Round 17: VLN 4

Discussion in 'GTP Sportscar Series Archive' started by AJ, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. gtpcaine

    gtpcaine

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    Oh definitely, like has been said many many times before, the ring is dangerous in the dry, let alone in the wet. I think every driver out there done a remarkable job today and should be proud of themselves. There was some great racing throughout the pack. I feel a little sorry for the TCN class, the fight in GT3 was so tight they didn't get as much coverage.

    EDIT

    It certainly bodes well for a great N24 next weekend!

    EDIT 2

    GTP:ES Racing Drivers Association anyone? :lol:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  2. skyline1683

    skyline1683

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    Even I have to admit even thou I never saw da bomb pass me (invisble cars could be to blame)
    On the stream il admit it looks like we are a lap down .
    But in aj defence my stint photos were in 2 minutes after I handed over to pasm so it could of made it look like we were leading .
    All I can say is let aj count the laps and do his thing and the right result will come out in the next few days.
     
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  3. Pedroeol

    Pedroeol

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    Man it was an amazing start, the first laps with 4 GT3 cars all lined up was just a sight to be seen :)

    On a side note, the Type V is bugged and there's no smoke coming out of the tyres as well as spray when it's raining, it would definitely make our job even harder when following a fellow driver.
     
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  4. Whitetail

    Whitetail Premium

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    Good thing the N24 will be on the full 24h layout. :)
     
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  5. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

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    AJ are you able to clarify which order it was that you chose to line the cars up after recreation of lobby RED flag as stated:

    7.4.h Cars will be lined up in either the order they; stopped on the Grid for the RED Flag, or were classified at the last Timing & Scoring update.
     
  6. AJ

    AJ Premium

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    - The order they stopped behind the Red Flag.

    - Cars conducting a DC were then moved to the back, effectively as they would if they conducted a Pit Stop/DC under an SC.
     
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  7. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

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    Then I think, what has caused some confusion is that behind the SC (I'm watching from the stream) I can't see neither the WRS or Avalerion Audi - as we already know visibility issues - if that is the case then I would assume cars were then assembled correctly from information that was gathered from somewhere else maybe stint photos. Where things have gone wrong, is that the Avalerion was not on the lead lap behind the safety car and that this was the car showed the chequered flag. So on the restart it was either WRS Audi (I've not been able to ascertain whether they were on the lead lap) or the RoR SLS that were leading GT3 - Avalerion were racing to unlap themselves of this I'm 99% sure without reviewing stint laps. But the tally that Ive built for myself on watching the stream shows this clear as day and I'm sure everything will be cleared up once results are published.

    :tup:
     
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  8. NingDynasty

    NingDynasty

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    I also agree with the delaying of Driver Changes until AFTER the race has resumed green flag conditions. A couple hundred feet of track position vs 1 to 1.5 minutes is a big advantage that teams gain through no strategy of their own.
     
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  9. AJ

    AJ Premium

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    This.

    In that case we would then get many teams changing driver at the exact same time (in this example 7), which would melt the lobby again, and we would need another red flag to create another room...
     
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  10. NingDynasty

    NingDynasty

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    Then use a stop and hold to compensate. Solves both issues. 1 Minutes 30 Seconds should suffice.
     
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  11. Whitetail

    Whitetail Premium

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    What I am concerned about is if both of the Audis were a lap down, then when the driver changes were performed I reckon at least the #32 should've been able to get a lap back if was under green flag conditions. When the cars lined up for the restart both Audis were ahead of the overall reader in terms of track positions and after talking with @Peelster1 about it, should have gotten some sort of wave by/catch up (real or simulated) but did not as it was assumed we were the leaders.

    I may be wrong, but if that is the case, we were duped out of a whole lap and effectively were out of contention when we shouldn't have been. Hopefully when the stint photos are added up we will see where the error was made and who was hurt by it. I trust we won't see these issues in the N24, I hope.
     
  12. StigsTC

    StigsTC

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    Its an interesting theory Ning, but whether or not a team gains an advantage by swapping under red is entirely situational.
    In this case a team that completed a driver change and stayed on the lead lap before the SC and red gained an advantage by catching the distance up and moving up the queue, even when it was possible they were greater than 90 seconds behind. It would be quite unfair to nullify a team's lead and then hand them a penalty on top of it.
    This obviously isn't always the case, however timing of the SC and red flags will alter races for one team or another regardless of rules. At the end of the day driver swaps under red are at AJ's discretion (as per regulations), and we have to trust his judgement on when he thinks it is or is not appropriate to allow teams to try and take those swaps.
    At the Nordschliefe, a 'free' red flag swap is not nearly as free as it seems, as you can stand to lose more track position than you may in a green driver swap.
     
