Shadows in GT5

  • Thread starter Thread starter Captain Roh
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Question: Wouldn't it be conceivable that one can use some type of blurring just before the screen is pushed to the visible part of the framebuffer? That way you can enhance the shadows but use lower resolution shadowmaps. And what we are seeing is a non-optimized version of the shadows? Like these two pictures:

Lores shadows:
GRAB_003.JPG

"blurred" shadows:
GRAB_004.JPG
 
The limiting factor for these kinds of shadow maps (assuming they're using Variance Shadow Maps) is typically memory, not strictly computational power. As you get further and further from the camera the amount of memory required to generate/store these types of shadows goes up exponentially. The examples of blocky shadows in self-shading examples (medium distance from camera, low angle between lightsource and cast shadow) are a classic thing VSMs will produce. It's interesting that this seems to be the only shadow technique GT5 is using, at least in races - typically the VSMs would be only one segment of the total shadow process, and you'd have a combination of those, baked in shadows, drop-shadows ('flat' shadow texture) to deal with the situations where VSMs will produce worse results than other techniques. VSMs tend to look best closest to the camera, if you rely on them for mid and long distance you start to see some strange effects and they're worse per-cycle/per memory than other techniques.

Correcting this type of artifact is only something that is really being looked at being fixed for DX11+ cards on PC, where a technique which works (in terms of the end effect) similar to what you see used for ordinary texture filtering can/will be applied to shadow maps as well. So if you consider what you see now as point filter, you'd get the equivalent of anisotropic filtering if the pipeline is set up right to work with DX11.
 
I kept hoping that PD would improve the shadows but it hasn't changed since prologue. GT5's graphics aren't mind blowing any more and they pretty much look standard compared to current games. I'd say if it wasn't for the arcady look the new hot pursuit would look better than GT5. It has dynamic lighting and they still manage to make their shadows look crisp. Oh and the damage looks way better than GT5's.



STY+copy.jpg
 
StogyBear
I kept hoping that PD would improve the shadows but it hasn't changed since prologue. GT5's graphics aren't mind blowing any more and they pretty much look standard compared to current games. I'd say if it wasn't for the arcady look the new hot pursuit would look better than GT5. It has dynamic lighting and they still manage to make their shadows look crisp. Oh and the damage looks way better than GT5's.



STY+copy.jpg
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About the graphics..... lies! GT5 sets the standard for racing game graphics. I can make a game and have the graphics looking awesome in pics but in-game it's normal. PD have retained 'pic graphics' and 'in-game graphics' the same.

About the shadows, you may be right as I don't observe shadows to be honest.

You are 100% correct on damage, but because NFS:HP has arcadey physics, they have to get other things spot on, and damage is one, PD have had to develop physics, tracks ect. but all EA/CG have had to do is add different scenery, tweak grapics & physics, add cars and the fetures. The map layout is the same as Burnout Paradise! Overall, NFS:HP would be a good game but comparing it with GT5 is madness!
 
Also Hot Pursuit doesn't do any self shadowing on the cars, you could still argue that's a good thing though. If you replaced dynamic self shadows with pre baked ones it would look similar to Hot Pursuit, but with much more detailed cars.
Edit: shadows also stay the same from day to night in that video, even when the sun has set there's the same big shadow cast by the car.
 
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Oh trust me I'm not comparing the contents of the two games, just the graphics. I know I'll be over NFS in a week but I'll play GT5 for at least a year lol but as for the graphics, there are things that are done better in GT5 and there are things that are done better in NFS. Both games look amazing where as GT5 was the only car game that looked amazing 4 years ago.

On a side note. PD needs some sharp lawyers like EA games. Their licensing is insane! They pretty much have every modern supercar and if you look closely at the traffic cars they're real life cars too. I spotted a g35 and a nissan pickup. Oh and im not gonna mention porsche, thats another story.
 
