Say For Example...

[Joe43302]

Thinking of online etiquitte and all the bad drivers, I know we've all retaliated in a game once or twice (or quite a bit). I usually never do, but I have, from time to time, been known to, if the offense was serious enough. Reason I don't is not only does it lower my quality, it's likely to mess you up as well.

HOWEVER...

It's been in my mind as of late, how is racing with rubbing looked upon (here anyway) someone you know to be a genuine filthy racer without provokation? Say, I see someone intentionally hit someone in an effort to wreck them, should I end up in the same spot as the victim, do I play it safe and stay away, attempt to pass as normal, or go straight for the kill? It's just been on my mind. I'm almost always on answer 2, and just extra cautious although it usually doesn't pay off, however I've come to the defense of... Well, let's just say a few of you GTP_ members who were minding their own business and enjoying a race when someone decides to take a shot at you and suceeds. Yeah, I might end up taking them down myself, just because you guys have always been clean to me (so far!), and something in my head tells me that even if it costs me the race, it beats letting some filthy scumbag rammer take the victory.

What are your thoughts? Does it make you any less of a driver to retaliate against unprovoked attacks? What about someone you've witnessed performing such actions on other? Is it bad that you would wreck them in hopes that it prevents them from doing the same to you?

 

[SjefGielen]

As long as people retaliate, the problem doesn't go away.
Conclusion: Don't retaliate, it's not worth it.

 

[Flerbizky]

As long as people retaliate, the problem doesn't go away.

It doesn't go away - period...

Sorry..

 

[BMfan]

If you drive like them in any way then you are them.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Tuck in behind them, wait for the inevitable screw up then get in front and beat them by 10secs clear - works for me.

Remember - most rammers can't drive worth a toss, best revenge is to rub their nose in it

 

[Joe43302]

Tuck in behind them, wait for the inevitable screw up then get in front and beat them by 10secs clear - works for me.

Remember - most rammers can't drive worth a toss, best revenge is to rub their nose in it

Which is actually great advice I follow when possible. Problem is when I get tossed in the Corvette or slightly bumped off track, that's usually race over for me You probably know or have an idea at what getting that RWD 60 feet out of the sand (after getting a shortcut penalty too) from being hit by someone does to a lap... By that time it's pretty much just a matter of letting it go, because at that point there's little hope in me catching them again, especially in the 5-10 seconds of having to readjust to the dirty tires when you get back on the track...

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Which is actually great advice I follow when possible. Problem is when I get tossed in the Corvette or slightly bumped off track, that's usually race over for me You probably know or have an idea at what getting that RWD 60 feet out of the sand (after getting a shortcut penalty too) from being hit by someone does to a lap... By that time it's pretty much just a matter of letting it go, because at that point there's little hope in me catching them again, especially in the 5-10 seconds of having to readjust to the dirty tires when you get back on the track...

Yeah I hear that - happens to me from time to time too. Never give up tho, I've seen me coming from about 20secs back , into the top 5 inside a lap and a half. If there's lot of ramming then there's lots of chances for you to take advantage.

 

[slicecom]

If I get punted off and it was clearly deliberate, I almost always catch up (because 99% of punters can't drive), and If the opportunity presents itself, i'll retaliate. I wont go out of my way, or compromise my race to do so though.

Also if someone punts me off, then I see them punt someone else off as well, the chances are much higher that I'll retaliate so I can have a clean race with the good racers with the punters far behind.

 

[helseth]

If I get punted off and it was clearly deliberate, I almost always catch up (because 99% of punters can't drive), and If the opportunity presents itself, i'll retaliate. I wont go out of my way, or compromise my race to do so though.

Also if someone punts me off, then I see them punt someone else off as well, the chances are much higher that I'll retaliate so I can have a clean race with the good racers with the punters far behind.

Retaliation against most of those won´t do any good. They'll just let it off on someone else... It won´t sink in no matter what. That´s why some people drink, smoke, rob, steal, do drugs, kill, rape and so on, regardless if it´s legal, healthy or banned.

 

[neilX]

What are your thoughts? Does it make you any less of a driver to retaliate against unprovoked attacks? What about someone you've witnessed performing such actions on other? Is it bad that you would wreck them in hopes that it prevents them from doing the same to you?

