Repetition and luck -vs- skill

[Resident Troll]

I am seeing over and over in many posts about the "skill" involved in the pre-patch License Tests. If it is truly skill and not repetition and luck then all the "skilled" players should be able to repeat the gold winning run, over and over without fail. Personally I know many of the events and tests I have golded I couldn't do it again without again grinding and getting lucky. So is Repetition and luck skill or an illusion of skill?

 

[dabest2500]

I've repeated many Licenses just for the fun of it.
Repetition till you get Gold DEVELOPS skill when you race.
For example, the AMG Driving Academy helped me learn the Nurburgring MASSIVELY, I use to hate that track, now I love it and can push at about 90% and not make a mistake.

 

[Luminis]

Flipping a coin until you get heads five times in a row. That's repetition and luck.
For the licenses, you're mostly learning your lines and the car's limits. That's skill right there.

There's always a bit of luck involved (as it is in basically everything, if you will), but put a total moron behind the wheel and they'll never gold a license.

 

[freedomweasel]

I've repeated many Licenses just for the fun of it.
Repetition till you get Gold DEVELOPS skill when you race.
For example, the AMG Driving Academy helped me learn the Nurburgring MASSIVELY, I use to hate that track, now I love it and can push at about 90% and not make a mistake.

Pretty much that. You gain skill as you practice (repetition) so you should, theoretically, be able to get gold every time eventually.

Some of the challenges and events are more about learning the timing and patterns of the AI cars than driving skill though.

edit: perhaps you did get lucky and shave off a tenth of a second that one time to get gold, but others are that same tenth of a second faster *every time*. They aren't consistently "luckier" than you, they're just better.

 

[Luminis]

Oh, there's a saying amongst Magic: The Gathering players, by the way.
'The more skill you have, the less you'll have to rely on luck.'

 

[dabest2500]

Some of the challenges and events are more about learning the timing and patterns of the AI cars than driving skill though.

Like IC-10 for example, I hated that.
The AI crashed INTO me for example and I get disqualified
Another example was when I did IB-10 I think at Grand Valley, the AI was about to spin and did a big powerslide after a massive elevation change, it hit into me and I got disqualified.
I won by holding back.
GT4 were the real Licenses 👍

 

[Tornado]

Depends on the licence. The majority of them were heavily skill-based. Including a number of the ones with AI drivers in them. However, some of the AI races (IC-10, for example) basically required you to hope that you wouldn't get slammed into by the AI.

 

[Resident Troll]

I have to agree, doing the license tests over and over or the specials will develop ones driving skill and will teach you how to negotiate certain parts of certain tracks. But with the way the AI is and some other things like comfort hard tires it does really feel like luck to me. I know I learned allot doing the tests and because the AI was so bad I had to do them over and over causing me to get better. I just know I can not just jump in anytime and start banging off gold level runs. It would probably still take me quite some time to do it again which leads me to lean toward the luck side.

 

[dabest2500]

I just know I can not just jump in anytime and start banging off gold level runs. It would probably still take me quite some time to do it again which leads me to lean toward the luck side.

That's because you haven't done the Licenses for a while.
You'll have to redevelop those skills again.
When something hasn't been used, your brain cuts it off.

 

[Destinkeys]

The luck or skill came from picking the ONE line where the AI wouldn't slam into you because they had no awareness of your existence, rather than the choice of several that, if the AI weren't so frikkin' dumb in the first place, they would have been able to avoid you.

If as much attention was paid by PD for having the game determine who's fault a collision is (or making the AI aware of everything around them) to the modeling of a headlamp no-one will ever see except in photo mode, none of this would be necessary.

But hey! As long as it LOOKS good, who needs it to actually have anything to do with RACING?!

GT5... The Ultimate Photography Simulator

 

[Resident Troll]

That's because you haven't done the Licenses for a while.
You'll have to redevelop those skills again.
When something hasn't been used, your brain cuts it off.

I honestly do not believe someone can jump in and start Golding an event or test and keep doing it. Even once every 5 races. But just because I can not doesn't mean others can not.

 

[freedomweasel]

It would probably still take me quite some time to do it again which leads me to lean toward the luck side.

Let me put it this way:

Say the target time for the license is 20.000 seconds. You consistently get around 22 seconds. You run the event ten times, and get 22 seconds every time. You then get lucky on the eleventh run and nail the line perfectly to get 20 seconds.
Compare that to someone running consistently at 20.1 seconds, or 19.000 seconds every single run. Are these people just always luckier than you or are they simply a better driver?

I honestly do not believe someone can jump in and start Golding an event or test and keep doing it. Even once every 5 races. But just because I can not doesn't mean others can not.

