Rubberband = Human?

[Wyvern_64]

I was just thinking about how the AI seem to "rubber band" around me... I get a big lead and they go faster than normal and catch up. I get in last by a ways and they slow down. But is this behavior less "rubbery" and more human? I think so...

For example, I'm doing the Formula GT championship right now. I won the first 2 races, and I'm halfway through Monaco right now. I'm being very cautious right now, one mistake and it'll ruin my championship. On Indy (one of my better tracks) I got a big lead off the start, and relaxed on the last half making sure not to make mistakes and lose the race. Replace me with the AI now, and that's seemingly part of the rubber band effect, I am a ways behind them, and they're slowing down.

Another example, at the first race at Fuji, I made a bad mistake on lap 10 and went from 1st to dead last. I start to race harder, because now I have nothing to lose (unlike before, where I had a nice lead to lose from rushing too much). In 2 laps I caught up to 1st from being 6 seconds behind. My best lap time went from ~1:15.000 to 1:13.276. Replace me with the AI again, and it seems like the rubber band effect, I get a big lead and they speed up and catch me.

To us, the players, the AI rubber band off of us. To the AI, we rubber band off of them. So I think this rubber band effect is just PD programming the AI to be more human-like. At least more like how I drive.

Thoughts? 💡

 

[DroogsDontRun]

I think its the same thing as the boost in online play but a lot more dramatic.

 

[Wyvern_64]

I think its the same thing as the boost in online play but a lot more dramatic.

Well, I don't think it's a physical boost in the car, more like a psychological boost (or relaxation) in the driver

 

[dougdoberman]

Whatever the reasoning, it's far too blatantly programmed and is annoying to me.

If the AI would key offa your actions throughout the race, that'd be one thing. But the fact that they have two times where they push BIG and unrealistically just pulls me outta the game.

They'll make a huge charge on you just before the halfway point, and again just before the end of the race. If I had to guess, I'd say at 45% and 90% total distance.

You can see it clearly in races at Indy where you have a commanding lead and where you're not changing your driving style. Running the Furai flat out the entire time, say. Right around the middle part of lap 8 they'll come steamrollering up to you at warp speed. They'll fade away again by lap 11ish only to come hard on up your rear around lap 18 - 19.

This timing is noticeable on every track, but it's clearer at clean open tracks like Indy & Daytona.

 

[NOS Waster]

Well, I don't think it's a physical boost in the car, more like a psychological boost (or relaxation) in the driver

This. 👍

When someone spins out from 1st to dead last, they will normally get very hot-headed very quickly and will start racing the wheels of their car.
I haven't noticed any physical rubber-banding effect.

When the AI seems to speed up after I pass them, i attribute it to the B-spec programming. The AI seem to behave like our B-spec drivers (only the AI are smarter ). They can get hot headed when other racers are either around them or pass them.

Basically: The "rubber band" effect we see is the AI getting angrier and pushing a little more to try and shrink the gap. Or it is us (the humans) slowing down to prevent mistakes. Or it could be both.

BUT, I have seen no true rubber banding effect.

Whatever the reasoning, it's far too blatantly programmed and is annoying to me.

If the AI would key offa your actions throughout the race, that'd be one thing. But the fact that they have two times where they push BIG and unrealistically just pulls me outta the game.

They'll make a huge charge on you just before the halfway point, and again just before the end of the race. If I had to guess, I'd say at 45% and 90% total distance.

You can see it clearly in races at Indy where you have a commanding lead and where you're not changing your driving style. Running the Furai flat out the entire time, say. Right around the middle part of lap 8 they'll come steamrollering up to you at warp speed. They'll fade away again by lap 11ish only to come hard on up your rear around lap 18 - 19.

This timing is noticeable on every track, but it's clearer at clean open tracks like Indy & Daytona.

And on indy: That is EXTREMELY blowing it out of proportion. I did the "Like the Wind" and "American Championship" Both on indy with similar cars to the AI and got in front of them. At no point did they magically gain speed. There are a few explanations for what happened, like DRAFTING, or the AI took corners better.

And those AI cars in LTW are capable of very good speeds.

 

[Bounkazz]

I think it's just the boost that kicks in. In previous GT games we always lead the race by miles. I think PD tried to stop that by lettig them rubberband, or boost.

