Seasonals Encourage SRF

[UnkaD]

So with the most recent batch of seasonals, with one forcing SRF on and another forcing it off, I have noticed something about the expected times. Over the past couple of months I have been struggling with the GT6 seasonals. With my driving style(I don't like to skid or slide at all) it has been a lot of effort put forth to barely get the gold times as I am stubborn and refuse to use SRF. It took me three hours to beat the Monza gold time by only a 5 hundredths of a second. Needless to say, I immediately quit with that.
Now we have a seasonal that prohibits SRF. I jump in and wouldn't you know it, I get gold on the first lap. I then proceed to undercut the gold time by a full four seconds. I love it! It's the first seasonal that I am repeating after gold to see how I stand in the rankings. I'm currently somewhere around 330ish, which is pretty good for my self-esteem.
On to the Tajima trial, and I can't seem to gold this one. With this car, I don't care too much about seeing a little tire smoke, but at the same time I still don't want to use SRF. It feels the same as quitting to me.

Anyway, the point is that I can pretty much conclude that Polyphony set the event completion times based on an SRF lap when it's available, which sucks for me. I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and get better.

 

[SNAILZ]

Wow, you sound just like me.

I refuse to use SRF, and Tajima E-Runner was a nightmare. Took 3 days to get just .008 seconds under the gold time.
I had to save the fastest lap replay to savor my win.

Yesterday I was around 220 for the FD3S TT leaderboard.

I suggest doing the Peugeot TT as well. SRF is forced on, but use that as an excuse to do it. It's super fun to compare leaderboards when the playing field is even. We need more TTs with forced on/off SRF if PD can't (or won't) install leaderboard filters.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So with the most recent batch of seasonals, with one forcing SRF on and another forcing it off, I have noticed something about the expected times. Over the past couple of months I have been struggling with the GT6 seasonals. With my driving style(I don't like to skid or slide at all) it has been a lot of effort put forth to barely get the gold times as I am stubborn and refuse to use SRF. It took me three hours to beat the Monza gold time by only a 5 hundredths of a second. Needless to say, I immediately quit with that.
Now we have a seasonal that prohibits SRF. I jump in and wouldn't you know it, I get gold on the first lap. I then proceed to undercut the gold time by a full four seconds. I love it! It's the first seasonal that I am repeating after gold to see how I stand in the rankings. I'm currently somewhere around 330ish, which is pretty good for my self-esteem.
On to the Tajima trial, and I can't seem to gold this one. With this car, I don't care too much about seeing a little tire smoke, but at the same time I still don't want to use SRF. It feels the same as quitting to me.

Anyway, the point is that I can pretty much conclude that Polyphony set the event completion times based on an SRF lap when it's available, which sucks for me. I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and get better.

Don't fret man, you'll be a much better driver for it in the end by not using SRF. Takes away all the wonderful work PD did on the physics for GT6 and turns it into an arcade game. Congrats on the 330ish time, that puts you in the top 1%!!

 

[bluecharger]

I wish PD would do away with it (SRF), but introduce more realistic tuning, engine and suspension. Cars come with vastly different geometries, build philosophies, and attachment points. But that's where you remember "it's a video game" and knock off the nonsense. I'd much rather get 5,000th with SRF than 3rd with a tune I copied off someone else. Even if I "tweaked" it a little to feel better about myself.

 

[dc1]

I have it embedded in my head that SRF is "for the kids". I would rather fail to achieve gold than turn it on. I almost gave up on the E-runner lap. I kept at it and had to tweak my driving style (using E-brake). It took me a long time but I posted a miracle lap where everything finally went right. I hope for more challenges like that one and the FXX lap.