  13. orks95

    orks95

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    We still do not understand why we were placed in front of the leader of our class (TCN-1) and we have not changed driver. What makes that restart we had a lap down. (In misunderstanding waiting to learn more)

    I would like to comment in relation to the return to the track when you crashed, please be careful with the vehicle happens behind you and do not go on the track as if you were alone. Thank you
     
  14. gtpcaine

    gtpcaine

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    This is my understanding of the situation, which is the same as what I thought while driving without the data I have seen now to back it up.

    Both audi's were a lap down at the time of the Red flag, the track position order behind the SC was:

    TNR (1st)
    GHH (2nd)
    AVA (4th +1 lap)
    WRS (5th +1 lap)
    ROR (3rd)

    So when TNR and GHH carried out their driver change, they should have been moved to the back of the pack:

    AVA (4th + 8'00)
    WRS (5th + 8'00)
    ROR (1st)
    TNR (2nd)
    GHH (3rd)

    Now this order would put AVA and WRS back onto the lead lap, albeit 8 minutes behind ROR and about to be lapped.

    Question is, once TNR and GHH made driver changes, ROR became the leader, and thus putting AVA and WRS on the lead lap, so should the order then have been

    ROR (1st)
    AVA (2nd)
    WRS (3rd)
    TNR (4th)
    GHH (5th)

    Either way you look at it, we should have been the leader at the restart, but all 4 teams in question started ahead of us.

    I can understand your point, but looking at it from the other side of the fence, had there not been a red flag, you would have remained a lap down and would have effectively been out of contention anyway.

    Extending that point some more, if we 'pretend' that there wasn't a red flag, and it was just continuous green -- AVA and WRS would have unlapped themselves when TNR and GHH made their DC's. TNR and GHH would have remained ahead of us. That would mean the on track order would have been AVA, WRS, TNR, GHH and ROR (which is exactly what we had at the restart). AVA and WRS would still be on the lead lap, but 7 minutes or so behind TNR and potentially about to be lapped.

    After the restart, AVA kept ahead of TNR, WRS fell back and were lapped by TNR, GHH fell back behind ROR.

    So in my opinion the finishing order should be:

    TNR
    ROR
    GHH
    AVA
    WRS (+1 lap)

    I feel this is a fair representation of how the race went in general, and is the fairest way of deciding the outcome.

    Just for the record, here are the changes which the red flag caused:

    AVA: gained a lap and 3 positions (4th to 1st)
    WRS: gained a lap and 3 positions (5th to 2nd)
    TNR: lost 2 positions (1st to 3rd)
    GHH: lost 2 positions (2nd to 4th)
    ROR: lost 2 positions (3rd to 5th)

    Then when you look at what the running order should have been for the restart:

    ROR: lost 4 positions (1st to 5th)
    TNR: lost 1 position (2nd to 3rd)
    GHH: lost 1 position (3rd to 4th)
    AVA: gained a lap and 3 positions (4th to 1st)
    WRS: gained a lap and 3 positions (5th to 2nd)

    The positions lost by TNR, GHH and ROR were due to an administrative error, nothing the drivers or teams done, the lap originally lost by AVA and WRS were down to driver error. It makes more sense to give the benefit of the doubt to the lead 3 teams.

    Whatever way you look at it, a mistake was made, and its nothing any of the teams could have done anything about. We can argue about it all day and night and probably never agree, but It's upto AJ to decide what way he wants to play this.

    EDIT

    So lets end this here, and await an official apology and the results.
     
  15. Whitetail

    Whitetail Premium

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    But there was, and everyone gained (or was supposed to gain) time on track to catch up to the overall leader anyway, that's the nature of race neutralization. But how I see it, because we were trapped behind the SC and did not get that lap at the restart relative to the overall leader, the Audis ended up losing time while everyone else gained.

    Either way like you said, an error was made on part of the event organizers and all we can really do at this stage is figure out where it was made, who benefited, and who was disadvantaged when they shouldn't have. The only good thing that can come out of it at this stage is knowing what the error was and preventing the same mistake from occurring at future events.
     
  16. TeamEdge702

    TeamEdge702

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    Did WRS go a lap down?
     