StogyBear
Oh trust me I'm not comparing the contents of the two games, just the graphics. I know I'll be over NFS in a week but I'll play GT5 for at least a year lol but as for the graphics, there are things that are done better in GT5 and there are things that are done better in NFS. Both games look amazing where as GT5 was the only car game that looked amazing 4 years ago.

On a side note. PD needs some sharp lawyers like EA games. Their licensing is insane! They pretty much have every modern supercar and if you look closely at the traffic cars they're real life cars too. I spotted a g35 and a nissan pickup. Oh and im not gonna mention porsche, thats another story.
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I really don't want to disappoint you, but the "supposedly" official car list that's been leaked out says otherwise. 66 cars and they failed to get license from Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Lotus, Ferrari, and only got one car from Jaguar, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru. And a good portion of the cars are repeats with just a little variation. Oh...and one more thing, there's no cockpit view, so you can't even compare that between GT5 and NFS.

Anyways, can we get back on topic before this turns into a GT5 vs. NFS: HP thread.
 
When comparing the shadow in HP and GT, we should keep in mind that HP is not 1080p and only running @ 30 frames. GT is running way smoother and looked sharper compare to HP. If you can not tell the difference, then HP might just suit you well, and a lot more other racing games will looked just as good as GT5 to you I bet. To some degree, I will say you are a very lucky kind. :)
I do not think there is any other racing game on the market is producing as high quality picture as GT5 by far. The shadow artefact become obvious when its quality being pushed so hard that is beyond the current generation console's capability. That's my two cents.
 
terminator363


Quite jagged in the cockpit, I've noticed it's more jagged on cars that have curved interiors instead of straight ones....
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Yeah thats what I keep noticing, jaggy shadows in all interiors. It doesnt bother me since I dont like using cockpit view, something about it in videogames makes you feel like you're sitting in the backseat, its not like sitting in a real car, you really cant see much so its just annoying.

But I think if I did use it even though you arent staring at the dash while playing, it would still be noticeable.
 
damn people here are pretty quick on the trigger huh. I was just pointing out that GT5 isn't an all mighty graphical mircale anymore. There are games that look just as good.

This is a game that came out last year and look at the shadows of the interior. They're crisp. I'm no means an NFS fanboy but it's the best example out there.. i wasn't gonna use forza haha

Since this is a very educational thread, can someone explain why NFS shadows look fine and GT5's look so low res. The interior of this M3 look just as detailed as GT5 models. Please dont comment on how crappy the physics are we all know that.

 
StogyBear
Since this is a very educational thread, can someone explain why NFS shadows look fine and GT5's look so low res. The interior of this M3 look just as detailed as GT5 models. Please dont comment on how crappy the physics are we all know that.
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Different Priorities (framerate, resolution, car polycount, etc)
 
StogyBear, that's the PC version so you're going to be able to get higher resolution shadows. Here's the PS3 version of Shift



Notice that the shadows have the same effect as those in GT5.
 
There is a limit to how you use the PS3's capabilities. GT5 manages 1080p, 60fps, photo realistic models, and so it doesn't leave a lot of room for secondary visuals like shadows. Also, when your going down the straight at 200+ km/h, you wouldn't notice bad shadows anyways.
 
xNEVER-ONEx
There is a limit to how you use the PS3's capabilities. GT5 manages 1080p, 60fps, photo realistic models, and so it doesn't leave a lot of room for secondary visuals like shadows. Also, when your going down the straight at 200+ km/h, you wouldn't notice bad shadows anyways.
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Besides that, there's alot more variables in GT5 that affect lighting and shadows. Just the simple day/night cycle and weather already require PD to create a much more complex lighting system. That's if, I'm assuming, GT5's lighting system is designed for dynamic light sources to accommodate day/night transitions and weather. I'm also assuming that it's much easier to build and optimize lighting and shadows when the light source is static in NFS Shift.

Now I'm not an expert in designing video games, so feel free to correct me if I'm totally wrong.
 