 

[Dodzzz]

Nevermind.. mod, please delete.. I misread the first post

Thank you

 

[joeledward]

So with the most recent batch of seasonals, with one forcing SRF on and another forcing it off, I have noticed something about the expected times. Over the past couple of months I have been struggling with the GT6 seasonals. With my driving style(I don't like to skid or slide at all) it has been a lot of effort put forth to barely get the gold times as I am stubborn and refuse to use SRF. It took me three hours to beat the Monza gold time by only a 5 hundredths of a second. Needless to say, I immediately quit with that.
Now we have a seasonal that prohibits SRF. I jump in and wouldn't you know it, I get gold on the first lap. I then proceed to undercut the gold time by a full four seconds. I love it! It's the first seasonal that I am repeating after gold to see how I stand in the rankings. I'm currently somewhere around 330ish, which is pretty good for my self-esteem.
On to the Tajima trial, and I can't seem to gold this one. With this car, I don't care too much about seeing a little tire smoke, but at the same time I still don't want to use SRF. It feels the same as quitting to me.

Anyway, the point is that I can pretty much conclude that Polyphony set the event completion times based on an SRF lap when it's available, which sucks for me. I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and get better.

You know I don't say much on these forums but I am getting sick and tired of hearing all this NO SRF crap.
It is part of the game, you don't have to use it unless it is forced on. I never see any one who relys on it complaining when it is forced off.
So if you don't want it on that is your choice.( unless it is forced on) Very rare though.
But you need to remember the game is not just made for those who have the skills or determination to PLAY without it.
Kudos to you for sticking to your guns and turning off an in game driving assist.
But you need to remember there are other people out there who have also forked out $$$ for this GAME and just enjoy it for what it is.
Remember the game is for all , not just a select few. GT 6 is what it is and should be able to be enjoyed by all whom have purchased it.
I know my enjoyment of the game (and seasonal TTs) would be less if assists were forced off. But I wouldn't complain openly if they were.
So if you enjoy playing the game without assist you have the option don't you?
Why on earth do you want to restrict the millions who enjoy playing the game with assists?
Oh and I have heard all the "its a simulator not a game " arguments, give it a rest eh. @ OP this reply is not entirely directed at your post, so I am not having a direct go at you.
Waiting for the all the pro no SRF abuse to start. (shame really)

 

[lisanorm]

You know I don't say much on these forums but I am getting sick and tired of hearing all this NO SRF crap.
It is part of the game, you don't have to use it unless it is forced on. I never see any one who relys on it complaining when it is forced off.
So if you don't want it on that is your choice.( unless it is forced on) Very rare though.
But you need to remember the game is not just made for those who have the skills or determination to PLAY without it.
Kudos to you for sticking to your guns and turning off an in game driving assist.
But you need to remember there are other people out there who have also forked out $$$ for this GAME and just enjoy it for what it is.
Remember the game is for all , not just a select few. GT 6 is what it is and should be able to be enjoyed by all whom have purchased it.
I know my enjoyment of the game (and seasonal TTs) would be less if assists were forced off. But I wouldn't complain openly if they were.
So if you enjoy playing the game without assist you have the option don't you?
Why on earth do you want to restrict the millions who enjoy playing the game with assists?
Oh and I have heard all the "its a simulator not a game " arguments, give it a rest eh. @ OP this reply is not entirely directed at your post, so I am not having a direct go at you.
Waiting for the all the pro no SRF abuse to start. (shame really)

i am with you on this one,on or off i dont care,just change how i drive it,i will never be an alien i just like to challenge myself for in the end this is the only thing i have to beat....and yes it is a GAME for all ages,all talents to enjoy one way or another,im happy and im sure others are.....and yes i do not complain if it is off i just drive it.....happy apex hunting every one and remember there are far worse things out there in the world........

 

[Hastatus]

...
It is part of the game, you don't have to use it unless it is forced on. I never see any one who relys on it complaining when it is forced off.
...

Some people who complain about SRF often complain for a reason beyond what joeledward is saying. I could care less if SRF is in the game to make it easier for some to play, what I care about is that the gold times are being made more challenging in a way that is biased in favor of SRF and against the real drivers. Some players are indeed being forced to turn on SRF to complete events that they used to be able to complete with SRF off because of the way the gold times are being set.