 

[Wyvern_64]

dougdoberman, very good point, and thanks for an idea... I'm going to run the Dreamcar Indy race twice, once in a X2010 keeping on the inside of the track completely to myself and winning by a mile, then again (same AI drivers) but going slow and losing, again keeping to myself and not affecting them. Then I'll compare the times to see if how fast I go influences the times the AI gets...

(I'll do this later, have to finish FGT first )

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

I agree with post 4 and 5.

Next time that happens, look at your lap times. I guarantee they will be slower than the times where you had a big lead.

 

[Wyvern_64]

NOS waster, YES. I see it like the B-spec driver's attitude bar. You get a lead, cool off, go slower, they catch up. You make a mistake, get hot, speed up, and catch them.

I know it happens to me, especially in this FGT championship.

 

[NOS Waster]

NOS water, YES. I see it like the B-spec driver's attitude bar. You get a lead, cool off, go slower, they catch up. You make a mistake, get hot, speed up, and catch them.

I know it happens to me, especially in this FGT championship.

Yep. It happened to me in FGT. I made a huge mistake on Fuji and got down to 35 seconds behind (lol). I then drove like hell and the seconds started to come back and when i got in the lead, I couldn't figure out how to get lap times like I could when in last place. I just couldn't remember the line I took to catch the AI.

However, i think it is time for me to go babysit my bobs.

 

[ghsnu]

I seem to notice this too in myself (mostly online though).

I get the lead and I don't go as hard around the track, unless I'm trying to beat my best lap time.

I go down a place or two (or more), I race much harder and push the car more (sometimes I end up screwing up and sliding or crashing) to try and regain the lead.

We really don't know what Kaz did for the AI, but it could be that he did this for the AI for the same reason.

 

[NOS Waster]

I seem to notice this too in myself (mostly online though).

I get the lead and I don't go as hard around the track, unless I'm trying to beat my best lap time.

I go down a place or two (or more), I race much harder and push the car more (sometimes I end up screwing up and sliding or crashing) to try and regain the lead.

We really don't know what Kaz did for the AI, but it could be that he did this for the AI for the same reason.

That is very possible. If the AI push a little harder when farther down the pack, then that's awesome. It adds a little bit of humanity to the AI . The more the AI can behave like a human, the better

 

[sinner]

I haven't done enough long races to see the rubberbanding effect, but I suppose the OP has a valid point. I guess, ultimately, you have to look at the lap times. If they increase at a steady and reasonable pace (and not increase by a ridiculous margin) then I suppose there could be a "human" element to it. I just don't want to see the AI start running, say, 5 seconds per lap faster all of a sudden.

 

[dougdoberman]

And on indy: That is EXTREMELY blowing it out of proportion. I did the "Like the Wind" and "American Championship" Both on indy with similar cars to the AI and got in front of them. At no point did they magically gain speed. There are a few explanations for what happened, like DRAFTING, or the AI took corners better.

And those AI cars in LTW are capable of very good speeds.

Perhaps you need to run a faster car at Indy then. With the Furai I'm easily capable of being a full short chute ahead of them by lap 2 in "Like The Wind". I can keep a slightly higher top speed than the packs is, even with them drafting. Same with the NASCAR cars in the NASCAR Challenge.

As I said, they'll all hold in a group losing ground until lap 8ish, then warp speed down a straight to catch up. If you can hold off the overtaking from their warp speed, they'll be back to the same distance away again 2 laps later and not gain an inch until lap 18.

It's like clockwork.

And it's pretty obvious when it's happening. If you don't notice it, there are several reasons why that may be so, but rubberbanding is there folks.

That's no particular condemnation of the game. It's been a part of GT since the first game. Just wish it wasn't so obvious.

 

[Greycap]

If that was the case I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be doing the American Championship at Indianapolis and getting T1 differences:

1st lap: 0.9 seconds, Chaparral 2J in 2nd
2nd lap: 5.5 seconds - 4.6 seconds more, Chaparral still there
3rd lap: 9.5 seconds - 4 seconds more, Ford GT LM overtook the 2J
4th lap: 13.2 seconds - 3.7 seconds more, another Ford GT LM overtook the former
5th lap: 17.1 seconds - 3.9 seconds more, the second Ford GT LM still there

In short, the Chaparral is slower than the Fords and thus the gap got larger when it was the one I was being compared to. As soon as the first Ford passed the Chaparral the gap increasing slowed down a bit, the 0.2 seconds is very likely the second Ford having gained such an amount of time by slipstreaming past the first one and the last lap returned the situation back to the four second increase. Now where's the rubberbanding again?

