Revert 2.10 patch PP changes

[Johnnypenso]

Are the cars overall more balanced? Because the PP system before wasn't very good at balancing out cars.

On RS tires, no, they are more unbalanced forever, different cars on top and the gap is much wider.

Yes I understand the requirments for entering a race but what I am referring to is how the PP, weight and power all relate to each other. If you set the power and weight limit of a room, the PP becomes redundant. The PP is there to replace the power/weight setting of a room **well, as best as it can** but by this logic, you can be a smartarse and set the PP to 200 but make the weight low and power high. Who is to say otherwise?

I'm not sure I get your point at all sorry. If you're a smartarse with any room settings, no one will show up so what's the point of that example?

The point is, by being able to set PP, Weight and HP at the same time it'll allow Hosts to set (pulling figures out of the air here) a PP limit of 500 for example where in the past the typical hot cars were maybe 350-400 hp and then set an HP limit of 425 so that the new higher powered by poorer handling FR's can now compete equally with the cars that used to dominate at 500PP. Somewhere there is a balance between PP and HP where a large number of cars can compete fairly evenly, even on RS tires, and given enough time, GT5er's will find that happy balance if it's important to them.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

^^ How on earth could you set PP, weight and power simultaneously?
So for example you set PP to 500 but want weight set at 1500kg and power at 300hp. Honestly, why bother with a PP setting if you are going to set weight/power anyway?Mathematically it wouldn't add up (too many conflicting variables) but hey what do I know?
Maybe you guys have a job waiting for you at Polyphony for advanced maths calcualations on integrals and differentials? Sorry to be a bit of a troll but I hate it when people think they know better that a software company. Hey, I'm a hippicrit for posting this.

In a 425pp race most non-FR cars have around 200 HP or so. The 190e Evo II now has over 360 HP at 425 PP.
I can see limiting PP to 425 and HP to say 225 - then you could still drive the Evo but it would be limited to 225 HP and have considerably less PP.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Are the cars overall more balanced? Because the PP system before wasn't very good at balancing out cars.

No, they are way less balanced. A Speed 12 at 550 on 24h Nürburgring is now 10+ sec quicker than your CSL ever was.

But that isn't even the real problem. It's speed differences. These things are dog slow in corners but much much faster on the straights. It's like a full aero racecar feels vs a roadcar of the same PP: Each corner the roadcar gets in the way but you can't pass it on the straights. Usually these situations end with an attempt of an impossible pass - going dirty. That's why you don't mix racecars and roadcars, they don't fit. Now with many FR cars it's just the same. Only you cannot easily say "no racecars/roadcars. 3..2..1...kick" in this case.

 

[rosckolove]

Damn that sucks. At least we still have the HP weight restrictions. I prefer that anyway now a days.

 

[Cyber_stig_77]

Yes I understand the requirments for entering a race but what I am referring to is how the PP, weight and power all relate to each other. If you set the power and weight limit of a room, the PP becomes redundant. The PP is there to replace the power/weight setting of a room **well, as best as it can** but by this logic, you can be a smartarse and set the PP to 200 but make the weight low and power high. Who is to say otherwise?

PP won't be redundant because downforce isn't limited by the other restrictions, it would allow you to run a heavier car or a car with less power but make up for it with downforce, pretty simple really

 

[Snaeper]

It's a shame the PP system is so bonked.

Awhile ago I was testing and putting together a 500PP racing series and found that most cars were only about 2 seconds apart at max, many of them tuned and not tuned, all of them racing cars with front/rear aero adjusted the same, etc. Now a small majority of those cars have gotten as much as 40PP lopped off... requiring less weight and more power to get back to 500PP... when they were already some of the fastest cars under the old PP limits. I can only imagine that they've gotten even faster now.

And on the topic of PP and HP/Weight limits, I've always wanted them to be able to cross regulate. Take for example a car class of rally cars. The majority of Group A and WRC rally cars weigh in at 1230kg, so what if I wanted to include the handful of rally cars and rally-style cars (Subaru RM) and have them fit the specs? Well I'd first regulate all to 500pp and then the weight to 1230kg, to make sure they don't lower their PP using another method while to maintain their weight advantage. Super GT GT300 cars were another example. I wanted them to all have just under 300hp while also being 500pp... but that was impossible to regulate.