Think about it this way: for an event that has SRF optional, PD hopes to limit the percentage of people who gold a challenge: e.g. it might be 25%. If 50% are golding an event they make the next times more difficult until they hit the 25% mark again (or whatever mark they are aiming for). This would make sense if there were only one physics model used by everyone, but there are two (SRF-on and SRF-off).

Now if you consider that the number of players using the assist is very high, then the times get set more in favor of SRF users:

A while back I counted very early on the Japanese players who had completed the E-Runner time trial with and without SRF: results were about 2.06% of Japanese gamers had obtained gold with SRF turned off (20 out of 967).

By making the times more challenging for SRF users they are making them near impossible for non SRF users, which also makes SRF users less likely to ever graduate to real driving physics. It also increases the number of SRF users and PD sets even more challenging times.

It is obvious to the good drivers that the FT-1 SRF off challenge was far easier to complete than the FFX or E-Runner challenges with SRF turned off. The level of challange should be stable for the non-SRF users.

If PD set the times only according to the SRF-off drivers then the times to beat for the SRF users would be easier and no one could complain. SRF users who complain that times are too easy would simply have the option to turn off SRF. Players should never be forced to disable "the real driving simulation" aspect of the game when they are in fact really good drivers who invest much time and practice and have succeeded perfectly well in the past: i.e. their driving skills have not deteriorated.

Also there is the fact that those who do not use SRF are the ones for whom the TTs should be created. Those who do not need SRF will have completed everything in the main career and have little new material to play. SRF users can always go back and complete the career with SRF turned off.

PD should never adjust difficulty based on SRF. SRF should only exist to make the game easier for those who choose to use it; it should never make the game irrationally more difficult over time for those who do not.

Those who do not use SRF in the TTs should be increasing in number, not decreasing. They are becoming an oppressed minority.

 

[joeledward]

Some people who complain about SRF often complain for a reason beyond what joeledward is saying. I could care less if SRF is in the game to make it easier for some to play, what I care about is that the gold times are being made more challenging in a way that is biased in favor of SRF and against the real drivers. Some players are indeed being forced to turn on SRF to complete events that they used to be able to complete with SRF off because of the way the gold times are being set.

Think about it this way: for an event that has SRF optional, PD hopes to limit the percentage of people who gold a challenge: e.g. it might be 25%. If 50% are golding an event they make the next times more difficult until they hit the 25% mark again (or whatever mark they are aiming for). This would make sense if there were only one physics model used by everyone, but there are two (SRF-on and SRF-off).

Now if you consider that the number of players using the assist is very high, then the times get set more in favor of SRF users:

A while back I counted very early on the Japanese players who had completed the E-Runner time trial with and without SRF: results were about 2.06% of Japanese gamers had obtained gold with SRF turned off (20 out of 967).

By making the times more challenging for SRF users they are making them near impossible for non SRF users, which also makes SRF users less likely to ever graduate to real driving physics. It also increases the number of SRF users and PD sets even more challenging times.

It is obvious to the good drivers that the FT-1 SRF off challenge was far easier to complete than the FFX or E-Runner challenges with SRF turned off. The level of challange should be stable for the non-SRF users.

If PD set the times only according to the SRF-off drivers then the times to beat for the SRF users would be easier and no one could complain. SRF users who complain that times are too easy would simply have the option to turn off SRF. Players should never be forced to disable "the real driving simulation" aspect of the game when they are in fact really good drivers who invest much time and practice and have succeeded perfectly well in the past: i.e. their driving skills have not deteriorated.

Also there is the fact that those who do not use SRF are the ones for whom the TTs should be created. Those who do not need SRF will have completed everything in the main career and have little new material to play. SRF users can always go back and complete the career with SRF turned off.