  17. gtpcaine

    gtpcaine

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    Just spent the past 2 hours trying to work that out from the stream, and I made a mistake in my calculations. Apologies to WRS, they were infact on the lead lap, and were in 4th place somewhere behind me on track (unless they overtook me under red due to not being able to see eachother)

    I jumped off track to change setup at 2:00'52 in the stream, looking at my stint pics, I would say I rejoined the track at 2:01'57. wrs performed a driver change at 2:01'07, and Gravitron joined the lobby at 2:02'32. We can presume Gravitron joined track at 2:03'00 at the earliest after getting loaded and into the pits, putting WRS about 1 minute behind us. 2 minutes later at 2:05'09 the SC gets deployed. So at this point, the correct running order was:

    TNR
    GHH
    AVA (+ 1 lap)
    ROR
    WRS

    Now, TNR and GHH carried out a driver change under red, ROR was also noted as doing a DC by race control although there was no request at the time and we didn't carry one out. But, AVA were wrongly assumed to be on the lead lap, so when the DC'ing cars were moved to the back of the pack, the order looked like this:

    AVA
    WRS
    TNR
    GHH
    ROR

    The order at the restart should have been:

    ROR
    WRS
    TNR
    GHH
    AVA (after wave by)

    But we'll never know who would have won had that been the case. All that's left now is for AJ to decide if #33 get the lap back or not, me to get the facts before I start typing and let the organisers to all the hard work next time, this has been too stressful! :lol:

    Glad to finally have gotten to the bottom of it though. Again apologies to WRS for underestimating you presuming you were a lap down, and congratulations on a stellar drive! I certainly didn't expect you to be so close to the front, hence why I assumed you had also gone a lap down. You definitely deserve a podium finish!

    EDIT

    Decent rates - work long hours - no job to small! DET_CAINE.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  18. Gravitron

    Gravitron Moderator

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    @gtpcaine, you're a savage on this research. :drool: To be fair, I thought it was easily possible that we were a lap down given our driver change took at least 1min longer than it should have (it was an unplanned snap decision), and my 1 wet lap before the red flag was a 12:25 :dunce: (damage entering the Nordschleife section and the rest of the lap was under 100mph along with a few more crashes).

    When we got into the new room, after snooping that the weather was set to 0%/Fixed (:cool:) I was expecting to be somewhere near the back, so being called out 2nd was a shock and I had no idea what to do about it but shut up and drive.

    Thanks for your efforts, they should go a ways toward preventing this happening again. :tup:

    EDIT: Forgot to mention I could see all 13 cars on track during the SC.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
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  19. gtpcaine

    gtpcaine

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    When AJ was calling the order out, I had flashbacks of Spa last season (It's still a sore subject for me - was by far my best ever race - but that's another story). Ironically it was pretty much the same teams involved this time as well.
    I was 95% sure Avalarion were a lap down when the red was called, just from doing the maths while I was driving around. So when AJ called out the restart order and yourself and PASM were at the front, I presumed you must also have been a lap down. It was when AJ said about the chequered flag being shown to the #33 when I suddenly realised there had been a mistake made somewhere. I was extremely tempted to type something once I saw that message pop up, but thought better of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
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  20. orks95

    orks95

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    Congratulations to Swift Auto Sport and Pridetec Motorsport for the first hour you have achieved. I could not take my full potential Lexus and you managed to find an opening to pass. I have managed has doubled Pridetec Motorsport at the end of my stint because I was starting to get my bearings on the circuit.

    Congratulations to you

    Congratulations for your SCAR Honda race by cons I did not understand what he what happened during the race, you went ahead and I have not seen you until the end of my stint. Then my teammate to hit the road and live on I saw that you were before last, that this has happened please?

    ps: Congratulations to @Sk8ter913, you have achieved a perfect race. (Quick question: Your third driver he took the wheel?)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  21. Storm_SP17

    Storm_SP17

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    Congratulations to all the teams! There was some good battles on track, especially in the latter stages after the red flag.

    Thank you @orks95... I had a moment at the gp/d curve, and pushed to catch you and i-was-ere. I did what I could to apply some pressure to you once I had caught up but hopefully it was nothing you felt was a little over-zealous on my part.

    After that hour, on the 5th lap, my controller cable fell out and turned off the pad, so I was left with nothing to do as I headlonged into the barrier at Aremberg after about an hour or so... Needless to say my consistency was largely spoiled thereafter.

    I was surprised of the pace I had in the wet, and the car was pretty poised even though it was my dry weather setup and had no wet laps to my name on the track. Changing conditions caught me off guard after my second stop, and I was limping home when SCD and RED FLAG were called... Had I not had the moment I had I would have pitted later and tried to run three extra laps on the wets, as they were surprisingly grippy in the mixed conditions. I should have pitted for inters, but lack of experience and panic in making my stint photo overcame my decision.

    Oh well, you win some, you lose some, but you always learn... Right?
     