• Does it make you any less of a driver to retaliate against unprovoked attacks?
  Yes, you're lowering yourself to their level.
• What about someone you've witnessed performing such actions on other?
  Same as above.
• Is it bad that you would wreck them in hopes that it prevents them from doing the same to you?
  Same as above or possibly even worse if they haven't actually done anything to you yet.

As a few have said here already, the problem isn't likely to go away any time soon, but I think the only hope is to set a good example. If they ram you or you see them ramming somebody else, don't ram them back, instead do your best to beat them cleanly and show them what good driving really is.

Remember - most rammers can't drive worth a toss, best revenge is to rub their nose in it

 

[Stotty]

If I've been bumped/nudged by someone once (which hasn't resulted in a major off) then I'll just carry on as normal. Especially if the general standard of their driving is OK - ie; they are braking in good time and trying to hit apexs.

If I get hit/rammed more than once by the same offender and I subsequently have the choice of braking early, or going off-line to avoid him (and that would hurt my lap time or track position) or hitting him, I'll take the contact and feel no guilt whatsoever.

There's always going to be some contact in racing, but if I feel the contact is unintentional/accidental, then no problems.

 

[SpyHunter]

Ran into this last night. I was punted twice by the same driver. Used me as brakes. The second time I had enough. I caught him, and as we came out of the hairpin, squeezed him out onto the grass. Didn't wreck him, but made him work. Another GTP'er must of saw all this, and as the offensive driver caught up to him at the spoon, I saw them tangle and the offensive driver was sliding backwards off track and into the sand. I must admit, I had a big smile on my face. It might be that the offensive driver just lost it, but either way, I was ecstatic.

My biggest issue is that I use a car that isn't a straight line monster. It is built to handle. But I will, enevitably, get caught behind a novice/bad driver in the esses, slow down for them, and in turn, get punted.

I think I will no longer seek to retaliate. If it is bad enough, I will leave, back off, or just park it.

 

[Badmoon]

If I've been bumped/nudged by someone once (which hasn't resulted in a major off) then I'll just carry on as normal. Especially if the general standard of their driving is OK - ie; they are braking in good time and trying to hit apexs.

If I get hit/rammed more than once by the same offender and I subsequently have the choice of braking early, or going off-line to avoid him (and that would hurt my lap time or track position) or hitting him, I'll take the contact and feel no guilt whatsoever.

There's always going to be some contact in racing, but if I feel the contact is unintentional/accidental, then no problems.

Yep thats pretty much my position aswell. It's the people who try and force you off the track who are the problem. If theres 5 cars trying to get round the same corner at the same time you have to expect a bit of a mess.

 

[slicecom]

Retaliation against most of those won´t do any good. They'll just let it off on someone else... It won´t sink in no matter what. That´s why some people drink, smoke, rob, steal, do drugs, kill, rape and so on, regardless if it´s legal, healthy or banned.

Oh I agree, but I get personal satisfaction out of retaliating. Note: I only do it in extreme cases.

 

[slicecom]

Ran into this last night. I was punted twice by the same driver. Used me as brakes. The second time I had enough. I caught him, and as we came out of the hairpin, squeezed him out onto the grass. Didn't wreck him, but made him work. Another GTP'er must of saw all this, and as the offensive driver caught up to him at the spoon, I saw them tangle and the offensive driver was sliding backwards off track and into the sand. I must admit, I had a big smile on my face. It might be that the offensive driver just lost it, but either way, I was ecstatic.

My biggest issue is that I use a car that isn't a straight line monster. It is built to handle. But I will, enevitably, get caught behind a novice/bad driver in the esses, slow down for them, and in turn, get punted.

I think I will no longer seek to retaliate. If it is bad enough, I will leave, back off, or just park it.

That might have been me. I took out a couple cars that I saw running fellow GTPers off the road last night.

 

[Joe43302]

My only problem with most of the arguements seems to stem from the fact that you assume that the better a driver we are, the better example we'll set, and the better they're likely to drive in the future. See, the problem comes into play with, by that logic, if they realize that ramming can often result in a win, the example we're setting is already being clouded by the simpleness of their own system, which is:

Good driver, looks like he can win...
Hit him in a turn, put him out of race...
Hold on till the end...
Victory lane...