PD should never adjust difficulty based on SRF. SRF should only exist to make the game easier for those who choose to use it; it should never make the game irrationally more difficult over time for those who do not.

Those who do not use SRF in the TTs should be increasing in number, not decreasing. They are becoming an oppressed minority.

Also there is the fact that those who do not use SRF are the ones for whom the TTs should be created. (sic) biased in favor of SRF and against the real drivers (sic)
Real drivers? I thought we were all playing the same game?
So you are saying that seasonal TTs should only be there for the minority of GT players?
Sounds eleteist and unfair to me.

 

[bluecharger]

Also there is the fact that those who do not use SRF are the ones for whom the TTs should be created. (sic)
So you are saying that seasonal TTs should only be there for the minority of GT players?
Sounds eleteist and unfair to me.

I think I'm getting what Hastatus is saying, Joel. Bear in mind I use SRF, but don't "rely" on it. What I'm reading is, "if you're using an aid to make the game less challenging, why should the periodic Challenges be graded along those lines?" I hope I have that right. And for what it's worth, I agree. Those who make a "moral imperative" of never touching SRF are a bit silly IMO in forgetting that this is a game, and therefore ALL fake, but PD's goal, IMO, SHOULD be to encourage everyone in the TTs to play on the same field. Maybe they can "fix" their brakes so the age-old exception ABS1 won't be necessary among the "no aids" crowd or anyone else.

 

[joeledward]

I think I'm getting what Hastatus is saying, Joel. Bear in mind I use SRF, but don't "rely" on it. What I'm reading is, "if you're using an aid to make the game less challenging, why should the periodic Challenges be graded along those lines?" I hope I have that right. And for what it's worth, I agree. Those who make a "moral imperative" of never touching SRF are a bit silly IMO in forgetting that this is a game, and therefore ALL fake, but PD's goal, IMO, SHOULD be to encourage everyone in the TTs to play on the same field. Maybe they can "fix" their brakes so the age-old exception ABS1 won't be necessary among the "no aids" crowd or anyone else.

There is just too much negativity and nonsense on these forums.
We should all be friends and just enjoy the game the way we each prefer to play it.
PD has to make the Seasonal events for all skill levels and demographics to enjoy.

Enjoy and don't forget to have fun

 

[bluecharger]

There is just too much negativity and nonsense on these forums.
We should all be friends and just enjoy the game the way we each prefer to play it.
PD has to make the Seasonal events for all skill levels and demographics to enjoy.

Enjoy and don't forget to have fun

But without differing opinions, and the ability to "hash them out", GTP would just be a dry fact factory. Who wants that?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Some people who complain about SRF often complain for a reason beyond what joeledward is saying. I could care less if SRF is in the game to make it easier for some to play, what I care about is that the gold times are being made more challenging in a way that is biased in favor of SRF and against the real drivers. Some players are indeed being forced to turn on SRF to complete events that they used to be able to complete with SRF off because of the way the gold times are being set.

Think about it this way: for an event that has SRF optional, PD hopes to limit the percentage of people who gold a challenge: e.g. it might be 25%. If 50% are golding an event they make the next times more difficult until they hit the 25% mark again (or whatever mark they are aiming for). This would make sense if there were only one physics model used by everyone, but there are two (SRF-on and SRF-off).

Now if you consider that the number of players using the assist is very high, then the times get set more in favor of SRF users:

A while back I counted very early on the Japanese players who had completed the E-Runner time trial with and without SRF: results were about 2.06% of Japanese gamers had obtained gold with SRF turned off (20 out of 967).

By making the times more challenging for SRF users they are making them near impossible for non SRF users, which also makes SRF users less likely to ever graduate to real driving physics. It also increases the number of SRF users and PD sets even more challenging times.

It is obvious to the good drivers that the FT-1 SRF off challenge was far easier to complete than the FFX or E-Runner challenges with SRF turned off. The level of challange should be stable for the non-SRF users.