Not every time maybe, but it's the consistency that shows it's skill not luck. Look at Formula 1 for example. The drivers don't always nail the fastest lap time but the good drivers are going to be a tenth or so off their fast pace every lap.

The more skill you have the less luck you need.

 

[Resident Troll]

Let me put it this way:

Say the target time for the license is 20.000 seconds. You consistently get around 22 seconds. You run the event ten times, and get 22 seconds every time. You then get lucky on the eleventh run and nail the line perfectly to get 20 seconds.
Compare that to someone running consistently at 20.1 seconds, or 19.000 seconds every single run. Are these people just always luckier than you or are they simply a better driver?

That's my question. Are there people that can consistently gold all the events and tests? I feel I got lucky.

 

[dabest2500]

I honestly do not believe someone can jump in and start Golding an event or test and keep doing it. Even once every 5 races. But just because I can not doesn't mean others can not.

I was simply explaining the reason why you can't just jump in and start Golding them again really quickly

 

[freedomweasel]

That's my question. Are there people that can consistently gold all the events and tests? I feel I got lucky.

I'm sure someone can, or could if they wanted to practice. I can consistently silver all the ones I have silver for, and the ones I have gold for I think I could gold more than 50% of the time. I'm definitely not great at the game though.

 

[will4noobs]

pre-patch?

what happened, did they get easier?

 

[mangobob]

pre-patch?

what happened, did they get easier?

Yep, big time...you can touch cars now without disqualification.

I also think more tests have SRF locked on.

Still, at least i'll get closer to 60 gold now, didn't have the patience for it before.

 

[Destinkeys]

didn't have the patience for it before.

Maybe thread should have been 'Patience vs luck or skill'

Hey, maybe be patient long enough, and PD will reward everybody with all the cars and trophies and tracks, just for putting the disc in the slot. Seems they are heading that way..!

 

[Jose']

Maybe thread should have been 'Patience vs luck or skill'

Hey, maybe be patient long enough, and PD will reward everybody with all the cars and trophies and tracks, just for putting the disc in the slot. Seems they are heading that way..!

👍

 

[mangobob]

TBH, if the licences unlocked more events, I'd have plenty of patience for them...but with no real reward for doing them, they've become a side show.

 

[Resident Troll]

Maybe thread should have been 'Patience vs luck or skill'

Hey, maybe be patient long enough, and PD will reward everybody with all the cars and trophies and tracks, just for putting the disc in the slot. Seems they are heading that way..!

Must be a sad day for you, you can no longer brag how awesome you are for single handily taking down the massive task of Golding events in GT5 And bringing peace to the world. You know, it is that important. If I stumble upon anyone that cares I'll let them know you are in the corner crying.

 

[dark_ruffo]

It is not that I just want to brag about, but since you are asking for answers, I can, as many other players can, gold any event/license test without a sweat. This doesn't mean I gold on the first try, sometimes you have to adjust to a car's handling before attempting at going fast, like getting to try if a car grip would be enough to take a corner in 4th gear or will it just spin helplessly and you'll need to take the next attempt at 3rd gear or so, like Vettel's challenge.

Some of other events require some trial and error, like the 3rd brake test on the licenses, you just can't find the perfect gold braking spot on the first try without screwing it twice or more times before you start to see where is the best place to brake. Unless you get lucky.

Then there are other events where you are required to learn AI patterns or a new track memorization, you just can't be fast on a track if you don't know where you are going. Like the Loeb events, where the three tracks required to pass those tests are absolutely new to the series, you would need a 6th sense to gold it on the first try. But once you learn the basics of the tracks, golds come easy.

After going through the required "training/learning/memorization/trial and error" I can go back to any event and after some warm up, gold the event time and time again. And I am far from being one of the best players. Takes average skill to gold an event on GT.

 

[Resident Troll]

It is not that I just want to brag about, but since you are asking for answers, I can, as many other players can, gold any event/license test without a sweat. This doesn't mean I gold on the first try, sometimes you have to adjust to a car's handling before attempting at going fast, like getting to try if a car grip would be enough to take a corner in 4th gear or will it just spin helplessly and you'll need to take the next attempt at 3rd gear or so, like Vettel's challenge.

Some of other events require some trial and error, like the 3rd brake test on the licenses, you just can't find the perfect gold braking spot on the first try without screwing it twice or more times before you start to see where is the best place to brake. Unless you get lucky.

Then there are other events where you are required to learn AI patterns or a new track memorization, you just can't be fast on a track if you don't know where you are going. Like the Loeb events, where the three tracks required to pass those tests are absolutely new to the series, you would need a 6th sense to gold it on the first try. But once you learn the basics of the tracks, golds come easy.

After going through the required "training/learning/memorization/trial and error" I can go back to any event and after some warm up, gold the event time and time again. And I am far from being one of the best players. Takes average skill to gold an event on GT.