Which, by itself, is only going to encourage it further. I mean, if I drive well against someone, push hard the whole time, drive clean, yet every single encounter I've lost because you punt me off the track at some point, don't you think it might reassure that idea that ramming takes precedence over good clean driving if you want to win? The reason I'm sure so many people rob, steal, smoke, rape, etc., is because of the instant gratification, and there appears to be no reprecussions at the time of the actions. Get what I'm saying?

 

[SpyHunter]

That might have been me. I took out a couple cars that I saw running fellow GTPers off the road last night.

Na, it was GTP_JncRp, or something. White Audi R8, set under 700PP.

I missed you guys somehow. What time zone are you in? Are you going to the tracks at the listed time? I pretty much am sticking with Suzuka right now. Don't car for the ovals. Will be setting some cars up for the lower PP races at Suzuka, though.

 

[slicecom]

Na, it was GTP_JncRp, or something. White Audi R8, set under 700PP.

I missed you guys somehow. What time zone are you in? Are you going to the tracks at the listed time? I pretty much am sticking with Suzuka right now. Don't car for the ovals. Will be setting some cars up for the lower PP races at Suzuka, though.

Yeah we followed the schedule, but I didn't do any oval races or fake tracks. I'm in EST.

 

[SpyHunter]

Yeah we followed the schedule, but I didn't do any oval races or fake tracks. I'm in EST.

Ok. Might have to start doing that.

 

[slicecom]

My only problem with most of the arguements seems to stem from the fact that you assume that the better a driver we are, the better example we'll set, and the better they're likely to drive in the future. See, the problem comes into play with, by that logic, if they realize that ramming can often result in a win, the example we're setting is already being clouded by the simpleness of their own system, which is:

Good driver, looks like he can win...
Hit him in a turn, put him out of race...
Hold on till the end...
Victory lane...

Which, by itself, is only going to encourage it further. I mean, if I drive well against someone, push hard the whole time, drive clean, yet every single encounter I've lost because you punt me off the track at some point, don't you think it might reassure that idea that ramming takes precedence over good clean driving if you want to win? The reason I'm sure so many people rob, steal, smoke, rape, etc., is because of the instant gratification, and there appears to be no reprecussions at the time of the actions. Get what I'm saying?

You make a good point.

I honestly don't care much about winning anymore, I've beat the game and own every car. I'd much rather have a good battle and finish 3rd than dominate and finish 1st. It just makes me mad when I see people racing dirty. How can they even feel good about a win when they had to ram 3 people off the road to get it? I just don't understand.

 

[Stotty]

I honestly think that entry to at least one class of on-line racing (say the 750pt events) should be restricted to people who have managed to win all the in-game races at gold level.

Why? To get the times needed to gold the license tests (well, some of them, at least) requires that you learn how to drive in the manner that the game creators intended. By that, I mean brake at the brake points, hit the apexs and accelerate smoothly, as opposed to just braking way too late, stuffing the front in to the corner and scrubbing off speed with understeer - which is how I see most people driving on-line.

This would at least give the hardcore fans somewhere clean to go.

 

[slicecom]

I honestly think that entry to at least one class of on-line racing (say the 750pt events) should be restricted to people who have managed to win all the in-game races at gold level.

Why? To get the times needed to gold the license tests (well, some of them, at least) requires that you learn how to drive in the manner that the game creators intended.

I disagree. To get gold in many of the events, you have to drive like a maniac. I hate how Polyphony is training people to overtake the whole field in one lap etc... That's not how real racing is, and thats not how you should race online.

 

[Stotty]

My experience of golding all the races in GT5P (and of getting gold in ALL the license test on all previous versions of GT) is that 'driving like a maniac' is counter productive - in almost all cases, braking early, following the racing line, hitting the apex, maximising corner EXIT speed and avoiding significant contact (ie; contact that would result in knocking someone else off) results in the fastest lap times.

 

[helseth]

I honestly think that entry to at least one class of on-line racing (say the 750pt events) should be restricted to people who have managed to win all the in-game races at gold level.

Why? To get the times needed to gold the license tests (well, some of them, at least) requires that you learn how to drive in the manner that the game creators intended. By that, I mean brake at the brake points, hit the apexs and accelerate smoothly, as opposed to just braking way too late, stuffing the front in to the corner and scrubbing off speed with understeer - which is how I see most people driving on-line.