Shift does a lot more than you see in the game they shipped :)

shift93.jpg


There are 4 types of shadowing in Shift, all working together, some visible from certain distances, or applied to certain object types, etc. Some are realtime generated, some are static. Static/dynamic is a bit of a misnomer these days - shadows can move and be static, or still and be realtime, it's not something you really pick up on from just looking anymore.
 
terminator363


Quite jagged in the cockpit, I've noticed it's more jagged on cars that have curved interiors instead of straight ones....
Click to expand...


I've been observing GT5's cockpit shadows quite a lot during Sony showing many different builds of game and it seems to me that the quality of shadow textures varies pretty much, let's say, among GT5:P, GamesCom 2009 demo and TGS 2010 demo. It's not changing in a single way (getting better or getting worse), it seems like it's not depend only on the build number, but actual track and car you're driving. GT5:P had some visible jaggies in cockpits, which quite irritated me, but seeing the video you posted and which I was very disappointed by when it was loaded to YT for the first time, I would accept GT5:P shadow quality without hesitate.


Gameplay will be far from this; well, let's settle with that...​

PS3 development is a bunch of compromises (like any other development I guess) and shadow quality textures in cockpits are heavy dilemma: it's right in front of your nose, so you see any single wrong pixel, but on the other hand, when you're familiar with your car, you do not study any single curve on your dashboard and you focus on track only. Then the shadows are realized only by your peripheral vision and the PS3 power should not be wasted on this. I'm curious on how PD will crack this issue. Nor myself can answer it and figure out how to balance it the right way...
 
Did the december paches solve the problem with jagged shadows ?? because this ugly thing's called shadows is terrible :( GT 5 prolouge have nice shadows why gt 5 have ugly ??
 
Szmergiel
Did the december paches solve the problem with jagged shadows ?? because this ugly thing's called shadows is terrible :( GT 5 prolouge have nice shadows why gt 5 have ugly ??
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Not that I have seen - the problem remains as of last night.
 
I wonder if it was a case of, everything was looking gorgeous, shadows and all, and then right near the end they added the final layer of lighting or something and it threw the shadows off. I feel like the shadows were fine and then they added something not too long ago to the final build that messed the shadows up, and they didn't have enough time to sort it out.
 
RedBullRacer
I wonder if it was a case of, everything was looking gorgeous, shadows and all, and then right near the end they added the final layer of lighting or something and it threw the shadows off. I feel like the shadows were fine and then they added something not too long ago to the final build that messed the shadows up, and they didn't have enough time to sort it out.
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WHat ever it is it is pathetic.

The rubbish display during rainy weather is a joke. The pixelated shadows and other "advanced" environment do more to detract from the overall experience than add to it. Everytime I fire up GTHD and GT5P you can see ho wthey where overly ambitious in the ambience feature list. Run LeMans in the rain and itlooks like a 1998 game on N64.
 
RedBullRacer
I wonder if it was a case of, everything was looking gorgeous, shadows and all, and then right near the end they added the final layer of lighting or something and it threw the shadows off. I feel like the shadows were fine and then they added something not too long ago to the final build that messed the shadows up, and they didn't have enough time to sort it out.
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I think that the shadows are so buggy because they had to reduce their quality to save some fps, try to reduce the shadow quality or shadow resolution in a pc game to see the same kind of stuff....
 
a lot of members have alluded to the fact that because of the high framerate and the high resolution, we are seeing blocky shadows.

would this be solved by simply tuning down the resolution? to 720p perhaps? I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but i have no idea about the technical jargon used in this thread.
 
This is a proper example of how to discuss some issues in the game. I wish all of the perceived/real issues are discussed in this manner.
 
guys, have you noticed that on photomode the shadows are just fine? i think this reduces the chances that they will fix up this in gameplay, just cause enviroment is bigger and there's so much cars in a race, for example...
 
What definitely is NOT fine in photomode is the smoke jaggies. I am absolutely baffled about why this is. In Photomode there's no frames-per-second rate to keep up with so I have no idea why the photo's don't render in the highest possible quality.
 

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