SCCA SWTC Points/Weights - Results UPDATED - 2nd august

  • Thread starter Thread starter yourlocalgod
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ok ill fix that mistake later boom...sorry just an oversight.
 
my little protege suprisingly is loving the extra weight, it seems to react more predictably.
 
yourlocalgod
my little protege suprisingly is loving the extra weight, it seems to react more predictably.
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The handling is OK, but the climbs are killers!
I'm REALLY not looking forward to having the extra baggage for the hills at Infineon! :nervous:
 
Looks like the Proteges are going to need restrictor plates! You're maxed out on ballast but still running away from the pack.
 
we may, ill see how we wind up here at infineon...thing is that when we were all at no weight, we were all pretty even. i was finishing 6thish. now that weight is on some people, we seem to be really one upping the pack, it just makes me wonder if some people arent trying as hard in the middle of the season due to boredom with the series or something. but we'll see how it goes this week...we may get smoked and that will settle the issue, but if not we will figure something out.
 
yourlocalgod
my little protege suprisingly is loving the extra weight, it seems to react more predictably.
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the bmw also handles better with the weight too. but the hills and breaking dont help. with 195 ya im slower than if i had now weight but when i had something like 45 i think i was a bit quicker. well quicker in some areas.
 
yourlocalgod
we seem to be really one upping the pack, it just makes me wonder if some people arent trying as hard in the middle of the season due to boredom with the series or something.
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I usually get a 1-hour practice session sometime in the middle of the week, and a 1-hour warmup/race run on Sunday. That's been my consistent pattern for all rounds to date. I've got about 500-550 miles on my practice mule.
 
Duke
Looks like the Proteges are going to need restrictor plates! You're maxed out on ballast but still running away from the pack.
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We weren't maxed out in Week 6, though. Now that we are in Week 7, let's see how the Protege fares.

Also note that I've only actually been on the podium three times, with my other finishes being 5th, 6th, and 7th.

Edit: Manufacturer points have been helped out greatly by the fact that we've had two drivers submit decent times in each race.
 
That is true; I've been a solo run for the last two weeks. But all four Mazdas have consistently been up there and the Acuras have consistently back here.

That's not to take away from the quality of Mazda's factory drivers; I know for a fact you could jump in my car and take a second off my lap.
 
I think part of the Proteges' success at Deep Forest can be attributed to it being the only car running a wing. More than any other track we've run, DF is a downforce track, with only one really slow corner. Tracks like Motegi and HK suit the higher hp, lower df cars better because of all the slow corners.
 
Wait a minute - they're running wings? I asked why the cars didn't have wings (like the real series) and YLG said it was because the Protege wouldn't be able to keep up... I just didn't realize they were running a wing, I guess.

[edit]

In rereading this, I realized I sound like I'm whining. I don't mean to! I'm not trying to blame my slowness on the car. I'll run what I brung and I'm having fun doing it; I just figured at the halfway point that we might be able to get a review.
 
In tune with the Protege's running away with the round at DF, I certainly should have been able to beat both of them (My SRT doesn't have a wing), but due to two stupid mistakes, I ended up behind them. Mind you, I think it is fair to keep in mind that in GT3 I sort of came out as a DF expert, I just happened to always be running on that track in real serious/devoted challenges. Apricot Hill too. However, it shouldn't have been a run-away like it was, I blame myself entirely for my not-nearly-as-good-as-it-could-have-been performance.

But, unlike the real SWTC series, our ballast is limited to 200; whereas they can add an additional 50 ontop of the 200 cap. Like the Acura's are currently running with. (In the real thing I mean)... either way, I have begun to think that the cars aren't quite as evenly matched as we all thought in the initial rounds. But, I must say they are fairly close in most areas.

However, a wing is like a transmission. It simply doesn't seem right that some cars get a wing. It would be like restricting a car to having no fully customizable transmission, that's a HUGE difference in setup. Most of these cars have a crap stock tranny. Same goes for a fully customizable suspension. Those three things should be on all or none of the cars, I think. I guess that's just more on the plate for the next season ;)
 
Greetings fellow TC owners, :cheers:

I just spent a half an hour testing two other cars at Deep Forest. I'm not trying to be...well, anything...but I'm calling them as I see them. :O

Since the current "dog" in question is the RSX-S, I started here. First, TC, like TML said, your car should be at 259 hp. Check your specs and make sure you're getting everything:
yourlocalgod
ALL CARS SHARE THE FOLLOWING: 1-way LSD, Stage 3 lightweight, Full Custom Transmission, Semi Racing Suspension, Racing Flywheel, Racing Brakes, R3 Tires (race Medium), and oil change

ADDITIONAL MODS ARE:
Acura RSX: Race Exhaust, Sport ECU, Stage 1 N/A Tune
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It took me twenty (20) whole laps of tuning, but I was able to turn in a sub-1'22.000.