If PD set the times only according to the SRF-off drivers then the times to beat for the SRF users would be easier and no one could complain. SRF users who complain that times are too easy would simply have the option to turn off SRF. Players should never be forced to disable "the real driving simulation" aspect of the game when they are in fact really good drivers who invest much time and practice and have succeeded perfectly well in the past: i.e. their driving skills have not deteriorated.

Also there is the fact that those who do not use SRF are the ones for whom the TTs should be created. Those who do not need SRF will have completed everything in the main career and have little new material to play. SRF users can always go back and complete the career with SRF turned off.

PD should never adjust difficulty based on SRF. SRF should only exist to make the game easier for those who choose to use it; it should never make the game irrationally more difficult over time for those who do not.

Those who do not use SRF in the TTs should be increasing in number, not decreasing. They are becoming an oppressed minority.

This exactly:tup:👍 Allowing SRF in Seasonals and then designing the quali times around SRF is poor game design for a sim for the reasons you stated.

The answer is easy. Separate and/or sortable Leaderboards. If it were me I'd have two "official" leaderboards. One with and and all aids, and another with either no aids or ABS1 (locked) only. One target time, use whatever assists you want or don't want and then you can sort the leaderboards to your combination and measure yourself against the rest of the world. It was done by a third party for GT5 and it was wonderful.

http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3

 

[ionstriker]

pfff..and while you're at it why not make a separate leaderboard for those who use only tcs or only active steering and bla bla the list can go on.I have to agree with joel.If a good challenge is what you're looking for by turning srf off then why not try getting the best time possible by pushing yourself harder and harder with srf on?isn't it equally demanding?And lets say they did make a separate leaderboard for non srf users,dont you think you would have more or less the same type of leaderboard as compared to that with srf on? at least for the top 100? you know most people dont give a s*** about tuning all they want is to get gold and be done with it so for them srf is pretty useful.And if you think that these seasonals are only geared for srf users then you're wrong.IT's pretty easy to get gold without srf.I don't understand why still people think that these TT's are aimed for srf users.So for those who don't tune and aren't that fast then srf is the way to go. So basically a separate leader board is not necessary

 

[bluecharger]

I have it embedded in my head that SRF is "for the kids". I would rather fail to achieve gold than turn it on. I almost gave up on the E-runner lap. I kept at it and had to tweak my driving style (using E-brake). It took me a long time but I posted a miracle lap where everything finally went right. I hope for more challenges like that one and the FXX lap.

But you'll use someone else's work and effort to crow about TT rankings? Hypocritical, to say the least. At least SRF honestly comes with the game.


Say "NO" to tune sharing.

 

[dc1]

But you'll use someone else's work and effort to crow about TT rankings? Hypocritical, to say the least. At least SRF honestly comes with the game.


Say "NO" to tune sharing.

There wasn't tuning on the E-runner time trial, so I am not sure where you are coming from. I always knew of the e-brake style for drifting and what not, but never used it in a time attack. Where exactly is the hypocritical part?

Edit: Also my non-srf time of 1:00.900 was good for like 18,000th place. Not much to brag about.

 

[bluecharger]

There wasn't tuning on the E-runner time trial, so I am not sure where you are coming from. I always knew of the e-brake style for drifting and what not, but never used it in a time attack. Where exactly is the hypocritical part?

Edit: Also my non-srf time of 1:00.900 was good for like 18,000th place. Not much to brag about.

My post was not limited to the E-Runner TT. People all over this site proclaim superior status because of their refusal to use certain aids, as it makes certain aspects of the game easier, or requires less time or effort tuning. Yet when presented with an actual challenge, run to the nearest tune-guru to accomplish a plug-in-go-faster solution. If you don't see the irony, and yes, hypocrisy, then you're not worth talking to. You can ignore the dualism, but you can't deny it.