This would at least give the hardcore fans somewhere clean to go.

Not everybody has the opportunity to drive for several hours to an end. Some might be good drivers, but won´t bother to ace all offline challenges. (Can´t see the point, really). As long as one can set records using somewhat dodgy tactics, this won´t do any good. In my opinion some of those events encourage aggressive behavior. One lap to overtake all...

 

[Joe43302]

I disagree. To get gold in many of the events, you have to drive like a maniac. I hate how Polyphony is training people to overtake the whole field in one lap etc... That's not how real racing is, and thats not how you should race online.

Not to mention if you read Thuggles thread he's explaining in a different forum ways to circumvent things like the penalty system to win.

It's really just a mix of luck and working the game to your benefit in the S classes, and I've completely lost interest in them. They're more of a traveling freak show than an actual race.

"Watch in horror as your AI competition defies the laws of physics (that you're still bound by)! Gaze in astonishment as you're sideswiped by a careless computer and penalized for ramming him! Feast your eyes on the last place start you receive by default!"

It's just flat out stupid. I'm not trying to say this to down you guys who've managed to do it, but I just have to say I don't think beating the S-class is as much about skill as it is pure dumb luck, pushing your limits in a bad way, and pure persistence. The last thing is a great trait though, so don't get me wrong, but after spending all these weeks playing the game solely, and seeing all the obvious flaws, my drive to play them further is probably about the same level as PD's drive to fix them...

So I just don't see that having a great impact on the quality of drivers. Plus, you're forgetting that some people don't mind losing to an AI competitor, but the mentality turns into "by any means" when it's against a real world person, and you winning over on someone may just be instigating them to put you down, you know?

 

[bjmels]

I honestly think that entry to at least one class of on-line racing (say the 750pt events) should be restricted to people who have managed to win all the in-game races at gold level.

Why? To get the times needed to gold the license tests (well, some of them, at least) requires that you learn how to drive in the manner that the game creators intended. By that, I mean brake at the brake points, hit the apexs and accelerate smoothly, as opposed to just braking way too late, stuffing the front in to the corner and scrubbing off speed with understeer - which is how I see most people driving on-line.

This would at least give the hardcore fans somewhere clean to go.

I disagree too. I consider myself a clean driver, but there's no way I will be able to get gold in everything. (at least in my lifetime!)
Once we get private rooms, gameplay will improve.

 

[kensei]

Thinking of online etiquitte and all the bad drivers, I know we've all retaliated in a game once or twice (or quite a bit). I usually never do, but I have, from time to time, been known to, if the offense was serious enough. Reason I don't is not only does it lower my quality, it's likely to mess you up as well.

HOWEVER...

It's been in my mind as of late, how is racing with rubbing looked upon (here anyway) someone you know to be a genuine filthy racer without provokation? Say, I see someone intentionally hit someone in an effort to wreck them, should I end up in the same spot as the victim, do I play it safe and stay away, attempt to pass as normal, or go straight for the kill? It's just been on my mind. I'm almost always on answer 2, and just extra cautious although it usually doesn't pay off, however I've come to the defense of... Well, let's just say a few of you GTP_ members who were minding their own business and enjoying a race when someone decides to take a shot at you and suceeds. Yeah, I might end up taking them down myself, just because you guys have always been clean to me (so far!), and something in my head tells me that even if it costs me the race, it beats letting some filthy scumbag rammer take the victory.

What are your thoughts? Does it make you any less of a driver to retaliate against unprovoked attacks? What about someone you've witnessed performing such actions on other? Is it bad that you would wreck them in hopes that it prevents them from doing the same to you?

Racing with "rubbing" happens in online play. Even if you race ultra clean. The problem comes from many people racing there not understanding racing in the first place.

For example...you are behind someone coming into a corner. You pull to the inside and out brake them into the corner thus taking the inside (correct) line. Professional drivers (except for David Coultard) would realize they lost the corner and concede to fall inline behind the driver who just pulled the move. In online play usually the person on the outside, in my experience, doesn't realize it or even do anything about it. They usually either rub you all the way around the corner or drive themselves off the track (which happens alot at Suzuka). Then, often, they come here and complain that they were pushed off the track by a GTP driver when in reality it was their own lack of understanding racing etiquette.