Second, I tested the the Volvo S60 (without the engine balancing that was subsequently added to the original spec sheet).
Five (5) laps later, I was sub-1'22.000. Granted, I had tested the S60 when it was in question earlier, so I had her dialed in pretty much to my liking. Only minor adjustments were needed for this circuit.

Like the race steward said, the point is to have fun and be competitive. To that end, the Volvo was pumped up a bit. I'll leave it up to him based on further test results to determine whether the RSX-S and/or others get similar treatment, but as to the huge advantage the 247 hp Protege has... :rolleyes:
 
Well I can tell you this, the HUGE advantage of the Protege (we're talking wing here). I ran a bunch of laps with wing, and a bunch of laps without. (like 15-20 each) and with the wing is about 2.5-3.0 seconds faster, which, even at a full 200 ballast penalty is quite a bit faster than I could put my SRT-4 around the track with merely 100 ballast. That wing definitely makes a big difference.

Having said that, I still find the SRT-4 to be more fun to drive as the Protege feels like a slug, it just doesnt want to slow down and turn at the same time. Luckily it has that wing making for easy coasting through the turns.

I'm going to abandon testing at Infineon (even though it would help for the coming race) and take any cars I decide to test on down to Deep Forest because then I have everyone elses times to compare to, instead of with-holding the times I see until I get times in from round 7....
 
Of course having the wing is an advantage over not having it. My point was that it is not the fastest car out there. Not at +140 kg ballast, and certainly not at +200.
 
Nope, it's second fastest out there at +200:

The conditions were to get the settings as similar as possible, make sure the gears worked out correct, and then run 20-25 laps in each car until I felt comfortable that I couldn't get much faster (so within 0.250 of what I considered attainable by me). The other rule I put on my testing was to use the CURRENT REWARDS ballast weight. Since I didn't write down everyone's weight in Rd 6, I just used the current one, which makes for equal testing I think. My final stipulation was that all cars were to be tested with ZERO ASM/TCS. The cars I tested (figures listed with weight penalty, and in the main menu of the garage):

Dodge SRT-4 (254 Hp, 1247 kg, 4.907 PWR)
Acura RSX-S (259 Hp, 1066 kg, 4.116 PWR)
Honda Accord Euro-R (300 Hp, 1196 kg, 3.992 PWR)
BMW 330i (277 Hp, 1460 kg, 5.270 PWR)
Mazda Protege (247 Hp, 1229 kg, 4.974 PWR)

Of the lot of them, the protege feels the crappiest, it just doesn't want to turn, however, with that nice wing on it, coasting through turns is a breeze, and high speed corners are taken at ease.
Next to it for 'crap feel' is the Accord, it just plows into turns, and then plows out, but, it does hold a relatively good speed mid-turn, and clearly wins in top speed (300Hp of course). Its brakes are just about even with the field (except for one car which stands out something fierce). And this thing has amazingly smooth power delivery, not peaky, no overload ranges, just nice smooth delivery from 4500 all the way to 9000.
The RSX was a beaut to drive. This thing had very little understeer on turn-in, AMAZING brakes, it outbraked everything in turn 1 on Forest. Most cars I start braking right as I cross the shadow of the bridge; but the RSX could go a full car length deeper. The powerband on this thing is also AWESOME. Anything about 6000 and there is gobs of power there. This leads to the car's big downfall, turn-exit. It sucks on exit, you have to wait and wait and wait before really applying any power or expect to go real wide.
The Bimmer also has a real niec powerband, and I was impressed that it brakes as well as it does, I kind of expected to have to brake earlier than the rest of the field, but I think due to the very mild oversteer of RWD it keeps up in braking. The slight oversteer was great, this thing clearly handles better than the rest of the cars I tested, especially from mid-turn to exit.
The SRT-4 is just a solid all-around car. Nothing sticks out about its performance except for mid-turn speed and stability, it is about tied with the RSX-S for mid turn, other than that, everything is just about dead average.

The Results:
BMW 330i.......(+195 Ballast): 0'26.491 / 0'57.106 / 1'20.219
Mazda Protege..(+200 Ballast): 0'26.515 / 0'57.891 / 1'20.742
Acura RSX-S....(+000 Ballast): 0'26.571 / 0'57.499 / 1'21.162
Dodge SRT-4....(+100 Ballast): 0'26.655 / 0'57.741 / 1'21.563
Accord Euro-R..(+015 Ballast): 0'26.989 / 0'58.049 / 1'21.584

So, for me to make as unbiased a conclusion as I can. The Bimmer is clearly faster than the field, with the Protege slightly behind. The RSX is plenty capable, but considering the weight penalty, it is probably missing something. The Accord (TSX) is in a similar position, though a little more pronounced. The SRT-4 is also a little behind, though not as much as the Accord. This kind of makes me want to test out the rest of the field, but right now I am way too tired, and just figured I would post my findings.