I have allot of work ahead of me. For most of the events, I can as well but there are a handful I can not even come close, silver only. Twomthat come to mind is the 3rd test in the 3rd liscense, hairpin turns with the 350Z. I literally got within .001 of gold but it was shear luck. The other is the Lotus challenge on the Top Gear test track.

 

[MowTin]

When trying to gold a license you'll notice your times getting closer and closer to your target time. Sometimes you'll land a thousandths of a second from your goal repeated times.

Basically your times will vary randomly (luck) around an average that is getting closer to your goal (skill).

Most people just stop trying once they get gold but if they kept practicing they would eventually be able to gold most of the time.

 

[Resident Troll]

When trying to gold a license you'll notice your times getting closer and closer to your target time. Sometimes you'll land a thousandths of a second from your goal repeated times.

Basically your times will vary randomly (luck) around an average that is getting closer to your goal (skill).

Most people just stop trying once they get gold but if they kept practicing they would eventually be able to gold most of the time.

That made the most sense. Good example

 

[F1Addict]

It is not that I just want to brag about, but since you are asking for answers, I can, as many other players can, gold any event/license test without a sweat. This doesn't mean I gold on the first try, sometimes you have to adjust to a car's handling before attempting at going fast, like getting to try if a car grip would be enough to take a corner in 4th gear or will it just spin helplessly and you'll need to take the next attempt at 3rd gear or so, like Vettel's challenge.

Some of other events require some trial and error, like the 3rd brake test on the licenses, you just can't find the perfect gold braking spot on the first try without screwing it twice or more times before you start to see where is the best place to brake. Unless you get lucky.

Then there are other events where you are required to learn AI patterns or a new track memorization, you just can't be fast on a track if you don't know where you are going. Like the Loeb events, where the three tracks required to pass those tests are absolutely new to the series, you would need a 6th sense to gold it on the first try. But once you learn the basics of the tracks, golds come easy.

After going through the required "training/learning/memorization/trial and error" I can go back to any event and after some warm up, gold the event time and time again. And I am far from being one of the best players. Takes average skill to gold an event on GT.

Completely agree. Something that also needs to be considered in the licence tests is that the cars are different and suit different people's driving styles, so some people may take longer to get gold on some tests than others.
Give me a licence test with the F10 and I'll get gold within a few tries and could repeat it many times. Give me a licence test, say in the Alfa 8C, and it'll take me much longer to get a gold time.

 

[Illopp00]

Consistency is an indication of a high level of skill.

 

[HuskyGT]

I don´t think that license test are hard to gold. Ussually it takes around 5 - 10 tries after silvering them. And its not about luck, since you can feel what you did wrong, and based on the ghost, you can improve every time you try. Once you do it right, you can even see that there is still a little bit of spare time. So no. Its not about luck, like NFS games, were you know you´re doing 110% well and still you fail a mission because of bad luck, or race.

BTW, I don´t know if its because of the driving physics, or PD got soft with the times for gold, but I feel GT5 the easiest GT to gold licenses so far.

 

[Destinkeys]

Must be a sad day for you, you can no longer brag how awesome you are for single handily taking down the massive task of Golding events in GT5 And bringing peace to the world. You know, it is that important. If I stumble upon anyone that cares I'll let them know you are in the corner crying.

If this weren't so insulting, it would be laughable. I have nowhere NEAR all Golds on my Tests. I simply don't want to play a game that makes it so easy, I CAN....

You, on the other hand, appear to like that idea.

The whole POINT is, what worth does a game have that you can complete so easily? And, what worth does a game have that lowers the bar so often?

If I can't checkmate you in ten moves, the rules of chess should be changed so I can? If the goalie keeps stopping my goal attempts, move him up 10 yards? If I can't get a hole in one, put the hole at the center of a huge cone?

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Hm, I don`t know. Im one of those guys who have 10% gold, 30 % silver and 60% bronce.
It seems like that im a poor driver, right? Ok, actually Im one, but in most online races I attended right now, I was one of the few who were driving clean and fair, also being able to race more then 10 laps without making a mistake and producing consistent lap times or making a soft race tire survive more then 10 laps in a group c car around suzuka. And usually I`m one of the fastest. This says alot about the skill level of the majority of GT5 players, which must be very low. Ok, I might add one thing, I don`t bothered with the license tests, I`ve beat them all at the first try and never tried it again since then.
So I think the license tests say alot about your driving skills, as long as you`re trying to beat them fair without crashing or corner cutting.

Edit:
Do you guys remember the M3 at Eiger Nordwand event in GT5P? I never managed to gold that event with pro physics. I have huge respect for everyone who managed to do this.