And HP/Weight races are incredibly fun, I remember doing them early on and the races were very close, even with a mix of street and race cars.

 

[wiithepeople]

The Garaiya feels especially better as a drivers and drifters car, and the regular Stratos feels easier to control.

 

[rosckolove]

And HP/Weight races are incredibly fun, I remember doing them early on and the races were very close, even with a mix of street and race cars.

Impossible. Unless the guys in the race cars were stopping to take a tinkle every few laps.

 

[7Sins]

The point is, by being able to set PP, Weight and HP at the same time it'll allow Hosts to set (pulling figures out of the air here) a PP limit of 500 for example where in the past the typical hot cars were maybe 350-400 hp and then set an HP limit of 425 so that the new higher powered by poorer handling FR's can now compete equally with the cars that used to dominate at 500PP. Somewhere there is a balance between PP and HP where a large number of cars can compete fairly evenly, even on RS tires, and given enough time, GT5er's will find that happy balance if it's important to them.

Ok, that makes sense. Sorry, I was fixated on the PP being the "be all end all" of a room setup. BANG, I just clicked. Using your example I was going to say, if the HP was increased to 425, wouldn't the hot cars just increase their HP....but their PP would then increase thus restricting them......faaarrrkk massive der on me.

 

[MrGrado]

There is only a big gap between the top cars and other cars now because there are people using cars that can't compete now. If someone were to use a slow car before 2.10 they would be comprehensively beaten, same as now. It's rather irrelevant if your 10 seconds behind the leader or 15 seconds.

You can drive a slow car and compete against other drivers with slow cars. What's the fascination with winning all the time?

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

Actually, all I ask is that PP and weight minimum may be set together. Power limit isn't so important, but it would be nice to have the option. Above all, there needs to be a simple way of accounting for natural grip, downforce, torque, aerodynamics, etc. Power and weight alone cannot do this. I believe the only reason they haven't given us the ability to set PP/power/weight together is simply because it didn't occur to them. They thought PP alone would suffice (and true, in many cases it does).

With my old club, I introduced the idea of a PP and weight limit (trusting each other to obey the weight reg), and what happened was the racing was transformed. Some of the closest ever. Granted, there we still the baddie cars dominating, but not by as great a margin. The old PP system wasn't perfect by any means, but it was near-as-damnit.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In a 425pp race most non-FR cars have around 200 HP or so. The 190e Evo II now has over 360 HP at 425 PP.
I can see limiting PP to 425 and HP to say 225 - then you could still drive the Evo but it would be limited to 225 HP and have considerably less PP.

You got it. Given the tools, Hosts will figure out how to balance these things out. Right now they dont' have the tools so they have to do it manually as in, "that car is banned, find another car..etc" .

No, they are way less balanced. A Speed 12 at 550 on 24h Nürburgring is now 10+ sec quicker than your CSL ever was.

But that isn't even the real problem. It's speed differences. These things are dog slow in corners but much much faster on the straights. It's like a full aero racecar feels vs a roadcar of the same PP: Each corner the roadcar gets in the way but you can't pass it on the straights. Usually these situations end with an attempt of an impossible pass - going dirty. That's why you don't mix racecars and roadcars, they don't fit. Now with many FR cars it's just the same. Only you cannot easily say "no racecars/roadcars. 3..2..1...kick" in this case.

And that does not make for good racing, which is why I think the PP system and the whole racing system in general needs an update. I believe the system would be better served if the cars were grouped and PP rated within the group, as opposed to trying to equalize every car. Equal to the finish line does not equate to equal on the track and as someone who organizes a league with equal lap times but unequal PP, I know how difficult it can be to race against cars that are on a different pace.