Another issue is simple visablity in GT5p. Unlike a real car you can't turn your head and see where you fenders are and know how close you are too someone. Yes I know you can "turn your head" in game, but how many people use that while racing without inducing vertigo. We also develop a sense of "how big out car is" in game by feel, but sometimes it can be off, especially in 16 car race. So sometimes it just happens. No harm, no foul...it can't be helped when 16 cars all want the same spot and 10 of those cars are being driven by punters (in GTRs).

Unlike most real racing, where you have a real risk of life and death and generally know most of the other drivers out there on a weekly basis...and know which ones you trust running side by side with and those you don't...we don't have that in GT5P as everytime we race online it's generally new people. We will never have the fear of death in driving in game to keep us safe either, which is part of the charm of GT... the restart button after you stuff the car into a barrier.

I look forward to private rooms/races or invite only races where I can go race people I trust and know. It will be better racing. I have a few "GTP_xxxx" contacts I've meet out on the track that when I see them in the grid I trust and can run close to them. But they are few right now.

 

[slicecom]

Racing with "rubbing" happens in online play. Even if you race ultra clean. The problem comes from many people racing there not understanding racing in the first place.

For example...you are behind someone coming into a corner. You pull to the inside and out brake them into the corner thus taking the inside (correct) line. Professional drivers (except for David Coultard) would realize they lost the corner and concede to fall inline behind the driver who just pulled the move. In online play usually the person on the outside, in my experience, doesn't realize it or even do anything about it. They usually either rub you all the way around the corner or drive themselves off the track (which happens alot at Suzuka). Then, often, they come here and complain that they were pushed off the track by a GTP driver when in reality it was their own lack of understanding racing etiquette.

Another issue is simple visablity in GT5p. Unlike a real car you can't turn your head and see where you fenders are and know how close you are too someone. Yes I know you can "turn your head" in game, but how many people use that while racing without inducing vertigo. We also develop a sense of "how big out car is" in game by feel, but sometimes it can be off, especially in 16 car race. So sometimes it just happens. No harm, no foul...it can't be helped when 16 cars all want the same spot and 10 of those cars are being driven by punters (in GTRs).

Unlike most real racing, where you have a real risk of life and death and generally know most of the other drivers out there on a weekly basis...and know which ones you trust running side by side with and those you don't...we don't have that in GT5P as everytime we race online it's generally new people. We will never have the fear of death in driving in game to keep us safe either, which is part of the charm of GT... the restart button after you stuff the car into a barrier.

I look forward to private rooms/races or invite only races where I can go race people I trust and know. It will be better racing. I have a few "GTP_xxxx" contacts I've meet out on the track that when I see them in the grid I trust and can run close to them. But they are few right now.

Hey! Coulthard hasn't been at fault in any of his shunts this season, they're all the fault of the other driver!

/sarcasm

I agree that it’s much harder to see traffic around you in the game than in real life, but we’re talking about clearly deliberate cutting off, brake checking and ramming into the back of cars.

 

[kensei]

Hey! Coulthard hasn't been at fault in any of his shunts this season, they're all the fault of the other driver!

Between Coultard and Webber...they should just put a Newey designed plow on the front of the Red Bull so those two could punt people off faster. Though if Newey designed it it would crush if you looked at it...

I agree that it’s much harder to see traffic around you in the game than in real life, but we’re talking about clearly deliberate cutting off, brake checking and ramming into the back of cars.

I realize that. I was simply pointing out that sometimes there is contact in the game, even between two racers that aren't punters due to lack of racing knowledge. Which is fundamentally the issue for the punters too. Lack of racing knowledge and/or maturity issues and/or having a clue. THis is a video game after all and alot of the people playing it love playing N4S or GTA where you are almost encouraged to hit things in game play. Even though alot of us here see GT as a racing sim...we are the vast minority out there. Most see it as an arcade game to drive cars...much like what pole position was like on the Atari way back when.

 

[Stotty]

Hmmm... other than A3 I didn't find the golds that difficult in GT5P compared to some of the license tests in previous version... but Ok then, how about all silver as the threshold. It might not stop the really persistant people who find a way round the penalties (like Thuggles), but it would remove the vast majority of tossers.