 

[dc1]

My post was not limited to the E-Runner TT. People all over this site proclaim superior status because of their refusal to use certain aids, as it makes certain aspects of the game easier, or requires less time or effort tuning. Yet when presented with an actual challenge, run to the nearest tune-guru to accomplish a plug-in-go-faster solution. If you don't see the irony, and yes, hypocrisy, then you're not worth talking to. You can ignore the dualism, but you can't deny it.

Your post was however directed at me, not the people all over this site. That is why I responded. A tune can give a good car, but without driving skill the tune is worthless. Your comment is also why my favorite time trials are the ones where tuning is not allowed. Where tuning is allowed there is no challenge for gold, even a basic understanding of tuning will win it. After that is where the super tuners show up and see how far they can push the envelope. That is not important to me, but I can see your point where the top 50-100 might have a problem with tune sharing. I usually never get into the top 2000.

 

[bluecharger]

Your post was however directed at me, not the people all over this site. That is why I responded. A tune can give a good car, but without driving skill the tune is worthless. Your comment is also why my favorite time trials are the ones where tuning is not allowed. Where tuning is allowed there is no challenge for gold, even a basic understanding of tuning will win it. After that is where the super tuners show up and see how far they can push the envelope. That is not important to me, but I can see your point where the top 50-100 might have a problem with tune sharing. I usually never get into the top 2000.

I think the time has come for PD to throw out the tuning part even though I HATE driving their "stock" tunes and if it allowed an overall more even playing field, the aids as well on Seasonal TTs.
I appreciate your thoughtful and honest post. "I have it embedded in my head that SRF is "for the kids". I would rather fail to achieve gold than turn it on." That was the only reason your post was quoted. You're not the only one on GTP by far who holds that opinion. But I'm 48, no kid, been playing GT since GT2 came out, and I like the way the "cars" respond with SRF most of the time. Maybe the difference is that I don't read all that much into how PD defines SRF and I'm not terribly impressed with how the car naturally feels or the tuning options presented. To me it's just been a really cool game. Best of Luck to you! :Cheers:

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

But you'll use someone else's work and effort to crow about TT rankings? Hypocritical, to say the least. At least SRF honestly comes with the game.


Say "NO" to tune sharing.

How about you just not worry about tune sharing and move on. I share my tunes to help the community which is one of the main reasons we are all here, to help each other and share information. I don't care how much you cry and complain, I am going to keep sharing my tunes so you are just going to have to deal with that fact.

 

[bluecharger]

How about you just not worry about tune sharing and move on. I share my tunes to help the community which is one of the main reasons we are all here, to help each other and share information. I don't care how much you cry and complain, I am going to keep sharing my tunes so you are just going to have to deal with that fact.

I don't think my moving on is your call to make. It's almost shameful that so much hew and cry is posted on GTP about the use of drivers' aids and whining that the game is "too easy" but as soon as an actual challenge comes along, folks flock to the related threads and get the answer handed to them, and no one says boo. I didn't attack you for sharing, and from what I've seen, you're one of the few that post about such things that actually deserve whatever comes with a high final ranking. I asked you to try to see it from the perspective of folks who don't use a cheat sheet, and you've decided to be defensive and dismissive. Not my problem. Cheers.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I don't think my moving on is your call to make. It's almost shameful that so much hew and cry is posted on GTP about the use of drivers' aids and whining that the game is "too easy" but as soon as an actual challenge comes along, folks flock to the related threads and get the answer handed to them, and no one says boo. I didn't attack you for sharing, and from what I've seen, you're one of the few that post about such things that actually deserve whatever comes with a high final ranking. I asked you to try to see it from the perspective of folks who don't use a cheat sheet, and you've decided to be defensive and dismissive. Not my problem. Cheers.