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  22. sk8er913

    sk8er913

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    I'm posting something related to this race in the general discussion shortly. Be sure to check it out. :)
     
  23. AJ

    AJ Premium

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    The following have now been published;


    QUALIFYING PRACTICE RESULTS


    - After Qualifying Practice
    - Qualifying Practice Classification

    RACE RESULTS

    - Race Control Notices

    - Provisional Classification
    - Provisional Classification by Driver
    - Provisional Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
    - Stint Analysis by Team

    NOTES

    - The Red Flag Procedure was carried out by Race Control correctly and in an efficient manner, save for in regard for the #42, who was moved back on the Re-Start Grid due to being mistakingly noted down as requesting a Driver Change. This was probably made in part due to the fact the team needed to make another Driver Change to avoid exceeding Maximum Driving Time. Steps on my 'Suspension of Race' Checklist have been added to prevent it occurring in the future.

    - The Chequered Flag was shown to the wrong car. This was due to an error by myself. I know what what that error was, and I know how and why it occurred. Steps on my 'End of Race' Checklist have been added to prevent it occurring in the future.

    - To compensate for this error, the Race had been called as ending when the #44 crossed the line for the first time after the Scheduled Race Time had elapsed.

    - The three cars affected (#33, #92, #95) have been credited with an extra lap, and have had 107% of their Grid Time added to their Finishing Time.

    - The #42's Post Race Penalty moves the Team from 3rd to 4th position.

    - The incident on the final Lap at Hohenrain between the #36, #43, & #45 has been investigated, and it was determined that there was an Avoidable Collision caused by the #43. A Post Race Penalty has been applied to the #43, moving the Team from 6th to 7th position.

    - The #45 was involved in a number of 'lagccidents'. Whilst we do not penalise such incidents, the Team Manger has been made aware of the situation.

    - The #95 has been Disqualified. Following investigation be the Series Promoters it has been determined that the two Drivers who were fielded for the team are in fact one. This action is neither sporting, nor in the spirit of the Series. Whilst both aliases have previously participated in the Series, they have previously not done so at the same event nor in the same car. The #95 franchise has been rescinded and both the Team Manager and Driver concerned have received suspended 12 month bans from the Series, expiring on 00:01 UTC Monday 22nd August 2016.
     
  24. orks95

    orks95

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    There are some penalties that I do not understand, can you help me understand. In the article 5.2.f*, it is stipulated that a stint should not exceed 65min. Yet in the race incident report, we have been penalized two times to overflow when driving a stint.

    You can see the copy of the report below and I completed 61min of conduct for the first stint, but I was penalized. Also during the restart we were in front with I think a lap down? I do not know. But what I do not understand reviewing the replay + races of data is how Thomas has he been able to exceed the driving time while at the resumption of the race, he remained 65min .... hummm .. I understood, he completed one lap too as the race was over .... sorry for that matter.

    Can you just explain to me for the first penalty and to restart please. Thank you.

    ps: sorry to disturb you for those explanations.


    POST 94 VEC Racing Team orks95 / Thomas67160 Lexus CCS-R TCN-1 N 01:30.000 Exceeding Maximum Stint Time. (61min)

    POST 94 VEC Racing Team orks95 / Thomas67160 Lexus CCS-R TCN-1 N 03:00.000 Exceeding Maximum Driving Time. (Converted to -1 Lap) (79min) it's ok for this penalty.


    *5.2.f A Driver must not exceed 65 minutes Track Time, without visiting the Pit Lane
     
  25. sk8er913

    sk8er913

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    stiint 7
    94
    VEC Racing Team
    Lexus CCS-R
    TCN-1
    N
    Thomas67160
    79 minutes without pit

    I would've got it too, but I realized it the lap before. So I took a pit stop on the final lap to avoid this penalty. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  26. orks95

    orks95

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    Penalty for Thomas 79min I understand, but I do not understand that of 61 min, mine.
     

    Attached Files:

  27. AJ

    AJ Premium

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    That is not a penalty. Penalties are listed on the Race Control Notices.

    That is pointing out you have not driven for enough time to be eligible to score Driver Championship points. :tup:
     
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  28. orks95

    orks95

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    Ok @AJ thank you for that.

    I want to thank all your team for the work provided so that we can enjoy quality races. Congratulations to them and thank you.

    ps: I love how the commentators say the name of our team, to listen in French it's beautiful. :)
     
  29. J Daniels

    J Daniels

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    Great race everyone!
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  30. Whitetail

    Whitetail Premium

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    Massive respect and props to @AJ and @gtpcaine for sorting that whole mess out. Whilst I am gutted for the Avalerion team who were disadvantaged in the end I must commend the Series Organizers and Promoters for realizing their mistake and taking the most appropriate action possible. Shame to hear about the incidents with the other cars and I hope we won't have such in the 24 hour race this weekend. Congratulations to TNR NISMO for their win and all other class winners and podium finishers. Here's to a great, sporting race this weekend!
     
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