 

[NOS Waster]

Perhaps you need to run a faster car at Indy then. With the Furai I'm easily capable of being a full short chute ahead of them by lap 2 in "Like The Wind". I can keep a slightly higher top speed than the packs is, even with them drafting. Same with the NASCAR cars in the NASCAR Challenge.

As I said, they'll all hold in a group losing ground until lap 8ish, then warp speed down a straight to catch up. If you can hold off the overtaking from their warp speed, they'll be back to the same distance away again 2 laps later and not gain an inch until lap 18.

It's like clockwork.

And it's pretty obvious when it's happening. If you don't notice it, there are several reasons why that may be so, but rubberbanding is there folks.

That's no particular condemnation of the game. It's been a part of GT since the first game. Just wish it wasn't so obvious.

I just used a Formula GT in Like The Wind. Still no rubberbanding effect from the lap times.

If that was the case I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be doing the American Championship at Indianapolis and getting T1 differences:

1st lap: 0.9 seconds, Chaparral 2J in 2nd
2nd lap: 5.5 seconds - 4.6 seconds more, Chaparral still there
3rd lap: 9.5 seconds - 4 seconds more, Ford GT LM overtook the 2J
4th lap: 13.2 seconds - 3.7 seconds more, another Ford GT LM overtook the former
5th lap: 17.1 seconds - 3.9 seconds more, the second Ford GT LM still there

In short, the Chaparral is slower than the Fords and thus the gap got larger when it was the one I was being compared to. As soon as the first Ford passed the Chaparral the gap increasing slowed down a bit, the 0.2 seconds is very likely the second Ford having gained such an amount of time by slipstreaming past the first one and the last lap returned the situation back to the four second increase. Now where's the rubberbanding again?

There we go. Concrete evidence that rubberbanding is either very weak or doesn't exist.

 

[Devedander]

I don't buy it for many reasons, the biggest of which is that while a human may press his luck in turns and be more aggressive to try and make up time, the human runs the gamble of making mistakes more and screwing up really badly.

The AI does not do this as far as I have seen.

 

[-=DV=-]

Nope....its rubber banding, I noticed it dramatically in the seasonal events, the rx7 one in particular when it worked in my favor. I hadnt fixed the brake bias so I spun coming into the first 2 corners and got a good 3/4 of a lap behind, all of a sudden my bone stock rx7 drove more like a 458 italia! I had caught the pack within a lap and then the rx7 started driving like a drunken clown once I HAD rejoined the pack! Rubberbanding has NO PLACE in ANY title that refers to itself as a sim

 

[schigara]

I have never noticed any rubber banding in this GT or any of the previous versions.

While waiting for GT5 to be released, I played NFS Hot Pursuit. That POS has rubber banding.

 

[Devedander]

I have never noticed any rubber banding in this GT or any of the previous versions.

While waiting for GT5 to be released, I played NFS Hot Pursuit. That POS has rubber banding.

Rubber banding has been in all the GTs till now and Kaz has said that it's both to keep races interesting and because it would be unreasonable in many of the events to do things like pass a dozne similar cars in one lap without rubber banding.

 

[Spagetti69]

I have never noticed any rubber banding in this GT or any of the previous versions.

While waiting for GT5 to be released, I played NFS Hot Pursuit. That POS has rubber banding.

If you never noticed it before you will never notice it ever.
Hang on, you did notice it in pursuit though.

Maybe your memory failed you.
Personally I believe banding is alive and well within gt5.

 

[EmptyBox]

Oh yea, it's here.

FGT Series, Monaco. I was in the lead, made a mistake (Lodged it in the wall). I caught back up, all over the leader's gearbox and he does 1:16s. I take the lead, start doing 1:13.8s.

I'm 2.2 seconds a lap faster by that logic, yet suddenly he starts turning laps a second and a half quicker than he had been doing with me behind him.

If it were smarter, you'd go faster to preserve the lead, rather than wait to be passed then turn it up 3 notches. 1.5 seconds in an FGT at Monaco is a pretty hefty time chunk to suddenly "find".

 

[HumptyMoo]

I have never noticed any rubber banding in this GT or any of the previous versions.

While waiting for GT5 to be released, I played NFS Hot Pursuit. That POS has rubber banding.

It is there but only to a very small degree in early races, veterans will destroy the AI and say "rubber what?" newcomers and casuals will say "hmm..it say's GT5but if i heat the cover will it say NFS?"

