 will be 3D compatible long before the game was released :
IF THE GAME AND THE SYSTEM CAN SUPPORT 3D (which means rendering the same scene twice from 2 different cameras and still display the motion in real time) THEN SURELY IT CAN SUPPORT A SIMPLE PROGRAM THAT CAN CAPTURE THE A FRAME THAT WAS RENDERED ONCE FOR A (Non-3D) REPLAY AS IT WAS OUTPUTTED TO THE SCREEN AND SAVE THEM TO A VIDEO FILE LIKE FRAPS DOES !!!
Im pretty sure that rendering then saving the frame in a file while outputting it to the screen takes less time than rendering it twice with two different cameras as 3D compatibily requires ....
ITS NOT A HARDWARE PROBLEM NOR A TIME PROBLEM in my opinion ;)

EDIT : THE REASON IS that this feature will definitely decrease the sales on SONY's PVRs and capture cards ... that's why PD DID NOT IMPLEMENT THE FEATURE ... AS SIMPLE AS THAT :D

Your´re right, I think. It should be possible and it shouldn´t be a big deal. The problem is, that the developers do not finish thinking. I mean, it is embarrassing enough not to think about rewind-reatures or slow-motion in replays, like every other simple racing game has. Kaz and PD are fetishist for great looking replays and phot mode or whatever but don´t think about such simple things.
 
The time consuming and memory/cpu hungry part of outputting to video isn't saving an image to disk, it's encoding that image into a "stream" which is done by taking a bunch of images and merging them together via an encoding algorithm. It's not as simple as saving a whole bunch of screenshots.
 
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