What I meant by "your moving on" is to give up your little crusade about tune sharing because I am not going to stop, no matter how much you kick and scream about it. I highly doubt anyone else is going to stop either just because you have a problem with it. No one says boo about tune sharing because that is the foundation of what this site is built on: a place for the fans of the series to unite to discuss, debate, and share ideas and information, with part of the information being tune sharing. The founder of this site has even made us a Tuning Database just for this purpose. So, if you really have a problem with tune sharing, then I would take it up with him. And no, you didn't attack me personally for tune sharing, but you are speaking out against the very thing I do here, which does make it an indirect attack on me. Therefore, it does involve me which is why I am replying to your posts. And lastly, referring to shared tunes as "cheat sheets" is just plain wrong. Nobody is cheating just because they are using a published tune. Tune sharing as been going on forever and will keep going on as long as there is tuning in the game, there is nothing you can do about it. You are not only wasting your time with this little crusade, but you are fighting a losing battle.

 

[Dalone]

Haven't looked at this thread before, and now, having had a look at just the last few posts can hardly believe what I read.
Bluecharger reckons everyone should have to work out their own tunes here? Have I read that correct?
That would include the young beginner as well as everyone in between them and the tuning guru's.
I've seen some people say some pretty silly things in GTP over the years but that just about takes the cake.
Good luck with that bluecharger but I wouldn't be betting my testimonials on it happening any time soon.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What I meant by "your moving on" is to give up your little crusade about tune sharing because I am not going to stop, no matter how much you kick and scream about it. I highly doubt anyone else is going to stop either just because you have a problem with it. No one says boo about tune sharing because that is the foundation of what this site is built on: a place for the fans of the series to unite to discuss, debate, and share ideas and information, with part of the information being tune sharing. The founder of this site has even made us a Tuning Database just for this purpose. So, if you really have a problem with tune sharing, then I would take it up with him. And no, you didn't attack me personally for tune sharing, but you are speaking out against the very thing I do here, which does make it an indirect attack on me. Therefore, it does involve me which is why I am replying to your posts. And lastly, referring to shared tunes as "cheat sheets" is just plain wrong. Nobody is cheating just because they are using a published tune. Tune sharing as been going on forever and will keep going on as long as there is tuning in the game, there is nothing you can do about it. You are not only wasting your time with this little crusade, but you are fighting a losing battle.

Haven't looked at this thread before, and now, having had a look at just the last few posts can hardly believe what I read.
Bluecharger reckons everyone should have to work out their own tunes here? Have I read that correct?
That would include the young beginner as well as everyone in between them and the tuning guru's.
I've seen some people say some pretty silly things in GTP over the years but that just about takes the cake.
Good luck with that bluecharger but I wouldn't be betting my testimonials on it happening any time soon.

Great job @bluecharger , you've managed to unite @Dalone and @GTP_CargoRatt by being a common enemy. You have no idea what a monumental achievement that is. Well done sir:tup:👍

Uhhh, would you mind putting in a call to Putin and Yatsenyuk and get that whole Ukrainian mess sorted out?

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Great job @bluecharger , you've managed to unite @Dalone and @GTP_CargoRatt by being a common enemy. You have no idea what a monumental achievement that is. Well done sir:tup:👍

Uhhh, would you mind putting in a call to Putin and Yatsenyuk and get that whole Ukrainian mess sorted out?

Everybody has to be a comedian ....Good morning Johnny, I see you're full of piss and vinegar already today.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Everybody has to be a comedian ....Good morning Johnny, I see you're full of piss and vinegar already today.

Heading out to work, thought I'd leave on a witty note

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Haven't looked at this thread before, and now, having had a look at just the last few posts can hardly believe what I read.
Bluecharger reckons everyone should have to work out their own tunes here? Have I read that correct?
That would include the young beginner as well as everyone in between them and the tuning guru's.
I've seen some people say some pretty silly things in GTP over the years but that just about takes the cake.
Good luck with that bluecharger but I wouldn't be betting my testimonials on it happening any time soon.

I don't think you are going to get a reply from him. His ship has sunk.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I don't think you are going to get a reply from him.

Disregard, unintentional double post.

 

[bongoplyr]

As Gertrude Stein said, "An aid is an aid is an aid."