If I could pass a suggestion for a future season, it would be that all cars are given the EXACT SAME mods, and then the power is modified to even out the field, using the REWARDS system to balance as the season goes. This way, there can be no complaints or biasing, since all the cars have the same non-power related mods, and have their Hp tuned to equalize capabilities. I especially would have to say that the Full Custom Tranny, Wings, and Suspension level be equal in all cars.

Oh, and to let you all know what the relative settings were:
Springs: MAX / MAX
Ride Height: MIN / MIN
Dampers: 2 / 9 (except the Bimmer @ 7 / 3)
Camber: 2.9 / 1.5
Custom gears, using only 2 through 5
+50 on the Ballast position
 
Thanks Missing Link for your testing - i guess its just me being crappy with the RSX-S then!!!

I think a lot of my lack of speed probably comes down to set-up - your settings are miles away from what i used, i never would have gone in this direction - i'll give yours a try (perhaps slightly softer at the front to help exit speed, people i know who race front drive cars swear by having a harder back-end than the front) and see if i can get a second and a half from my times then i'll be happy.
My lap times were so consistant at DF i knew i didn't have much more to gain from my driving, i thought it must be either my settings or the car.
 
It would be interesting to see what the laptimes would be without the ballast. The SWC intent is to have the cars as even as possible without ballast, with the REWARDS system in place to stop any one driver/team from running away with the championship. With TML's results above it seems like the REWARDS penalty is really just equalizing unequal cars.

And that's honestly not to take anything away from the drivers who are at the top of the points chase right now. As I've said before, most of you podium guys could jump in my car and easily knock a second off my lap time (which Link and q_b have both proven).
 
The Missing Link
Dodge SRT-4 (254 Hp, 1247 kg, 4.907 PWR)
Acura RSX-S (259 Hp, 1066 kg, 4.116 PWR)
Honda Accord Euro-R (300 Hp, 1196 kg, 3.992 PWR)
BMW 330i (277 Hp, 1460 kg, 5.270 PWR)
Mazda Protege (247 Hp, 1229 kg, 4.974 PWR)


The Bimmer also has a real niec powerband, and I was impressed that it brakes as well as it does, I kind of expected to have to brake earlier than the rest of the field, but I think due to the very mild oversteer of RWD it keeps up in braking. The slight oversteer was great, this thing clearly handles better than the rest of the cars I tested, especially from mid-turn to exit.

The Results:
BMW 330i.......(+195 Ballast): 0'26.491 / 0'57.106 / 1'20.219
Mazda Protege..(+200 Ballast): 0'26.515 / 0'57.891 / 1'20.742
Acura RSX-S....(+000 Ballast): 0'26.571 / 0'57.499 / 1'21.162
Dodge SRT-4....(+100 Ballast): 0'26.655 / 0'57.741 / 1'21.563
Accord Euro-R..(+015 Ballast): 0'26.989 / 0'58.049 / 1'21.584
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i knew when i first seen the bmw that it was going to have an advantage. thats why i was quick to get that car. this car is deffently a newbie car cause its very easy to drive. i would say so far that this is one of the best cars i have driven in gt4. this car could easily use another 100 more hp and the chassis wont suffer. its great. to be honest. even though its a heavery car im quite surprized that it has 277 hp. im even more surprized to see the ptw ratio is the way it is. i bought a Protege and tuned it up and did a few laps and i have to say that car is way harder to drive. i rarly use FF cars so its mostly cause im not used to it. if i were driveing any of the FF cars im sure i would be lower in the points.

btw missing link, when you shifted gears in the bmw did you go just to redline or did you go as far as you can before shifting. my point is that i have done testing at the drag strip and found that i gained about a tenth shifting earlyer than i normaly would shift.

anyway even the way the car are at now its been a really fun serise. i hope to do it again sometime.
 
well... first of all teh season is just past halfway (I think).

Second, yes I figured out that I shouldnt let it run through the redline. Like I said I was more doing quick tune, and then guessing, so it's as accurate as it isn't. I did figure out that I should be shifting AT the redline in the Bimmer, but didn't bother testing to shift earlier. I was only running 20-25 laps. Well that's a lie. I ran like 35 in the BMW, it was a fun ride. However that doesn't change that the fastest lap occured on like Lap 7 or 8. And I only ran like 15 in the SRT, mostly because I didn't have to acclimate myself to it, I already knew what I was doing. And I drove it last, so after having driven the RSX-S and the Bimmer, I wasn't really enjoying my car anymore :cry:

My big point, was that the cars aren't equal, but, I have also not yet suggested any changes, or reared my (probably well known) temper about it. I am enjoying the series, and think we should more-or-less leave things the way they are, and just leaving stuff for YLG to consider if he considers running a second season over the winter, or a similar series, or whatever.