Relax.

Later event's: there is no rubber banding, I have done events over and over and won/lost to the lead car who nearly always pumps in the same scripted time.

It's a huge nativity play, merry xmas (or whatever you do or don't celebrate )

Beginner and amatuer really do speed/slow according to pace though...just hit em with a veyron of FGT some time down the road to show em who their daddy really is.

 

[-=DV=-]

Rubber banding has been in all the GTs till now and Kaz has said that it's both to keep races interesting and because it would be unreasonable in many of the events to do things like pass a dozne similar cars in one lap without rubber banding.

Im starting to get the feeling that kaz really has no concept of the meaning of the word "simulator" why comprimise the realism of a "sim" to accomodate unrealistic challenges rather than change the challenges to something a little less arcady. I mean overtake all cars in a lap, might aswell put checkpoints and a countdown timer in. While your at it put it in a penny arcade with a heavily burned in screen and a half broken wheel and pedals with a brake that doesnt work. CMON KAZ! 👎

 

[Metfanant]

Later event's: there is no rubber banding, I have done events over and over and won/lost to the lead car who nearly always pumps in the same scripted time.

completely untrue...while running the FGT Championship the rubberband AI was HORRID IMO...if I spun out and lost the lead, I was able to make up time easily which obviously means that im running faster lap times. As soon as I got the lead the top AI cars would start running identical lap times to mine, sometimes picking up seconds per lap in the process. If I then would make a mistake and lose the lead the whole process would start over again...

 

[Patrocles]

I don't buy it for many reasons, the biggest of which is that while a human may press his luck in turns and be more aggressive to try and make up time, the human runs the gamble of making mistakes more and screwing up really badly.

The AI does not do this as far as I have seen.

+1
I can win races from the back when I spin out on the last lap. That is not right but it may be due to my being a lowly Level 12 a-spec.

I think many just want the AI to be better than it really is in GT5 and there is nothing wrong this that as long as it is not taken too far.
There is an old saying, 'Denial ain't just a river in Egypt (yeah, it is also a psychological coping mechanism! )

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Well, at Monza, On the final straight, I was doing about 229 MPH when I was leading the race. I spun out and went to the back of the pack. Now I was doing about 242 MPH on the final straight with the FGT. There are 2 parts. There is the unrealistic part that I just mentioned. And then there is the B-spec stress level part, where when your driver gets in the lead, if you leave him alone, he will go in the blue and ultimately slow down.

 

[JJ72]

Well, I don't think it's a physical boost in the car, more like a psychological boost (or relaxation) in the driver

I disagree out of my experience in the FGT championship.

You know in nurburgring they always spin out at the chicane right? So I get a big lead already in lap 3, 15 seconds ahead, I am improving my lap time still and hasn't make any mistake. I notice The time difference between me and the second car is closing 1 second PER SECTOR until it spins at the chicane again.
this is no way a possible pace as I have been lapping at least 1 second faster than the AI in all the previous races. And the odd thing is once they close in enough, at about 9 second behind me their progress stopped.

Now in another scenario on Monaco I made an mistake late race and dropped to last, I have to catch up 6 places within 3 laps, not only did the AI slowed down dramatically, I beat my own lap record by 2.5 seconds with a lap that isn't even clean, and I can literally feel the increase in acceleration and grip.

The rubberbanding is very obvious in FGT, I have not notice as much in other series, but it is definitely there and it is physical.

 

[inkieminstrel]

There is definitely rubber banding in some events.

I just finished the two advanced karting events, where all vehicles are identical. You start at the back which is ~5 seconds down from P1. It's fairly easy to pass everyone. On Tokyo, you can do it in the first 3 corners. On Autumn Ring, it takes about a lap. Once you pass everyone, it's incredibly difficult to build a gap. The AI was never more than about a second behind me, despite losing 5 seconds in the first lap.

On Autumn Ring, I noticed that when I was behind the AI, I'd be bouncing off the rev limiter about 2/3 of the way down the start/finish straight. When I was in front of them, I'd rarely hit it, and only ever at the end of the straight. There's a chance this was some drafting effect, but I'd be curious to know if anyone else sees a slight performance boost while chasing the AI.

 

[Wyvern_64]

I disagree out of my experience in the FGT championship.

I've seen that too, and it happened to me more than once. But looking at it from a person's perspective, if you spun out at that corner, wouldn't you be racing harder than normal?