So for example, I think there should be a category maybe called "Supercars". Your Ferraris, Lambos, BMW GT-R's, GT-R's, Spkyer, NSX's etc. say 50-75 cars. Take those cars which are all similar in HP/PP/Weight/Handling and make them work together. You would know if you restricted your room to just those cars with the tick of a box, they all had the potential given a good driver and good tune to race closely together. As host you could still race with open entry, but if you choose to restrict in this way you can.

 

[Z1-AV69]

And that does not make for good racing, which is why I think the PP system and the whole racing system in general needs an update. I believe the system would be better served if the cars were grouped and PP rated within the group, as opposed to trying to equalize every car. Equal to the finish line does not equate to equal on the track and as someone who organizes a league with equal lap times but unequal PP, I know how difficult it can be to race against cars that are on a different pace.

So for example, I think there should be a category maybe called "Supercars". Your Ferraris, Lambos, BMW GT-R's, GT-R's, Spkyer, NSX's etc. say 50-75 cars. Take those cars which are all similar in HP/PP/Weight/Handling and make them work together. You would know if you restricted your room to just those cars with the tick of a box, they all had the potential given a good driver and good tune to race closely together. As host you could still race with open entry, but if you choose to restrict in this way you can.

I'd surely welcome something like that. The more tools the better.

But for the game my friends and I like to play, it's not even necessary to have a very good laptime balance, while the speed differences matter a lot. In such open lobbies the differences in player skill are often far greater than the cars differences. Therefor it would actually be boring if the cars would do all the same laptimes. The fun in such rooms is to choose a car that makes you fit into the room. If the other players are "slow", choose a slow car. If the others are too quick, choose your quickest car. A good open lobby needs lots of different winners. Half the room should at least believe they could win the next race with some luck.
Of course you can't achieve this only with room settings, it needs some social conventions. But once you know a few people online, this can work.

What I want to say: I like some differences in what the available cars can do, it makes it more interesting. It's a nice challenge to win in slower cars too. Of course the differences shouldn't be too big. Up until 2.10 it was mostly ok. What matters though is clean racing and this is much more difficult with high speed differences.

Btw: Lovin your guide to open lobbies, so true @Johnnypenso

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'd surely welcome something like that. The more tools the better.

But for the game my friends and I like to play, it's not even necessary to have a very good laptime balance, while the speed differences matter a lot. In such open lobbies the differences in player skill are often far greater than the cars differences. Therefor it would actually be boring if the cars would do all the same laptimes. The fun in such rooms is to choose a car that makes you fit into the room. If the other players are "slow", choose a slow car. If the others are too quick, choose your quickest car. A good open lobby needs lots of different winners. Half the room should at least believe they could win the next race with some luck.
Of course you can't achieve this only with room settings, it needs some social conventions. But once you know a few people online, this can work.

What I want to say: I like some differences in what the available cars can do, it makes it more interesting. It's a nice challenge to win in slower cars too. Of course the differences shouldn't be too big. Up until 2.10 it was mostly ok. What matters though is clean racing and this is much more difficult with high speed differences.

Btw: Lovin your guide to open lobbies, so true @Johnnypenso

LOL...yeah I love that guide too...thanks..lol. All cars wouldn't be near equal in a category other than in the hands of a very skilled driver. And you'd still, as a better driver, have the option to detune your car below the specs or choose lesser tires, or in a completely open room, choose any car you'd like. But for those guys that want to race near a fixed PP level, having 50-75 cars that are roughly equal would be a great option. You would know for sure it isn't like the car but your driving skill that is holding you back.

 

[Z1-AV69]

LOL...yeah I love that guide too...thanks..lol. All cars wouldn't be near equal in a category other than in the hands of a very skilled driver. And you'd still, as a better driver, have the option to detune your car below the specs or choose lesser tires, or in a completely open room, choose any car you'd like. But for those guys that want to race near a fixed PP level, having 50-75 cars that are roughly equal would be a great option. You would know for sure it isn't like the car but your driving skill that is holding you back.

Yes that option would exist. But surely they others knowing your car is way slower matters too...

I didn't bring the point up only to argue against your proposal (which I like), my point is a perfect balance at a given PP isn't the most important thing and PD would go for the wrong priorities if they tried while sacrificing more important things.