It would be nice if we could get more input from other drivers in the series on one of my opinions though. The one regarding SUSPENSION; TRANNY; DOWNFORCE, and I think we can add TIRES to that, not that they are ever a problem. But what I really think is 'fair' is that all cars are given the same mods (for instance;) Full Tranny, Full Suspension, Racing Flywheel, Racing Brakes, Stage 3 Lightening, 1-Way LSD, R3 Racing Medium Tires, Wings (since we are running a series that in real life uses racing modified cars with downforce), and Maybe a Clutch Plate upgrade.

AND THEN... cars get individual modifications (power only) to equalize the field. Which is plainly obvious that we can't just go by the PWR. I would gather that YLG would require quite a bit of help and several testers in equalizing the performance. I know I have tried in the past, and even with a 5 car field its really time consuming and difficult.
 
I agree with you to great extent, TML.

I think a common setup, and one more true to life with the real cars, would be to have all cars share the following:
  • R3 Tires
  • Wing / Splitter
  • Lightweight 3
  • Chassis Stiffening - Roll Cage
  • Full Custom Suspension
  • Sports Brakes
  • LSD 1 or 1.5
  • Full Custom Transmission
While I agree in principle that we should leave power mods as the only variable, I'm not convinced that would allow enough adjustment to equalize the various cars. I think it would be smart to reserve a few items like race flywheel, multi-plate clutches, etc. to fine-tune the performance. Those items are fairly effective but subtle. It would take some testing to see exactly how it worked out.
 
Cool, at least someone is in agreement :) (And yes I am aware not much time has passed since posting all of this :P)

And I can see leaving a handful of non-power mods open since some cars will come stock with crappier parts than others. For instance, I know the RSX will coem stock with mostly the best stuff, and some of the mods wouldn't make much difference. But I can see where something like the Mazda Protege would come with much less and might require things like a clutch plate upgrade.
 
I agree re: wing, tranny, suspension and tires.

I don't think we should be so quick to use Stage 3 Lightweight, though. Leaving extra weight on the car would be another way of evening the cars (rather than just adding more power).
 
True to that, I have thought of that, and I think that the lightening are equal percentages (like 7% each time you do one) so it could work that way also.

It is kind of irritating me that we have an entire week (but that is because I have finally found real free time), so I am just about done with testing and practice on Infineon, yet I feel as though I really shouldn't be putting in my race for another few days.... :p
 
mover of the week award goes to bleurabbit...with that stunning performance, he moved 5 spots up the ladder....GREAT job again bleu.
 
yourlocalgod
mover of the week award goes to bleurabbit...with that stunning performance, he moved 5 spots up the ladder....GREAT job again bleu.
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It doesn't appear that you've updated the points or ballast weights...?
 
sure i have...everyone changed spots in the lineup except for quattro bro...?
 
Did they? It doesn't look it. Regardless, shouldn't I be carrying more than 15 kilos of ballast this week? Also, please note that bleaurabbit had a math error and so the results will shuffle yet again...
 
This is what I came up with after the error. I've been keeping track for my own records.

Code: 
Driver              Vehicle	      Penalty	Weight	Race Points  Total Points
quattro_bro         Mazda Protégé	   15	  MAX	16	      131
Luxy	            Mazda Atenza	   60	  MAX	19	      118
The Missing Link    Dodge Neon SRT-4	   75	  175	20	      116
Bobman              BMW 330i	          -30	  165	12	      113
YourlocalgodofGT3   Mazda Protégé	  -20	  180	13	      113
bhawk776	    Mazda Atenza	   45	   90	18	       97
M31	            BMW 330i	            0	    0	15	       93
Duke	            Honda Accord Euro R    30	   45	17	       88
bleurabbit7	    Ford Focus ST170	  -10	    0	14	       87
DeuceOfClub	    Volkswagen Golf GTi	    0	   20	 0	       86
Boombexus	    Honda Civic Type-R	    0	   85	 0	       78
TheCracker	    Acura RSX Type-S	  -40	    0	11	       56
///M-Spec	    Honda Accord Euro R     0	    0	 0	       46
ls2_297	            Dodge Neon SRT-4	    0	    0	 0	       44
h0ss	            Volkswagen Golf GTi	    0	    0	 0	       44
Bananeman	    Acura RSX Type-S	  -50	    0	10	       35
speedy_samurai	    Volvo S60 T	            0	    0	 0	       31
bogitiman	    Honda Civic Type-R	    0	   30	 0	       28
Crazy300zxGuy	    Ford Focus ST170	    0	    0	 0	       27
 
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